D2 V8LPG vs TD5

[vogue]

Hi all, after a 2 year absense of owning a Land Rover, i can't wait any longer. My current '97 Prado has recently cost me over $5g for a new engine and lots of other problems with only 240000km on clock.
So i'm after a D2 '02-'04, but don't know which to get the V8 or TD5???
The V8's seem a few thousand cheaper, but the gas convertion will make the cost about the same. I am planning a big trip to the Kimberly and am worried about lack of range in the V8, however i love the sound and power.
I am also very worried about reliability and ongoing maintience costs of the TD5. I have never owned a diesel before so it's all new.

Please give me your thoughts, what should i buy?

Thanks
Alex

[Redback]

Personally I'd go a TD5 04 model, 10 to 11/100k Vs 16 to 24/100k and 400k to 450k Vs 700k to 800k range for touring, no brainer really.

Baz.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Redback, go the TD5, much more economical and you can chip it to have about the same power as the V8 anyway. Its great for touring, i just did a week trip to Fraser on only 2 tanks, and for me its a 4.5hr drive just to get to the barge. The Td5 isn't as unreliable as many say they are, get one with a good service history and your set.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Camo]

Id go the 4.0 V8 with the LPG

More power

will do 300,000k's before you even need to touch the motor unlike the TD5 which cost a fortune.. one of the worst landy motors by far

V8 sound:D

Cheaper to buy..

Don't need to worry about range.. heaps of fuel stations up that ways..800k range is not needed

Camo

[29dinosaur]

I have a V8 but only use as daily drive, and a few minor excursions. It cost me at time about $7K less than a TD5. Must admit that the issues with TD5 scared me off but having spoken with owners with reliable ones I'd be happy to change - if I could. (Bit locked up with finance at moment).
Go the TD5.

[Camo]

The guys Ive talked to who have changed from V8 to TD5 .. well they miss the power

Why would you wanna do that?

D3 Diesels are getting cheap now.. might be worth the extra? They seem to go really well

Camo

[waz]

I have an 02 Td5 auto and a friend has an 01 V8 (without lpg) auto.

On the road, I get 11lt/100km; he gets 14lt/100. This would get worse if he put on LPG.

The V8 is just effortless and responsive in the way it handles offroading. Td5 does experience some turbo lag but the economy starts to shine as his dulls.

If range is your concern, could you put in a larger tank?

I know this hasn't helped with your problem. I love my Td5, he loves the V8. Drive them both.

Neither of us have had any reliability issues.

W

[BigJon]

Hmm,

Coke vs Pepsi,

Rum vs Scotch,

AFL vs NRL,

V8i vs TD5,

I think it all comes down to personal preference.

[vogue]

Thanks for all the reply's, please keep them coming.
Either vehicle that i buy will have around 100,000km on the clock. What are the potential big expenses that i may need to factor in over the next 100,000km. After lots of problems with my Prado i want to keep the big expenses down, not including sheduled servicing.

[mrapocalypse]

Hey Vogue,

My advice is to be wary about plans to modify.

Firstly I have a d2 V8 on LPG with Long range tanks, so in Theory I can get about 1300K without filling! Good start....

Trouble is that your LPG installer might not be the most sympathetic Land Rover spanner man there is, and the system can and does affect your vehicle in several adverse ways, sensor readings and the under bonnet area is insane with pipes and crap going in all directions and lots of chafing etc! None of which either the LPG man can or will understand and the Land Rover Mechs wont go near!

That said, if you want to buy a TD5 and chip it, then buy a V8, and chip it, put a big bore exhaust on, connect it to LPG from a good, recomended installer, get the rebate and have change left over.... that's lots and lots of fun at 53 cents a litre!

My long Range Tanks cost me almost $3000 for 165l. They re extremely heavy, and i still haven't got round to getting the last 50litres out of the bottom of the tank due to improper insrtallation (Courtesy of LPG man)That really hurt and didn't go to plan at all.

The only really common fault that you will have to keep a close eye on is front drive shafts, now a well documented replacement item at about every 50K! Door locks are also a bit of a pain.

Get one with ACE, it's amazing, although you'll get sick of the soft ACE standard springs in about a week with any load and the front bumper will look pretty sketchy after any decent off road trip. They were my first mods and made the difference. CDL very important. me and my Mrs absolutely love our Landy, and it gets used heaps. Great car! And reliable despite what you will have no doubt heard! Just look after it and go to a recomended mechanic, like Coopers in Syd, MR in Bris!

Happy hunting.

Ian.

[29dinosaur]

Hey Vogue,

Firstly I have a d2 V8 on LPG with Long range tanks, so in Theory I can get about 1300K without filling! Good start....


Wow - what size tanks are they - must take up all your boot, or are you pulling one of these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1217.jpg

[mrapocalypse]

Ah the power of Google. I'm sorry, I meant PETROL Tanks!

[ozscott]

95 D1 V8 Auto with 285,000k on LPG and petrol...very good even compression and very very smooth on LPG - better than petrol.

2002 D2 Manual V8 with 140,000k on LPG and petrol....single point with simple servo main tap and servo idle hooked up to Oxy Sensor feed to achieve the best mix for the circumstances. 20l/100k ON LPG in and out to town including peak hour with 31s and Bull Bar. I test drive the TD5 and have been in them since...I dont want to start a war but my choice obviously was the V8. I just cant get enough of that silky smooth sound and power...makes it feel like a luxury vehcile and it tows by 2000kg boat very well. I used 3 manifold tanks in the rear and it lies about 200mm high across most of the floor.

Chips, chips - dont know about that for longevity; the TD5 was a very small motor with a very big hair dryer hanging off it to give it some herbs...in a heavy truck. No problems factory, but I wouldnt chip, thats just me. The TD5 must lack something for some many people to chip them :wasntme: I reckon if it could easily handle extra power and torque it would be built like that. The D3 TD on the other hand is a very torquey and powerful mill from the factory.

Cheers

[Hastykiwi]

Id go the 4.0 V8 with the LPG

More power

will do 300,000k's before you even need to touch the motor unlike the TD5 which cost a fortune.. one of the worst landy motors by far

V8 sound:D

Cheaper to buy..

Don't need to worry about range.. heaps of fuel stations up that ways..800k range is not needed

Camo

Can you actually back that up with anything approaching empirical evidence?


Nick

[Bytemrk]

G'day Vogue,

I speak as someone who has owned a V8 D2.... pondered putting it on LPG ( Even actually booked it in).... then decided to sell it and bought a TD5 D2A.

Firstly a couple of points.. If you actually talk to most decent Landrover mechanics they will tell you they see more problems with V8's than TD5's... so don't let the forum BS that the TD5 is a bad motor cloud your thoughts... it is simply pure CRAP.

Whats right for you may depend a bit on what you are going to use the car for...

The reasons I decided against gas were:

1. Range.... I am planning a lot of outback touring so diesel won there hands down due to range and availability.

2. Lack of reliable cost effective Gas options - IMHO to get a decent LPG system on a D2 you need to go to sequential injection - and that's not cheap. It's a lot different from gas on a D1 you will find there are a LOT of people that have put Gas on D2's and not been at all happy with the results. Mt Apocolypse may not fully agree but I decided after driving several gas powered D2's that it wasn't the right option for me..Also most conversions mean you either loose petrol tank capacity - or interior space - and for touring I needed both.

Now.... to the people that tell you .. oh the V8 is far more powerful than the TD5..

Again, what a crock...Yes mine is chipped... but honestly, its far nicer to drive than the V8 ever was, it tows better, obviously has heaps more low down torque.. and if I want to...it is far faster off the lights too.

Right now, diesel is slightly cheaper than petrol - and I get 350km more out of every tank around town than I did with the petrol... yes it's still more expensive than gas (debatable after you calculate the conversion cost). But LPG just isn't available in many of the places I intend to travel ( And you cant put it in a Jerry can on the trailer either! :angel:)

I'm a petrol head from way back...... I let that cloud my judgment when I got the v8 Disco2.... I couldn't be happier with the decision to go with the diesel.

My advice - give it a long hard think before you rush into either option,go and drive several vehicles set up the way you think you will go BEFORE spending your cash.. As others have said - buy with a good service history - this preferably means serviced by Land Rover specific mechanics. I see you are in Melbourne, I got Roverland ( Ferntree Gully) to check out my new one before I bought it - despite it coming form a LR dealer, that may also help you get one that's been looked after right.

Oh....If you go diesel get it chipped. makes a massive difference..

[ozscott]

Bytemark - to be honest mate its a bit trading wife one in on wife 2 - you can never admit that wife 2 is anything but better...:)

Seriously though I drove TD5s before buying the V8 and the 2 in my opinion dont compare in the TD5s favour, but again a lot if preference. As for which is the most reliable engine the D2 V8 has very few problems. The rover mechanics that get frustrated with the Buick V8 are those that work on the older ones, especially with Lucas electronic ignition systems. The D2 is an entirely different proposition with its Bosch Motronic engine management lifted straight from BMW 7 series V8's and re-mapped.

The D2 V8s are a thing of beauty. They are a class act from their 4 bolt mains through to their injection system. Unfortunately the TD5 have had some real dramas, not the least of which is a oil in the loom, but there are other problems. Again I dont want to get into a war, but you did say that knowledgeable rover mechs say the V8 has more problems. In reality they dont. Also long term a well balanced V8 with chrome bores will be likely to last just as long as a modern TD and when it comes to re-conditioning time...hang on boys who have the TD because it will be horrific.

I like the sequential injecton on LPG but let me tell you that single point using 02 sensors to achieve stochiometric is pure simplicity and it works! I am driving proof of that.

I think what Bytemark says at the end of the day is right though just go and drive a few of each...you may not get a V8 on LPG to drive, but they are sweet with more torque down low than petrol, and the V8 is already a thing of beauty down low torque wise, particularly for its size.

Also, get a quote on ONE diesel injector and the pump, and turbo for the TD5 and also a quote on a top to bottom re-build for both types of engine before buying.

Cheers

[vogue]

Thanks for all your advice.
I was talking to one of the mechanics at Range Rov yesterday since they specialize in LPG conversions. His advice was to go the V8 on gas, cheaper maintainence cost over a long time and a smooth powerful engine. They have a V8 on gas that they offered for me to test drive to help make up my mind.
Still at $5800 less gov rebate for tanks under the floor, makes the TD5 seem a better up front option.
Still confused by my heart and head are going V8:)

[ozscott]

....test drive the LPG! To be honest if you really want a TD5 dont drive the V8 first. I had a good mate who got a TD5 D2 new shortly before I got my V8 - he hadnt tested the V8. Then his brother got the V8 new almost immediately after...he drove his brothers and then immediately took his in only months old and traded it on the V8 because he couldnt stand the truck like sound, and off the line lag...and loved how smooth the V8 was and the sound...its not like most petrol motors in that regard...super smooth right up high in the revs straight out of the box which for a pushrod V8 isnt bad... in the end thats often what it comes down to.

[Blknight.aus]

if you want range you go diesel.

if you want yihaa factor and nice noises you get the v8.

chipped td5's beat the v8s in pretty much every respect.

[Bytemrk]

Thanks for all your advice.
I was talking to one of the mechanics at Range Rov yesterday since they specialize in LPG conversions. His advice was to go the V8 on gas, cheaper maintainence cost over a long time and a smooth powerful engine. They have a V8 on gas that they offered for me to test drive to help make up my mind.
Still at $5800 less gov rebate for tanks under the floor, makes the TD5 seem a better up front option.
Still confused by my heart and head are going V8:)

G'day Vogue,

Pretty sure that Walker on here had his V8 D2 converted by RangeRov some time back. Maybe if you contact him, he may be able to give you some more first hand advice.

It really does come back to how the vehicle will be used.

But I would keep something in the back of my mind that when chatting to RangeRov.....they sell LPG systems.

The advice may be totally unbiased.....but I am sure they would like you to spend that $5,800 too.

AMV are just up the road in Ringwood and Roverland in Dorset Rd Fertree Gully are 2 other good Land Rover workshops out this way that may be worth chatting to.

Anyway good luck with it.....Just remember what ever you buy..... SERVICE HISTORY does matter ...a lot.

Mark

[SPROVER]

If you want more power,torque and better economy you can always chip the V8 as well:) A nice sounding exhaust will always help too.Ive always been a V8 man myself.Just dont like the sound of the diesel motors.Sound like a Kenworth.:wasntme: The only reason i would get a diesel would be for the range in the outback.But since im not going into the outback its a V8 for me all the way.:D:D

[Bytemrk]

If you want more power,torque and better economy you can always chip the V8 as well:) A nice sounding exhaust will always help too.Ive always been a V8 man myself.Just dont like the sound of the diesel motors.Sound like a Kenworth.:wasntme: The only reason i would get a diesel would be for the range in the outback.But since im not going into the outback its a V8 for me all the way.:D:D


That's exactly why I have pointed out twice... that it really depends what the vehicle is being used for.

I love the sound of a V8 too , that's exactly why I bought my first Discovery as a V8.... but the way I use mine Diesel makes far more sense than LPG.

And as far as :burnrubber:goes... there is no question at all, since chipping it has far more go than my V8 AND I get 75% further on every tank around town!

Love the V8 noise... but I'd rather have the go and the economy.

but that's just me..

[Tombie]

Chips, chips - dont know about that for longevity; the TD5 was a very small motor with a very big hair dryer hanging off it to give it some herbs...in a heavy truck. No problems factory, but I wouldnt chip, thats just me. The TD5 must lack something for some many people to chip them :wasntme: I reckon if it could easily handle extra power and torque it would be built like that. The D3 TD on the other hand is a very torquey and powerful mill from the factory.

Cheers

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

And many are chipping the D3 as well...

What an un-substantiated statement :p

"I reckon if the V8s were any good they'd fit larger exhausts, bigger cats and have them mapped better in the first place" :angel:

Like ALL Landrover engines, they are (TD5s) tuned with a mapping suited to the lowest quality fuels available.

There is plenty of margin in a TD5 for strength over the V8 lump.

And chipping a V8 is like Dry Humping... Its ok, but just isnt quite right!
The only way to make V8s grunt is Cam, Compression, Porting and then remapping...

And I have no bias - I love the V8 sound etc.. I have always had a V8 until I got into the last 2 Landies...

But I also love the sound of a Turbo Diesel singing down an open pipe at full noise! Now thats a thing of beauty...:D

[Grover-98]

TD5 which cost a fortune.. one of the worst landy motors by far

Camo

I have heard the first diesels they did were far worse.

[ozscott]

That sound like good advice from Mark - they cant be totally unbiased if they are selling that system...shop around no rush.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Tombie's comments...can anyone else see the problem of 2.5 litres and 5 cylinders lugging well over 2 tonn of vehicle and people and gear and pulling 2-3.5 tonn....does any other manufacturer think its acceptable to build a diesel doing that sort of work with that small a CC to start off life with?

I would like to hear from people who have chipped their TD5 and have racked up 300,000 on their CHIPPED (so dont count un chipped, relatively unstressed miles pls) miles especially towing....

Cheers

PS. I dont understand the comment about larger cats etc for the V8 because most people dont chip them whereas many people chip their TD5 which makes me think people conclude that their TD's are wanting.:p

[slug_burner]

This is starting to sound like the Ford vs Holden debate. Some people will just never change from what ever their preference is, V8 or diesel.

The only landsrovers I have ever had have been diesel 300Tdi and Td5. I did not buy a land rover to go fast, if I wanted that I would have got a sedan.

I certainly would be very cautious about advice from a company that fits LPG, I think most would know that they are not going to advise against LPG.


Look and test drive a few. Have you ever been into the NT, WA and SA outback? If you had I don't think that you would be asking what vehicle to get.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

oh,, I see,,

if you have been to these places you JUST KNOW which to buy,,

have I got that right?


so,, we are heading down the ol'e "A Landrover's not a proper landrover unless its a diesel" doctrine,, because ONLY a diesel can go to these places.

[chazza]

I was laughed at by my brother for buying a V8, whilst he kept his 300tdi in 2002.

I told him to do the maths I had done before buying:
1. The V8 had done 82 000km the two diesels in the yard in comparable condition had done 130 000 and 150 000km.
2. The V8 was for sale for $23 000, the diesels for $33 000 and $31 500 respectively.
3. By buying the V8 I was already $8 500 in front, plus interest on the loan.
4. In those days conversion to gas cost me $500 after the Govt's contribution; ($8000 in front)
5. Where I live diesolene has always been more expensive than PULP. It would have taken me about 2 years to recover the cost of the fuel, if I had purchased the diesel, as I don't do many kms a year.
6. Using LPG for long trips has saved me so much in fuel costs that the diesel option never really was an option.

Everyone's needs and uses are different, so do some simple calculations if money is an issue. I would love to have a diesel as much as I love the V8 but the running costs; purchase price; distance driven per annum; suitability for use etc. all have a bearing on whether a car is a good buy or not,

Cheers Charlie

[Slunnie]

Tombie's comments...can anyone else see the problem of 2.5 litres and 5 cylinders lugging well over 2 tonn of vehicle and people and gear and pulling 2-3.5 tonn....does any other manufacturer think its acceptable to build a diesel doing that sort of work with that small a CC to start off life with?

I would like to hear from people who have chipped their TD5 and have racked up 300,000 on their CHIPPED (so dont count un chipped, relatively unstressed miles pls) miles especially towing....

Cheers

PS. I dont understand the comment about larger cats etc for the V8 because most people dont chip them whereas many people chip their TD5 which makes me think people conclude that their TD's are wanting.:p

I guess you could draw a comparison.

TD5 2.75t at GVM with 2.5 litre engine = 1100kg per litre.
Semi trailer 51t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 3188kg per litre.
B double 70t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 4312kg per litre.
Road Train 100t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 6250kg per litre.

I don't think the vehicle weight is an issue for the engine size. Cat, Detroit, Cummins etc have been making engines that load at up 6x more in comparison to their capacity without drama and these engines live a lot longer (but are used differently).

Also, people chip the TD5's because you can get a heap of power out of them for little cost. The V8's dont really respond well to chipping - same or more money for not much.

[Slunnie]

Also, get a quote on ONE diesel injector and the pump, and turbo for the TD5 and also a quote on a top to bottom re-build for both types of engine before buying.

Cheers
To be fair, the TD5 injectors dont go bad unless they've had a physical trauma. The pumps are much of a much between the V8 and TD5, bottom end rebuilds are irrelevant for the TD5, but needed for high km V8's, top end rebuild is irrelevant for the TD5 but relevant for even low km V8's, and then you also need to add the cost of repairing blocks with top hat liners in the V8 and looms + manifolds in the TD5.

[SPROVER]

I have emailed a few people regarding the chips for the Rover V8 3.9.Out of the people i have emailed all of them have been very happy with the chip they used.It gave better fuel economy and more low down torque.Speak to Mark Adams regarding it.He can give you the whole low down on it.:D Might be doing it when the funds allow.Also just to rub it in.The first 9 or so threads in technical chatter are all for diesels:wasntme::p.Bet you that comment will stir some people.:wasntme:But regarding this whole thread it comes down to what you REALLY want yourself.V8 or Diesel? Your choice in the long run!

[Bytemrk]

I have emailed a few people regarding the chips for the Rover V8 3.9.Out of the people i have emailed all of them have been very happy with the chip they used.It gave better fuel economy and more low down torque.Speak to Mark Adams regarding it.He can give you the whole low down on it.:D Might be doing it when the funds allow.Also just to rub it in.The first 9 or so threads in technical chatter are all for diesels:wasntme::p.Bet you that comment will stir some people.:wasntme:But regarding this whole thread it comes down to what you REALLY want yourself.V8 or Diesel? Your choice in the long run!

The original query was between a diesel or V8 Disco II so between the 4.0 and a TD5..

There is a big difference between the 3.9 and the 4.0. I wouldn't hesitate putting a 3.9 on gas, I've just never seen a 4.0 converted to gas in a way I could live with. Even the couple of sequential gas systems I have driven - really disappointed me.

As far as chips go, what Tombie and the others have said is 100% true comparing the 4.0 and Td5... you simply get a lot of bang for your buck chipping a Td5 ... the 4.0 provides very minimal improvement.

I think the popularity of TD5 chips is the simplicity of the upgrade.

Most of the V8 chips for the 4.0 like the Tornado (http://www.rangerovers.net/rrupgrades/engine/tornado/index.html) that Mark Adams sells give as little as 10 - 15 horsepower extra.

My chip is pretty mild.. I am not looking to build a race car.. but it still gave me an additional 30 bhp and an extra 70 Nm of torque - in 10 minutes on a computer! (It was simply an ecu remapping - no hardware needed)and I am still getting an average of 12L/100km despite having a heavy right foot. (Average in my standard V8 was 19.5)

But in the end... What is right for me may not be what's right for Vogue,

Decide how its going to be used..... do the maths... and go drive a few and make sure you can live with your decision..

Mark

[slug_burner]

oh,, I see,,

if you have been to these places you JUST KNOW which to buy,,

have I got that right?


so,, we are heading down the ol'e "A Landrover's not a proper landrover unless its a diesel" doctrine,, because ONLY a diesel can go to these places.


Well I hope that you do see.:) I have not made any comment about what a proper land rover is, I have a couple of series ones which to some people are the real land rovers and they all run on petrol.

The availability of diesel is much greater than petrol in remote places. So I guess you have got it right, if you want to travel the outback it would be advisable to go with the diesel. Now if you just want to drive to the local pay and play, it does not matter what you have petrol or diesel.

[Tombie]

I guess you could draw a comparison.

TD5 2.75t at GVM with 2.5 litre engine = 1100kg per litre.
Semi trailer 51t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 3188kg per litre.
B double 70t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 4312kg per litre.
Road Train 100t at GVM with 16 litre engine = 6250kg per litre.

I don't think the vehicle weight is an issue for the engine size. Cat, Detroit, Cummins etc have been making engines that load at up 6x more in comparison to their capacity without drama and these engines live a lot longer (but are used differently).

Also, people chip the TD5's because you can get a heap of power out of them for little cost. The V8's dont really respond well to chipping - same or more money for not much.

Thanks Slunnie - Saved me typing....

And yes, your spot on on the TD5 upgrade too... Lots of easy power for minimal outlay.. Not the same on V8s lots of money for smaller gains...

I dont care either way, its not my money the original poster is spending and I now regret even typing in this thread in the first place.....

[Tombie]

Oh and for the record...

I was rewriting the mapping in V8s in 14CUX and P38 Range Rovers and then early D2s) back in the 90's and early 2000's and doing custom programming of them.

Gains were never that impressive regardless, until head, port, cam, compression were altered...

We dropped doing it because the benefits were minimal without modifications to the engines.

Much of the gains were in smoothing the engine, not power or torque... So yes a few kw here and there but mainly a Placebo effect in relation to power.

But hey.... Who cares :D









Walks away......

[dazzzler]

Please stop....I have just about talked myself into getting a Disco.....you lot are talking me out again :o :p :)

[whitakerb]

Just get the V8. You know you want to.

[Boxer]

If anything, V8 for the sound :)

[ozscott]

I wouldnt chip my 4.0, because the gains are not worth it for me and usually end up pumping a fair bit more fuel down. My LPG D2 drives really well and its single point ($2,000 kit) and gets 19.5l per 100k in peak hour and stop start and a lot better on the highway - but its a manual.

Slunnie - take your point mate however having 16 plus gears might have something to do with the comparo truck motors doing their thing well - and of course the build of those motors is amazing strength wise. The fact remains that no other manufacturer of TDs in larger 4wds use such a small CC with such a big blower...the smallest I can thing of is the 2.8 Patrol motor....which has more than its share of problems and is a towing mole.

I guess its a debate that no one will concede on, but hey they are all landies (I was just correcting some of the earlier posts and adding some balance when I did my (slightly inflammatory:D) posts.

Just buy a landy!

Cheers

[ozscott]

Ohh...Slunnie - aren't you comparing GVM of the Disco with laden weights of the others....ie 50 + tonns for a semi is laden (ie max capacity). So to do the comparo you would need to do the max capacity of the TD5 Disco which is the 2.7 odd for the vehicle plus 3.5 t a trailer...or otherwise you would have to compare the 2.7 odd TD5 with a prime mover sans trailer...at whatever that is say 12tonn or so?

Cheers

[ozscott]

Slunnie - I will defer to your knowledge here, but are you saying that even high k TD5's only need a hone and set of rings (and pistons say) and you back with a motor that will do the same sort of ks again? Otherwise I dont understand why a top end and bottom end re-build are irrelevant to a TD5 - what about crank and bearings for example.

Further, my point about re-builds is particularly valid if you manage to cook one...it can happen.

Cheers

[Tombie]

Such a large Blower???

Its a GT20......

That is not a large blower by any stretch of anyones imagination.

Also, the bottom end of a TD5 is a work of art, very large, strong crank journals etc.... Very over engineered for its output.

The V8 on the other hand, is thin wall castings, yes it is a 4 bolt main, but the wall thickness is thin, prone to slipping linings, and the head chamber design shrouds the valves causing poor burn and sooting in the valve region causing missing and poor running.

BTW - Many light truck diesels were small capacity compared to Petrol brethren... Hi BMEP engines are now the norm...

Go to Europe, Germany etc and watch a VW 1.6L diesel blitz you on the Autobarn and you'll understand powerful small high BMEP diesels in action.



ALSO - I personally know of at least 3 TD5s pushing over 280,000km with no issues.

I personally know 6 or 7 V8s which have needed new blocks, liners, heads etc rebuilt / replaced.... in Under 160,000km...

It all comes down to maintenance, driving style, fuel quality, use etc...

[Tombie]

Slunnie - I will defer to your knowledge here, but are you saying that even high k TD5's only need a hone and set of rings (and pistons say) and you back with a motor that will do the same sort of ks again? Otherwise I dont understand why a top end and bottom end re-build are irrelevant to a TD5 - what about crank and bearings for example.

Further, my point about re-builds is particularly valid if you manage to cook one...it can happen.

Cheers

Cook an alloy engine of any make and you'll be looking at possible block and head replacement if the metal has changed..

TD5 - Cast Block - Head Alloy (head replacement only)
V8 - Alloy everything - Can require block and head replaced...

Seen both cooked - V8 was replaced (block had gone bad from heat) TD5 had new Head fitted...

And there are now O/Size pistons etc available to rebuild the TD5.

[Slunnie]

Oooh, triple quote... I don't think I've done that before. :D

Slunnie - take your point mate however having 16 plus gears might have something to do with the comparo truck motors doing their thing well - and of course the build of those motors is amazing strength wise. The fact remains that no other manufacturer of TDs in larger 4wds use such a small CC with such a big blower...the smallest I can thing of is the 2.8 Patrol motor....which has more than its share of problems and is a towing mole.

I guess its a debate that no one will concede on, but hey they are all landies (I was just correcting some of the earlier posts and adding some balance when I did my (slightly inflammatory:D) posts.

Just buy a landy!

Cheers
I agree, just buy a landy! :D

The trucks may have 16 gears, but half of them overlap. The ones that I've driven (Heavy rigids, not semis) have a crawler and then 8 with a split gearbox (Road Ranger) and then there is a small split for the hwy that doesn't make a lot of difference to me. The newer ones have less gears. They have a heap of gears because a large engine like that wont rev very hard, and you're changing into 5th gear at about 40-45km/h already. Newer more flexible motors rev more and have less gears.

I also believe that motor durability is actually more a function of revs used rather than power output


Ohh...Slunnie - aren't you comparing GVM of the Disco with laden weights of the others....ie 50 + tonns for a semi is laden (ie max capacity). So to do the comparo you would need to do the max capacity of the TD5 Disco which is the 2.7 odd for the vehicle plus 3.5 t a trailer...or otherwise you would have to compare the 2.7 odd TD5 with a prime mover sans trailer...at whatever that is say 12tonn or so?

Cheers

Hmmm, good thought though I based the figures on normal operating conditions rather than towing whcih is a bit exceptional. Then again I should have also used a NT 3 or 4 trailer road train as an example also. A D2 with 3500kg in tow has to pull 250kg from the boot due to nose weight so 2500 + 3500 = 6000kg (note that a car licence only allows up to 4500kg) which is the eq of 2400kg per litre which is still well under that of Semi's.


Slunnie - I will defer to your knowledge here, but are you saying that even high k TD5's only need a hone and set of rings (and pistons say) and you back with a motor that will do the same sort of ks again? Otherwise I dont understand why a top end and bottom end re-build are irrelevant to a TD5 - what about crank and bearings for example.

Further, my point about re-builds is particularly valid if you manage to cook one...it can happen.

Cheers

Top end maybe if its got a lot of km's on it, still not the bottom. They're built stronger than petrols. Interestingly, even after being on the market now for 10 years and having asked on here, there is still no evidence of a worn out TD5. Even on my old race motors we would do about 5 top ends to a bottom end, so I'm not sure why the V8 wears bottom ends. If you cook any regular alloy engine you replace the alloy head at a minimum.

I really is a moot discussion though, as really they are both decent motors and it just depends on what he wants from it.

Tombie, I didn't realise it was a GT20 turbo. These things were being used on 2 litre petrol engines by Toyota in the Supra or something. It'd be interesting to see if the GT25 would bolt on. Then again, after seeing Disco Mick put the Nissan 3.0TD turbo on, I'm liking that also!

[Tombie]

I'm currently waiting on the arrival of the 1st production ready, bolt on VNT turbocharger for my disco.

Final tuning is being done this week on the unit, so when I get the first unit here (on mine) and upload the tune to it we should see some nice improvements on the vehicle!!!

Note, we are NOT chasing big power, but rather improved numbers with a much fatter torque curve - perfectly suited to the Discovery and Defenders already impressive abilities...

I'll keep you all posted!:cool:

[ozscott]

Bloody hell...now Im thinking that if I can stick in a set of ear plugs the TD would be better long term (Im a bloke that likes to keep vehicles for a while...hence the 285,000k 95 D1 3.9 V8 auto (all original drive train) and the 140,000 6 year old D2 and wanting to keep the D2 for a LOT longer - love it!).

Bloody men in black...(diesel soot black that is:))

Cheers

[ozscott]

Although in terms of longevity most V8s put up v-high miles without problems even if you were very unlucky and scored a problem child then a re-build would still see you not out of pocket compared to the purchase price difference between the 8 and the 5...and of course if you wanted to have fun you could go for broke and do the 4.6 - 5 litre with all the bells and have a ball breaker. Just some options here for people who are thinking about the differences between going petrol or diesel.

Cheers

[mrapocalypse]

Does anyone on here really actually buy a vehicle based on the cost of rebuilding the engine?

You go to the dealer/Seller, get in it, either you love it or you don't, and it either checks out or it doesn't!

When I was in the market, didn't like TD5, felt like a pathetic little farm truck rattling around waiting for something to happen. I just flat out loved V8. In every respect! Simple. Happy, Personal choice. I don't give a mickey toss about how much a big end whatsamdoodle or a flippetty whidget cost, and I don't care about availablity of outback petrol, I'll improvise. But that's just me! Just have a spare driver's side door lock at the ready. That is so annoying! :D

[ozscott]

I do...because i keep vehicles for so long and so should many others, particularly if they buy second hand close to or around 200,000k or anyone planning on keeping the vehicle such that the ks are likely to get around or over 300,000k...not everyone buys new and rolls their (lease often) vehicles over every 3-5 years and 100,000k max...

Cheers