Touring 4wd, what would you buy?

[sclarke]

Guys, Gals,

Serious question that does not relate to a LR product...

If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...

It has to be capable off road and be reliable and good on fuel.

So in my eyes a Nissan Solid axle Poontrol or a Toyo Commercial rig would be my choice....

I love my LR, but lets be honest.... a new Fender is not yet known as reliable....

So lets not be Biased.... i want your answers to have merrit...

An older 300tdi Fender would be great... but getting long in the tooth...

Steve

(no i have not got cash)

[BigJon]

Traytop 4wd with a solid frame canopy. Roof top tent on top. Plenty of room underneath for fridge, etc.

Vehicle would be 4.2 turbo diesel Patrol or 4.2 / 4.5 turbo diesel Landcruiser.

This would be a good starting point.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3241/dscf2876.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2876.jpg)

[Blknight.aus]

any shed class landy from the SI all the way to a td5 deefer.

[Timj]

Sorry but I disagree, and have put my money into it already. Don't want to start a slanging match because different things are important to different people but reliability is not a reason to choose a non electric vehicle in my opinion. And it really is just my opinion, but you did ask :). A D3 is a fantastic touring vehicle and there have been many people who have successfully toured with them through all parts of Australia. I doubt there are any more of them get stuck with something that can't easily be repaired than the type of vehicle you mention. Different set of spares and tools required is all. I am sure the 200 series cruiser is probably suitable for others though I wouldn't buy one, it's not really their reliability or bushability at question as all modern vehicles are a lot more reliable than the old ones.

Communications to get you out of trouble when something goes seriously wrong is probably more important. It may not even be a car problem that you need it for.

Tim.

[Michael2]

Get a 300Tdi Defender, and for under $10K you can have a brand new motor & rebuilt gearbox. if you think they're too old - Or for a bit more, a 2.8HSE. I'd get a 300Tdi Defender and go over it & prep well.

For up to 2 people, I'd get a ute, as it's easier to custom set up, and there are hardly any parts on it to start with.

Benefits over a patrol / cruiser would include weight & fuel economy, plus you don't have to win lotto to be fully kitted out in one.

[Mick-Kelly]

A rebuilt V8 County on gas with an auto gearbox and lockers. Re trimmed interior and lick of fresh paint. Nice roof rack and ARB front bar with winch and a lovely set of HID Lightforce.

[inside]

If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...
A super payout? Has to be a Unimog.

YouTube - Tom ford tests the worlds ultimate 4x4, the Unimog

[dmdigital]

If money wasn't the issue I'd get a new Range Rover TDV8, buy a licence for the same computer system the dealers use (or get AutoLogic), a subscription to GTR and a SatPhone. The new Toyota's Workmates are about as electronic as the Td5 Defender, but at least with the Land Rover I know I can get support from the other end of a phone. Let's face it if you break down in a remote region, you break down and stop until parts get there regardless of which marque.

Mind you the other option would be a fully setup out Defender.

[Chucaro]

My Defender Tdi 300 is good enough if a lot of room it is not required other option a Isuzu 4WD truck like THIS (http://www.allterrainwarriors.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=28)

[Tote]

I've a d3 and the only limiting factor is the GVM of the vehicle. If I was to set up a dedicated tourer with a new base vehicle I'd have to look hard at a 130 with a custom tray/camper.
Second hand I'd probably agree that a 4.2 pootrol would be pretty hard to beat.
If I was going to build up an older vehicle I'd consider a F truck of some description. I've seen some pretty good efforts with older LWB f100s with imported dual cabs and customised bodies. The only problem would be sorting a reliable diesel driveline.

Regards,
Tote

[The ho har's]

well our D1 300 Tdi suited us for many years with Oz Tent, full drawer system, duel wheel carriers with Jerry can and high lift mounts.....3 batteries with 120watt solar panel, 50 litres water, under bonnet hot water and porta loo.............we went anywhere we wanted with no troubles..............


now we a little older......130 defender with our custom built slide on camper.........
120 watt solar panel with 4x100amp/hr battries, hot water system, 2x 50 ltr water tanks, gas cooker and of course portaloo we can still go anywhere with no effort at all.......

and of course both vehcles have some mods to make touring comfortable


not sure why you are asking about the "other makes of vehicles" though


Mrs ho har:angel:

[McDisco]

A super payout? Has to be a Unimog.

YouTube - Tom ford tests the worlds ultimate 4x4, the Unimog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9tPxNyhLp8)

OH yeah!! I would have one of the Black Edition unimogs! That with a bit of a tray back camper would be sweet! Even just as a play toy around Toolangi!! lol :D

Angus

[long stroke]

The county is great, Nice smooth quiet 3.9 isuzu, great off road supper reliable, lots of room, and great on fuel:)
Honestly i hate it how you can't see over the bonnat in a poootrol:mad:

TIM.

[sclarke]

Interesting, D1 dont have the payload capacity, 110 and 130 i find better for what i would want...

But the Toyo and Hissan i think are a stronger more reliable fix in the bush. D3's i think are still to small and i would not pull anything behind any of my cars if i was touring.... well, not today....

[djam1]

Nissans are stronger mechanically (ZD30 excluded) but they do have structural issues when used hard.
The old Toyotas were tougher structurally but had mechanical limitations the modern Toyotas have structural issues when used hard. I personally think a County with an Isuzu would be the pick in my view the only thing is they are getting a bit long in the tooth today. Get out of the eastern states and who fixes a modern Land Rover.
A 4.2 GQ Nissan is a good vehicle if not overloaded but you cant really beat Toyotas network so its a hard call really

[Newbs-IIA]

75series :D :D :D

As much as I love Milo, a well setup 75series troopy/ute with the multi point 1HD-T out of an 80series or just a turbo 1HZ would be the go. I have seen some awesome ones. No offence to landrover but there just isn't the parts assistance when abroard as opposed to 1HZ cruisers which are basically every second car you see out west.

Now lets get real crazy :p

45series trayback or troopcarrier body with GQ pootrol diffs, defender transfer gears, cummins diesel (with exhaust stack), WHITE sunrasiers with micky-t BAJA rubber, parabolic springs, 6 poster bullbar, 4x lightforce 240s, landcruiser grey paint, custom camping tray/storage system at rear, lightforce shooting spotlight, rooftop tent and tinny... list goes on hahah

might be a bit outragous but if one has that sort of money... :p

[Mick-Kelly]

I think every vehicle has specific weaknesses, some of the stuff i have come across with the jeep has me scratching my head in astonishment. Some bad some good. It comes down to what vehicle you want for ergonomics then spend the money to make it right and rectify any weaknesses.

[DeeJay]

I'd get an 85 County,get someone like Fred Smith to bung in a Chev 350, convert it to a tray, long range tanks, gas for around populated area's, maxi drive's & diff locks etc.
Rewire, new instruments and Bobs your uncle.
Come to think of it, someone on this forums done it.:angel:

[Col.Coleman]

Already have it. Defender 130.

I often dream about this very scenario. My Td5 130 is great for touring. My personal quibbles seem to be addressed in the latest model, which are air-con, and ecu placement.

In my ultimate dreams I would have a puma 130, roof top tent on custom built tub(just like what I am building for mine) for point to point touring, and a 110 wagon towing a Kimberly Kamper for base camping.

All vehicles fail. It depends on who you rely upon. Carry essential spares you think you will need, and have a good contact to courier you parts if you need them. For this you will have to be mechanically savvy. If you want to rely on dealers to order parts and do the work, then of course LR in probably not for you. Hence the proliferation of Toyota dealerships.

It has often amazed me how supposebly reliable toyota and nissan are supposed to be, yet there are parts galore, so obviously they must be needed on a regular basis. So many mechanics have worked on them and know how to fix them from experience, so they can't be that good:p

I have to make room for 4 people when touring though too.

CC

[Blknight.aus]

monies no object?

then Im having an m548.

all wheel drive, with a mechanical 2 stroke v6 diesel and a mechanical winch on the front good for a 6t single line pull what more, aside from a manual gearbox, could you want.

[Maggot4x4]

Defender 130 Dual Cab with Range Rover Interior / ergonomics and a 4BD1T

[RichardK]

I've thought about this on and off, I would buy an HSE TDV6 Disco, beautiful touring vehicle, I've done the CSR with no problems and my last one did 164000 K's with NO breakdowns.

[Spenboyd]

We did a year wandering around this big old lump of erosion in a 4bd1 County, had 200 litres of diesel about the same of water, safari draws, on demand water pumps, roof top tent and 120 watt solar panels that ran everything very comfortable.
Did all of the major stock routes and remote area tracks and spent a fair bit of time following the coast from broome to cairns.
Repaired about twenty tyres but if you get on to them early it was generally only a tube fix.
The car was absolutely bullet-proof....even the air-con worked most of the time.
rangie in the pic was also 4BDi

[V8Ian]

well our D1 300 Tdi suited us for many years with Oz Tent, full drawer system, duel wheel carriers with Jerry can and high lift mounts.....3 batteries with 120watt solar panel, 50 litres water, under bonnet hot water and porta loo we went anywhere we wanted with no troubles..............


now we a little older......130 defender with our custom built slide on camper.........
120 watt solar panel with 4x100amp/hr battries, hot water system, 2x 50 ltr water tanks, gas cooker and of course portaloo we can still go anywhere with no effort at all.......

and of course both vehcles have some mods to make touring comfortable


not sure why you are asking about the "other makes of vehicles" though


Mrs ho har:angel:
Too much information :D:p

[THE BOOGER]

BLK KNIGHT most people dont know what a m548 is but i have lic for them and fuel is only problem but a 2000 lt bladder in the back helps:cool: also its a supercharged v6 and auto can be fun

[V8Ian]

Money no object...............any thing you want, age wouldn't be an issue,
renew, replace or recon.
Personally I would go auto diesel Disco as a base, fully rebuilt,then start the serious spending.

[V8Landy]

I would go a TD5 130 with after market seats and some sort of tray top camper on the back. Money no object it would have lockers, Hi tough axles reduction gears, 4.11's with 33' muddies. Thats just for starters:D

[disco2hse]

Too much information :D:p

:Rolling: :Rolling: :Rolling:

[willem]

Guys, Gals,


If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??




I reckon electronic is getting so reliable that its safe to take an electronic vehicle long distance.

I need to transport seven people - me, the wife, and 5 of our kids - and tow a camper. The answer is just obvious - a D3! The car seems to have been designed for the job! 7 seats designed in. Spacious and comfortable. All the bells and whistles. Superb on road dynamics, and awesome off road. Great tow vehicle. And lots of cup holders. Proven reliability record. The ideal for me would be the HSE V8 with an LPG conversion to extend the range, or a TDV6.

Long distance touring demands that you take along the appropriate spares. In this case you would also have to take along the right electronic diagnostic equipment, and the knowledge of how to use it. But that's no different than taking along, for instance, spare radiator hoses. You have to know how to install them too. And you need the right tools. If you want to tour long distance in an electronic vehicle and you want to be able to repair it out there you have to learn how to do it and have the right gear. That's all.

To me the answer for my needs is obvious - D3.

Willem

[Disco_owner]

mmmm , if I had a few hundred thou lying around , I would buy a descent property and build a massive shed with a hoist , air tools etc etc, and convert my Rangie to Isuzu 4bd1T with LT95 and other military hardened components , custom build rear shelf by your truely , Rooftop tent . lockers , and have so much more satisfaction in building it than buying anything off the shelf.

[drivesafe]

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...

Sclarke, what do you base this crap on. Honestly, I’m so fed up with people carrying on about how unreliable modern vehicle electronics are but what is this based on, cause it sure as hell is not based on fact.

This is like the crap that you should only jump start modern vehicles using spike suppression jumper leads or you could blow up the vehicle’s computer.

Now consider the fact that hundreds of thousands of people have jump started new vehicles with ordinary jumper leads, where are all the stuffed computers.

Like the fictitious need to use ONLY suppressed jumper leads, sorry sclarke but your sort of statement is based on nothing more than ignorance and/or jealousy because modern automotive electronics is far more likely to warn you of pending problems before it happens, rather than with older vehicles where you know you have a problem because it’s already BROKE.

As for the Money-is-no-problem scenario, while I know the TDV8 RR would be by far the most comfortable 4x4 on and off road and would easily equal a D3 off road, to be completely realistic, the D3 has one MAJOR advantage over the RR and the one thing that would easily swing me in favour of the D3 over an RR and thats the fact the the D3 has a MUCH bigger cargo area.

The ultimate choice is a D3, it’s a no brainer and the are NO rice burners that would come near the D3 for choice.

[Rangier Rover]

mmmm , if I had a few hundred thou lying around , I would buy a descent property and build a massive shed with a hoist , air tools etc etc, and convert my Rangie to Isuzu 4bd1T with LT95 and other military hardened components , custom build rear shelf by your truely , Rooftop tent . lockers , and have so much more satisfaction in building it than buying anything off the shelf.

That hasn't worked for me. They're all full of hay and junk.:(

My Idea of the ultimate tourer would be a duel cab chop on a RRC sitting on a 130 chassis with a Tray. Portaled Nissan diffs and 4BDI T with a Isuzu truck gear box.

Tony

[Disco_owner]

That hasn't worked for me. They're all full of hay and junk.:(

My Idea of the ultimate tourer would be a duel cab chop on a RRC sitting on a 130 chassis with a Tray. Portaled Nissan diffs and 4BDI T with a Isuzu truck gear box.

Tony

:D

I know what you mean ,you'll have to clear out some of the stuff that you're hording and don't need , like the complete disco sitting in the shed;)

[Mick-Kelly]

Sclarke, what do you base this crap on. Honestly, I’m so fed up with people carrying on about how unreliable modern vehicle electronics are but what is this based on, cause it sure as hell is not based on fact.

This is like the crap that you should only jump start modern vehicles using spike suppression jumper leads or you could blow up the vehicle’s computer.

Now consider the fact that hundreds of thousands of people have jump started new vehicles with ordinary jumper leads, where are all the stuffed computers.

Like the fictitious need to use ONLY suppressed jumper leads, sorry sclarke but your sort of statement is based on nothing more than ignorance and/or jealousy because modern automotive electronics is far more likely to warn you of pending problems before it happens, rather than with older vehicles where you know you have a problem because it’s already BROKE.

As for the Money-is-no-problem scenario, while I know the TDV8 RR would be by far the most comfortable 4x4 on and off road and would easily equal a D3 off road, to be completely realistic, the D3 has one MAJOR advantage over the RR and the one thing that would easily swing me in favour of the D3 over an RR and thats the fact the the D3 has a MUCH bigger cargo area.

The ultimate choice is a D3, it’s a no brainer and the are NO rice burners that would come near the D3 for choice.

Cars that rely on heavy electrics are fantastic, while theyre under warranty. Do you honestly think someone 50 years from now is going to pull a D3 out of a barn somewhere chuck a bit of fuel in give it a push and drive away. Ooops i forgot you cant clutch start them. The reason people are gun shy is because when something simple fails it costs mega bucks to fix it. And yes i've been there and done that. Well over a thousand bucks to diagnose and replace a five dollar crank angle sensor. I wil never understand the need for a high tech multiple ECU reliant engine in vehicles designed and advertised as expedition capable. I've got no problem with fancy gear in town cars but not in 4wds that are continually exposed to harsh environments. KISS exists for a reason.

[Chucaro]

Cars that rely on heavy electrics are fantastic, while theyre under warranty. Do you honestly think someone 50 years from now is going to pull a D3 out of a barn somewhere chuck a bit of fuel in give it a push and drive away. .........

50 years :eek: you are very optimistic say 15 :)

[willem]

Cars that rely on heavy electrics are fantastic, while theyre under warranty. Do you honestly think someone 50 years from now is going to pull a D3 out of a barn somewhere chuck a bit of fuel in give it a push and drive away.

What you can or can't do with a D3 in 50 years time is totally irrelevant to the question. If I'm still around in 50 years I'll be 106 and pulling D3s out of sheds will likely be low on my list of priorities! But I reckon you might just be surprised!

I'm interested in what I can tour with now. D3s are brilliant tourers and are demonstrating their reliability consistently. There are of course, breakdowns, like any other car. But I know of no D3 that has been abandoned in the Simpson desert because of the fabled catastrophic electronic failure we hear so much about. Yes I've heard of the one that drowned its computers and couldn't proceed, but at the depth it was in not much else would have survived either - not even a Nissan Patrol.

Really, we don't have any option. Cars are going more electronic. The LC 200 shows that even Toyota has had to go down that path, and Nissan is going that way too. Land Rover has a 15 year jump on them! And as all cars go electronic, either we are going to adapt and learn the new skills required, or we are going to get stuck in some time warp nursing along some great but aging Rangie/ Series Landie/ County/ Defender/ Disco. That might suit you and that's fine, but for a tourer for the general population it just doesn't work.

A good example of this is the forum I was on a few years ago when there were rumours that the new Rangie would have independent suspension. There were many posts bemoaning the lack of off road ability this would cause. People said they would never consider a 4WD without beam axles. But when the new Rangie came out with independent suspension it had far better offroad ability than the car it superseded.

So it is with electronics. Fears of 'catastrophic failures', usually based on the experience of early electronic cars, abound. But as time goes and systems settle down and issues get sorted the electronics get more reliable and they can do things that non electronic systems can't, and they become accepted as part of the norm, with the occasional breakdown seen as just another breakdown problem to be resolved.

The future is electronic. Get used to it or you will be stuck in a time warp nursing along an aging relic.

Willem

[Mick-Kelly]

The future is electronic. Get used to it or you will be stuck in a time warp nursing along an aging relic.

Willem

:) and thats why in ten years countys will be selling for more than your D3. Some of us dont like a throw away society and want a vehicle that actually lasts. Not talking about 'reliability' all vehicles can and will break down. The simple truth is that a simple vehicle is much simpler (cheaper) to fix. I like electronics for purely comfort items but not for vital systems. Give me a simple engine, gearbox and live axles. Something that i can service at home and not void a warranty by touching something that isnt painted yellow.
And BTW i thought the whole idea of owning a land rover was 'nursing along an aging relic' perhaps you should have bought a Toyota. :twisted:

[Chucaro]

Willem, the problem with electronics today, not in 5 or 50 years time is the cost of servising them in a remote area.
A pensioner or low income earner cannot take the vehicle to a dealer and pay $80 and hour.
A non electronic diesel vehicle it is cheap and easy to repair. To me the Perkins, old Isuzus, Toyotas, etc and also the Tdi 200/300 are the way to go and also are the more popular choice of vehicles by experienced explorers world wide. If in doubt about this claim, have a look on the international forums.
Cheers

[Ace]

I would have to say a D3, electrics dont scare me, plenty of mechanical problems can occur to more simpler vehicles that cant be repaired on the side of the road.

I would be a D3 TDV6 SE with Terrain Response and a E-locker and then buy a new off road camper trailer to compliment it.

[Ace]

Interesting, D1 dont have the payload capacity, 110 and 130 i find better for what i would want...

But the Toyo and Hissan i think are a stronger more reliable fix in the bush. D3's i think are still to small and i would not pull anything behind any of my cars if i was touring.... well, not today....

Have you seen the space in a D3 Steve? I reckon you could fit as much if not more in a D3 than you could in a GU patrol or 80/100 series cruiser. The D3 makes alot better use of the space it has than the other brands.

But if i didnt get a D3 i reckon i'd splash out on a new 130 defender and make a custom back with all the gear in the back. With the 130 i dont think i would bother with the trailer, with the extra carrying capacity of the 130 and the space ontop for the roof top tent you wouldnt need it.

But i reckon a D3 would be a far more enjoyable thing to drive all loaded up.

[willem]

:) and thats why in ten years countys will be selling for more than your D3. Some of us dont like a throw away society and want a vehicle that actually lasts. Not talking about 'reliability' all vehicles can and will break down. The simple truth is that a simple vehicle is much simpler (cheaper) to fix. I like electronics for purely comfort items but not for vital systems. Give me a simple engine, gearbox and live axles. Something that i can service at home and not void a warranty by touching something that isnt painted yellow.
And BTW i thought the whole idea of owning a land rover was 'nursing along an aging relic' perhaps you should have bought a Toyota. :twisted:

I don't see owning a Land Rover being about nursing along and aging relic. I like Landrovers for what they can do! I love my P38 because its a great car that I love to drive. Learning about how it works so that I can keep it going without spending lots of money is the price I pay for owning one.

But others have their joy in the actual working on their cars. That's fine and a valid option. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about an ideal tourer, where money is no problem. And a modern 4WD lie the D3 that is just awesomely capable is an ideal tourer.

I know the Leyland brothers toured around Australia in a Land Rover with drum brakes and carburetors. But I don't want to put myself and my family through the pain. If I had the funds it would be D3 for me. As it is it will have to be the P38 - not that I'm complaining!

BTW, the comment about the Toyota was unkind.

Willem

[Chucaro]

There are 2 new 130 at the local dealer but........ after reading all the problems regarding quality control on them i keep my Tdi 300 even if I win lotto.
I am dreaming with a reliable Defender with a TDV6 fitted on it :cool:

[Ace]

There are 2 new 130 at the local dealer but........ after reading all the problems regarding quality control on them i keep my Tdi 300 even if I win lotto.
I am dreaming with a reliable Defender with a TDV6 fitted on it :cool:

if you are going to dream scrap the TDV6 and dream about a new TDV8 instead :D Now thats a dream

[Chucaro]

if you are going to dream scrap the TDV6 and dream about a new TDV8 instead :D Now thats a dream

Now seriously, do you think that the suspension of a Defender will be ok for a V8? If yes then that will be the "mother of all options" :D

[Mick-Kelly]

BTW, the comment about the Toyota was unkind.

Willem

'The future is electronic. Get used to it or you will be stuck in a time warp nursing along an aging relic.'

Pot, Kettle...........

Given my choice and unlimited funds it would be a county V8 on gas with an updated interior. It comes down to what you like. I like camping and roughing it. I find enjoyment in the experience. My best memories come from these experiences. Some would prefer traveling from hotel room to hotel room but thats not for me.
I prefer well made and basic items. I prefer steam trains and Massey Ferguson tractors to John Deere and diesel / electric. Efficiency is not my thing, quality and doing something right the first time is. I am not a fan of change for the sake of change. Therefore if i had unlimited funds i would build the vehicle that makes me happy and will keep on making me happy.
A friend of ours is a mechanic at MR automotive which is a well know and reputable landy specialist here. We were talking about this a while ago. His ultimate choice of vehicle was a County with a turbo diesel isuzu. From someone who works on all types of landys all day, every day that says something.

[willem]

'The future is electronic. Get used to it or you will be stuck in a time warp nursing along an aging relic.'

Pot, Kettle...........

Fair comment. Sorry!


Given my choice and unlimited funds it would be a county V8 on gas with an updated interior. It comes down to what you like. I like camping and roughing it. I find enjoyment in the experience. My best memories come from these experiences. Some would prefer traveling from hotel room to hotel room but thats not for me.

I prefer camping to motels too!




I prefer well made and basic items. I prefer steam trains and Massey Ferguson tractors to John Deere and diesel / electric. Efficiency is not my thing, quality and doing something right the first time is. I am not a fan of change for the sake of change. Therefore if i had unlimited funds i would build the vehicle that makes me happy and will keep on making me happy.


Fair enough! To each his own.



A friend of ours is a mechanic at MR automotive which is a well know and reputable landy specialist here. We were talking about this a while ago. His ultimate choice of vehicle was a County with a turbo diesel isuzu. From someone who works on all types of landys all day, every day that says something.

It says more about his personal preferences than anything else.

We all pays our money and makes our choices. All are fair choices. But if we are talking about ideal tourers then the D3 is a valid choice, just as a Defender - or for that matter, a Toyota or a Nissan - is a fair choice.

And I will agree with the comment on the TDV8. That, in a D3, would be an awesome machine!

Willem

[Ace]

Now seriously, do you think that the suspension of a Defender will be ok for a V8? If yes then that will be the "mother of all options" :D

Its a 3.6L V8 diesel, its some fancy smancy graphite carbon material so is lighter than a general cast iron block, i cant see it being that much heavier than a TDV6 Or a TD5 or a Tdi for that matter.

I reckon a defender 130, with all the bits and a TDV8, yes thats my option if money was no object

[Timj]

The whole problem with this thread is that it is impossible for us not to be biased as the original post asked. What we each would buy is what would suit us and is therefore biased. Don't let's start personal attacks based on the fact that my choice would be different from yours.

I have worked with computers my whole working life and that is now more than thirty years so I have seen many changes and have seen how much more reliable they have become. To the point now where hardware is almost bulletproof, and if you need it to be bulletproof you just spread the same software over multiple pieces of hardware. So for me electronics aren't scary and I have done all sorts of camping and travel with kids and now we are pretty much back to just two of us and I like a bit of comfort. I like a vehicle that doesn't leak and is quiet on the highway. I like to get out at the end of a long day and not fall over because my back and knees are too sore. That's just me though, you do what you like and I won't get upset, but the original post was asking what I would do.

And I reckon that in 50 years I will be able to just pull a D3 out of the shed and plug a new battery in and get it started (why bother pushing it?). What possible reason is there that it would not work? Clean fuel and injectors maybe but electronics don't fail when they are just sitting doing nothing.

Tim.

[V8Ian]

Just out of interest, can a 6' + person lie down in the back of a D3?

[Timj]

I'm 6'4" and I just fit. My daughter is 5'11" and slept quite comfortably in the back. That was without moving the front seats so if you move the seats forward and put your feet down that end it would be fine. Perfectly flat floor which is great.

Tim.

[Rayngie]

There you go, ask a simple question, get a slanging match in return....

anyway,

For me, a Current model Patrol, 4.8 semi auto , leather etc, very powerful car, very comfortable, and pretty basic underneath, i drove one a while back for a couple of months, loved it, damn thirsty though..but money no object eh?

[Blknight.aus]

BLK KNIGHT most people dont know what a m548 is but i have lic for them and fuel is only problem but a 2000 lt bladder in the back helps:cool: also its a supercharged v6 and auto can be fun

ITs not super charged, its blown, theres a difference....

[V8Ian]

ITs not super charged, its blown, theres a difference....
Detroit? 53, 71 or 82?

[brianwood]

Call me a biased Aussie, but I'd go for an Oka over anything.
I've never driven one, just like the look, the idea and the thought of supporting Australians.
They're one tough looking rig!

[willem]

Call me a biased Aussie, but I'd go for an Oka over anything.
I've never driven one, just like the look, the idea and the thought of supporting Australians.
They're one tough looking rig!

A what? :confused:

Willem

[Treads]

A what? :confused:


http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/Oka/PiCs37/oka3.jpg

[V8Ian]

A what? :confused:

Willem
Looks similar to to a FC, but bigger. Popular with tourist operators.

[Treads]

I honestly don't think I'd find a perfect vehicle :angel: I like the comfort of my Disco, so I reckon I'd love a D3; However I really want a dual cab ute with a hydraulic crane mounted behind the cab in the tub. The only decent sized dual cabs that I can think of are the F-Series and the 130. The Effies are just too big for most bush tracks (and I'd cry if I scratched it :( ) so 130 HCPU it is. Back to square one, 'cause I want something comfortable.....

I'm a hard man to please :wasntme:

[Chucaro]

A what? :confused:

Willem
Have a look HERE (http://www.oka.com.au/) ;)

[brianwood]

Think of the endless possibilities with this beautiful beastie...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[willem]

Think of the endless possibilities with this beautiful beastie...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Looks good, but its not the kind of vehicle I want. Mind you, it looks very capable, which is probably why a lot of tour companies use them as one post said. But its not what I want.

So my vote is still with the D3 - preferably with the TDV2 or the petrol V8.

Willem

[Ace]

Think of the endless possibilities with this beautiful beastie...

http://www.oka.com.au/images/photogallery/tourbus.jpg

I agree, they are pretty cool. I did a tour in one years ago, heaps of room in them. They dont move at warp speed but have good low range gearing and the good old perkins diesel engine.

Problem with them is though that they are made from bits of this and bits of that. I drilled the tour operator with questions about his and he said it was hard at first but after a while he sussed out where all the bits came from and then could just go to each manufacturer and get them.

[hook]

A unimog, to big, part would be deer.
Oka, yes, never been in one, but do like them.
Mitsabishi canta 4WD
all the above no good in towns and car parks.

BUT

130 with the 2.8 TVG.
is my pick

or bring back the Liama.

[sashadidi]

There you go, ask a simple question, get a slanging match in return....

anyway,

For me, a Current model Patrol, 4.8 semi auto , leather etc, very powerful car, very comfortable, and pretty basic underneath, i drove one a while back for a couple of months, loved it, damn thirsty though..but money no object eh?

when overloaded ie 750kg they break back suspension!!!

[sashadidi]

Guys, Gals,

Serious question that does not relate to a LR product...

If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...

It has to be capable off road and be reliable and good on fuel.

So in my eyes a Nissan Solid axle Poontrol or a Toyo Commercial rig would be my choice....

I love my LR, but lets be honest.... a new Fender is not yet known as reliable....

So lets not be Biased.... i want your answers to have merrit...

An older 300tdi Fender would be great... but getting long in the tooth...

Steve

(no i have not got cash)
For Load carrying and uncompilicated (non electronic) and designed for very hard conditions (minus 50 degrees celcius upwards to deserts) and proven as in this video
A Russian Kamaz truck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAsnIB018WI&feature=PlayList&p=848C0F20286F51A6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3]YouTube - [Long Way Round

they also won the Paris -Dakar
or a Ural truck

[garryc]

Interesting, D1 dont have the payload capacity, 110 and 130 i find better for what i would want...

But the Toyo and Hissan i think are a stronger more reliable fix in the bush. D3's i think are still to small and i would not pull anything behind any of my cars if i was touring.... well, not today....
The D3 has more space inside than the 200 Cruiser and can tow 3500kg :D

[garryc]

There you go, ask a simple question, get a slanging match in return....

anyway,

For me, a Current model Patrol, 4.8 semi auto , leather etc, very powerful car, very comfortable, and pretty basic underneath, i drove one a while back for a couple of months, loved it, damn thirsty though..but money no object eh?
Met a couple of guys recently with 4.8ltr Patrols(manuals) and one said he gets 700km out of his 210ltr tank=30ltrs/100km :o The problem is to get the range from the fuel you carry. And my TdV6 has more torque than the 4.8's :)

[yeboants]

my choice would have to be a 110 kitted out.. or even one of these (even though an army spec) - just like the look of it

http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/images/g_wagon_1.jpg

[sclarke]

Yeah this is "Slanging Match", I cant believe some people can take a comment on modern electrics being unreliable to heart...

FACT, i have a Electronics Degree, been working on computers and AV equip since 1993.
That makes me qualified enough to have seen alot of things fail that should never fail....

My point being....

Take a new RR or Disco or 200 series toyo ect into the middle of Aust.... i dont mean alice springs or Bourke, i mean really outback... that to me is what a touring 4wd is for.... to get away from the populated area's....
Then it breaks down.... could be simple, could be an ECU that got wet from a crossing too deep.... then you have to try to get it going..... or if your lucky, you limp into a 3 person town, where the local publican knows a cocky who can fix anything.... well The cocky turns up and looks at this new fandangled electronic gizmo and says... best you get a tow 2000km to the nearest major town.....

If it was a Mechanical injected or basic Carby engine, then you might have a shot at fixing it.... Drive line is never an issue.... you never break both diffs at the same time... well rarely....

its more the stuff that tells it to go and stop and lift and lower.....

So Stop with the "where do you get your Crap from"

And your just "Jealous"

Ya Right..... i'm Jealous...... ive got a new car its only 9 months old and its great... sadly its a Mazda....
Ive had New LUXO cars.... so a $90k Volvo or a $150k RR is not any different in my eyes....

Grow up you old Coote and stop being biased against a car you love and everyone hates....

[Chucaro]

Thanks mate for your comments, I cannot write it as good and agree 100% ;)

[I Love My Landy!]

Originally quoted by Mick-Kelly.

"Given my choice and unlimited funds it would be a county V8 on gas with an updated interior. It comes down to what you like. I like camping and roughing it. I find enjoyment in the experience. My best memories come from these experiences. Some would prefer traveling from hotel room to hotel room but thats not for me.
I prefer well made and basic items. I prefer steam trains and Massey Ferguson tractors to John Deere and diesel / electric. Efficiency is not my thing, quality and doing something right the first time is. I am not a fan of change for the sake of change. Therefore if i had unlimited funds i would build the vehicle that makes me happy and will keep on making me happy".


This is exactly how I feel as well Mick-Kelly! And I drive a County V8 on gas with D1 seats!

[TimNZ]

If I was towing a camper trailer a D3. Otherwise a new 110 or 130, and if I had the money it would be fitted with the TDV6 and 6 speed manual out of the D3.
As for the electronics, I'll take the risk. Besides, if money was no option electronic engine sensors/actuators are pretty small spares to carry.

Cheers,

Tim

PS It would have to be a LR no matter what, anything else is crap. Yes I wear a rose coloured monicle on my one eye.

[Tote]

In reckon the choice of vehicle would depend greatly on the number of people you are carting about. Assuming that you dont want to tow anything then adding a couple of >20KG kids will dramatically change the amount of "stuff" you need to carry. All of a sudden the sleep in the back and throw the fridge on the front seats theory no longer applies.
When I was a young bloke I could go away for a week on Fraser and sleep in the back of the truck (at that stage a company owned Maverick with the back seats removed), eat some canned stuff and weetbix and the occasional counter meal and be happy.
With a wife and two kids the same sort of break requires more space which requires a tent and then you've got to stow the tent somewhere etc etc.
With a family I sytill reckon a dual cab 130 or an F truck is the best compromise. Maybe a dual cab 110 but they wont bring them out :mad:

Regards,
Tote

[Forest]

Used to have a hj holden. Left me stranded heaps of times. Modern vehicles are more reliable than older ones. Not better, not worse, just more reliable.

In a D3 specifically, electrics are very rarely the reason that you can't get going. if they decide not to move, it will be mechanical. In the outback, getting parts for any vehicle will be fun. However, D3s are no harder to fix mechanically than any other vehicle.

Is anyone going to change their mind? no. Those that love the oldies will continue to do so. My favourite car - xp falcon. My regular drive - D3. Has it let me down. Not yet. Does it do touring with ease. You bet.

What would I choose to tour with if money was no option - FFRR TDV8:cool:

[Blknight.aus]

Detroit? 53, 71 or 82?

all the MxxxA1 varients run as standard the 6v53 which as standard comes in a blown configuration but by changing the cam you can have it super charged and then you can bolt on a turbo charger as well.....OR....

you just hoik the 53 and drop in a 71, 82 or a 93 in the 6 pot config given that its the same block pattern with different heads and injectors.

[Tote]

In reckon the choice of vehicle would depend greatly on the number of people you are carting about. Assuming that you dont want to tow anything then adding a couple of >20KG kids will dramatically change the amount of "stuff" you need to carry. All of a sudden the sleep in the back and throw the fridge on the front seats theory no longer applies.
When I was a young bloke I could go away for a week on Fraser and sleep in the back of the truck (at that stage a company owned Maverick with the back seats removed), eat some canned stuff and weetbix and the occasional counter meal and be happy.
With a wife and two kids the same sort of break requires more space which requires a tent and then you've got to stow the tent somewhere etc etc.
With a family I still reckon a dual cab 130 or an F truck is the best compromise. Maybe a dual cab 110 but they wont bring them out :mad:

Regards,
Tote

[drivesafe]

I’m convinced that half you lot are more interested in playing out some Crocodile Dundee fantasy than having anything to do with the facts.

And sclarke, I’ve been working with automotive electronics for 35 years and modern automotive electronic components are not only heaps more reliable than their mechanical counterpart, and thats a documented fact, the field of automotive electronics is advancing at a phenomenal rate, yet while there have been continuing improvements, most of the great automotive mechanical developments were achieved before the first world war and that also is a fact.

D3 or FFRR any day, and not only get me there and back without suffering anywhere near the number of breakdowns that the pensioner class of vehicles with suffer, a D3 or FFRR will do it SOOOOOOOOO much more comfortably.

[Rayngie]

My Dad's bigger than all your Dad's.....

[Leo]

I agree with drivesafe. If a D3 or other modern LR goes wrong, chances are it's a mechanical issue. The electronics are much more reliable than they used to be and can be easily reset as well.

Fault readers and the like are also more affordable now - something like the BBS faultmate can do pretty much everything your dealer's IDS can.

[beforethevision]

I have to admit, if I had unlimited money, I would live out of it for a while.

Leaving me with no option. Twin cab ute of course!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/04/1237.jpg

Or if you wanted a lighter vehicle, for a brisk run up the mountains...

http://www.loprais.cz/loprais/rubriky/vozidla/img/asistence1_4v.jpg

Cheers!

[EchiDna]

the electronics thing...

simple analogy - who has a 3.5 inch floppy drive in their PC these days? or a serial port? yet these were the ONLY mode of transferring files from machine to machine 10 or so years back... lans were rare except in the corporate world - email was limited so moving files meant moving disks...

ok now fast forward 5-10 years... who has a piece of electronic whatever that can interface with your D3/RR/TD5 and rectify any fault? chances are by then everything will be a totally different connector again? are they reliable? sort of/yes/maybe? - rectifiable in the medium to long term? I think not... now if landrover used a generic OBD port, possibly a different story.

Meanwhile my 4BD1 will idle on by rattling itself to bits over the next century or so being powered by anything remotely close to cooking oil/diesel/bio...

[dangermousehouse]

My Dad's bigger than all your Dad's.....

:Rolling::Rolling:

.....but, my mum is bigger than your Dad

[Timj]

And my Grandpa used to be bigger than the lot of them :p.

But Sclarke I am curious why you started all this since you have already made up your mind. You weren't asking for people's opinions you were asking for them to agree with you. And so seem to be all the others that do agree with you. Some of us are challenging your stated opinion about current vehicle electronics being unreliable or not bush touring capable. Are there facts to back up either side? I would like to see real statistics. I think Drivesafe may have some but there is also a lot of personal experience on here and Disco3 that tends to suggest electronics are not the problem some people believe.

But I still say that just because my choice is right it doesn't make yours wrong (or vice versa). Horses for courses and all that. If we all get out there and enjoy it does it matter how we do it?

Tim.

[drivesafe]

I think a quote from President Franklin Delano Roosevelt covers this thread perfectly "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." :D

[Psimpson7]

ok now fast forward 5-10 years... who has a piece of electronic whatever that can interface with your D3/RR/TD5 and rectify any fault? chances are by then everything will be a totally different connector again? are they reliable? sort of/yes/maybe? - rectifiable in the medium to long term? I think not... now if landrover used a generic OBD port, possibly a different story.



TD5's at least do use the generic OBD11 port.

[TimNZ]

TD5's at least do use the generic OBD11 port.

So does the TDCi

[mrapocalypse]

Perentie 6x6 LRPV with the dirt bike and some goggles..... and some sun screen and a really big stereo with the latest Prodigy Album and a 50L Waeco full of good stuff. But without that tragic Isuzu engine in it. I would have a LAND ROVER Twin Turbo V8 with a sports exhaust! And a ducted Aircon into the footwells!

Nissans and toyotas are so damned boring. Who cares if you can go touring in some dreary Japanese car! EVERYBODY else does that - What's the point.

In a Land Rover it's a REAL Adventure. It feels like a real adventure, it LOOKS like a real adventure! You might not actually get home:D

Park your Twin Turbo Diesel V8 LRPV at the Birdsville pub, let track 11 on Prodigy album fade out.... They can keep their reliability brag..... We are here to PARTY Land Rover Style!.

[Scallops]

Well I'd still use the shed in my carport - a Puma Defender. I already have driven it in the real outback - and whilst things did go wrong - it made it.

Any Defender is a good choice as a tourer - massive payload, loads of usable space, great fuel economy, go anywhere, and I reckon it's really comfortable for long stints behind the wheel.

And whilst there may be some drawbacks in regard to the electronics argument, I think it's countered somewhat by considering that a newer vehicle is going to likely be in better overall mechanical condition anyway, so less likely to suffer major dramas.

The other thing is for me - if it breaks down it breaks down - I'm just not a mechanic in any sense of the word - so for me it really doesn't matter if it's mechanical or electric - I'll be walking either way!

Anyhow - we'll see about this new Defender, 'cos I'll be using Grover for crazy outback trips till the day I push up the daisys. Maybe I'm an optimist, but it's done 36 000km and that motor has never missed a beat - I'm confident that will continue.

[V8Ian]

all the MxxxA1 varients run as standard the 6v53 which as standard comes in a blown configuration but by changing the cam you can have it super charged and then you can bolt on a turbo charger as well.....OR....

you just hoik the 53 and drop in a 71, 82 or a 93 in the 6 pot config given that its the same block pattern with different heads and injectors.
As you would be aware Dave, all Detriots are super charged........turbo is optional
BTW did you know GM are happy to rate a 6V53 to 350 BHP in marine/stationary application, not bad for a little engine designed 70 odd years ago.

[Chucaro]

Going back to 1968 I used to service and repair 4 GM/Detriot engines, 1 4Cyld and the others 6 cyld.
They were used for running generators on a textile factory 24 hours a day no stop. Excellent engines and very reliable.
The 6 cyl were ex Greyhound buses.
The only problem with them was the preventative maintenance and oil change. Was a tedious job cleaning the outside part of the cyl trough the inspection ports.

[Mulgo]

I would tackle this question from another angle, then the vehicle choice might become an easy one:

While touring, where do you want to sleep & cook.
1. in a Hotel/Motel & Restaurant
2. in a Caravan/Camper Trailer
3. in a Tent/Roof Top Tent
4. in the vehicle.

Vehicle for Option 1: probably any vehicle of the major companies would do as long as it is very comfortable, dust and waterproof, a good air-con and stereo equipment.

Vehicle for Option 2: vehicle with good towing qualities and excellent fuel economy - which would leave the bigger engines out.

Vehicle for Option 3: vehicle with loading space for the tent and kitchen equipment. In case of a roof top tent you need excellent fuel economy as the additional 40 cm on the roof (excluding roof rack) will make you use more fuel - again would settle for a smaller engine.

Vehicle for Option 4: Now we get down to only a few. Troopie, Defender 110/130 (or the bigger ones like Orka, Unimog, etc.).

For us it is definitely option 4 and I would still go with a Defender and Pop Top setup.
Having travelled extensively in a 110 through all sort of remote areas and terrain and now in a 130 throughout Australia. Just lovin' it. The Td5 engine was/is in both vehicles very reliable.

In regards to vehicle reliability and mechanics along the way.... on our latest trip through Australia we passed three Troopies with broken gearboxes, they all had to way for a mechanic ... . So agree with the comments made earlier on, whatever major happens to your vehicle, most probably you could still need wait for the parts to come to you.

Cannot wait 'till Easter, to get out there again.

[Chucaro]

good point Mulgo, I would like to add thet we overlooked another 2 categories:
1)people who have mechanical/electronics skills to do the own repairs
2) people that only can change tyres and do only the basic services and depend on mechanical services by a 3rd party because knowledge or health

On the categorie 2 is when I believe that a vehicle with a non electronic management engine have the edge.
There are a lot of farmers and mechanics in a remote area that can make a Perkins or simmilar diesel engine go but do not have the tools or knowledge to fix a electronic problem.

So if we go by your "Vehicle 4" a Defender/County up to 1998 will be a good choice

[Scallops]

On the categorie 2 is when I believe that a vehicle with a non electronic management engine have the edge.
There are a lot of farmers and mechanics in a remote area that can make a Perkins or simmilar diesel engine go but do not have the tools or knowledge to fix a electronic problem.



True, but vehicles which are non electric are getting on a bit in 2009 - they would be + 10 years old at least - so I think I'm better off in a new Defender, albeit electronic, but with everything in new/good order. :)

[willem]

There are a lot of farmers and mechanics in a remote area that can make a Perkins or simmilar diesel engine go but do not have the tools or knowledge to fix a electronic problem.



I wonder if we are short changing some of the farmers and mechanics out there. They are part of the developments in the world too and they too will be keeping up in some way or another. They have to get modern gear themselves to remain competitive and they too will be becoming familiar with electrics/ electronics.

Willem

[Chucaro]

True, but vehicles which are non electric are getting on a bit in 2009 - they would be + 10 years old at least - so I think I'm better off in a new Defender, albeit electronic, but with everything in new/good order. :)

I have done 110000 km with my old disco Tdi 1998 and only changes the timing belts.
Have a look the problems with the new Puma, some of them with 6000 km or less.
Some owners changes 3 dofferntials so far in less tha 20000 km. Not the ideal vehicle to go bush :(
There are more that 2 new Pumas here in the local dealer with factory trained mechanics that are out of the street because luck of spares.

[Mulgo]

Point taken, Chucaro. An electronic control unit cannot be fixed without having the necessary equipment.

However, I would like to know how many of those Land Rover ECU's have broken down while touring (I am only talking about the standard LR ones, no upgrades nothing). I think it's fair to say that normally its not the electronic, but the stuff around it which fails.

Then, when you are touring with a vehicle. That vehicle becomes your home away from home. You make sure you service it regularly and at recommended intervals get the electronic checked. This way you ensure that you are not getting stranded out in the bush.
Also, touring is different than hard core 4x4'ing. While touring you probably think: 'Do I really need to drive through that deep waterhole...'

At the end, with all vehicles it comes to that: If you look after it, it looks after you.

Cheers,

[Chucaro]

I wonder if we are short changing some of the farmers and mechanics out there. They are part of the developments in the world too and they too will be keeping up in some way or another. They have to get modern gear themselves to remain competitive and they too will be becoming familiar with electrics/ electronics.

Willem

Of course thare are farmers with the economical resources to purchasing or lease new equipment and special tools but they are not the majority.
I have a lot of respect for them, they are very resourceful people. I know what farmers can do form my overseas experience when I worked for John Deere and here in Oz when I done the Agricultural Mechanization studies at Richmond, NSW

[Scallops]

I have done 110000 km with my old disco Tdi 1998 and only changes the timing belts.
Have a look the problems with the new Puma, some of them with 6000 km or less.
Some owners changes 3 dofferntials so far in less tha 20000 km. Not the ideal vehicle to go bush :(
There are more that 2 new Pumas here in the local dealer with factory trained mechanics that are out of the street because luck of spares.

I'm fully aware of these vehicles and their faults - but there may be many reasons why these issues are occurring, unrelated to the vehicle's actual engineering - I'm not convinced there is anything inherently wrong with the new vehicle - mine's fine.

[sclarke]

Many of you have a Valid point and i still dont know what i would have. It would have to be strong, Deisel as LPG in the bush is scarse. Big payload, but not over the top.
Ive had F100 and a F350, Chev C20 and a few LR and Toyo now...
Only LR ive owned that is close the perfect tourer is a TDI Fender....

But back to the slanging match as i have a valid point that most of the Boffins have forgotten about....

Electronics is far better than it used to be... YES.... but the failure is not the Hardware.... is the Software..... Prime example.... who has a PC that fails nowdays as the Vid card or Memory card causes it to lock up??? Not many.... But who has a PC that crashes and locks up, but a software re-install fixes it???? Mmmmmmm i know mine does and i'm running one of the most common OS's on the market....

But if i was to fire up my Unix PC..... it will run for weeks and months with no issues.....

But reliability.... Who has a New Fender that has not been back for a recall or fix???? I know of a couple in sydney that has a very early new generation Fender and its been in the dealer for 1/4 of its life....

I have not made my mind up on a rig, but a 130 is looking more like a platform i could start off with as i wuld be touring as a family of 4... Shame its not 110 long....lol

[Mulgo]

mine is a 110 long - meaning a 130 station wagon..... travels and sleeps 4 comfortably...

[willem]

Electronics is far better than it used to be... YES.... but the failure is not the Hardware.... is the Software.....

But if its software issues then taking along a good diagnostic/ software reset program and associated hardware as part of your toolkit solves the problem. And you get all the benefit of the computer controls ...

Willem

[mrapocalypse]

Land Rovers don't run on Windows. Comparing OBC to Windows is a mistake! The Mars Rovers are computer controlled.

SO!

For the benefit of this thread why don't we assume that the chosen vehicle is well maintained, and has had a history of preventative maintenance by a qualified, resourceful and experienced mechanic. That all the bugs have been ironed out, as in most long term vehicles, and that before we go out on our tour we have a nice healthy list of phone numbers and a bin of parts deemed most likely to fail or useful in a crisis!

Then we can, as we do in reality, assume to a high degree, that said dream machine is going to be reliable and we can enjoy the trip in our Twin Turbo LRPV.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/04/959.jpg
:D

[D110V8D]

I prefer to hear the engine, smell the fuel, taste the dust and feel the sweat running down the crack of my BANANA.:angel:

I'm not kidding.........well I could do without the sweat in me Banana:)

Touring the country in an airconditioned, leather seated and computer controlled car is not for me.

Flame on!:twisted:

[DirtyDawg]

An L322 and a chain of 5 star hotel rooms..;)

[hiline]

mick way way to much info about the sweat :eek:

[D110V8D]

mick way way to much info about the sweat :eek:

Aww c'mon Raymond.....you know you love it.:D:D

[sclarke]

I'm with Mick, KISS

[sclarke]

No, Kiss in Sequence Sweety

[camel_landy]

In answer to the original question (haven't read the other posts to see wgich tangent we've all gone off on...) I'm another one which would go for a Unimog.

A long wheelbase crew-cab is what I've got a hankering for at the moment. I've got my eye on a 1700 for sale over here but I need to get my HGV license if I'm to drive it... :twisted:

M

[justinc]

What you can or can't do with a D3 in 50 years time is totally irrelevant to the question. If I'm still around in 50 years I'll be 106 and pulling D3s out of sheds will likely be low on my list of priorities! But I reckon you might just be surprised!

I'm interested in what I can tour with now. D3s are brilliant tourers and are demonstrating their reliability consistently. There are of course, breakdowns, like any other car. But I know of no D3 that has been abandoned in the Simpson desert because of the fabled catastrophic electronic failure we hear so much about. Yes I've heard of the one that drowned its computers and couldn't proceed, but at the depth it was in not much else would have survived either - not even a Nissan Patrol.

Really, we don't have any option. Cars are going more electronic. The LC 200 shows that even Toyota has had to go down that path, and Nissan is going that way too. Land Rover has a 15 year jump on them! And as all cars go electronic, either we are going to adapt and learn the new skills required, or we are going to get stuck in some time warp nursing along some great but aging Rangie/ Series Landie/ County/ Defender/ Disco. That might suit you and that's fine, but for a tourer for the general population it just doesn't work.

A good example of this is the forum I was on a few years ago when there were rumours that the new Rangie would have independent suspension. There were many posts bemoaning the lack of off road ability this would cause. People said they would never consider a 4WD without beam axles. But when the new Rangie came out with independent suspension it had far better offroad ability than the car it superseded.

So it is with electronics. Fears of 'catastrophic failures', usually based on the experience of early electronic cars, abound. But as time goes and systems settle down and issues get sorted the electronics get more reliable and they can do things that non electronic systems can't, and they become accepted as part of the norm, with the occasional breakdown seen as just another breakdown problem to be resolved.

The future is electronic. Get used to it or you will be stuck in a time warp nursing along an aging relic.

Willem


...but, I LIKE my aging relic:o:wasntme:

JC

[Piddler]

Land Rovers don't run on Windows. Comparing OBC to Windows is a mistake! The Mars Rovers are computer controlled.

SO!

For the benefit of this thread why don't we assume that the chosen vehicle is well maintained, and has had a history of preventative maintenance by a qualified, resourceful and experienced mechanic. That all the bugs have been ironed out, as in most long term vehicles, and that before we go out on our tour we have a nice healthy list of phone numbers and a bin of parts deemed most likely to fail or useful in a crisis!

Then we can, as we do in reality, assume to a high degree, that said dream machine is going to be reliable and we can enjoy the trip in our Twin Turbo LRPV.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/04/959.jpg
:D

At least you could get some food to live on from this

[Pedro_The_Swift]

keep your unimogs,,,
one of these please,,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/04/924.jpg

Imagine the view from a deckchair on top of one of these babies :)




I have wondered if there has been an imported one run the Finke?

[camel_landy]

Yeeeessss.... MAN make some nice bits of kit too.

Anyway, here's a pic of what I want as the next project:

http://www.ormocar.de/uploads/pics/G268_01.jpg

M

[sashadidi]

keep your unimogs,,,
one of these please,,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/04/924.jpg

Imagine the view from a deckchair on top of one of these babies :)




I have wondered if there has been an imported one run the Finke?
Yes agree re my previous post:
For Load carrying and uncompilicated (non electronic) and designed for very hard conditions (minus 50 degrees celcius upwards to deserts) and proven as in this video link you can put your defender in the back of one and carry on!!!(at about 6.30 minutes in video)
A Russian Kamaz truck

YouTube - [Long Way Round] Road of Bones

they also won the Paris -Dakar
or a Ural truck

[Pedro_The_Swift]

link not working:o

[mrapocalypse]

TRy this

YouTube - Russian Kamaz truck, Dakar rally

[willem]

Running a bit rich there at times.

He's punting it along at a fairly quick rate for a big truck, though.

Willem

[blitz]

If money was no issue then my first one would be a uni mog fitted with a professionally built camper on the back.

Second and far far cheaper would be an OKA NT with the cummins donk, allison auto, diff locks etc and camper back. A U.S. company is now making Portals for the diffs now

Reality probably first up a 4.5t 4wd mitsubishi Canter auto or Isuzu cab over with camper on the back, which is probably what I will eventually get as it would be cheaper than setting up a 130 defender

[Landy Smurf]

defender the best stock vehicle there is and the money you save on buying one you can upgrade it

[sashadidi]

link not working:o

Link fixed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAsnIB018WI&feature=PlayList&p=848C0F20286F51A6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3]YouTube - [Long Way Round

[Disco95]

I reckon I'd keep th D1, spend a few (more) bucks on it and tow a Saturn Camper or something similar.

[mrapocalypse]

OK, if we were to be "Practical" then it would be an OKA for me. Perfect size and I like the look of them, and they are made in Australia!

[carjunkieanon]

6x6 Pinzgauer or 6x6 Perentie as a base vehicle for me.

[philco]

got to be a unimog the best for off and on road come standard with portal axles and can fit a PTO winch to front and back from factory

[Chucaro]

Keep it simply,cheap and economic to own, have this
The link is HERE (http://globalxvehicles.com/vehicle-2)

http://globalxvehicles.com/images/_client/1236979339_unit-73/73inactionresized.jpg

[numpty]

Td5 130 Crew Cab with Trayon camper for me.

[The ho har's]

Td5 130 Crew cab with Trayon camper for me.


orr Td5 130 crew cab with a ho har camper for me


Mrs ho har:angel:

[Slunnie]

Guys, Gals,

Serious question that does not relate to a LR product...

If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...

It has to be capable off road and be reliable and good on fuel.

So in my eyes a Nissan Solid axle Poontrol or a Toyo Commercial rig would be my choice....

I love my LR, but lets be honest.... a new Fender is not yet known as reliable....

So lets not be Biased.... i want your answers to have merrit...

An older 300tdi Fender would be great... but getting long in the tooth...

Steve

(no i have not got cash)

To be honest.

I think that the ultimate touring vehicle is the Toyota Troop Carrier.



What would I buy?

I would wait for the new airbag dash which is now in the country and just about to be released by Toyota and I would buy the 76 series GXL.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Chucaro]

To be honest.

I think that the ultimate touring vehicle is the Toyota Troop Carrier.



What would I buy?

I would wait for the new airbag dash which is now in the country and just about to be released by Toyota and I would buy the 76 series GXL.



I just wonder which kind of grog you have indulged or if it is something wrong with the tap water :confused:

I you say the old 4.2 turbo diesel I will accept that you can have some points there but the last V8?

Now, the Tdi is getting old! come on, there are heaps of 109 with old engines in Africa doing what they suppose to do EXPEDITIONS! So a Tdi is more than capable to do what we want.

So any old Defe with a recondition Tdi 300 or the Isuzu are the best for sure!

[Slunnie]

I just wonder which kind of grog you have indulged or if it is something wrong with the tap water :confused:

I you say the old 4.2 turbo diesel I will accept that you can have some points there but the last V8?

Now, the Tdi is getting old! come on, there are heaps of 109 with old engines in Africa doing what they suppose to do EXPEDITIONS! So a Tdi is more than capable to do what we want.

So any old Defe with a recondition Tdi 300 or the Isuzu are the best for sure!
I made no comment about the Tdi and if you think that a vintage car is more reliable than a new vehicle then thats fine. IF you really think that the tdi is a better motor than the TDV8 then you are seriously bias or you haven't gotten out and driven a TDV8.

Likewise if you think the performance of the Tdi is satisfactory then thats also fine, but from everything I have seen and what I have driven, the tdi does not meet any of my performance requirements except fuel consumption. Admittedly it does for some, but I'm not one of them.

If you think that you could live with the benchmark NVH levels of an Isuzu then thats also fine, I most certainly can not live with the outrageous vibrations or having absolutely everything in the vehicle rattling like crazy because of it. Again, some may find this acceptable, but I'm not one of them.

If you think that the TDV8 is a poor motor, then you need to drive one. Performance wise it totally blows away the Tdi, Td5 and Isuzu. The Turbo diesel 6 I haven't driven and the NA 6 is a dog. If talking about reliability, then the tdi is definately no saint either, a quick look at the timing belts will verify that.

[geckos]

my choice would be my current TD5 defender.

with the list of goodies currently finding its way onto it.
HD axles, CV's, 4.11, 1.22 gear ratios, soundproofing, seats, chipped, intercooler, exhaust, EGR thingy, 255/85r16, roofrack, rooftopper, IPF HIDs, airlockers, and heaps more.

one day i will post pics.....

cheers geck

[scarry]

To be honest.

I think that the ultimate touring vehicle is the Toyota Troop Carrier.



What would I buy?

I would wait for the new airbag dash which is now in the country and just about to be released by Toyota and I would buy the 76 series GXL.

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/shed/images/uploads/big/2236_9619_UNI_0059.jpg


I unfortunately have to agree 100%,after another cape trip in the D2,which has never let me down,i have been wondering what to replace it with for touring,& have come to the same conclusion.
Or maybe a 76 series trayback with canopy & rooftop tent.

But they are damm expensive......

Umm & with the optional diff locks

[dullbird]

I made no comment about the Tdi and if you think that a vintage car is more reliable than a new vehicle then thats fine. IF you really think that the tdi is a better motor than the TDV8 then you are seriously bias or you haven't gotten out and driven a TDV8.

Likewise if you think the performance of the Tdi is satisfactory then thats also fine, but from everything I have seen and what I have driven, the tdi does not meet any of my performance requirements except fuel consumption. Admittedly it does for some, but I'm not one of them.

If you think that you could live with the benchmark NVH levels of an Isuzu then thats also fine, I most certainly can not live with the outrageous vibrations or having absolutely everything in the vehicle rattling like crazy because of it. Again, some may find this acceptable, but I'm not one of them.


If you think that the TDV8 is a poor motor, then you need to drive one. Performance wise it totally blows away the Tdi, Td5 and Isuzu. The Turbo diesel 6 I haven't driven and the NA 6 is a dog. If talking about reliability, then the tdi is definately no saint either, a quick look at the timing belts will verify that.

isn't it this motor that is having seriously reliability issues?

[Slunnie]

isn't it this motor that is having seriously reliability issues?
I think according to the internet every 2nd one blows up. I think in the real world that this isn't the case at all.

Its a little bit like this how this forum would lead you to believe that every single TD5 explodes with cracked heads, spun oil pump bolts and failed injector harnesses like its going out of style and if anything at all on the motor faults then it can't be fixed in the bush. Its clearly not the case, but thats what you would believe.

[dullbird]

But doesn't PAT work with them? he is for ever saying how bad the new ones are

[Chops]

Well Clarkie,,,

I've tried to post a pic up here for you 3 times now, and every time my comp crashes,, :(

But,, I'll tell you anyway,, :D (why,, cause I can ;))

A guy called Rob Gray, (has his own site you can check it out later,,) well, he built an awesome rig based on an old Inter fire tender 6x6,, he stretched it and turned it into a motor home.
Its only slow, but its got everything you need, including the million views from its rear platform/balcony,,

This is my kinda rig,,, (but I'll still have to tow around a Landy so I can play :D)

http://www.robgray.com/graynomad/wothahellizat/wot1/index.php

[Chucaro]

I made no comment about the Tdi and if you think that a vintage car is more reliable than a new vehicle then thats fine. IF you really think that the tdi is a better motor than the TDV8 then you are seriously bias or you haven't gotten out and driven a TDV8.

Likewise if you think the performance of the Tdi is satisfactory then thats also fine, but from everything I have seen and what I have driven, the tdi does not meet any of my performance requirements except fuel consumption. Admittedly it does for some, but I'm not one of them.

If you think that you could live with the benchmark NVH levels of an Isuzu then thats also fine, I most certainly can not live with the outrageous vibrations or having absolutely everything in the vehicle rattling like crazy because of it. Again, some may find this acceptable, but I'm not one of them.

If you think that the TDV8 is a poor motor, then you need to drive one. Performance wise it totally blows away the Tdi, Td5 and Isuzu. The Turbo diesel 6 I haven't driven and the NA 6 is a dog. If talking about reliability, then the tdi is definately no saint either, a quick look at the timing belts will verify that.

The original question it is a bit contradicting

Quote:
If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...
End of Quote

The Toyota that you like does not meet the criteria, it cannot be fixed by a non Toyota dealer

It has to be capable off road and be reliable and good on fuel.
The Toyota drinks by the gallon, we are not 100% sure about if it is reliable

So if we are going to dream the Unimog is the best by far

You have tons of money so a bit of fuel does not matter
The vehicle have the best warranty and service available world wide so you only need a sat phone to call

Ok, it is bulky, the get a Mercedes-Benz G-Wagen EDITION30 Special Edition
as you only vehilcle or tow it behind the Unimog :D
The G Wagen alone is a very capable vehicle and if I have the money I buy it before the Toyo

Now if we ignore a bit the original questions and we speculate that we blow all the money in the vehicle, then a old vehilce with a simple rebuilt engine which any tractor/diesel mechanic in the bush can repair then we have to go back to the isuzu, Tdi300, perkins, old 4.2 T Toyotas ,etc.
Why a Defender? because the payload of this vehicle it is not match by the other common 4x4
Why I like the Tdi 300? because the economyis fantastic and the performance of the engine is good enough for the purpose for wich the vehicle was built.
If it is good for the UK army have to be good for a tourer vehicle as well ;)
The Puma, New Toyo, etc do not meet the criteria

[crash]

This is question that I ponder over alot.
My main choice of a base vehicle is either: 1) Chevy Suburban 2) Unimog 3) Oka or 4) MAN

[willem]

isn't it this motor that is having seriously reliability issues?

According to a Toyota dealer principal I was talking to the excessive oil consumption problem has been fixed by a new seal in the turbo. Coolant leakage problems on the turbos can be an expensive and time consuming repair. Otherwise reliability wise they are OK.

Performance wise I was in a Troopie with the V8 diesel on several occasions while on the Tiwi Islands and they pull like a train. Great performance! This was the single turbo version that is in the Troopies. The 200 series has a twin turbo version.

But repair one out in the field? Just take one look under that bonnet and you will forget the idea real quick! It is a very big and complex motor and it fills the engine bay like no motor I have seen since the V12 Jag. I wouldn't want to repair that in the field either.

The dealer mentioned above said that if the top coolant outlet on the turbo started to leak the repair involved removing the turbo itself and that is an engine out job! That is a workshop job only, especially with this engine.

I can quite seriously say that working on my P38 in the field would be a much less daunting proposition than working on the Toyota V8 diesel!

Willem

[disco2hse]

This is question that I ponder over alot.
My main choice of a base vehicle is either: 1) Chevy Suburban

Ahhh. okaaay. :eek:

Alan

[PAT303]

For the cost of a troopy you could buy a kitted out defender.Toyota's are just an engine,like HSV's and nothing more.Lastly if I spent 70 grand on a vehicle I would not want to spend another 2-3 to upgrade the GVM just to carry what a defender can straight off the showroom floor.The defender is the best choice. Pat

[Chucaro]

regarding the timing belt on a Tdi 300 I cannot see what it is the issue :confused:
I have a Disco which I bought with 98000 km, I changed the timing belt and the next cahange was @ 180000 km What it is the problem with that?
As long as the owner do a proper preventative maintenance the Tdi is ok like any other engine that it is look after.

[JamesH]

I think, threads like this one are useful because you get an idea of what is needed to prepare your vehicle and what you would do when out in the bush if something went wrong with the vehicle and how you need to prepare for various scenarios.

But as for vehicle choice, it is very simple, you go with what you WANT. I tour in Defenders because they are what I like/loce. Like many here I think the fear of computer components is over done (that's coming from a 300tdi driver).

I can learn a lot be a thread that tells us the most sensible tourer would be, say, a 200 or 70s series. I'd read about the high and why but there is NO WAY I would follow this advice.

The head (research/knowledge/common sense) is to be used to prepare for a decision. The actual decision is best made with the guts or the heart in the light of your research Houses/cars etc are for the most of us the biggest financial decision we'll ever make; they far too important to base on mere logic alone.

[austastar]

A very interesting thread folks.
Having a vested interested in the subject, it was read with interest.
A bit of back ground, and how I came to my decision (which is set in still soft concrete).
Before kids:
Motor cycle touring, Tassie (home state), big one round the block in '76, Birdsville, Laura, Gibb River Rd, and the Ghan back to Adelaide, (suspension problems) back via Murray Valley, 25,000km - lots of fun.
Kids:
Car camping, occasionally borrowing parent's camper (which we inherited), borrowed/hired caravans, big and small tents.
Post kids:
Now use the camper, 2 ton Toyota truck with built on 'house'.
Advantages:
No set up time.
Drive it like a car (albeit s-l-o-w)
Almost 4wd (low gearing, massive clearance, but bogs easily)
Very comfy, kitchen/dining/sleeping
12L/100km average
Did I mention comfy (in all weathers)
Camp any where, suburban street, car park, lane way, lay by, picnic spot, local rec area, lookouts, quarries, roadworks sites, bowls clubs, local halls, cemeteries, or any of the more usual remote bush sites.
Disadvantages:
Limited external storage, (tools, chains, fire irons etc all live 'inside')
Height clearance, multi story car parks are out of the question.
Can't leave the 'camp' behind to go for supplies.
No easy transition from inside to outside living space, steps and a narrow door. (An awning would be good, but would get wiped off the side with branches)
Narrow tracks and low branches are a pain.
What do we want next:
The truck is now 34 years old, still very reliable, but we are retiring soon and want a new vehicle to last us till we finish driving and pass it on to our kids, like my parents did for us.
We like the idea of 'no canvas' but don't like the idea of all that surface area over the top of the truck with many of the motor homes or slide-ons.
We have decided that we can live with a slightly smaller space than we have now
We have looked at trayons, poptops, ute campers that flip over sideways/backwards, roof top tents with living/kitchen under neath and all have their advantages and would suit for extended mainland touring.
All these require some setup time and are reasonably obvious if you are trying to 'stealth camp', and some what open to passing pedestrian traffic if stopped in the carpark area of the start of walking tracks. Not a major problem for us, but a little off putting.
We were most impressed with the Innovan concept of a fiberglass shell that lifted up to raise the roof and the interior layout seems very close to what we want.
There is loads of external access for storage, and some very clever ideas used in accessing storage inside that appeals to us.
I have some ideas that I would like changed which should not cause the manufacturer any major headache.
I would change the gas stove for one of the webasto diesel hotplates and include the space heating option in the same installation.
It would be nice to not have the gas fumes in the van, and the necessary ventilation (read cold draft) to keep it safe, and a fresh supply of ducted warm air sounds like an absolutely essential luxury.
The other feature of the external kitchen with stainless stove, barbecue and sink I think are totally unnecessary for what we want, nice as they are.
I think a sliding bench top in the same position would suffice, and we would use the Coleman dual fuel stove out side, and a plastic tub is better than a stainless steel sink for washing up outside as it is quieter and doesn't take the heat out of the wash-up water as quickly.
I think we will have to live with the ss sink inside, but we do have to check out the performance of those ubiquitous little caravan taps fitted as standard. To me they look like 'toys' and will provide too much 'squirt' vs 'flow', but I could be wrong.
There are some ideas I want in the electrical dept, I want to take 240V from the electrical inlet and have it in a single power point in the front storage area. Then I will plug the rest of the van in to either it, or the inverter from the storage batteries. That way I can use the couple of power points in the van on mains or inverter power.
I have some similar ideas on the plumbing as well, definitely 2 independent water tanks, a self priming sureflow pump, and the ability to draw water from an external source to either fill the tank, or shower without contaminating the potable water.
This way a bucket of warm water from the fire can be used straight through the shower.
I have thought about engine warming the water with a glind or similar, but I can see no sense in warming water with diesel when there is wood available. I will consider a 10L hot water tank in the chassis, may be warmed by a glind or the exhaust pipe and be completely separate from the innovan. Still in the concept stage of that though.
Solar panels:
The Innovan is made of curved surfaces, and I have yet to see how the manufacturer will incorporate any panels on the roof. I am imagining having them mounted on the roof of the ute, and folding them out when stopped. Again, still concept stage on that one.
The Vehicle:
Ok, it has to be a 4wd ute flat tray to take the Innovan.
That distills the problem to Lancruiser, Patrol or Landrover.
I was worried about the dissimilar wheel track of Mr T, no worries on the vehicle itself, apart from the fact that a V8 was more expensive to register, and it seemed a little excessive.
Mr N. made a nice ute with a 4.2L motor, but changed it before I was ready to buy.
Landrover seemed to not be making flat trays anymore, so they had been left out of the research for a while, but recently were advertising the new D110 and D130 as a flat tray.
A quick analysis of vehicle weight vs load carrying capacity and wheel base vs tray length put the D130 at the top of the list very smartly.
I had no preconceptions of which vehicle I wanted, and my only 4wd experience is with Lancruisers in the fireservice.
So:
My ideal vehicle on which to spend my hard earned Super payout on looks like being a D130 cab-chassis with an Innovan for most of our touring.
This gives me the option for unloading the Innovan and going light weight with a tent and boxes to do some of the dessert tracks like the Canning and Gun barrel, and I'm quite happy to do that. I can't see the need to take 1/2 tonne of 'house' over difficult and fragile country.
It also gives me the option of leaving the Innovan at Cairns and hiring a camper trailer for Cape York, a bit of luxury for a trip I really want to do.
Keeping some of the weight off the vehicle, and comfy accomodation/living quaters - what more could a bloke ask for.
Cheers

[klappers]

Having watched, thought, read, asked, begged and borrowed a LOT on this topic. My situation came down to the simple things. You could have all the money in the world, but if you are broken down in the middle of nowhere with the truck not going, then you are behind the eight ball to start with. So, for me, it would have to be a simple donk. By simple I mean no electronic injection. So that rules out the D3, 200, GU, 75, 76, Puma 110, 130. These "brands" of truck, Nissan, Toyota, Land rover and Merc seem to be the only real options if you want to head bush. What puts the land rover ahead I think is that these things have been used and abused EVERYWHERE. You name it, Land rover has done it. Now I am not a Land rover junkie, in fact far from it, I just like the simplicity of it all. If it doesnt really work well, then you dont need it. It is the simple things. And for my money I think that is the best option, simplicity. So, my options even if I had a million dollars would be, 40 series with a 3B Turbo (ute troopie), 60 series, 80 series with the 1HZ, 110 Tdi, 130Tdi, GQ 4.2 (not 2.8), HZJ75, HJ75 (both turboed), maybe a 300tdi disco, an older OKA with the 4.2 perkins, Unimog (which would be the coolest by far even if you couldn't fit it everywhere). It needs to be simple with less electronics because bumps and stuff (think water and mud) kill electronics. Simple. Trying to diagnose a broken wire on the side of the road in the middle of no where aint fun. I work in the mining industry doing hydro blasting, and the best units we get (think of temperature extremes from -2 in winter to 50 degrees + during summer) are the simple ones. No electronics, if it starts it runs, if it runs you make money, if you are making money everyone is happy. Anyways, love the thread and keep the posts coming...

[Chucaro]

A very well done analysis Austastar.
We use to have a Mazda T3500 bus converted to a motorhome and it have all the advantages and points against it like you rig.
I am trying to find an expedition vehicle that would give me the advantages that give us the Mazda during bad weather and be able to set camp in any place (not off road) and I cannot find any:(
Your selection of the LR130 and try top is very close but do not have access to the cabin from the camper which was a very good security issue for us when we was on the road for 2 years. Couple of times this advantage saved us from a nasty situation.
I guess that a rig similar to Mulgo's 130 will be very close to what we would like to have but, compromisses have to taken into consideration so our Defe 110 is the best for us :D
We are looking into building a compact caravan like the Conqueror Comander because we do not contemplating in selling the Defe which have only 108000 km.
It would be very hard to find a 130 crew cab for the same money and same condition.

[Chops]

A very well done analysis Austastar.
We use to have a Mazda T3500 bus converted to a motorhome and it have all the advantages and points against it like you rig.
I am trying to find an expedition vehicle that would give me the advantages that give us the Mazda during bad weather and be able to set camp in any place (not off road) and I cannot find any:(
Your selection of the LR130 and try top is very close but do not have access to the cabin from the camper which was a very good security issue for us when we was on the road for 2 years. Couple of times this advantage saved us from a nasty situation.
I guess that a rig similar to Mulgo's 130 will be very close to what we would like to have but, compromisses have to taken into consideration so our Defe 110 is the best for us :D
We are looking into building a compact caravan like the Conqueror Comander because we do not contemplating in selling the Defe which have only 108000 km.
It would be very hard to find a 130 crew cab for the same money and same condition.

Is there a reason why you couldn't put one in, even if you have to have it engineered,, its probably not hard to do, I've seen it done on other vehicles, but I dont know if they had to be engineer passed,,:confused:

[PAT303]

I would much rather go bush in an older deefer that has had money spent on it by a good mechanic,JC is a person in point than a newer vehicle I know nothing about.It is also a must to know how to trouble shoot problems so if it does happen,and being bogged,rained in etc comes into it you know what to do.In my travels I have met people without a spare tyre,people with a spare but no brace,people with a winch but no idea how it works,a winch with no snatch blocks,tree protectors the list goes on.The outback is a great place but it doesn't suffer fools. Pat

[Chucaro]

Well Chops, it have to be build for that purpose because the trayon type of camper are not made for that.

[olbod]

I am quite happy with my 3 door D1.
It is simple, uncomplicated, comfortable, easy to repair and reliable. I would not hesitate to head off anywhere in it. It is also my daily.
With the rear seats removed there is plenty of storage space and no useless rear doors.
I dont like the LT77 box thats in it, I want to replace it with an auto.
I would like to have the 5 ltr donk in it, that is in Bro's P38A HSE.
We will see about that, later.

I am still thinking about the new D4 with the twin turbo diesel.
I would get the base model ? I think, if it only had five seats. Only need two. If we were going to tour in it, I would thro the rear seats to the tip
and enjoy the extra space.
I want to see them in the flesh first and test one out. Either way it would still be a good shopping basket if left alone, I think.

[austastar]

Your selection of the LR130 and try top is very close but do not have access to the cabin from the camper which was a very good security issue for us when we was on the road for 2 years. Couple of times this advantage saved us from a nasty situation.

Ditto, we have access from the camper to the cabin, and the only time we needed to use it, we had a kid asleep on the front seat so couldn't get through.

We were stopped over night in a quarry, out of sight of the road, but moved to be under some trees, with out re checking the line of sight.
Sure enough, about 30 mins after lights out, we heard an engine, off throttle, gear change, brakes and change direction and heading our way.
Lights shining in the back of the van, noisy exhaust, drunken laughter, trouble on legs.
I was out of bed like a shot, "damn kid is on the seat, where are the keys?".
Van starts bouncing, yobbos on the front bull bar, I was near the back door looking for the keys, I could hear one of them just outside the back door, inches from my face.
In what I hoped was a steady voice, I asked for "the winchester, and 3 shells" quietly, but loud enough to be heard through the door.
They were very quickly back to the panel van and out of the quarry.
I'm glad that worked, because I had no gun.
Lesson learned, Keys always on the hook, double check line of sight from the road at night.
Access to the cab is nice, but we have only needed it once in what must be several hundred nights camping, but is so convenient when the air is full of mosquitoes, or it is pelting rain.

[DeanoH]

Depends on what you call touring.

If its driving around Australia towing a small van (<1500 Kg tare), with a bit of corrugated dirt thrown in I'll stick with SWMBO's D2. I'd want it chipped to make overtaking 4 trailer road trains less of a white knuckle experience.

If its serious remote touring I'd go for a 60 series with H/2H engine and 750R16's on split rims. Couldn't kill it with a stick of dynamite. If I wanted a camper I'd go for an OKA. Rock solid drive train and Perkins engine. No electronics in either just good solid motoring.

V8 Toyo may be a good tourer with the exception of weak reversed front diff and 100mm difference between front and rear track. 75 series Troopy with 2H would be OK.

As for the Unimog, you've got to be kidding, bloody great hulking monster. Be about as much fun to drive as an F truck in peak hour.

Deano

[Tombie]

I'd go the RR Sport...

I have the gear to sort it in the bush :cool:

[DeanoH]

Although......................................

Met a bloke in Oodnadatta with RRC with 200TDi motor/transmission. Reckoned he got 30 mpg cruising at 100 K's. Had done some work on the exhaust plumbing and turbo to make it breathe better and put in a larger intercooler. Bolted straight up to the existing exhaust. Dead easy conversion he reckoned.

Now this would be a great tourer. Best suspension LR has ever made with a no fuss economical diesel and the commanding view and comfort of the RRC.

Deano

[dullbird]

I'd go the RR Sport...

I have the gear to sort it in the bush :cool:

so does this mean when I get my D3 you are going to become my offical brake down man?:D

[Casper]

For my money......If I had plenty it wouold have to be the new G Wagon from the Benz stable.

Excelent 4wd ability, comfortable beyond belief and plenty of service back up in most places around the world as well as a reasonable GVM.

If it were something a bit cheaper and more than likely on my wages would be the new Hilux SR5 3.0l diesel in auto.

All the mod cons in a fairly bomb proof package and with only minor mods to the suspention (Set of rear springs and better shocks all round) is pretty comfy as well.

They have plenty of room and are surprising off road in standard trim so with some decent tyres and setting up I recon they could be pretty good.

Also there are Toyo dealers and parts EVERY where and every second Grey nomad has one or a Prado so they must be reliable.

I still love my Disco but it's geting a bit long in the tooth these days and when you have stock standard off the shelf 4b's able to do most of what my slightly modified D1 can do but do it a hell of a lot easier with TC, ABS, HDC and all the other acronims I think it's more an if you cant beat them scenario for me.

[BigJon]

new Hilux SR5 3.0l diesel in auto.

All the mod cons in a fairly bomb proof package and with only minor mods to the suspention (Set of rear springs and better shocks all round) is pretty comfy as well.

They have plenty of room and are surprising off road in standard trim so with some decent tyres and setting up I recon they could be pretty good.



You are joking aren't you?

They have less front crossmember clearance than my old Kingswood!

I am sure that with all the suspension replaced they would be OK.

[PAT303]

3.0lt Hilux,I had a laugh at that one,dealers everywhere so plenty of parts,yeh right,own one and see how available parts are.The dealers don't have parts,they can only tell you whats wrong and order what you need from Sydney or Melbourne and you wait a week at least to get them.The outback dealers can't reset faults to get them going either,only the bigger regional dealers have the equipement so it goes on a truck like everything else. Pat

[Disco_owner]

Anyone of these will do me for outback Touring

300tdi Disco / RRC conversion
300tdi Defender
V8 RRC Efi with LRT to carry extra Fuel
Td5 Defender

and I'll have Roof top Tent to go with any of them .
.
and a Great Bunch of people to go with to make the Trip more memorable:)

[Slunnie]

The original question it is a bit contradicting

Quote:
If you had a super payout or won the lottery or just had a few hundred laying around...

What would you buy to Tour with??

Remember it has to be able to be fixed if need be in the bush, so sadly a RR Sport and anything over Electric and over the top in modern crap, is no good...
End of Quote

The Toyota that you like does not meet the criteria, it cannot be fixed by a non Toyota dealer

It has to be capable off road and be reliable and good on fuel.
The Toyota drinks by the gallon, we are not 100% sure about if it is reliable

So if we are going to dream the Unimog is the best by far

You have tons of money so a bit of fuel does not matter
The vehicle have the best warranty and service available world wide so you only need a sat phone to call

Ok, it is bulky, the get a Mercedes-Benz G-Wagen EDITION30 Special Edition
as you only vehilcle or tow it behind the Unimog :D
The G Wagen alone is a very capable vehicle and if I have the money I buy it before the Toyo

Now if we ignore a bit the original questions and we speculate that we blow all the money in the vehicle, then a old vehilce with a simple rebuilt engine which any tractor/diesel mechanic in the bush can repair then we have to go back to the isuzu, Tdi300, perkins, old 4.2 T Toyotas ,etc.
Why a Defender? because the payload of this vehicle it is not match by the other common 4x4
Why I like the Tdi 300? because the economyis fantastic and the performance of the engine is good enough for the purpose for wich the vehicle was built.
If it is good for the UK army have to be good for a tourer vehicle as well ;)
The Puma, New Toyo, etc do not meet the criteria
Seeming as this was on the back of a quote of mine...

I really don't think that Toyota are the only ones that can work on a Toyota. I'm really not sure where you've heard this. :Rolling:Its also as basic electronically speaking as a 4WD built in modern times will come.

Every vehicle drinks fuel by the gallon. They also drink fuel by the litre, the millilitre and by the quart. I'm quite surprised at this comment as you immediately follow it up by saying the Mog is the ultimate vehicle and how cares how much fuel it uses. :confused:

I still cant believe that after so many years that nobody allegedly has improved on the Tdi. :angel:

[Chucaro]

I made the comment about the Mog if money was not the issue if you read I said that it can tow the G Wagen as well.

Now regarding reliability of the Toyota this are your comments in THIS (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/81354-toyota-v8-going-bang-4.html) thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by harlie View Post
the owners will still stand in front of you and tell you how c**p your landrover (or anything else) is. I had a guy at work tell me that "you need to buy a toyota, nothing is as reliable and nothing is anywhere near as comfortable". mmm
He's obviously either never sat in a commercial toyota, or never sat in anything other than a commercial toyota. Don't get me wrong, I really do like the Toyotas, but that comment is sooooo wrong its not funny.
__________________

It is strange that you are selecting the Toyota after your comment, but then again perhaps you have changes your mind after few weeks :)

[Chucaro]

According to a Toyota dealer principal I was talking to the excessive oil consumption problem has been fixed by a new seal in the turbo. Coolant leakage problems on the turbos can be an expensive and time consuming repair. Otherwise reliability wise they are OK.

Performance wise I was in a Troopie with the V8 diesel on several occasions while on the Tiwi Islands and they pull like a train. Great performance! This was the single turbo version that is in the Troopies. The 200 series has a twin turbo version.

But repair one out in the field? Just take one look under that bonnet and you will forget the idea real quick! It is a very big and complex motor and it fills the engine bay like no motor I have seen since the V12 Jag. I wouldn't want to repair that in the field either.

The dealer mentioned above said that if the top coolant outlet on the turbo started to leak the repair involved removing the turbo itself and that is an engine out job! That is a workshop job only, especially with this engine.

I can quite seriously say that working on my P38 in the field would be a much less daunting proposition than working on the Toyota V8 diesel!

Willem

Does not look like that it is a GOOD expedition vehicle :angel:

[clean32]

so, money no problem
you want reliability
comfort
4x4 performance
the ability to be able to fix it McGyver style
Load space


well as a tourer go diesel, smaller tanks and heres more actual places you can go, ( petrol vehicles band)
reliability well in theory thats any thing that is new or rebuilt.
comfort = coils over leaf
$X$ performance, ok there is a lot of options there.
Load space

ok so working up the list, load space ( weight) leaves us with Defender land cruser and Patrol.

defender comes out on top for 4x4 performance stock ( for arguments sake)
comfort, all about the same
reliability, well dump the electrics and that leaves us with older vehicles.
so apply the above to the older models, but only the coil sprung one = defender.

so a rebuilt defeater either 110 or 130, probably best to get the isuzu with and turbo.

[Slunnie]

I made the comment about the Mog if money was not the issue if you read I said that it can tow the G Wagen as well.

Now regarding reliability of the Toyota this are your comments in THIS (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/81354-toyota-v8-going-bang-4.html) thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by harlie View Post
the owners will still stand in front of you and tell you how c**p your landrover (or anything else) is. I had a guy at work tell me that "you need to buy a toyota, nothing is as reliable and nothing is anywhere near as comfortable". mmm
He's obviously either never sat in a commercial toyota, or never sat in anything other than a commercial toyota. Don't get me wrong, I really do like the Toyotas, but that comment is sooooo wrong its not funny.
__________________

It is strange that you are selecting the Toyota after your comment, but then again perhaps you have changes your mind after few weeks :)
Grave digging - its like plugging holes in a sinking ship. :p

The blue stuff is a quote from Harlie, the red stuff is what I have written. My first sentance is about the perspectives of the person Harlie is quoting and highlighting his bias and probably perspectives from what appear to be a fairly limited experience.

The second comment sentance says that I disagree that Toyota are the most reliable or the most comfortable 4WD on the market. To me, a reliable vehicle is a 4.2 Nissan GU Patrol. To me the most comfortable would be something like a RRS/D3 with comfy seats and ergonomics. The Toyota commercials are generally sprung stiff, though if anything this is a good thing for a tourer.

You don't have to be the best at all or any of these points to be the best tourer though.

Please, feel free to keep digging. :lol2:

[Chucaro]

Do not worry I would not digg just to show you that if you trying to be sarcastic about my comments make sure that you are consistent with your arguments :D

At the end of the day I do not care less if you like Toyotas of what ever vehicle you have selected :lol:

[Slunnie]

Do not worry I would not digg just to show you that if you trying to be sarcastic about my comments make sure that you are consistent with your arguments :D

At the end of the day I do not care less if you like Toyotas of what ever vehicle you have selected :lol:
Actually I thought that was pretty uncalled for on my part. Sorry. :(

I do still think that the 76 is the go as a touring vehicle, but at the same time my vehicle is a D2 and not looking like it will change for a while.

[Mulgo]

Is there a reason why you couldn't put one in, even if you have to have it engineered,, its probably not hard to do, I've seen it done on other vehicles, but I dont know if they had to be engineer passed,,:confused:

If you think that the window at the back of the Defender Cab is large enough to climb through you don't need an engineering certificate. For most people however there is not enough height and the crossbar as well as the bottom panel need to be cut - which would require an engineering certificate. If you properly reinforce the cut out section you have not problems in getting the certificate.

Cheers,
Daniel

[Disco_owner]

Just one point I'd like to make about outback travelling is any vehicle
planning on travelling should be in top mechainical order regardless of
wheather it's petrol or dieso.

Im yet to see an outback posts that Petrol Vehicles are BANNED.

Members of out own club have travelled extensively through outback of australia
and never had any problems finding Fuel stations or outposts that sells petrol.
Yeah sure Deserts are renownwed for burnt out petrol vehicles due to Spinifex igniting.
but there are things you can do to ensure this doesn't happen.

Long-range tanks are essential. If you don't have them you can always carry
more fuel in jerry cans, but places like canningstock you'll still need Fuel drop
off possibly even for diso.
And If you're planning on travelling thru outback you should be travelling in
a convoy anyway unless you've planned it carefully to travel on your own.

[clean32]

Im yet to see an outback posts that Petrol Vehicles are BANNED.

.

there are quite a few areas where you are either not allowed to enter in a petrol Vehicle. or you will not get a Permit if you are in a petrol Vehicle.
add to that in some communities\ areas, petrol can and will attract a but of the wrong sort of attention.

[DeanoH]

Just one point I'd like to make about outback travelling is any vehicle
planning on travelling should be in top mechainical order regardless of
wheather it's petrol or dieso.

Im yet to see an outback posts that Petrol Vehicles are BANNED.

Members of out own club have travelled extensively through outback of australia
and never had any problems finding Fuel stations or outposts that sells petrol.
Yeah sure Deserts are renownwed for burnt out petrol vehicles due to Spinifex igniting.
but there are things you can do to ensure this doesn't happen.

Long-range tanks are essential. If you don't have them you can always carry
more fuel in jerry cans, but places like canningstock you'll still need Fuel drop
off possibly even for diso.
And If you're planning on travelling thru outback you should be travelling in
a convoy anyway unless you've planned it carefully to travel on your own.

You make some very valid points here.

1/. A properly maintained and prepared vehicle is essential though unfortunately some don't know what this means or are blaze about the risks, sometime resulting in death.

2/. How soon we all forget that prior to the Landcruiser H engine diesel 4WD's were as rare as 'rocking horse tarpit'. Len Beadell never had a diesel and he did OK.
Last year I took a 4.5 litre petrol/gas troopy from Victoria through the centre and up the Tanami Track, across to Broome, along the GRR, up to Mitchell Falls and Kalumburu and back home down the bitumen. Apart from trashing a totally unsuitable battery and breaking a radiator bracket it performed brilliantly. 13000 Km in 8 weeks and although it used nearly double the volume of fuel (LPG & Petrol) as my mates LPG over diesel GU it was considerably cheaper to run.
All up cheap to buy, the Government paid for the gas conversion (damm decent of them I thought), cheap to maintain and cheap as chips to run. Perfect around Australia touring choice.

3/. Petrol isn't always available in the outback for various reasons. Some operators couldn't be bothered stocking it due to low sales volumes or other reasons, Hells Gate up north or Imintji on the Gibb River Road for example . Realistically if your'e on petrol its a good idea to carry enough fuel to get you to the fuel stop after the next one. Not a major inconvenience if you've done your homework.

4/. Dunno about LR tanks though. I've seen a number of vehicles stuck with leaking tanks in my travels. Always aftermarket jobs. Never come across a failed factory tank. Jerrys mightn't be as convenient but are a lot more reliable. One hole doesn't mean you lose the lot.

5/. Only in the rarest of circumstances is convoy driving a neccessity. In remote or rugged areas it may be prudent to travel with another vehicle(s) sometimes but a convoy; only if its your preference. Whatever rows your boat. Though in all fairness preparation, planning and execution are totally different when travelling solo. Best way to go in my view but definitely not for the inexperienced or unprepared.

Deano

[spudboy]

If I had buckets of dosh, I'd buy one of these, an Earth Cruiser:

http://www.allterrainmotorhomes.com/images/B&G-Russia-904_large.jpg
http://www.allterrainmotorhomes.com/images/pic1.jpg http://www.allterrainmotorhomes.com/images/home_large1.jpg

www.allterrainmotorhomes.com (http://www.allterrainmotorhomes.com)

Built up in Brisbane I think.

I sent off for a brochure, and it looks the goods. Unfortunately it was almost $200K, so just a tad out of budget for me :(

http://www.allterrainmotorhomes.com/images/floor_plan.gif

[disco2hse]

Very cool :cool:

I like that a lot.

Alan

[spudboy]

Good size, isn't it. Bigger than a 130, but smaller than a UniMog. Probably faster than both as well!

[disco2hse]

And options that include PTO, front and rear lockers, it all looks good. And not having gas to cook with is clever, 10 days of power with only solar chargers,... Good grunty engine too. The Canters have been around for ages, they are a well proven vehicle design.

I couldn't find anything on their site about security but it does look pretty robust. Some parts of the world, you would want strong door locks and maybe window bars/screens.

Alan

[Chucaro]

$ 28,000 all up and you have THIS (http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Caravans-Mobile-Homes-Trailers/Campervans-Motor-Homes/AdNumber=8781314?BackToResult=true) Canter ready to go ;)

[crash]

For the open road a Honda Goldwing would be my choice for touring.

[disco2hse]

$ 28,000 all up and you have THIS (http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Automotive/Caravans-Mobile-Homes-Trailers/Campervans-Motor-Homes/AdNumber=8781314?BackToResult=true) Canter ready to go ;)

Or as Steve on American Dad might say "Shecksee" :p

Alan

[marko66]

Hi All

Just a few points from myself and friends views, 6x6 landys are good but the oka's are better in the bush and thats running them side by side.

The 4 litre perkins oka isnt powerful enough and they need a lot of maintenance - greasing etc also they they fog out the diffs from lots of ofroad use - think new housings.

Personally i'd run from a mercedes, the toyotas are early ones are tough including on me and the later ones soft and still have crap seats.

I'd rather have a land rover to go off road than any of the japanese vehicles and take your pick of the coilers but having said that i went through the daintree in a series 3 hardtop and enjoyed it.

Regards Mark

[Cosmic Tourist]

Whatever you buy, THIS is what you put on it

AZALAI - homepage (http://www.azalai.co.uk/)

they'll do it in either a Deefer 130 with more space, or a toyota 79 which will be much easier to find parts for internationally at least (I'm assuming you mean REAL touring).

A mog would be amazing, and some amazing kit outs, but hard to negotiate around Paris, or tricky Himalayan passes. Pretty hard to go go past tho if you had the cash.

[disco2hse]

That IVECO Massif looks interesting.

Edited: Just phoned Iveco here. They don't import the Massif into NZ. Sucks. Weird since Iveco Massif are sponsors of the All Blacks - apparently, since Ford are sponsors too, they won't let Iveco sponsorship be shown locally.

[robzilla]

That IVECO Massif looks interesting.

Edited: Just phoned Iveco here. They don't import the Massif into NZ. Sucks. Weird since Iveco Massif are sponsors of the All Blacks - apparently, since Ford are sponsors too, they won't let Iveco sponsorship be shown locally.
first i've heard of those Iveco's, looked them up. so what's the deal, did they just blatantly copy the defender body?

[disco2hse]

They are made by Santana for Iveco. They have the same engine as the Iveco Daily van but most of the running gear and body sounds Santana.

Really sturdy sounding truck, but then I like the Santana's.

Edited to add: If it weren't for the fact that there is no support for them here and that parts would be a total pain to get, I would seriously look at one instead of the new Deffies. To me they are what the Deffie could have been if they hadn't gone towards a - how you say - Toorak Tractor.

[wesbt]

Certainly interesting reading through all this post.

I've been thinking in a similar manner for the last 12 months, hoping to be all set-up wihin the next few years. My read on this is any of the more rugged 4x4's that are well maintained and prepared would do a good job. Key point is know the weaknesses of your vehicle, and either engineer them out before you go, or carry spares. Family of four dictates minimum four seats, and significantly adds to the load need to carry/pull, both the essentials, and entertainment for those rainy days.

Recently met a retired couple driving a Nissan X-Trail towing a tinnie, where they place all their camping and fishing gear. In the back of the Nissan rear sears are removed, Waeco fridge and custom drawers are installed. They were on their second trip around Australia and clocked up over 160k on the clock. Serviced it every 10k, and had it checked over each time they went into more rugged areas. Not my choice, but it was perfect for them.

Think where most thought needs to be placed is what is meant by 'touring'. Can tour on bitumen, graded or ungraded roads, goat tracks or make your own as you go. Unless touring via the 'Tuff-truck' tracks, what is the benefit of a Uni-mog, or oher vehicle with portal axles? Doesn't strike me as something would want to do 500km's in in one day on a regular basis? Surely something as large as a Uni-mog would also stop you going into a lot of places could see in a more 'normal' sized vehicle?

My thinking is if want an all-in-ine vehicle Defender 130 meets my needs perfectly. (Just got to convince SWMBO!) Engine spec and level of technology preferably relatively new so can comfortably do those highway runs in-between the off-road treks, and for use as daily driver. Biggest seller for the 130 is the load carrying capacity.

Alternatively, if willing to compromise and use a camper trailer, then there are any number of vehicles could choose from. Most Land Rover's, Patrol, LandCruiser / Prado (taste dictates not the new one!), even a Pajero, and majority of the TD crew cab utes.

Really comes down to what you want to do with the vehicle whilst its fully loaded and in 'touring' setup.

[cols110]

Without doubt it would be one of these.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/157.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/158.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/159.jpg

A limited Edition G320.

If you have seen or travelled with a G Wagon you will know why. Out of the box they are a fantastic vehicle, I have travelled quite a few miles with guy who owns a G500 with 365 000 kms on the clock and it does'nt miss a beat. Now he has an AMG G55K with 500 horses on tap, his old G500 is his off roader and the G55 is his daily cruiser. They really are a fantastic vehicle, I just hope they release them in Australia at a realistic price.

[disco2hse]

Yeah baby [thumbsupbig]

Realistic? .... Probably.
Affordable? .... Well not for me anyway.

Alan