Progress pics of the new 'Force 9' differential, it's getting there !

[ashtrans]

Hi All,

We have for some time been working on a new super HD axle.

The diff is being made to fit the rover axle casing so you bolt on the diff, new shafts, open knuckles, CV's, stub axles, modified hubs and drive flanges. We still have some work to do but I thought I would post a few pics of the diff unit.

the diff spec is :

Ford 9" hypoid ring and pinion
High Pinion
4.11 ratio
ARB 35 spline
Nodular Iron housing (this prototype is ali)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/683.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/684.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/685.jpg

Dave

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk)

[dullbird]

nice work dave ;)

[Slunnie]

Dave, this is really exciting and I think that many may not understand the significance of your work here except for those that use, abuse and break things. I absolutely take my hat off to your work - something I think I may have read a snippet about on Pirate4x4 when talked about in conjunction with the different work that Keith (Revor) was doing in axle development.

As I understand how you've done it, the Hi9 bolts into a Rover housing and then add 35 spline axles and ends? Also what uni pattern does it take? What knuckles and CV's do you use and does the Hi9 also work for a rear application?

[Slunnie]

Dave, the more look at that the more I think wow!!!!

The 9" has a massive hypoid offset on it and the pinion has a huge support on the end of it to reduce flexing. The hemisphere is super braced also to prevent flex in the crownwheel. 35 spline axles is well into Dana60 territory. What is your expected failure point for it (which would take one absolute mumma of a force through it!) What size tyre would you expect it to run aswell - I'm sort of guessing something around 40-42" with a beating.

[Psimpson7]

As always, looks / sounds awesome Dave!!

[Disco_owner]

Great Work Dave , love it .Q: In your Design is there provisions made from end user to Lock both axles together.

[ashtrans]

Dave, this is really exciting and I think that many may not understand the significance of your work here except for those that use, abuse and break things. I absolutely take my hat off to your work - something I think I may have read a snippet about on Pirate4x4 when talked about in conjunction with the different work that Keith (Revor) was doing in axle development.

As I understand how you've done it, the Hi9 bolts into a Rover housing and then add 35 spline axles and ends? Also what uni pattern does it take? What knuckles and CV's do you use and does the Hi9 also work for a rear application?

remove the swivel balls, replace with new fabricated open knuckles, fit MASSIVE Dana 60 heavy Duty CV's, fit new stub axles, bore existing hubs to take new bearings to fit the new stub axle bearings, drill and tap an extra 5 holes for the new 35 spline outer drive flange.

Yes it fit the rear, new diff, shafts, stubs, modify hub like above, new drive flanges.


Dave, the more look at that the more I think wow!!!!

The 9" has a massive hypoid offset on it and the pinion has a huge support on the end of it to reduce flexing. The hemisphere is super braced also to prevent flex in the crownwheel. 35 spline axles is well into Dana60 territory. What is your expected failure point for it (which would take one absolute mumma of a force through it!) What size tyre would you expect it to run aswell - I'm sort of guessing something around 40-42" with a beating.

it's not shown on the prototype but the casing is also being made so it can be 'pegged' as well, maybe overkill seeing as you have the pinion end support bearing but as we are making the housing we may as well do it.

these will be on a par with heavy duty D60 axles, I think 40-42's will be fine all day, only 2 of these D60 HD CV's have ever broken and these were on a US rock crawler with 54's !

another application we are looking at is the 110 rear,

One of the reasons the Salisbury was dropped was the tubes came out the diff housing on very heavy 110's, the beam axle takes the weight better but the diff is obviously weaker and people are having problems with the TBB000270 / P38 diff. We are looking at making this 'Force 9' diff a bolt in replacement ie with the 24 spline shafts or you can upgrade the shafts Etc to 35 spline if required.

Thanks for your enthusiasm, we have spent alot of time and money on this already and are very excited by it.

Dave

[ashtrans]

Great Work Dave , love it .Q: In your Design is there provisions made from end user to Lock both axles together.

by axles do you mean what I would call the halfshafts ?

if so, it has an ARB locking diff,

Dave

[slug_burner]

Dave,

What is your target price on these units?

[rick130]

Dave, can I make a suggestion ?
You've probably already addressed this, but seeing as you you are going to the trouble of new knuckles, can you make them an inch or two longer than OE to give a wider track and better steering lock ?
The Nissan Patrol front ends that are used to replace the Rover assembly here are a touch wider from the radius rods out and it makes a hell of a difference in steering lock (and obviously stability)

I know that when we went from a GQ to a GU Patrol the tighter steering was very much appreciated, and it was all from a slightly wider track.

It's looking very good.

[Psimpson7]

Yes Dave, axles over here are halfshafts back home!

[Slunnie]

axles and driveshaft terminology causes so much confusion.

I find when teaching this stuff that it was a lot clearer to use
Halfshafts
Propshafts
Axle housing

and not use driveshaft at all.

The bit that still spins everybody out is commonly defining
3rd member
Centre

[Slunnie]

Dave, can I make a suggestion ?
You've probably already addressed this, but seeing as you you are going to the trouble of new knuckles, can you make them an inch or two longer than OE to give a wider track and better steering lock ?
The Nissan Patrol front ends that are used to replace the Rover assembly here are a touch wider from the radius rods out and it makes a hell of a difference in steering lock (and obviously stability)

I know that when we went from a GQ to a GU Patrol the tighter steering was very much appreciated, and it was all from a slightly wider track.

It's looking very good.

That is such a good point. Almost everybody who is running over 33" is offsetting rims etc to get clearance which has scrub radius implications etc.

Edit: this is from Progress pics of the new 'Force 9' differential - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=38310)


The knuckles are tack welded and looking good, will post photos next week, we will initially be adding 40mm each side to the width/track,


Also, will the full fitment be suitable for Disco2 and P38 axles as well as Rover type axles? The other question is what range of ratios will suit the housing?

[Grimace]

ORSUM... Might upgrade to this setup if the price is right! Keen to test out the full kit (front and rear).

[mcrover]

I'd just be interested in the wider track and stronger axles.

With the touring crowd who more run 31" to 33" rubber, and still fit Maxi axles etc for reliability, this would be an excellent opertunity to just replace axels, CV's and knuckels and get the extra needed to not scrub and not having to off set rims which puts added load on wheel bearings.

The centre is awsome though Dave, great idea for the slightly more serious 4wd nuts out there :p

[2stroke]

Looks to me like there's a new ultimate driveline for rovers!

[Slunnie]

I'd just be interested in the wider track and stronger axles.

With the touring crowd who more run 31" to 33" rubber, and still fit Maxi axles etc for reliability, this would be an excellent opertunity to just replace axels, CV's and knuckels and get the extra needed to not scrub and not having to off set rims which puts added load on wheel bearings.

The centre is awsome though Dave, great idea for the slightly more serious 4wd nuts out there :p
I'm not sure that its suitable for that type of application??? This will be waaaaaaaay overkill for a Rover diff and a lot more expensive than fitting Maxidrive axles and offset rims.The front is a big operation.

[rick130]

I'm not sure that its suitable for that type of application??? This will be waaaaaaaay overkill for a Rover diff and a lot more expensive than fitting Maxidrive axles and offset rims.The front is a big operation.

Yep, it'll be aimed at the 35" + tyre crowd, mainly the comp fella's and real hardcore weekend wariors.
The complete kit will be $$$ with all those custom bits. It'll have to be for Ashcrofts to get the development $ back.

[rick130]

<snip>

this would be an excellent opertunity to just replace axels, CV's and knuckels and get the extra needed to not scrub and not having to off set rims which puts added load on wheel bearings.

<snip>

This could be achieved relatively easily by using a spacer between the diff housing and swivel housing, axle length to match and drag link and tie rod to suit.

[Slunnie]

This could be achieved relatively easily by using a spacer between the diff housing and swivel housing, axle length to match and drag link and tie rod to suit.
Its surprising that nobody has ever manufactured that setup. I'm sure it will sell.

[ashtrans]

Hi,

Slug Burner, no idea on price yet, they won't be cheap but the idea is they are the last axle you buy and you can beat on them all day every day with 40's.

Rick130, each corner will be + 40mm and yes it's aimed at those with 35" +.

Slunnie, the full 35 spline kit will be made to fit the Defender 90 late type 300 and TD5 axles as these are the usual starting point for the competition trucks who we see as the main customer but if we make the 24 spline version diff it will fit the Disco 2 and P38 but the diff only not the shafts, cv's Etc. Possibly we can develop the 35 spline kit for the Disco 2 in the future but I very much doubt it for the P38.

Thanks for all your questions and positive feedback, reassuring after all the time and money we have put into this.

Dave

[rick130]

Dave has since loaded pictures of the swivels/knuckles up on Pirate Progress pics of the new 'Force 9' differential, it's getting there ! - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php't=761100)

[mcrover]

This could be achieved relatively easily by using a spacer between the diff housing and swivel housing, axle length to match and drag link and tie rod to suit.

Thats at I was thinking that part of it was.

Would be good :D

[isuzurover]

Awesome work Dave!

Might have to change my plans for a Sals/D60 front...

Any plans to offer rear steer as well?

[ashtrans]

Hi Guys,

we have been working on this flat out and have learnt loads,

we have incorporated some neat design features,

in Europe after a wet weekend competing it's usual to have to strip the hubs to get the water out and regrease etc. we have double drilled the drive flanges so you have 10 bolts but 2 of them, opposite eachother, are drilled with a gallery through the hub to the gap between the wheel bearings, the idea being you remove both screws, blast grease down one with a pneumatic grease gun until it comes out clean from the other hole, put the bolts back in, job done.

front and rear hubs are designed so you can fit twin brake calipers,

the diff housings are on the 3rd prototype and are very near the final build, ARB's are modified and ready to fit, shafts and CV's are ready.

we are aiming to have a pair of axles on display at the Billing show in the UK in July then will fit then on a vehicle to go to the Portugese Rainforest Challenge for their first test.

few update photos,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/1290.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/1291.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/1292.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/1293.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/1294.jpg

it's slow process but it's definatly getting there,

we are now on the 4th prototype knuckle and it looks nice,
these newer knuckle inners are solid steel, the outers are solid flange and twin caliper flanges with fabricated sides,

seal and needle roller bearings on CV

we make 4 mods to the 9" ARB RD99,

1) to fit to our new housing we have to machine the ARB on the non crown wheel side to pull the journal bearing in closer to the centre,

the other 3 mods are to improve the poor dog clutch engagement,

2) there are 12 small but strong disengagement springs, this is a huge force for the pneumatic piston to overcome on engagement, we remove 4.

3) the dog clutch only has 2.5mm engagement, we machine it to add 1mm more.

4) the internal air feed holes are 1mm, we open these up to 1.5mm.

not tested any of the above yet but hopefully it will improve the problems the 9" ARB suffers from.

[Slunnie]

Dave thats stunning work which you have going on there. Chatting to Daniel Bongard at ARB, he was saying that they have moved to common parts etc with the new range of locker part numbers which allowed side gear interchangability in a completely different application which I am looking at. I'm not sure if this is the case with the RD99 but are you looking to spec the diff to allow running Longfield Toyota or Ashcroft CV's and axles, and/or uprating the halfshafts/CV's in the Ashcroft setup. Just thinking of those that want to move to a stronger diff and/or a higher pinion but not necessarily needing King of the Hammers type 1.5" axle and knuckle strength or the fabrication that requires structural members and jigging?

[Blknight.aus]

Nice work.

while your at it can you look into providing about 3 6x.75mm 8mm deep threaded holes on both sides of both the axle housing and the steering frame so that a flat plate bracket can be made up to secure a wading bracket.

The biggest hassle I've had with the jeep type front axle is the inside bearing seal getting lunched and the inner bearing getting contaminated from mud/water.

[ashtrans]

Hi Slunnie,

yes I have noticed this already,

so you can swap the side gears to 24 spline and the 9" diff will be a direct replacement for the later 110 P38 type diff

Hi Blknight,

do you mean the seal where the shaft comes out the axle tube or the seal where the CV stub enters the knuckle outer,

Dave