D2 Replacement Airbag Suspension

[DISCOBEAR]

Hi,
I know this subject has been brought up a million times in forums but just asking for anyones advise out there in Land Rover Land for the cost of replacement Rear Airbags for D2a Disco. Mines got the left rear going down overnight and I have called a couple of local specialists on the Sydney North Shore for quotes but would be interested in anyones experience that they have had with their Disco's.

[strangy]

When the dollar was high aginst USD, you could not go past Arnott Ind. for a pair landed at your door for around $370

Now you would have to check the exchange, but The AirBag Man might be almost be competitive.
Genuine (at last check, last year) was prohibitive.

Don,t change just one and don,t go 2nd hand unless you are desperately broke.

Cheers

Mark

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Do it FAST!!!
otherwise you'll be up for a compressor as well.

seriously.
fast.
do it now.

[justinc]

Air bag man. Do it now.

JC

[simonl8353]

Glenn,

If you are sure its the airbags get quotes from Arnott Ind. (USA) and Airbagman. Original LR parts will be arounf $840ea

If you're not sure, check with soapy water from a spray bottle around the pipe joins, airbag fold and top of airbag where the metal ring is.

Heres some of my experience with airbags in these two posts.

If you're up for it, they're really quite easy to fit yourself, your first time, allow about 40 mins per side.:).

Good Luck

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/57160-d2-sls-airbag-replacement-completed.html

and

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/71999-what-cost-basic-mods-upgrades-2.html#post916534

[JayBee75]

Guys just to tag onto Glen's thread would he be not better at looking at putting springs in the rear?

Reason I ask is my LR specialist response to me the other day was to put springs in the rear when I was talking about getting a lift, he said it's more reliable long term and the air bag really have no benefit.

Yet I see on the forums alot of guys inclusive of Glen and simon going the airbag replacement option?

[harlie]

Guys just to tag onto Glen's thread would he be not better at looking at putting springs in the rear?

Reason I ask is my LR specialist response to me the other day was to put springs in the rear when I was talking about getting a lift, he said it's more reliable long term and the air bag really have no benefit.

Yet I see on the forums alot of guys inclusive of Glen and simon going the airbag replacement option?

Yes Springs are probably going to be more reliable – I say probably because I’ve replaced the coils in every car I’ve ever owned because they sagged... And unfortunately there are cases of the system failing – like all technology that’s not maintained.

The air bag really have no benefit – why are there coil sprung vehicles getting around with the “helper” bags in the center of the coil for heavy towing or loading. Clearly this advice comes from someone without a clear understanding of how it works and how to fix it. The air spring is the only medium of spring that will ride at the same height and with the same comfort no matter what load they are carrying or towing. Why does virtually every late model heavy truck/bus have air – because it has no advantage – don’t think so especially when it’s worth tons of $ to have a truck breakdown...

I really don’t get the coil conversion mentality especially in the Range Rovers – if you want a coil car; go buy a Nissan or Toyota. I would be betting that your LR specialist does’t fully understand an air system because it is not that difficult system to keep going and there are heaps of people who can fix it with aftermarket replacement parts – My D2 (1999) is the only car I’ve ever owned (out of 8) to make it to 10 years without any suspension work required – yes there are people replacing bags now but these cars are now nearly 10 years old and the failed compressor is usually due to a leak not being fixed in time – once again this is often people not fully understanding the system and getting to the cause (leak) in time (even LR dealers – I’ve seen it up here). The spring conversion is also far more profitable to the garage, they actually have to think about an air system.

If you don't like the technology or you want the cheap way out than go back to old school coils - but don't bother with "The air bag really have no benefit".

And there is ways to raise an air suspension car - he might not be aware of that... I would think an LR specialist would beable to give you all the options.

Sorry I am cranky today and I really don't mean to pick on you:(

[camel_landy]

Nice rant... :D

I'd second what you say and I'd also add that keeping it original usually helps with any resale value.

M

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Those bags your complaining about have probably lasted ten years,,
go back and ask your coil guy how long did his last set of coils last,,

"no advantage" ?? WTF?? and you let this guy work on your car???

:Rolling:

[DISCOBEAR]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. As soon as I realised that I had a leak I did the soap spray with no visable leak, so I'm guessing it is in the fold of the bag itself.
Sherman has been up on stands since as I've read a few threads which pointed out how easy it is to overwork and blow your compressor which results in a HUGE $ bill. Took this opportunity to change all my oils while I get some quotes.

I have been told by a local non-genuine LR workshop that OEM bags are the only way to go as the Arnott's and Dunlop import bag do not fit without modifications????? sounds like a sales pitch to me but can someone please clarify?

OEM Bags - $560 + GST each.

Last note to "Harlie" - imformative rant and I couldn't agree more but have you every thought of a Valium sandwich before joining the forum??? ;)

[harlie]

Last note to "Harlie" - imformative rant and I couldn't agree more but have you every thought of a Valium sandwich before joining the forum??? ;)

:D:D:D

[JayBee75]

Yes Springs are probably going to be more reliable – I say probably because I’ve replaced the coils in every car I’ve ever owned because they sagged... And unfortunately there are cases of the system failing – like all technology that’s not maintained.

The air bag really have no benefit – why are there coil sprung vehicles getting around with the “helper” bags in the center of the coil for heavy towing or loading. Clearly this advice comes from someone without a clear understanding of how it works and how to fix it. The air spring is the only medium of spring that will ride at the same height and with the same comfort no matter what load they are carrying or towing. Why does virtually every late model heavy truck/bus have air – because it has no advantage – don’t think so especially when it’s worth tons of $ to have a truck breakdown...

I really don’t get the coil conversion mentality especially in the Range Rovers – if you want a coil car; go buy a Nissan or Toyota. I would be betting that your LR specialist does’t fully understand an air system because it is not that difficult system to keep going and there are heaps of people who can fix it with aftermarket replacement parts – My D2 (1999) is the only car I’ve ever owned (out of 8) to make it to 10 years without any suspension work required – yes there are people replacing bags now but these cars are now nearly 10 years old and the failed compressor is usually due to a leak not being fixed in time – once again this is often people not fully understanding the system and getting to the cause (leak) in time (even LR dealers – I’ve seen it up here). The spring conversion is also far more profitable to the garage, they actually have to think about an air system.

If you don't like the technology or you want the cheap way out than go back to old school coils - but don't bother with "The air bag really have no benefit".

And there is ways to raise an air suspension car - he might not be aware of that... I would think an LR specialist would beable to give you all the options.

Sorry I am cranky today and I really don't mean to pick on you:(



Ouch:eek:

Seriously appreciate the input Harlie I am in the process of doing a number of mods to my D2 and everywhere I turn I seem to get conflicting advise. The minute I make a decision on something I feel like the information I get tells me it's wrong.
Anyway I was chewing the ear of this well known Melb LR specilaist telling him what I was doing and I mentioned I was putting in a 2 inch lift with airbag blocks, and advised that I heard about an option of raising the rear of the car by airbags alone, that's when he made the comment of "just put coils in they are more reliable" "there's no real benefit with bags", hence my question on Glen's thread.

Being an 2001 there is no doubt I will face the same situation as Glen, and I was just going to remove the SLS system, however after the info on this thread will probably just replace the bags.

Appreciate the input guys, that's what this place is for!

[simonl8353]

....I have been told by a local non-genuine LR workshop that OEM bags are the only way to go as the Arnott's and Dunlop import bag do not fit without modifications????? sounds like a sales pitch to me but can someone please clarify?

OEM Bags - $560 + GST each.


The Arnott Bags (I have them) go straight in without any mod. Dunlop actually make the OEM bag for LR so the LR bag is just a re-badged Dunlop. I believe there is a bag out there that you only need to push fit the air hose into, which means you remove the screw fitting from the hose, not really a mod at all, just a minor difference in installation.

$560ea is very cheap from LR, I was quoted $840ea 1 yr ago.

I agree with harlie, but also agree he needs help, maybe was "fiddled" with by a coil spring as a child!!!! :o :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:wasntme:

[JayBee75]

Those bags your complaining about have probably lasted ten years,,
go back and ask your coil guy how long did his last set of coils last,,

"no advantage" ?? WTF?? and you let this guy work on your car???

:Rolling:

Hey Pedro,

You would'nt believe that this comment was made by one of the bigger well known LR specilaists in melb. They do my servicing , but in relation to the mods I am undertaking, I am making the decision based on all the info on AULRO as it's more reliable, better source of opinion and no hidden adgenda's!

Cheers

[strangy]

[QUOTE=simonl8353;957112]

Sales pitch indeed!!!!!

The Arnott bags are identical in all aspects of fitment.

It took me around an hour in total to do both.
I pushed the button on the dash to lift the rear, then put the jack stands underneath. Pressed the button again and it settled on the stands.
off with the wheels. floor jack under the diff. 15 mins each bag, including lift blocks and bit of a wipe down of the area.
Reverse the procedure and its back on its wheels.

[DISCOBEAR]

[quote=simonl8353;957112]

Sales pitch indeed!!!!!

The Arnott bags are identical in all aspects of fitment.

It took me around an hour in total to do both.
I pushed the button on the dash to lift the rear, then put the jack stands underneath. Pressed the button again and it settled on the stands.
off with the wheels. floor jack under the diff. 15 mins each bag, including lift blocks and bit of a wipe down of the area.
Reverse the procedure and its back on its wheels.

Strangy,
Did you import the Arnott's from Florida or buy them Local?

I know I shouldn't ask this question but here goes - If you bought local where?
If you don't mind me asking how much?

[Clarky]

Hi all,
I read this post and thought I would put my 2c worth in.
On a recent trip away the airbags on my D2 decided to give up the ghost, probably due to fatigue, judging by the soapy water trick, and let me tell you its not much fun riding on the bump stops on corrugated roads. We were able to pump up the airbags manually but they would only go down again every 20mins or so.
For me that pretty much made up my mind to replace them with coils, though the conversion was dearer then replacing the airbags.
There are pro's and con's of each, but I do go off road so I didnt need the worry of getting punctures in them.
At the moment I am finding the ride is comfortable enough and I have less electricals to worry about.
For me it was a better option to go coils.

[strangy]

[quote=strangy;957132]

Strangy,
Did you import the Arnott's from Florida or buy them Local?

I know I shouldn't ask this question but here goes - If you bought local where?
If you don't mind me asking how much?

From Florida September last year. I'll have to dig up the invoice for the exact amount, but, 368.00 from my recollection, at my door in Alice Springs.
Remember though the AUD was 97 something cents against the USD at that time.

Cheers

Mark

[DI5CO]

I have replaced mine as well from Arnott's at the time the Aussie dollar was high. Same price as strangy. For my situation, I wanted to keep the air, am in the process of lifting the car, (ordered my rear blocks). I like the idea of being able to load the car & it pumps up to the original height. I think its a personal decision weather to go coils or air.
Clarky, were your air bags old? I find it hard to believe they would fail if new,or newish unless manufacturers fault but i see your point!!
Dave.

[justinc]

I have replaced quite a few D2 air springs recently, 1999 models all so far. they are failing due to age and perishing, and I would expect this after 10 years, RRC and P38a all suffer the same fate.

As regards the fitment of coils, I would ONLY advocate(and I recently advised this) doing this if travelling remote areas with loads etc. The reason I say this is that IF, and a big 'IF' here, there is a problem with the compressor/airbag/sensors then the trip is effectively over. The effects of attempting to drive on the bumpstops when fully loaded and in rough terrain will at the very least cause a cracked/ broken diff housing or worse.

I think the SLS system in these is quite reliable, so what if you have to replace a bag or 2 in a 10 year time period? Whats the problem with lifting them? I have done a couple now and the results are fine.

I would suggest that the older RRC EAS system could be more unreliable...


JC

[Slunnie]

As regards the fitment of coils, I would ONLY advocate(and I recently advised this) doing this if travelling remote areas with loads etc. The reason I say this is that IF, and a big 'IF' here, there is a problem with the compressor/airbag/sensors then the trip is effectively over. The effects of attempting to drive on the bumpstops when fully loaded and in rough terrain will at the very least cause a cracked/ broken diff housing or worse.

JC
x2 for remote travel. We had all sorts of probs on a Hay River trip with failing bags (seperatation) which ended up being due to shock problems. The bags were sand filled in the end, but if you cant fix the shock or whatever problem then the airbags will keep giving probs also. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not an SLS hater at all.

[Clarky]

I have replaced mine as well from Arnott's at the time the Aussie dollar was high. Same price as strangy. For my situation, I wanted to keep the air, am in the process of lifting the car, (ordered my rear blocks). I like the idea of being able to load the car & it pumps up to the original height. I think its a personal decision weather to go coils or air.
Clarky, were your air bags old? I find it hard to believe they would fail if new,or newish unless manufacturers fault but i see your point!!
Dave.
My opinion is that it was perishing due to age.
For me though its one less thing to be concerned about. Less electricals, no pump etc.
The airbags are definately better when you load up the car, but coils are simple.Personal preferance.

[DISCOBEAR]

Well I have bitten the bullet and ordered 2x AirBags from Arnotts' industries in Florida. A$474.00 delivered which I thought is not a bad price. Now I can't wair for them to arrive..... I missed driving around in Sherman and it's been sitting in the garage on stands for 5 days now....

Thanks for eveyones 2c worth of input....;)

[that_kid]

i guess i too can add something to this,

i swapped the SLS system out of my car as i am intending on using it for a serious toy out in the 4x4 parks and IMO you cannot get the same articulation out of the SLS system. i dont have any really intention of towing with the vehicle and i did opt for an extra heavy duty coil for when it is loaded up with the fridge camping gear etc. i have found the change in the ride for the better as it is a bit stiffer and handles better both on and off the road.

i put 2' raised coils into mine. having had my 01 d2 in the family since new it did a the left bag in 06 and the second in 07. i agree that in 8 years thats wear and tear not unreliability. before i bought it the car was used soley for on road daily driving and towing a 3ton boat, and in that role the SLS was outstanding, but for what i want (flex) you can go past the coils.

ooooooops! :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

sorry,, but HD coils wont give you ultimate flex.

This months PIC in the AULRO calender is proof of that.:cool:


read this excellent thread,,
especially post 19---
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/75991-bugger-me-dead-2.html

[that_kid]

sorry,, but HD coils wont give you ultimate flex.


no but they are a trade off for the load carrying of the bags and their very limited flex. will work even better once i get the sway bar disconnects in

[Disco_ute84]

Has any one had experience with replacement bags from Brittpart?

Cheers,

Tim

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Trade off??

sorry,,

what was the question again??

you want to carry a load,,

but you want great flex,,,


I dont have a problem with you wanting coils,,,
I have a problem with you publicly disregarding bags with no knowledge,,, :wasntme:

[harlie]

Trade off??

sorry,,

what was the question again??

you want to carry a load,,

but you want great flex,,,


I dont have a problem with you wanting coils,,,
I have a problem with you publicly disregarding bags with no knowledge,,, :wasntme:


Pedro’s right – what we have here is a complete lack of knowledge on how the air system works.


The air spring will have far greater flex/travel that any coil let alone HD coil. When a coil expends to its max it is carrying no load at all – an air spring will continue to expand out and will be stopped by the shock, at this point the spring is carrying (pushing down on the tyre) a lot of weight. As a simple example – if you have a straight bag (not tapered) and at full stretch it is 1.5 times the length as standard ride height it’s internal air pressure will be std/1.5 because the internal volume has multiplied by 1.5 so (~70psi/1.5 = ~46psi). Say that the tyre was carrying 600kg at standard height it will now still have (600kg/1.5) 400kg of weight (so traction) on that tyre…. Remember a coil has 0kg and a HD coil does not expand anywhere near a far as even a standard coil – that’s the point of HD – when you put a heap of weight on it the car won’t drop as far…. Now this is a very simple example of what’s there and doesn’t include variables like the length/volume of the piston… But it shows that an air spring is far superior for travel and traction (keeping weight on a tyre).


On the D2 the problem is not the air spring (bag) – it’s the SLS logic. Essentially the computer tries it hardest to keep the rear two springs at the same length (this issue is fixed on D3 RRS RRV). So for travel there is a problem with the standard D2 SLS setup but it ain’t the air spring and can be very easily over come. Simply fit a shut off valve to the top of each spring or fit a 3-way diverter and cross link….


As for load carrying…. Come on - someone saying that having a spring that automatically increases its "Heavy Dutyness" when you load the vehicle is no good?


If people want coils for their own reason that's great - even though I ask why buy a car with air in the first place if it is so bad?. And I admit there are a few vehicles that have had their problems - like all other part of a car - but nearly all SLS failures have been due to lack of scheduled maintenance – the air system has been ignored (for now 10 years by some – including the dealers) and simple checks would show early signs well before they become an issue – who here has ignored their engine oil or coolant for 10 years and then complained with "engines are no good – bring back the horse"?


See some one got me started again…..

[that_kid]

Trade off??

sorry,,

what was the question again??

you want to carry a load,,

but you want great flex,,,


I dont have a problem with you wanting coils,,,
I have a problem with you publicly disregarding bags with no knowledge,,, :wasntme:


im sorry but i missed the part where i "publicly disregarded" the sls system, im a firm supporter of the airbags and further more so in the current range of LRs where they have hit the nail on the head with the way they are integrated into the terrain response system. the SLS is extemely effective at what it does in regards to towing and weight carrying, and i said this i believe, but i also added that for my application where my car is primarily for trail work and very rarely sees a trailer or more then a sleeping bag in the back the coils do their job. i chose the HD coils to cope with the steel front and rear bars that are yet to be added, and as for great flex the only things that are limiting it as it sits are, sway bars, brake lines, and my tires hitting the gaurds.

why did i buy an airsprung car? cos it was cheap. it served as a tow vehicle for my dad for 7 years and did it well, but now i use as it a park basher. show me a rig at tuff truck with airbag suspension and ill put the sls back in 2moro. and im more then happy to put my car on a flex ramp next to stevos smokey n see how the two compare...

[IceFyre]

and im more then happy to put my car on a flex ramp next to stevos smokey n see how the two compare...

Put it up against mine ;)

I have had 2 1999 D2's ... First with HD coils and Lift, current with SLS and equivalent lift.

Much prefer the SLS for ride, flex, load carrying and longevity. The bags were replaced last year after what ?, 9 years of service and I expect the same out of the new bags. Show me coils that will last that long without sagging etc. And I play just about as hard as the big boys.

To cover my butt, I have 2 spare bags and a self-inflation kit that allows me to pump up the bags if the compressor or other SLS component fails with my air-pump.

[chuck]

There are new replacement bags available on E Bay for $500.00 a pair.
Hobzees 4WD in Mornington Vic I think.
I don't know what brand or what the dealer is like.

Regards

Chuck

[AndyRevill]

To cover my butt, I have 2 spare bags and a self-inflation kit that allows me to pump up the bags if the compressor or other SLS component fails with my air-pump.

Hi IceFyre,

can you give me more details on this? I'm interested in having something for when we're out and about in remote country.

cheers, Andy

[IceFyre]

Hi IceFyre,

can you give me more details on this? I'm interested in having something for when we're out and about in remote country.

cheers, Andy


4x4 Intelligence (http://www.4x4intelligence.com.au/products.htm)

or

SLS Emergency kit (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d606.html)

I have the Les Richmond ones (Second link above)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

these are $15ea from pirtek,,;)

once you cut the original lines its easy to slip-on the valves,,

I bought some extra line to allow easier filling, usefull too when you rejoin to the new pump;):D

[AndyRevill]

these are $15ea from pirtek,,;)

once you cut the original lines its easy to slip-on the valves,,

I bought some extra line to allow easier filling, usefull too when you rejoin to the new pump;):D

Thanks Pedro,

Do these have some sort of fancy name ;) I'm sure if I ask for some of those thingies that let you manually inflate airbags on a Land Rover they'll know what I'm talking about :D
Can you get the line from them as well or is that a LR job?

cheers, Andy

[Pedro_The_Swift]

4mm line,, from you guessed it,,


pirtek.:p

[DISCOBEAR]

Hi,
I ordered a set of Arnott's Airbags which took 7 working days to arrive at my Sydney address.
Sat down Friday night beer in one hand, spanner in another and it took me about 4 beers to complete the job which also included a closer inspection of my Disc's and pad while the wheels were off. Quite a simple job really except for getting a spanner onto the end of the air line connector on the airbag. Jeeez that was a tedious step.
It has made a big difference to the body's rocknroll and am very pleased with the result.
now for the next project - 4.6 HC donk....woohoo

[Baffle]

why did i buy an airsprung car? cos it was cheap. it served as a tow vehicle for my dad for 7 years and did it well, but now i use as it a park basher. show me a rig at tuff truck with airbag suspension and ill put the sls back in 2moro. and im more then happy to put my car on a flex ramp next to stevos smokey n see how the two compare...[/QUOTE]



Hi the Kid,
Done a lot of homework in this area, I'm just sharing what Ive found,
The air bag compresses and extends in length more than the spring, to get the full length out of your bag add longer shocks to the same length of the limit of the bag or run limiting straps if shock is longer,, better articulation for a sprung car is to allow the spring to dislocate and once again allow longer length shock there is no downward force with the spring.Only at this point may you get more droop here(don't know about traction). I dont really see the point in dangling a wheel, bit like dipping your toe in a puddle. This rule runs with standard or modded suspension. of course there is more work to do in this area than what has just been mentioned.
There are plenty of pro off rd 4wd running bags.(big ones)
Yours
Mark

ps, gota mod to get the best:D

[Disrover]

Hi DISCOBEAR,

Can you (or someone else who has done this) go into a bit more detail about how you replaced a set of rear air springs? I'd like to find out more about jacking up the chassis and the procedure for the changeover of the air springs, etc.

I purchased a set of D2 rear suspension air spring from Arnott Inc. and I am keen to fit them so people stop calling our Discovery 'Ilean.'

Thanks, Justin (2002 DII V8)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you need The Good Oil.
:cool:

[simonl8353]

As Pedro says, try "The Good Oil" which is in the Technical Section on this site and provides plenty of first hand description on how to do stuff.;)

First up, this may help
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/57160-d2-sls-airbag-replacement-completed.html#post751880

[Disrover]

All done! Thanks to Pedro_The _Swift and Simonl8353. I found the instructions in The Good Oil and it was pretty straight forward.

Justin.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

great work Justin.:cool:

[DISCOBEAR]

Hi Disrover,
I followed these instructions and had no problems at all.

www.discovery2.co.uk / Rear Suspension Air Bags (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Rear%20Air%20Springs.html)

PS - Just becareful when screwing the airline connector into the new airbags. It would be very easy to cross thread.

Hope this helps.

[DISCOBEAR]

stupid me.... should have read the full post before submitting my remarks

easypeasy isn't it Disrover......

[scarry]

Had 2 D2's with SLS & had no problems at all

Now have a D2,had it for 5 yrs since new,and had to replace the coils as they had sagged,the fronts were very bad.

I recon the SLS gives a better ride & it is nice to have the car level all the time.The rear lift is also helpful at times.

I can see the point of less to go wrong with coils,particularly for remote travel,which is also the reason i didnt want ACE on the last two D2's i have owned.

Just my 2 cents worth......;)