Spongy Brakes - check your vacuum booster is not full of oil

[Peter_OZ]

Dropped the D3 in for it's 48 thou service today. dealer rang me earlier in relation to the brakes which I had reported as "spongy".

I had new pads put on at last service.

apprantly there is a bush or a seal on the vacuum pump where by it suck oil from the engine and fills up the vacuum booster causing degraded braking.

So if anybody has this sysmptom it might be worth checking.

Think this should be a safety recall in my view.
cheers
Peter

[Peter_OZ]

guys, get your boosters checked by LR, why this is not a recall is boyond me. Maybe they will wait till the brakes fail totally and somebody is injured before acting.

BTW still have not had ours fixed and we are expected to drive it with faulty brake booster. already had one traffic bingle - now wheter it was brakes at fault is debatable, certainly did not help and that is for sure.

[powella]

I got mine serviced yesterday, I might give them a call and see if they checked it!

AP

[stig0000]

this is going to have to be a full recall!!! wev had to meany cars coming in with brakes that dont work, THIS IS RRS AN D3,, TDV6!!! things to look for are A GERGLING SOUND WITH THE BRAKES APLIED,, THE PEDAL GET HALF WAY AN STOPS DEAD, YOU CANT PUSH IT ENYMORE, an a decrease in braking perfomance, land rover say to just replace the booster, but now they are telling us to replace the vacum pump,, witch is one hell of a job, about 5-7 hrs depending,, well it was our first time at it:wasntme:,,

wat is happning is oil is going along the pipe from the pump an pooling in the booster, the most iv seen is almost 1L of oil in the booster!!, an since this is a vacum i dont no how it get up an around to the booster???? but this is going to have to be a recall, make shour you have your delealer cheak it at first sing of eny of the sings of brakes not working

[Peter_OZ]

only way they will do a recal is when it will cost them more not to do it or are forced to by public opinion.

Get vocal guys and get stuck into your LR dealer if you are having brake problems.

I reported the traffic bingle to my dealer last week and could hear his eyes look the other way even over the phone. They just do not want to know. :wasntme: :angel:

Which of course makes me :twisted:

oh well.
cheers

[CaverD3]

Undo the connect in the vacuum hose next to the booster and tap it onto your hand. If there is oil in there get it fixed.
Hadn't noticed any difference in mine until I checked for oil. It gradually becomes harder to brake as I noticed the difference when I had it done.

[Peter_OZ]

just got the D3 back after 3 days with them. They replaced the booster and did some work on the trans replacing a valve & different oil to get rid of the "thump".

Anyway brakes are still spongy, feel like they need bleeding so took it back to them this morning.

As for the trans it does not feel as smooth as it did before, maybe they used a heavier trans fluid??

Thump seems to have mostly gone however slowing for aset up lights yesterday I got this shocking shuddddderrrring which was like if you were i na manual car and were about to stop but failed to push in the clutch. It has not done it again. Any thoughts?

cheers
Peter

[CaverD3]

Firstly they need to replace not just the booster but the vacuum pump which is the cause of the problem along with the booster lines and master cylinder.
If they did not do this the problem will still be there and will get worse.
Take it back and tell them to fix properly. Did they give you print out of what they have done?
Don't know about different transmission fluid but the system needs to be flushed twice and the filtre changed to make any difference.

[Peter_OZ]

Firstly they need to replace not just the booster but the vacuum pump which is the cause of the problem along with the booster lines and master cylinder.
If they did not do this the problem will still be there and will get worse.
Take it back and tell them to fix properly. Did they give you print out of what they have done?
Don't know about different transmission fluid but the system needs to be flushed twice and the filtre changed to make any difference.

no idea really, the worksheet simply states fix brakes issue!

Will aks them what they actually have replaced and done on both.
thanks

[Peter_OZ]

got back from them this arvo and they have said that booster, vac pum and all the hose were replaced. However the brakes still do not feel right to me.

they put an acceloromoter on it and they said it met specs.

Will drive it some more and see how it is and if still not happy I will ask to drive a D3 from the dealer and compare then make them do a comparison.

[CaverD3]

If they are spongey they may have left some air in the system.
When mine was done they felt diffeent. Much less pressure was needed to get them to work.

[Peter_OZ]

If they are spongey they may have left some air in the system.
When mine was done they felt diffeent. Much less pressure was needed to get them to work.

that is what I told them that I thought they nededed bleeding but they were adamant they did not need bleeding for the work they did. ARRGGGGRRRR HHHHHHHH

So will nag them again next week, eventually they may listen and fix it properly.

[CaverD3]

Did they replace the master cylinder?
If they did then they need to bleed the brakes back to the ABS control valve. My dealer managed to leave some brake fuid around the connections.

[Peter_OZ]

dunno about the MC, they did not mention that

[CaverD3]

The brake problem is oil contamination of the booster and the seals. This can affect the brake seals and cause eventual failure. My dealer replaced the MC to ensure there was no possibility of compromised seals. Hence the bleeding back to the ABS unit.
I would push for a MC replacement on the grounds that do don't risk it with brake components.

[Peter_OZ]

ok shall do
cheers

[Peter_OZ]

well we got the D3 back from Australs, no differeence in the braking at all. the pedal is still spongy, feels like an old car then needs the brakes adjusted.

Australs state thee is nothing wrong with them and refuse to do anything further so I'm going to take it to non dealer LR repair place and see if I can get a 2nd opinion on it.

already had one bingle largely because of the crap brakes, do we have to have a fatality to get them to take action?:mad:

[CaverD3]

Peter,
Did they replace the master cylinder?
If they did get the other guy to do a bleed.

[Peter_OZ]

they wont tell me squat and just keep saying they are fine, well they are not fine and they arent the ones who have to drive the damn thing each day in heavy traffic.

I'm sick of dealing with them and will take it elsewhere and send them the bloody bill! :twisted::mad:

[CaverD3]

Did you ask australs what they did. Ask for it in writing. What work have they done on your car?

If they won't give it to you ring LCC and get them to get an answer.

[Peter_OZ]

nope nothing in writing which make me wonder if they did anything at all.

Will ring LCC tomorrow

[Peter_OZ]

just lodged a ticket with LR CC on the brakes and uneven tyre wear issue. Lets see what happens. :Rolling:

[Peter_OZ]

LR replaced the master cyl and the brakes seemed good for about a fortnight then reverted back to spongy though not as bad.

WTF???

Any thoughts?

[Jamo]

I got a polite 'bad luck' when I wrote them a letter as I'm out of warranty. They weren't interested in the brake issue at all. Obviously because it would cost a lot for a recall.

Fair enough I suppose as it's out of warranty and the implications of coughing up are too great. Poor business though. They've probably lost another sale.

[CaverD3]

The breaks are a safety issue did you point this out to LandRover and get them to acknowledge it as an issue?
How can we report the issue to force LR to make it a recall, what will it take? someone being killed due to poor brake performance.

booster issue recalls:

Nm/np Recall Notice - Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum

Ford - Ford recall puts brakes on diesel Focus and Mondeo - News (http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/B9936CBD4E39BADFCA2575BC00201BB5)

Ford?Ford BF Series II/III and FG Falcon E-Gas?Brake Booster Check Valve (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/966895)

Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited?Certain Ford LV Focus and MA Mondeo Models fitted with DW10 Diesel Engine?Brake Vacuum Pump (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/966400)

LandRover haven't done one recall on the D3.

Land rover (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952880/fromItemId/952855)

[Peter_OZ]

I got a polite 'bad luck' when I wrote them a letter as I'm out of warranty. They weren't interested in the brake issue at all. Obviously because it would cost a lot for a recall.

Fair enough I suppose as it's out of warranty and the implications of coughing up are too great. Poor business though. They've probably lost another sale.

ah not true, recite this to them. " Implied warranty, in other words when you buy a product, under common law the implication is that it will continue to be fit for purpose for areasonable time after the expiry of warranty." So if your vehicle is just out of warranty, even 6 months they must under implied warranty fix it. If they try and weasel out of it tell them you will take it to firstly consumer affairs then to small claims tribunal. Small claims can award up to $10k which will cover most repairs. I did that to a dealer on a 2nd hand surf I bought a few years back. Know your rights then be asertive in standing up for them.

best of luck

[Peter_OZ]

The breaks are a safety issue did you point this out to LandRover and get them to acknowledge it as an issue?
How can we report the issue to force LR to make it a recall, what will it take? someone being killed due to poor brake performance.

booster issue recalls:

Nm/np Recall Notice - Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum (http://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php't=3584)

Ford - Ford recall puts brakes on diesel Focus and Mondeo - News (http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/B9936CBD4E39BADFCA2575BC00201BB5)

Ford?Ford BF Series II/III and FG Falcon E-Gas?Brake Booster Check Valve (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/966895)

Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited?Certain Ford LV Focus and MA Mondeo Models fitted with DW10 Diesel Engine?Brake Vacuum Pump (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/966400)

LandRover haven't done one recall on the D3.

Land rover (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952880/fromItemId/952855)

maybe do a up a list of all the defects they are liable for and send it to every media outlet in the country, I'm sure one will run with the story.

[gps-au]

Really Guys,

I remember back in 1990 causing Nissan to recall for the GQ front upper panhard rod mounting bracket.

They definately DID NOT like the fact that the vehicle had been booked on a semi trailer back to the NRMA in Sydney for a full inspection especially considering I was in ALice SPrings at the time.

Thinking back, I wonder how many car carrier companies they contacted to find me in Alice and get to me BEFORE the vehicle was loaded !!

A temp fix was done, but they knew they had to do something before the vehicle reached Sydney. (& they did the recall).

[Jamo]

Thanks for the heads up Peter! I've checked up and will now get back to LR with a timeframe in which to respond before I take it further.

[lrdef110]

After reading Peter's post about 6 weeks ago, I had my local mechanic (Non dealer) check my booster. He sucked about 1 litre of oil out of it. As the local LR dealer had just handed back the LR franchise I contacted the dealer I purchased the Disco from (abt 1000k's away), explained the situation and that the vehicle was now 3 months out of warranty. They requested I bring the vehicle to them and they would see what they could do. I also got a quote for the replacement of the booster and vacuum pump which was $1,854. I asked whether they would do the replacement under warranty but they would not give any guarantee but alluded to the fact that there could be a split in the cost. Anyway LR accepted the warranty claim and replaced the booster and vacuum pump (which would have taken longer than normal as I have a second battery) at no cost at all to me(other than getting the vehicle to Brissy). Regardless to say I am impressed with the dealer & LR for this. I had contacted another LR dealer about 400 k's away and also explained the situation and because I had not purchased the vehicle there or had it serviced by them they did not want to know me from a bar of soap. They would not even contact LR about the fault. So from my experience I think a success in a claim has a lot to do with whether or not the dealer is prepared to go into bat for you.
But this really is an issue and should be a recall.
Regards, Barry

[CaverD3]

. They would not even contact LR about the fault. So from my experience I think a success in a claim has a lot to do with whether or not the dealer is prepared to go into bat for you.

A good reason to service with a dealer. They will be on your side in a dispute.

LR have their heads firmly in the sand on this one hoping no one notices, there hasn't been TSB issued for it even.

[lrdef110]

The replacement vacuum pump has a different part number so they obisously know ther is a problem.

[Peter_OZ]

well appranatly they replaced all of that on mine but they are stil rubbish so I have to wonder if they did indeed replace it or if they bogied it up to get rid of me

[Grappler]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread but this is what the search engine threw up

Because the brakes on 2006 RRS have got progressively spongier I took the master out this arvo with he intention of changing it out, but the booster had a good amount of engine oil inside.

Looking briefly at the manual the vacuum pump job is pretty daunting. It mentions dropping the rear of the tansmission, exhaust system off etc etc

Anyone done this job themselves or what would I expect to pay for a specialist now.

[LandyAndy]

Are you aware there was a recall and was yours done/effected????
https://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/968091
Andrew

[sniegy]

They replace a Hose & Valve. If required & the Vacuum Booster is full of oil, they also replace that.
Not the Vacuum Pump.

[Grappler]

Are you aware there was a recall and was yours done/effected????
https://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/968091
Andrew

Yeah, P017 was done on mine Oct 2010.

[Scouse]

It doesn't matter if it's been done before. It just means a few more hoops for the dealer to jump through with LR before they replace the parts again.

[Grappler]

The dealers indicated the recall work was too long ago. One did finally agree to have a look, following my discussion with LRA, but due to the urgent safety issue and the distance to the dealer, I ended up fixing it myself.

I put a catch can in the vacuum line to prove oil was no longer migrating up the line. No oil was caught. I subsequently changed out the pump valve and tubes as recommended in the recall procedure, anyway. The booster still intermittently failed. A new booster was sourced from UK and I changed it out the other day. So far the booster has worked as expected. Not a big job. Didnt even need to bleed the hydraulics as the ABS mod master and tubes just swing clear of the booster

My conclusion was the oil leak was corrected at the recall in 2010 but the contaminated booster was not replaced. The oil contamination has destroyed the rubber over time
The 'post mortem' picture shows the state of the old oily booster

[Fatso]

[QUOTE=Grappler;2388871]The dealers indicated the recall work was too long ago.


What an incredible statement , "the recall was done to long ago " (2010), as if that is reason not to attend to a lifesaving MANUFACTURERS fault .


Good on you for sorting this out yourself . Mine has been done too ( 2010) but may have to have look now after reading this , Thanks .