Looking at buying a 2000 model Range Rover.

[PeterH]

Hi all, just doing a bit of homework here, your expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.
I have owned an 89 classic Range Rover for several years now, it has been a great vehicle, but I'm thinking of updating to around a 2000 model Range Rover.
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) there was an update around the 2000 model with BMW electrics which seem to be an improvement on the pre 2000 models, can anyone expand on that for me on what the update was over the previous models?

I'm a very hands on Range Rover owner and I do pretty much all the servicing myself on my '89, have never had a breakdown to speak of and it has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.
How much of the servicing and other jobs can be done yourself on the P38?
I have seen some guys have invested in the Rovacom lite gear to reset air suspension and diagnose fault codes etc, is that a good way to go?

Also is there any common problems I should be looking out for?

Thanks, regards, Pete.

[spudboy]

Hmmm - you may not get the same reliability of of a P38 that you've got from your Classic!!

If you do a search here on "P38A Problem" you will get quite a few pages of thought provoking reading :D

Great car when they are working, but can give a lot of headaches by all accounts. I skipped and went from a classic to an early L322 which has been particularly reliable to date.

Good luck!

[PeterH]

Well I guess that is the other option, just wait until the L322 comes down in price a bit more! They drop so quickly in price, you certainly would not buy a Range Rover as an investment! Nice looking vehicle though, I would like to have one someday.
I remember researching to buy my classic Rangie, which are not without thier problems, but fortunately most of those seem to be small annoying problems rather than major faults.
My theory is if you keep them really well maintained, you have less chance of a breakdown...of course no car can guarantee NEVER breaking down!

[willem]

G'day Peter,

I have read so much about the 'failings' of the P38, usually from people who don't own one. I am currently on my sixth Rangie, and my first P38. I reckon that if you want a P38, and you are prepared to look after it and learn about it, you will drive like a king for very little money.

I have had my 99 P38 4.0 for about 4 months and 10 000 kms and have had no problems. Its a magnificent car to drive and very capable in the bush. Its also much easier to work on than the RRC.

The so called 'P38 problem' that people refer to is often a referral back to early P38s which were the first of the fully electronic Range Rovers and they had their teething problems. There was also an issue with slipped liners in some motors. But by the later models most of these issues had been dealt with.

You are quite right in referring to an updated model, the 99 models and later. There is a different induction system giving increased power and better economy, and a Bosch rather than a GEMS injection system. The electronics are better sorted giving fewer problems.

That is not to say you will have no problems. The P38 is still a big and complex motor car and will therefore have its share of issues. But no more so than any other car of its size and complexity and age.

Move from an RRC to as P38? I did and I reckon its - by a long shot - the best car I've ever had. Go back to a classic? Short answer - no. The RRC was a great car in its day, but its day has gone. I enjoyed them, but it was time to move on.

One further observation. There is not yet a strong supply of used spares for the L322, and there is for the P38. A quick check on eBay and you will see what I mean. So it is more economical to maintain a P38 than an L322 at present. Mind you, an L322 is a brilliant car - it just costs more!

A good 99 and later low mileage P38 at the right price is a brilliant car, and for the money, an absolute bargain. If you like it, go for it.

Willem

[Grumbles]

Shhhh Willem. Not only are you convincing PeterH but you are also convincing me and I'm already convinced.

PeterH. As someone said in another thread on P38s. Never, ever test drive a P38 if you don't want to buy one. That was very good advice.

[PeterH]

LOL! Good advice...I have resisted the temptation so far, I know it would turn into a very expensive test drive!
I guess once you have the Range Rover bug it's end of story.
I am very happy with my classic, it has done an amazing job, but it is also a 20 year old vehicle now, so the time is nigh for something a bit more up to date.
I love getting in there and fixing things myself, so that is probably my main concern, as with the classic I can do almost everything, not sure if that is the case with the P38.

[Grumbles]

Oh dear! I can see what is going on here. It's not a declination to buy a P38 but a procrastination as to when..........sigh. You're gone PeterH. What colour are you getting?

[willem]

LOL!
I love getting in there and fixing things myself, so that is probably my main concern, as with the classic I can do almost everything, not sure if that is the case with the P38.

All the mechanical things are just as easy, if not easier with the P38. The electronic side is a new area you will have to learn. Another interesting challenge! :D:D

Willem

[2_door]

Hi all, just doing a bit of homework here, your expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.
I have owned an 89 classic Range Rover for several years now, it has been a great vehicle, but I'm thinking of updating to around a 2000 model Range Rover.
It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) there was an update around the 2000 model with BMW electrics which seem to be an improvement on the pre 2000 models, can anyone expand on that for me on what the update was over the previous models?

I'm a very hands on Range Rover owner and I do pretty much all the servicing myself on my '89, have never had a breakdown to speak of and it has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.
How much of the servicing and other jobs can be done yourself on the P38?
I have seen some guys have invested in the Rovacom lite gear to reset air suspension and diagnose fault codes etc, is that a good way to go?

Also is there any common problems I should be looking out for?

Thanks, regards, Pete.

I might wade in here guys if I can. A P38 has long been on my shopping list but for one reason or another, hasnt happened...not yet anyway (much to JC's delight)

SWMBO's vehicle is due for replacement and I showed her a pic of one today and she liked it.....bloody hell :eek: I might be in with a chance here ;)

anyway, my first question is.... 4.0 or 4.6, which was the better for reliability. There doesnt seem to be a huge price difference btn the two even given the other inclusions such as leather etc

and secondly, if the air suspension starts playing up, I see that a coil replacement kit is available at a reasonable price. Putting ride comfort aside, is this a viable option cost wise to avoid te continual maintenance that you so often read about.

Thanks PeterH for your original thread, it is good to see some positive things being written about the P38.

thanks in advance :p

[p38arover]

A GEMS P38A engine is far easier to work on than the Thor engine (as used from '99 onwards and in the D2).

Try changing the spark plug leads on a Thor.

[2_door]

A GEMS P38A engine is far easier to work on than the Thor engine (as used from '99 onwards and in the D2).

Try changing the spark plug leads on a Thor.

thanks Ron for that :thumbsup:

I wouldnt be basing my entire decision on how easy the spark plug leads are to change, have you any advice about the rest of the engine. The slipped liner issues for example, was that only in the pre 99 models or thru the whole model range. I have also heard that they are prone to over heating resulting in a total engine rebuild, any advice on major issues relating to reliability or leading to costly repairs.

thanks ;)

[willem]

and secondly, if the air suspension starts playing up, I see that a coil replacement kit is available at a reasonable price. Putting ride comfort aside, is this a viable option cost wise to avoid te continual maintenance that you so often read about.

Thanks PeterH for your original thread, it is good to see some positive things being written about the P38.

thanks in advance :p

The air suspension is one of the beauties of this car. Taking it out spoils it. And once you have it sorted it, its a pretty reliable system, and really quite simple. Installing one of the manual inflation systems that allow you to pump up each air spring individually gives you a 'fail-safe' backup. On my car, its just great, and I wouldn't consider changing to coils.

But I understand the nature of the concern. Coils are a passive system, and require little attention. Air suspension is an active system and requires more attention. But the extra attention required, which is not that much more, is worth if for the benefits, in spades.

Willem

Willem

[81stubee]

From what I understand, the slipped liner thing happens right across the range. I think the very very last P38's might have used the new block casting method, so it would be at least 2001/2002 and even these haven't been perfect. There are a couple of V8 Disco II's on here that have suffered a similar fate.

I was originally looking at only post 2000 models, but in the end couldn't justify the cost. It may be different now though. I think if you take the extra fruit out of the equation (ie, leather door trim, side airbags etc). The difference between a Bosch and GEMS is only because the Bosch came in High Comp @ 9.23:1 rather than GEMS Low Comp @ 8.23:1.

I would steer away from anything less than 97 as this is when most bugs were ironed out. Also post 97 has oxygen sensors fitted so it can run closed loop and self adapt better. I assume it was 97 as the earlier ones didn't, but mine does.

My two cents

Stu

[81stubee]

Oh and I forgot to add.

The EAS is a fantastic system when well maintained. Check for Air Leaks and get to problems before they arise, and it will be fine. 6-7 years ago, it would have been easy to justify a coil conversion because of the cost of parts, but now there are many sites to help, air bags are cheap compared to those for an l322 which will come down eventually. You can also download free software and make a cable for $20 so you can fix any EAS problems, and even alter the height settings. Check out Range Rovers (http://www.rangerovers.net)

I have also just brought a faultmate diagnostic unit for just over $1000 that enables me to read and access every system on the car. Try finding that for a landcruiser or falcon.

Stu

[p38arover]

If you buy, I really do recommend you get the radiator serviced or replaced as a first priority. You cannot afford to overheat these engines.

A question for Thor owners with HC engines, do they need PULP? The GEMS with the LC pistons does not.

Re electrical problem, my car is a very early build '95 model and has been almost entirely trouble free in the electrical dept. in the 7+ years I've owned it. One failed oil pressure switch, a failed water temp sensor (for the HEVAC, not the instrument panel), and a worn out blend flap servo. Oh, and some bulbs burnt out.

Despite what the motor noters may write, the build quality is far better than the RRC. The car also has better fuel economy than an RRC. It does feel heavier to drive.

The EAS may need work but it is a relatively simple system. The air suspension bellows wear out after 7 or so years and start to leak. They are simple to replace. The air line O-rings go hard and brittle (some of mine literally broke in half when I removed them) and I'd recommend replacing them all - it's a cheap kit to buy.)

The brake accumulator will lose charge over time and will need replacement after 7-10 years. It's an easy job and the brakes don't even need to be bled. Replacing brake pads is harder than on an RRC but replacing the disc rotors is much easier.

Wheel bearings are non-greasable but one can now buy the bearings P/N FTC1507 to service the hubs thus avoiding purchase of new hubs. However, replacing them does require a press.

Check the front hub swivels. The boots fail, especially on the lower swivel, and this is a workshop job. Getting the swivels in and out requires a press.

Check the tie rod. One cannot replace both tie rod ends, just one end (the other is crimped in so the whole tie rod needs replacement). Again the boots fail - they appear to be made of the same stuff as the hub swivel boots.

It's a pity they didn't make the HSE without the sunroof. It can fail and the frame around the glass does rust. Speaking of rust, the tailgate cables rust where they are crimped into the end pieces. You don't notice because of the rubber boots. One day you'll sit on the tailgate and the cable will break.

Buy a RAVE CD and read all the TSBs on the car.

[andrew e]

Great review Ron. The other one to check is the click in the brake pedal (there is another thread on this).

I have ebay wrecked 4 p38s in the last 6 months or so (i have no.5 ready and waiting) and they must be the easiest car i have ever worked on mechanically. I watched my rover mechanic friend unbolt and remove a motor in under 2 hours

I also had the pleasure of driving one around for a week or so, and its like floating on a magic carpet.

I am told liners slip across the range aswell, incliuding the bosch ones as 1 motor i sold went to replace an 01 slipped liner.

Check the rear of the sunroof glass, if there is a bump in the middle, the frame is starting to rust.

Air compressors wear out, but there are full rebuild kits available on ebay for 150+post.

Dash surrounds crack on the 2 lower lugs (i have not had a good one yet). The pillars have flock on them which comes off in your fingers and looks like cr-ap, but if you have them covered in vynal, or roof liner material, it looks very nice (be careful removing them, as the clips brake easily).

Auto changing mirrors almost always leak acid (i had one good one which leaked a month after i sold it), but a late Disco 1 or D2 mirror is a straight swap.

I also had 1 car with a stripped gear in the seat base. but this is not too common.

The radios seem to fail, but if you post it to england or america, they can fix it for you for about the same as an inferior aftermarket system (the factory one is better than anything out there).

The window regs fail, but the problem is normally the same as that in discoverys, and there is some home made fix's on this forum. New regs minus motors are under 100 plus freight from uk, so thats not too bad.

Lock it with the key, as the imobilisers can cause you troubles.

Oh and the fusebox, under relay#7 it often melts the circuit board (the plastic under the relay will crack) this causes all sorts of problems.

I wish i could convince the wife to let me get her one that i didnt have to pull apart.

Andy

[p38arover]

Yes, I'd forgotten about the fusebox and RL7. Dunno why - I wrote some of this: Fuse Box Repairs (http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/electrical/fusebox.html)

A faulty fusebox can really screw your mind!

[PaulP38a]

I went from a '95 4.6 GEMS motor HSE P38A to a '99 4.0 Thor motor P38A and really couldn't notice any loss of power. In fact, it feels like the 4.0 has a bit more grunt from the traffic lights, and better fuel economy (duh!).

If I ever get another P38A it will have to be a 2001/2002 HSE. Once you've had the HSE comforts, you never really get used to the S/SE model. Unless of course Andrew_e wants to sell me some nice black leather memory seats, headlamp washers, in-dash GPS etc. You can keep the Harmon-Kardon stereo - I prefer my setup and I've now got extra space in the boot where the subwoofer and CD stacker should be.

Don't care about the other exterior bling on the HSE - it will probably just get knocked off in the bush anyway.

Ron - my Thor HC engine runs just fine on "normal" ULP. I sometimes put PULP in just for fun, but no significant power or economy gains that I've noticed. Anyone tried ethanol blends yet?

PeterH - go the P38A, you're gonna love it. Keep the EAS, invest in a emergency EAS bypass kit (andrew_e sells them cheap) and keep an air compressor in the boot just in case - if you do any off-roading you will already have an air compressor anyway. Get the Rave CD (if you haven't already) and keep a few "good blokes" numbers in your mobile phone's address book (has saved me a couple of times - and many thanks to those "good blokes" - you know who you are) :D

If you can afford it, get a FaultMate (replacement for Rovacom) from HRA or BlackBox to view and reset ECU/BeCM faults. I'm still saving for mine...

Cheers, Paul.

[PeterH]

Thanks for all the great info here guys, very much appreciated and food for thought!
An emergency EAS bypass kit sounds like a must have, as is a Faultmate or Blackbox, will look further into those for sure, I like to know what's going on, being able to diagnose problems yourself is invaluable.

I have heard about the slipped liner issue which seems to happen with a few P38's, is there something that causes this to happen such as overheating, or is it just a random thing that can happen at any time?

[Hoges]

All of the above is true!

couple of other observations:
the change over from GEMS to BOSCH is represented by the following

"RANGE ROVER P38A V8 1999 TO 2002 FROM VIN XA410482" : the VIN is a critical marker.

It seems Bosch series P38As imported to Australia were low compression 8.35:1 (see stamping on front LHS block under the exhaust manifold). Makes for understressed /long life.

I have a MY2000 but actually built 07/1999 with a VIN XA42XXXX plate.
fuse box (relay #7), EAS Drive pack, valve block o-rings etc etc all needed attention. But each marque has its quirks!

An excellent source of parts is Jaguar | Land Rover spare parts at British Parts UK (http://www.britishparts.co.uk/) especially for electronic bits because the savings on just one major item pays for the postage/courier. (no VAT nor GST).

Heavy stuff...shocks etc...get a quote first...but sometimes even these can be cheaper to import than sourced locally.

Good luck /good hunting!

[Hoges]

PaulP38a wrote " Anyone tried ethanol blends yet?"

There's a TSB somewhere which recommends against ethanol because of problems it causes with components of the fuel gauge sender unit....

Also, ethanol is a bit of a rip off simply for the fact that its calorific (energy) value per gm. is siginificantly less than the equivalent mass of hydrocarbon mix served up as ULP...so one uses more to get the same energy output... AND it's a resource hog for water in production...

Ethanol is for drinking...remember, the liver is evil...it must be punished :eek:

[andrew e]

, in-dash GPS etc.

factory in dash gps is very dated and hard to use compared to current models on the market -tomtom/navman etc.

Andy

[Grumbles]

Upon my questioning Landrover re ethanol in fuel I received written confirmation from them that my RRC could run on ethanol blend up to 10% with out damage but that Landrover did not recommend any ethanol blend ratio over 10%.