Stoves - Gas/electric

[Slunnie]

I'm sorry that this isn't terribly Rover specific, but....


I'm just about to start building a house and one of the many dilelmas is what stove to install.

The area doesn't have gas, but I thought that people generally used to think that gas was the way to cook as it had instant control.

Is this still the case in comparison to ceramic cooktops? and is it worth having bottle put onto the house just for gas cooking? ok, and maybe the bbq also.

I guess this brings another question, has induction stoves now made gas cooking obsolete now?

[Blknight.aus]

I prefer a gas stove and an electric oven....

if you run out of gas you can still use the oven, if the electricity goes down you can use the stove.

I think gas offers better control over most electric stovetops.

[Slunnie]

Thats a really good point Dave! Its out of town also, so power outages may not be fixed as quickly as more urban places either.

[B92 8NW]

Thats a really good point Dave! Its out of town also, so power outages may not be fixed as quickly as more urban places either.

If it's a country house it has to be an AGA / Rayburn.

[Slunnie]

If it's a country house it has to be an AGA / Rayburn.
I had to look up what they were!

They look cool and remind me a lot of the Falcon stoves also in their styling. Although the house is in the country it's a more contemporary design. It does have a wood heater, but I'm not sure if I want to be splitting to cook meals aswell. :D

[V8Ian]

bottle put onto the house just for gas cooking? ok, and maybe the bbq also.

And hot water.
Suppliers will give you two bottles. When one runs out change over bottles and order a refill.

[Slunnie]

And hot water.
Suppliers will give you two bottles. When one runs out change over bottles and order a refill.
Hi Ian, thanks for this. That'll be good running the 2 bottles so that there is no down time on the stove. The HWS is a solar with electric boost, though it'd be interesting to know if they do gas instant to top up the temps. As I understood it the gas HWS's chop through a bit of gas and its not all that economical to use on bottle.

[Xtreme]

You won't find a lot of choice in gas ovens these days. Most manufacturers of gas cook tops match them up with electric ovens.

Forget about topping up the temp of your solar HWS with bottled gas. The only way I may consider bottled gas for hot water would be to use one of the instantaneous gas heaters - that way you are not heating stored water which you may not need.

Roger

[Pedro_The_Swift]

have you gone here?
http://theinductionsite.com/proandcon.shtml

[Pedro_The_Swift]

If it's a country house it has to be an AGA / Rayburn.


oh yea,,

QLD is full of 'em,,,


:whistling:

[rick130]

Go the gas mate, as the other fella's have said, it's a boon when the power goes down and we're pretty used to having blackouts around here.

The main thing is control, I much prefer gas, and the bottles last for a long time, but they are relatively exxy. We're paying around $100/bottle these days.
We have an Allenzi which is gas/gas (I stipulated this when SWMBO went to pick it up ) but it has an electric grill :confused:

As fo the gas HWS using a bit, I disagree.
We used to use a gas HWS on the farm and I found it very economical, and we use gas for the stables HWS (Dux) but it isn't being hammered eveyday, but when the weather gets cooler two to three horses a day are getting hot showers and the bottles last a fair while, at a guess six months at least.

<edit> What are you doing for water ?
Is town water available ?
If not, and you have a hill I'd seriously consider gravity feeding the house and using 3/4" pipe for the internal plumbing.
The bulk of our water here is river water which I pump up into a tank then gravity feed the house with. It's only about a 4m fall, but it's enough to ensure a reasonable shower, etc.
The beauty is that when the powers down we still have water.
Our soft water (rain water) is a small Grundfoss pressure pump to the kitchen and bathroom sink (cold only)
Having copped too many blackouts where we couldn't bathe :eek: a gravity feed system was the top of my list when we bought this place. I haven't entirely finished the plumbing yet, but it will be able to be switched between both systems at any time, eg. if we are having floods and we can't pump out of the river. (although the 5,000 gallon tank generally lasts three to four weeks, and that's including watering a lot of trees and shrubs )

[Slunnie]

have you gone here?
http://theinductionsite.com/proandcon.shtml
Thanks for this! I've skimmed it, but I'll sit down and have a proper read tonight. Thats an interesting article!

[Slunnie]

Hi Rick thats really interesting with the gas HWS, and I was expecting it to be a lot dearer than that. I've just pulled a current bill and checked the meter box to see what its currently costing me for electric HW and I'm at about $45 per 1/4. For the 6 months, how many bottles would you be using? As you've said (?) if the power goes down then there is no HWS even if it is currently spec'd in as a solar setup, but I think it may also need to pump up to the panels. Pumping is a whole issue in itself as that also runs on electric. The house is on tank (no town water), but its also near the top of a hill. The tank I think has to be down of the house so the gutters fill it, but the bore tank (10k gal) is as high as I can get it. The bore tank will be connected to the house if the rainwater tank goes dry, and that may be a blackout option too which I hadn't thought about, but the water is scaley.

Sounds like I should be arranging for an emergency generator.

[abaddonxi]

I run a LPG/electric stove in the warehouse. One electric element that plugs into the wall, four burners that run off a 9kg bbq bottle.

I change the bottle over about three or four times a year. I don't use the gas oven - the other stove has an electric oven.

Interesting thread. In the new house there's two electric stoves - two kitchens - and an oil burning thing like an Aga, although apparently of much lesser quality, that also heats water.

Simon

[B92 8NW]

Aga's are coke fired, they don't burn wood. Getting supplies of coke is not so easy.....we had an Aga once but sold it for that very reason. Now I wish we had kept it as I would convert it to gas as the buyer was doing.



The new range of AGAs can be ordered to run on coke, wood, electricity, LPG, natural, diesel and kerosene. I "inherited" one from my grandparents for when I build, but there have been quite a few very tempting offers to take it off my hands.

[B92 8NW]

Mine is coke at this stage, but it has the water boiler as well.

Very nice NM!

[rick130]

The stables HWS only uses one bottle/season.

I honestly can't remember how quickly we went through gas in the old cottage on the farm, but it must've been Ok as I don't remember having a whinge about it :D SWMBO is over your way this weekend giving a clinic, I'll ask her tomorrow if she can rememeber how much we used. I actually used to comment on how long the bottles lasted when we were living there.
That house had a cheapy gas range and a Rheem HWS.

The next house had a Westinghouse electric range and I hated it, slow, hard to regulate temps, just nasty to use IMO.
Both houses had big old combustion stoves that'd been wrecked by overstoking the firebox. Pitty.

This place has a big old Rheem electric off peak HWS that all I had to do was flush out (full of limestone/calcium from the river) and change the element so to save money we didn't go solar or gas. (money had to be spent elsewhere, if saw the house you'd understand why :D)

Interestingly a mate was head of R&D at Dux a few years back and he advised me not to go solar here as he reckoned the booster would be on too often negating the savings.

[abaddonxi]

A friend had a instantaneous gas heater (Bosch) on their tank system, with the water pressure igniter - solar power only - and had irritating problems starting it because of low water pressure from the tank. I'm sure it could've been fixed simply, but distance, etc. made it a problem.

They ran a gas stove, gas fridge, and HWS off tanks and bitched and moaned about how much gas they used, and that's with English showers.:D

Simon

[rick130]

A friend had a instantaneous gas heater (Bosch) on their tank system, with the water pressure igniter - solar power only - and had irritating problems starting it because of low water pressure from the tank. I'm sure it could've been fixed simply, but distance, etc. made it a problem.


I contemplated that, but was worried about ignition too. Our pressure gets pretty low when the tanks empty :lol2:


They ran a gas stove, gas fridge, and HWS off tanks and bitched and moaned about how much gas they used, and that's with English showers.:D

SimonProbably depends on family size too, there are only two of us.

[rick130]

Our new place in the country has gas hot water
When I opened an account with the gas suppliers they advised me to expect a new cylinder every 8 weeks minimum :eek:

Hot water system will be one of the first new items to go in when we move I think ;) Not sure yet which way we will go

Current gas cost for us in NSW & Qld is about $120 per bottle plus yearly rental in Qld only

Our old HWS never used anything like that :eek:
A near new room heater in the last place used more though :o
I shivered a lot instead.

After installing a new air conditioner in the FIL's place he donated his old slow combustion heater to our cause. I had to buy a new chainsaw, and it dings my green credentials a lot, but it is brilliant.
It'll probably stay on continually from late March through October.

[DeeJay]

I work for a LPG distributor, but do mostly large volume commercial/industrial installations- but I came up through the ranks;).
A 45 KG bottle contains a bit under 89 litres and - is around $28.00 a year to rent. A kilo of gas gives you 50.4 Mj/Hr or a litre 25.4 Mj/HR. I'm getting rusty but a stove uses around 30Mj/hr on all 4 burners & the oven around 12 mj/hr.
A Bosch or Rinnai instantaneous system uses 160Mj/hr, but I think there are now models suitable for 1 tap that are 120Mj/hr.

For a comparison to electricity, a kilo of LPG = 14KW, so a 45kg bottle contains the equivalent of roughly 630kw. (We used to say 623kw) I'm paying 16.25 cents per kw in Melb which works out to over $100 a bottle :eek:
I'd do what NM suggests & just rent one - if you dont use the oven much it will last well over a year- and have a caravan 9kg as reserve while a new 45kg is arranged to replace the MT one.
Confused??

[Tank]

Go Gas, we have a Gas Cooktop and an underbench gas oven for 2/sometimes 3 people and our gas bottles last up to 18 months each, we don't pay any rental fee for our bottles, shop around not all charge rental.
You may have trouble finding a gas oven, most are now electric, Westinghouse and Chef still make gas ovens as do some European manufacturers, if you go gas get an oven that is flued to the outside that way you wont get cooking fumes in the house. Wood and Coke ovens that also heat water are fine in Winter but too hot to have running in Summer, Regards Frank.

[PhilipA]

I did the economics of an instantaneous gas when I replaced my Off Peak 1 electric.
From the manufacturers gas usage it was going to be very expensive to have just 2 X 5 minute showers a day, so my conclusion was to buy another electric for off peak 1 use.

If you use $45 in off peak 1 hot water, I would suggest bottled gas will be about 4 times as expensive. I have had extensive experience with gas and electric instantaneous and they are a PITA with having sometimes to put the sink tap on as well to get them to switch on. However I was willing to have the hassle until I saw the cost!

We have a gas cook top and use a gas non flued portable heater for about 2 weeks a year in Avoca Beach and use about 1 cylinder per year.
Regards Philip A

[slug_burner]

I will not go into the economics of it I will leave that to DeeJay and others who have actual figures. I think it comes down to what sort of cooking you do. I can't comment on induction but electrical element cooking is a pain. Gas is instant and electric is not, if you like stry fried food gas is the way.

Electric ovens are the way to go particularly if you want fan forced cooking.

Off peak electric water heating is fine until you have a few people over and the last few get a cold shower. I have instant gas hot water and for a small family (2) it is great, cheaper than storing hot water in a tank and not using all that you store. When you do need a lot of hot water it is not going to run out. For the few times that you need a lot of hot water the extra running costs in this situation of instant over storage are acceptable.

There are problems with instant HWS. Having multiple taps on is a problem as is the minimum amount of water that you need to trigger the heater. However this once again is fine with a small family. If you have a few kids flicking the hot water on here and there I suspect this could become a pain.

[Xavie]

I would be considering induction cooking. It is quite good and is also instant like gas. I don't like anything but gas stove, oven and hot water but I think you will save a bit by keeping it electric and not even needing to hook up gas.
The induction does have draw-backs like only being able to use certain types of pans and they can be a bit more expensive but it is not to much more.

You also can't burn yourself on induction so that is pretty impressive and if you leave it on but forget to put a pan on then nothing heats up. I accidentally left my gas stove on all day the other day and I wasn't home:eek:

I have a seperate lpg gas ring outside to do some stuff because I have never seen a stove with a really really hot burner for wokking etc.

[rick130]

<snip>

I have a seperate lpg gas ring outside to do some stuff because I have never seen a stove with a really really hot burner for wokking etc.

Our Alenzi range has a wok ring that uses an inner and outer ring on the burner to get the heat.

The other thing I forgot to mention is one downside of gas is that the flame can be influenced by breezes. If your house has lots of windows and you can get real crossflow ventilation happening it can really slow down cooking.
I was trying to poach some eggs fro brekky one morning and I couldn't work out why the water wasn't simmering when it should be.
I judiciously closed a couple of windows and problem solved :whistling:

[Xavie]

Yes, my gas stove has a wok burner but it is no where near as good as they could make them. When I was looking the only stoves which had a proper wok burner were 5 grand+

[George130]

For an idea we have bottle gas and is our heating. In winter the truck comes every 8 weeks. There are 2 of the 45kg bottles on the side of the house. We have only run out 4 times.

[The ho har's]

We are in the bush so to speak...we have tank water...gas cook top and oven and instantaneous hot water system....works a treat we have 2 45KG bottles and they will last better part of 5-7 months depending how much we are touring around OZ:D

and has previously stated when the power goes out you can't flush the loo or have a drink let alone have a shower so a generator is the first thing you should buy:D

hope this helps

Mrs ho har:angel:

[greg smith]

We have purchased an Italian brand stainless wth gas top and elect fan forced oven. A very good system up here as cyclones can leave us without power usually once a year or so. The new style oven seems to be very good heating up quickly and our elect bill hasn't changed that much from the previous gas stove

[Redback]

Hey Simon, we just installed a gas stove in our place, we have bottled gas delivered, it's been in for 9mths and we are still on the first bottle, we have saved a couple of hundred dollars in elec bills so far and we have also had a few blackouts, and still being able to cook and make a cuppa is definately a bonus.

Gas all the way mate:D

Baz.

[JamesH]

First off, I love Agas as much as I love Landies, and that's a whole lot. I don't have one and probably won't ever get a "real" constant heat one as I live in Perth and am single but I'll get an Aga version of a normal stove next time sure as I got a Defender as soon as I could.

It was great to see those pics.

Secondly I think the advice for bottled gas for your stove top and electric for the oven is sound. The expression "you're cooking with gas" didn't come out of nowhere. Hot water I'm not so sure about, I'd be thinking electric boosted solar might be the way to go.

Oh and did I mention I love Agas?

[loanrangie]

I prefer a gas stove and an electric oven....

if you run out of gas you can still use the oven, if the electricity goes down you can use the stove.

I think gas offers better control over most electric stovetops.

I agree, a fan forced convection ovens heat quickly and evenly and gas stoves as Dave said offer greater control than electric ones. Modern electric hobs also heat quickly but most of these need a near perfect flat saucepan bottom to transfer heat correctly whereas gas doesnt - cant stirfry on an electric hob very well either.

[Slunnie]

My sincerest thanks to all that have commented in this thread. Its a really interesting learning experience for me in all of this house building thing. There is a lot of money going down and it would be nice to get everything right to start with, and so the experience here is absolutely invaluable. Thank you!

The overwhelming feedback seems to be to cook with gas, and in many repects there was a fairly limited comparison to induction although there was an excellent article posted, but you have all got me thinking that even though the 2 cooking methods are comparable that the blackout situation may be an over riding factor in heading towards a gas top. I think most ovens are already electric and fan forced as they distribute the heat relatively evenly. Even if the house was to run on an emergency generator, the induction cooking seems to draw a huge amount of power despite its efficiencies. The other thing which is really cool, is that I think I can then just plug the BBQ into the house also rather than running it off its own bottles.

The HWS is another interesting one! I would like to have instant gas or electric HWS, and that is fine for me, but the house is 4br and running that much HW through instant gas may be offputting for whoever may buy the house after me. The instant electric also looks like a really good idea to me - depending on if the house has that much power available to it! The pressure issues are something also to consider, especially as the house is on tank, although the water is to be pumped up to the house rather than from a gravity feed. The plans are currently for a solar setup and there is no reason at this stage why that cant change (pending Bassiks) and another option which has been given is a heat pump tank. Being just out of Orange I really wasnt sure that the solar was the way to go, though the builder has told me that the solar can generate heat down to some really low temp - how.... I've got no idea, but this is a cold climate region. What happened to the good old days with the electric Rheemglas tanks that were relatively cheap and you just turf them out every 10 years when they explode - yeah, false economy.

[Disco Steve]

check what the local guys chrage to replace bottles as some areas are quite expensive.

Cheers Steve

[dobbo]

I have gas bottles, running the gas oven/stove top 2 bottles lasts 6 months in summer, 1 - 2 months in winter with the heater running as well. Personally, I think I can cook better with gas.

BBQ is the wrong fitting for the bottle, but I have seen home built adaptors, I even saw one bloke fill up a bottle in his ute at the servo $10 as opposed to $95, what would be the fine though? (apparently basic plumbing supply shops have all the fittings)

HWS, I have electric. Was put off strictly solar HWS by the fact the 2nd person always had a luke warm shower. Don't know if this is still the case with todays setups. I think you can get duel setups that use both solar and grid power.

Q: How does one reheat KFC on a gas stove? ;)

[Redback]

I have gas bottles, running the gas oven/stove top 2 bottles lasts 6 months in summer, 1 - 2 months in winter with the heater running as well. Personally, I think I can cook better with gas.

BBQ is the wrong fitting for the bottle, but I have seen home built adaptors, I even saw one bloke fill up a bottle in his ute at the servo $10 as opposed to $95, what would be the fine though? (apparently basic plumbing supply shops have all the fittings)

HWS, I have electric. Was put off strictly solar HWS by the fact the 2nd person always had a luke warm shower. Don't know if this is still the case with todays setups. I think you can get duel setups that use both solar and grid power.

Q: How does one reheat KFC on a gas stove? ;)

A: With one of these Matt;)

http://www.colemanaustralia.com.au/templates/coleman_content_products.aspx?productCode=5010D700 T&categoryID=1103&parentCategory=1078

Simon have a look at these beauties
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
Falcon Classic 110 gas cooker product page (http://www.andico.com.au/productpages/falcon/classicgas110.html)

[Slunnie]

BBQ is the wrong fitting for the bottle, but I have seen home built adaptors, I even saw one bloke fill up a bottle in his ute at the servo $10 as opposed to $95, what would be the fine though? (apparently basic plumbing supply shops have all the fittings)

HWS, I have electric. Was put off strictly solar HWS by the fact the 2nd person always had a luke warm shower. Don't know if this is still the case with todays setups. I think you can get duel setups that use both solar and grid power.

Q: How does one reheat KFC on a gas stove? ;)

I thought that I'd seen a few people with the BBQ which plugs into the house rather than into the bottle and they just run a hose that matches the gas cock on the wall to the bbq.

Thats also a really interesting point re the bottles and filling. It'd be interesting to know if filling bottles from built adaptors which are trailer mounted for example is illegal.

The KFC - thats no probs. Same way that I cook fish fingers.... in the microwave. :D


A: With one of these Matt;)

http://www.colemanaustralia.com.au/templates/coleman_content_products.aspx?productCode=5010D700 T&categoryID=1103&parentCategory=1078

Simon have a look at these beauties
http://www.completehome.com.au/__data/page/8099/classic2.jpg
Falcon Classic 110 gas cooker product page (http://www.andico.com.au/productpages/falcon/classicgas110.html)
Hi Baz, I had a look at these in the shops. They're really cool looking, and the shop man thought that they were really well built / high quality etc, but I thought that they were really flimsy to be honest and in that respect didn't impress me. Nothing like the build of the real things.

[Disco_owner]

My Next Door neighbour has pulmed up the gas from his House to his
backyard and fitted the correct fitting for his 4 burner gas BBQ for
entertaining his Guests :D

I thought that's pretty cool, mind you his son is a plumber to do all the gas work etc.

If I was to build a new house I'd go with gas. My electricity bill is always up
and above $250 every quarter and that's probably becuase I have a small Hot water
system which is switched to use off-peak 2 .

[Slunnie]

Thanks for you help all!

On Saturday I finally bought the stove.

I ended up getting an Ilve PD-90 with Tepenyaki hot plate. Its a gas stove and electric ovens.

http://www.ilve.co.za/pro%20plus%20pd90.jpg

[dullbird]

nice slunnie nice!! :)

[Slunnie]

Hey thanks dullbird! Construction is starting shortly, so hopefully there will be a house to go around the stove!

[Xtreme]

We changed over from all electric to a gas/electric Ilve 90 something a few years ago, they're a great stove. I'm sure you'll be pleased with it.

[DeeJay]

Quote
"Thats also a really interesting point re the bottles and filling. It'd be interesting to know if filling bottles from built adaptors which are trailer mounted for example is illegal".

The regulations are fairly straightforward.
You can fill any automotive cylinder "attached to & forming part of a vehicles fuel system" from a bowser & thats it..
Up to a 20 litre cylinder ( generally 9kg) can be decant filled, unless its an automotive ( forklift) cylinder, then its 50 litres.
The gas at a servo is usually autogas which is 50% butane 50% propane.
There has been an alert out for years & years & I know a bloke who got pinged. He went to court & got fined, but he won't discuss it at all. It must have hurt.

LPG Australia (http://www.lpgaustralia.com.au/displaycommon.cfm?an=15)