Sleeving trailing arms? [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

rick130

17th February 2009, 10:23 PM

I'm guessing it's just welding flash as the arms look to me to be friction welded, so I doubt very much grinding or turning the flash off will compromise them structurally. Friction Welding - FPE (http://www.fpe.co.uk/friction2.htm) Thompson Friction Welding - Innovators in Friction Welding (http://www.thompson-friction-welding.co.uk/about.html)

I was just going to do the same thing, got as far as the neighbours lathe to turn it off and that's where my spare arm has sat for three months or so.
(I bought the hollow bar to sleeve them about three years ago :blush:)

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 10:28 PM

Hi all:)
I'm thinking of sleeving the trailing arms on my d1 to strengthen them.
One question?
Is it alright to grind off the little ring things on each end of the arm?
It would be hard to sleeve them with this still there:angel:
If you don't know what i'm talking about i'll have to get a pic:)

CHEERS TIM.
Tim can you just slide the sleeve on from the chassis end rather than the axle end? If you can do it that way then it will leave a stronger arm and not need fabrication.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/812.jpg

long stroke

17th February 2009, 10:29 PM

I'm guessing it's just welding flash as the arms look to me to be friction welded, so I doubt very much grinding or turning the flash off will compromise them structurally. Friction Welding - FPE (http://www.fpe.co.uk/friction2.htm)

I was just going to do the same thing, got as far as the neighbours lathe to turn it off and that's where my spare arm has sat for three months or so.
(I bought the hollow bar to sleeve them about three years ago :blush:)

Thanks Rick!!!
I should use the neighbours lathe to, but prefere the grinder:twisted:

CHEERS TIM.

long stroke

17th February 2009, 10:32 PM

Tim can you just slide the sleeve on from the chassis end rather than the axle end? If you can do it that way then it will leave a stronger arm and not need fabrication.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/812.jpg

Yeah thats what i plan to do but there are these 2 little ring things i was un shore about;)
Who bent that arm:eek:
It doesn't seem to have the rings i'm talking about;)

CHEERS TIM.

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 10:36 PM

ah ok. They bend a lot when loaded up - Tusker did this one. This one was an aftermarket one which will probably explain the no ring.

rick130

17th February 2009, 10:37 PM

During the welding process, depending on the method being used, small pieces of the "plastic" metal will be forced out of the working mass in rippled sheets of metal known as "flash". It is believed that the flash carries away debris and dirt.

From here Friction welding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_welding)

long stroke

17th February 2009, 10:40 PM

From here Friction welding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_welding)

That explaines it!!

hook

17th February 2009, 10:42 PM

rick130

17th February 2009, 10:48 PM

ah ok. They bend a lot when loaded up - Tusker did this one. This one was an aftermarket one which will probably explain the no ring.

I towed a Prado out of a culvert one day that had one that shape :D
One of the local blokes did the same thing to his coil rear Patrol. He's sporting nice pretty HD blue ones these days :D

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 10:51 PM

I towed a Prado out of a culvert one day that had one that shape :D
One of the local blokes did the same thing to his coil rear Patrol. He's sporting nice pretty HD blue ones these days :D
I thnk the 3rds are good! We had this run where there were heaps bent like that. Sometimes they take a beating and other times it takes nothing to fold them up.

rick130

17th February 2009, 10:53 PM

Your as bad as me.:D
Years not months to make things.:mad:

And I was only thinking today that I should get the key to his shed off his Mum (he works down the valley during the week and she lives over the road) and finish the damn things off while the weather is crap.

I was going to glue mine on with some 3M Scotchweld structural adhesive I have. It's usually used for gluing aircraft and racecar tubs together.
I can then honestly say they haven't been welded, and it also means I don't have to make a jig up to weld them too.

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 10:55 PM

And I was only thinking today that I should get the key to his shed off his Mum (he works down the valley during the week and she lives over the road) and finish the damn things off while the weather is crap.

I was going to glue mine on with some 3M Scotchweld structural adhesive I have. It's usually used for gluing aircraft and racecar tubs together.
I can then honestly say they haven't been welded, and it also means I don't have to make a jig up to weld them too.
Just slip them on and tack them, they'll be right. :D

rick130

17th February 2009, 10:59 PM

They sure as hell won't bend, it's 40.5mm OD bar :D

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 11:22 PM

I agree. I reckon they need to be made so that you can land on them and not have them bend. These ones I made that were 900mm IIRC so on the long side, but the stock was 50x12.5. I'm a big believer in building things that dont break. Likewise I'm not a fan of cranking suspension parts - they're also just stress points to me that are not necessary.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/04/1066.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/511.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/512.jpg

long stroke

17th February 2009, 11:29 PM

Thats more like it:cool:

long stroke

17th February 2009, 11:30 PM

This is the ring thing i was talking about....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/510.jpg

TIM.

PAT303

17th February 2009, 11:30 PM

So I take it these arms are all legal?.What would happen after a crash when people find out the things holding your diffs in were made at home in your shed?. Pat

long stroke

17th February 2009, 11:32 PM

So I take it these arms are all legal?.What would happen after a crash when people find out the things holding your diffs in were made at home in your shed?. Pat

To tell you the truth it doesn't bother me;)

Slunnie

17th February 2009, 11:35 PM

So I take it these arms are all legal?.What would happen after a crash when people find out the things holding your diffs in were made at home in your shed?. Pat
There is no reason for them to not be legal, they are not welded cast and the welding process used was appropriate for mild steel, they are not Cro-mo alloys that require post heat treatment etc. They were also made in a workshop, not a shed and I work metal as a profession. All moot anyway as they were not used on a road vehicle.

Pedro_The_Swift

18th February 2009, 06:54 AM

could you heat shrink them on?,,

I mean if you have to do lathe work already---;)

rovercare

18th February 2009, 07:24 AM

So I take it these arms are all legal?.What would happen after a crash when people find out the things holding your diffs in were made at home in your shed?. Pat

Nothing unless they caused the accident:p

Vern

18th February 2009, 07:33 AM

i sleeved mine by getting some 3 or 4 mm thick tube that slid nicely over those welds, then drilled 3 holes in them and pumped it full of silicon.
Rangie spares advised me on this as engineers don't like welding on suspension parts.
pretty simple:)

long stroke

18th February 2009, 08:03 AM

rick130

18th February 2009, 08:26 AM

So I take it these arms are all legal?.What would happen after a crash when people find out the things holding your diffs in were made at home in your shed?. Pat

That's why I was going to glue mine.
It's just that the hollow bar I have means I have to turn off the weld flash. No biggie, it does nothing structurally.
I've seen too many bent arms, including my own (which could at least be straightened)

There is an aircraft certified welder 30km away and I was going to get him to weld them to cover my arse, but even those sort of blokes don't like to weld suspension bits.
I've also been advised to do the silicon thing like Vern did, but I have the adhesive in the freezer so.....

rick130

18th February 2009, 08:38 AM

I was just going to tack weld them on;)
Why isn't it good to weld them?:angel:

TIM.

It isn't that it's not good, welding is an excellent joint process, but the RTA frowns on it big time with suspension components, unless it comes from the factory like that.
Back in the dark ages they required a certified welder and the joint x-rayed :rolleyes: Don't know if they still do, but they sure as hell don't get that down the production line.
But that's the rules, otherwise you'd have every Tom, Dick or Harry with a stick or cheap mig welder fabbing bits

The way the laws and litigation is these days, engineering companies are even scared to weld cracked chassis on 4x4's.

PAT303

18th February 2009, 09:58 AM

Nothing unless they caused the accident:p

Yeh right.Don't be in an accident rovercare,you would be taken to the cleaners.The reason people make thier own parts is because of cost,the reason parts cost so much is because of rules and regulations.It didn't cause the accident?,YOU would have to prove it didn't,not the other way round. Pat

rovercare

18th February 2009, 10:02 AM

Yeh right.Don't be in an accident rovercare,you would be taken to the cleaners.The reason people make thier own parts is because of cost,the reason parts cost so much is because of rules and regulations.It didn't cause the accident?,YOU would have to prove it didn't,not the other way round. Pat

Ever been involved in an enquiry of a motor vehicle accident ending up in death? with the vehicle being modified?

Pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding

long stroke

18th February 2009, 04:18 PM

It isn't that it's not good, welding is an excellent joint process, but the RTA frowns on it big time with suspension components, unless it comes from the factory like that.
Back in the dark ages they required a certified welder and the joint x-rayed :rolleyes: Don't know if they still do, but they sure as hell don't get that down the production line.
But that's the rules, otherwise you'd have every Tom, Dick or Harry with a stick or cheap mig welder fabbing bits

The way the laws and litigation is these days, engineering companies are even scared to weld cracked chassis on 4x4's.

I might just try find a realy tight fitting tube and bash it on with a FBH:twisted:
Or weld it and paint it up realy nice so they don't notice:eek:

TIM.

PAT303

18th February 2009, 05:31 PM

Ever been involved in an enquiry of a motor vehicle accident ending up in death? with the vehicle being modified?

Pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding

No,never been in a fatality but have been in two accidents,neither my fault were both cars were inspected and and proceedings were halted until a writen RWC report was supplied. Pat

Slunnie

18th February 2009, 05:54 PM

Suspension

Besides assuring a comfortable ride, a vehicle’s suspension system controls wheel movement for handling and road
holding. Manufacturers conduct extensive test programs to develop suitable suspension settings. Adjustments, such
as lowering the vehicle, can upset the suspension characteristics and cause unpredictable handling. Generally, roll
stabilizer bars, axle locating rods, upgraded shock absorbers or upgraded springs may be used provided they are
suitable for the vehicle and are properly fitted. However, the following suspension modifications are not acceptable:

�� Welding forged components such as stub axles or control arms.

�� Fitting longer, non-standard shackles to leaf springs.

�� Fitting any additional components or altering the suspension so that the wheels or tyres may contact any
component under the full range of suspension and steering travel.

�� Fitting any additional components or altering the suspension ride height so that any part of the vehicle other
than a wheel or tyre can contact the road in the event of a tyre deflation.
If major changes to the suspension (such as substitution of a non standard front cross member) are carried out, they
should be done under the strict guidance of an engineering signatory.

This is at least NSW's guidelines and the lower links are not forged. There are a lot of companies that manufacture these parts for the aftermarket industry and they are pretty much all welded at the each end. Welding is not some type of thing that magically means there will be a failure, and a shop front (or lack of) doesn't mean it will be a good or bad product. I think most would be horrified to see the welding process that is used to manufacture a regular car body, but it works quite well.

long stroke

18th February 2009, 06:24 PM

Can't see whats wrong with a couple of tack welds;)

Slunnie

18th February 2009, 06:37 PM

Can't see whats wrong with a couple of tack welds;)
They can create stress raisers and precipitate cracks, but if it were my car I would notch the end down to suit the axle bush and then machine (or grind) a taper down and then just 2 tacks onto the ring that holds the axle bush to stop the sleeve from moving. If were siliconed in place then it would do the same thing without the welds - its just there to hold a sleeve which is to prevent any bending.

long stroke

18th February 2009, 06:56 PM

They can create stress raisers and precipitate cracks, but if it were my car I would notch the end down to suit the axle bush and then machine (or grind) a taper down and then just 2 tacks onto the ring that holds the axle bush to stop the sleeve from moving. If were siliconed in place then it would do the same thing without the welds - its just there to hold a sleeve which is to prevent any bending.

Ok Thanks Slunnie:)
I'll see what happens.

TIM.

rovercare

18th February 2009, 07:46 PM

No,never been in a fatality but have been in two accidents,neither my fault were both cars were inspected and and proceedings were halted until a writen RWC report was supplied. Pat

What state? hard to produce a certificate of roadworthiness on a bent vehicle;)

PAT303

18th February 2009, 08:33 PM

rovercare

18th February 2009, 08:40 PM

I'm not getting into a pi&&ing contest rovercare. Pat

Well put it away then:p:D

PAT303

18th February 2009, 08:46 PM

Where having a beer one day,your shout. Pat

Slunnie

18th February 2009, 08:49 PM

I'm not getting into a pi&&ing contest rovercare,it is not allowed and you will be found at fault.We on this forum have a certain amount of duty of care,I think it is wrong to give people advice about things that make thier vehicle unroadworthy or unsafe.The inspections were done in both cases to show any variations to the pink slip RWC at the last rego check.NSW is far ahead than other states on this. Pat
I still haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this type or modification or the links that I manufactured would in any way make the car somehow unroadworthy as suggested. These things are manufactured regularly.

rick130

18th February 2009, 09:07 PM

I still haven't seen any evidence to suggest that this type or modification or the links that I manufactured would in any way make the car somehow unroadworthy as suggested. These things are manufactured regularly.

If major changes to the suspension (such as substitution of a non standard front cross member) are carried out, they
should be done under the strict guidance of an engineering signatory.

It could be argued that a newly fabricated suspension arm would constitute a visit to an engineer, or at least that's always been my understanding, but I might be wrong too.
Also, don't the companies making components have to submit or certify that whatever it is they are making meets relevant standards regarding fabrication and welding ?

Hmm, saying that, my HD tied rod and drag link could be illegal too, but it isn't welded....... :confused::confused:

Oh poop, this is getting like the tubes/vs tubeless thread and I was one of the naughty boys in that one :angel:

rovercare

18th February 2009, 09:16 PM

It could be argued that a newly fabricated suspension arm would constitute a visit to an engineer, or at least that's always been my understanding, but I might be wrong too.
Also, don't the companies making components have to submit or certify that whatever it is they are making meets relevant standards regarding fabrication and welding ?

Hmm, saying that, my HD tied rod and drag link could be illegal too, but it isn't welded....... :confused::confused:

Oh poop, this is getting like the tubes/vs tubeless thread and I was one of the naughty boys in that one :angel:

Correct when it turns to poo, the component/componetry has to be at fault, I stored the vehicle a mate, whom was a passenger, died in, incidently a modified range rover and the vehicle was inspected, I won't nor wish to get into the details on a public board, but having been through the details, being one that had done alot of the mods, I can attest, what I am saying has some merit

long stroke

4th March 2009, 09:15 PM

Finaly got around to getting some steel:angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1269.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1270.jpg

I ended up cutting a little slot in each end for a little tack weld.
Then i siliconed it up and tomorrow i will spray it:)

And here are my new off-set/angled trailing arm bushes to suit the 3" lift.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1271.jpg

CHEERS TIM.

Slunnie

4th March 2009, 10:14 PM

Very nice! :D

long stroke

5th March 2009, 06:32 PM

And a coat of paint...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1239.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1240.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1241.jpg

CHEERS TIM.

long stroke

15th March 2009, 10:35 PM

Finally got around to finishing them:angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/841.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/842.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/843.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/844.jpg

The angled/off-set bushes from LR Automotive are perfect, highly recomend them!!

CHEERS TIM.