advice needed......lurch has a headache.....

[DEFENDERZOOK]

im just after some tips or tricks i should look out for.......


lurch has broken an exhaust manifold stud.....and is leaking at the exhaust manifold.....


im sure others have had the same problem with their td5s.......


before i strip him down and order parts.......
from other peoples experiences.....is there anything out of the ordinary i need to know......?



do i need to source genuine gaskets....or just get whatever i can find easiest from local parts suppliers.........?


ie.....does it matter like it does with the v8 rotor buttons for example.....






cheers.....and thanks in advance (from lurch).......

[discowhite]

apparently you replace the studs with 300tdi ones and you will probably need to find somewhere that will machine your manifold flat also.

give me a bell if you get stuck, i have all the bits and tricks for removing studs.

cheers phil

[Redback]

What he said AND grind the webbing out between the ports too, before you have it faced.

Baz.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

are you speaking from experience.....?
have you had the same happen to yours.......?






do i need to use genuine rover gaskets.......or it doesnt matter.......?



rovacraft is not too far from my work.......

[Redback]

are you speaking from experience.....? YES
have you had the same happen to yours.......? YES






do i need to use genuine rover gaskets.......or it doesnt matter.......? GENUINE



rovacraft is not too far from my work....... OR T.R.Spares

Baz.:D

[George130]

Also elongate the end stud holes in the manifold. This is supposed to help when it expands and shriks.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Also elongate the end stud holes in the manifold. This is supposed to help when it expands and shriks.


i read something about that........drill them out to 10mm to allow some movement......
drill out all the holes except the middle 2 to allow it to locate in the correct position......




and im even gonna paint the manifold whilst its out.......make it look really sexy.......which also means faster.......
i just have to decide which is the fastest colour.........

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Baz.:D





i will ring around for the parts.......and see who can deliver.......

tr spares open too late and close too early for me.......unless i can get mad to pick up the parts for me......
she drives past there everyday to take the kids to school........


but rovercraft........i can even get there to pick up parts on my lunch break......as i am in pagewood......just up the road from them........


i was just wondering whether to bother with parts places such as repco as they deliver to us every day.......


i will stick to genuine.........

[discowhite]

karcraft will do same day delivery if ordered b4 10am.
$8 delivery for small items.

cheers phil

[DEFENDERZOOK]

now ive got too many choices........its getting harder.......



ive still got to go and get him......he is staying at my mums place at the moment......

might even go and pick him up today if i dont get lazy......

[Blknight.aus]

you'll want thefollowing gaskets

head-manifold
turbo oil return gaskets

elongate the outer most mainifold heads

remove the webbing (theres 3 schools of thought on this, slit, cresent and total)

you can also helicoil or oversize the studs if you want to.

and get the face of the manifold decked but also run a straight edge and feeler gauge along the mounting face of the head.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

ive been told to use 300tdi studs.......


are these thicker........? ie......will i need to drill and tap the head to take them......

and was also told to drill out all the manifold holes to 10mm except for the centre port.....to locate the manifold.......



oh....and i just picked him up from mums place.......so should hopefully start to pull him apart tomorrow after work........

[scott oz]

Defenderzook,

Given your thread I may just tag along if that's OK.

I'd be interested in where you are going to get your manifold skimmed and the cost.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i was gonna try where we send our flywheels to get machined......


wont know till i get it off.......




otherwise.....i will just do it the greek way.........a sheet of wet and dry sand paper on a sheet of glass.......

and a sheetload of elbow grease........

[scott oz]

I've got a mill but I'm still learning how to use it.

I think I saw a post from "Discowhite"?? where he millled his, He indicated there was quite a bit of setup and that's knowing what you're doing. I think he took off 1.5mm.

I thought that you would have to skimm each of the ports to the same height basicly end to end. I wouldn't have thought that you could do this with wet and dry??.

[muddymech]

i can pop into tr spares if you have no luck, off work monday
ian

[Tombie]

i read something about that........drill them out to 10mm to allow some movement......
drill out all the holes except the middle 2 to allow it to locate in the correct position......




and im even gonna paint the manifold whilst its out.......make it look really sexy.......which also means faster.......
i just have to decide which is the fastest colour.........

DONT PAINT.... HPC Coat it..... Paint is useless... Ceramic coating helps thermal dynamics, flow etc.. and prevents heat soak...

Around $80 for HPC to do the job...

[scott oz]

Tombie2

I phoned HPC and they told me it would cost about $500. This was about 8 weeks ago. From memory give the heat say 800C that I would need the higher grade application. Also to get the benifit I would need to do the dump pipe and turbo. Hence I'm thinking of just paint

Be interested in the $80 applicaton. Can you shed some light on it.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i can pop into tr spares if you have no luck, off work monday
ian




theres no rush.......ive got the mazda to drive around with........

plus i still havent taken the manifold off yet.......and ive got a couple of rdo s due........


but thanks for the offer.......

[Redback]

i was gonna try where we send our flywheels to get machined......


wont know till i get it off.......




otherwise.....i will just do it the greek way.........a sheet of wet and dry sand paper on a sheet of glass.......

and a sheetload of elbow grease........



Tony, Peak Re-bore are good, they did mine, very reasonable price wise too.

Baz.

[scott oz]

Redback,

I've done a white pages for ReBore and can't find them any chance you have a number or address.

Thanks.

[scott oz]

Just for interest unless someone knows where in OZ TD5 gaskets could be made. I did track someone years ago who was prepared to do it but then I sold the 200TDI.

Have a read of this

http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_110474/article.html (http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_110474/article.html)

[Redback]

Redback,

I've done a white pages for ReBore and can't find them any chance you have a number or address.

Thanks.

Peak Rebores

(02) 9579 4325
Rear 10 Barry Ave
Mortdale NSW 2223




Baz:D

[scott oz]

I’ve been reviewing the work on the TD5 manifolds and would appreciate any comments.

If you relieve the manifold by either fully removing the webbing or simply putting a “cut” through each web. My belief was this will allow the manifold to “flex” enough during expansion to prevent further stud failure?

If this is correct then is it still necessary to use larger studs?

If you use larger studs (300TDI) and you’ve relieved the webbing then is it still necessary to elongate the stud holes in the manifold? Surely relieving the webbing and the increase in stud size would be sufficient?

Elongating the stud holes in the manifold would be bugger all extra work but my question is would the additional movement allowed by the elongation lead to gasket/seal failure in the long term?

If elongating the hole do you just elongate one side and how much.

Sorry for all the questions but it may be of interest to others as well as me.

[Blknight.aus]

for my money....

I would only go the oversize bolts if I had the head coming off, this is mainly because of the lack of room to accurately swing a tap handle inside the engine bay. (this is worse in a disco than a deefer)


the stud elongation that I prefer is laterally along the head only and only by about 1mm either side of center for a nominal fit. Even with the moding of the webbing I still think this is worth doing

elongate all but the bolts closest to center.

If you can find them use a cone washer under the nuts that fit to a stud that protrudes through an elongated hole.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Just for interest unless someone knows where in OZ TD5 gaskets could be made. I did track someone years ago who was prepared to do it but then I sold the 200TDI.

Have a read of this

http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_110474/article.html (http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_110474/article.html)





are you refering to the spacers for the inlet manifold......?

if you get the material........you can make some using a jig saw and a die grinder or dremmel tool.......

just use an inlet manifold gasket as a template.......

[scott oz]

Redback,

Thanks I phoned the bloke and the price seems reasonable. Said he's being getting the TD5 manifolds from all over OZ. So I said because he must be doing a good job.

BLKnight thanks never heard if "cone" washers any suggestions of a good starting place to look?

[DEFENDERZOOK]

when you say cone washers.......are you referring to ones like used on cruiser hubs.......?


or like the collets found in the valve retainers but in one piece instead of two.....?

[Blknight.aus]

thats them, although not as agressive as collets or cruiser hub ones...

a fastner specialist like coventrys should be able to get them.

[scott oz]

Thanks Blknight,

I’ve found Coventry’s so I’ll give them a call. Is anyone able to help with a stud size for a standard TD5 manifold stud and the 300TDI Stud. I haven’t decided if I’ll go the larger studs so when I make some enquiries I’ll do it for both options.

[Redback]

Redback,

Thanks I phoned the bloke and the price seems reasonable. Said he's being getting the TD5 manifolds from all over OZ. So I said because he must be doing a good job.

BLKnight thanks never heard if "cone" washers any suggestions of a good starting place to look?

Call me Baz:D

[scott oz]

Phoned Coventry Fasteners and they said they have “cup” washers however didn’t think they would be any use on a manifold? Said if I can give a better description they would see what they can do. Most helpful. So can anyone enlighten me! (Nicely)

[Redback]

Thanks Blknight,

I’ve found Coventry’s so I’ll give them a call. Is anyone able to help with a stud size for a standard TD5 manifold stud and the 300TDI Stud. I haven’t decided if I’ll go the larger studs so when I make some enquiries I’ll do it for both options.

I have the standard studs in the garage somewhere, they are 8mm and the 300Tdi are 10mm, if you want I'll check to see how many 8mm standards I have and if you decide on them you can have them.

Baz.

[scott oz]

Baz,

Most generous offer and thanks.

I’m doing this job as preventative maintenance and don’t believe I have any stud failures. So I’m hoping to get away with elongating the manifold holes. If I do find they’ve failed then I then I’ll go to the 300’s

Thanks again for the offer.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

ive got a broken stud on mine........the top one on No.1 cyl.......
it broke flush with the head.......i now have to drill it out.........





heres a question for everyone.....

will removing the webbing from the exhaust manifold weaken the manifold and cause it to crack......???
as cast iron is not really reknown for its flexibilty.......



or is the webbing whats expanding and pushing on the studs......?



personally.....looking at the manifold.......it doesnt seem too strong.....
and with the webbing removed.......it looks as though its gonna just crack through......

does anyone make extractors for the Td5....???

[discowhite]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/50112-broken-manifold-studs-again.html

cheers phil

[Pedro_The_Swift]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/50112-broken-manifold-studs-again.html

cheers phil


nicely done Phill:cool:

[discowhite]

i dont like repeating myself;)

oh and its one L:p

cheers phiL

[Redback]

ive got a broken stud on mine........the top one on No.1 cyl.......
it broke flush with the head.......i now have to drill it out.........





heres a question for everyone.....

will removing the webbing from the exhaust manifold weaken the manifold and cause it to crack......??? NO
as cast iron is not really reknown for its flexibilty.......



or is the webbing whats expanding and pushing on the studs......?



personally.....looking at the manifold.......it doesnt seem too strong.....
and with the webbing removed.......it looks as though its gonna just crack through......

does anyone make extractors for the Td5....???

Baz:D

[DEFENDERZOOK]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/50112-broken-manifold-studs-again.html

cheers phil




thanks......that was an interesting read......

took my manifold off last night and took in to work today.......
and its still sitting on my bench.......didnt get a chance to touch it.......we were flat out today........tomorrow looks to be the same......


i did manage to put a straight edge against it.........and its bent like a banana.......

i was thinking of painting it yellow........

it was lifted up on the ends......im surprised only one stud broke.......

[scott oz]

Defiantly a question that is probably obvious to those who know.

I would assume that you are better to have the manifold skimmed flat before you elongate and or enlarge the stud holes?

I’m 90% sure that I going to go up to the 300TDI studs. From previous posts this increases the stud size from 8mm to 10mm.

[discowhite]

no, it would be better to remove the webbing and slot the hole b4 its surfaced. if you do the webs after its been surfaced there it the chance that the surface will warp.

cheers phil

[DEFENDERZOOK]

yep.....that is correct.......its best to do all the work first.....then get it faced just before you fit it........


my manifold has curled up at the ends.......it broke off the front stud and started to leak at the last stud.......



and therses quite a bit of a bend......if you sit it flat......on its face......both ends are over 1mm off the bench.......

[discowhite]

thats nothin!!! think barry's first one was 3mm at each end:eek:

cheers phil

[Redback]

Defiantly a question that is probably obvious to those who know.

I would assume that you are better to have the manifold skimmed flat before you elongate and or enlarge the stud holes?

I’m 90% sure that I going to go up to the 300TDI studs. From previous posts this increases the stud size from 8mm to 10mm.

Have it faced after you do the webbing and holes


no, it would be better to remove the webbing and slot the hole b4 its surfaced. if you do the webs after its been surfaced there it the chance that the surface will warp.

cheers phil

Yes


yep.....that is correct.......its best to do all the work first.....then get it faced just before you fit it........


my manifold has curled up at the ends.......it broke off the front stud and started to leak at the last stud.......



and therses quite a bit of a bend......if you sit it flat......on its face......both ends are over 1mm off the bench.......



See below


thats nothin!!! think barry's first one was 3mm at each end:eek:

cheers phil

I think it was more Phil, I had to have it replaced as it was too much to surface:mad:

[DEFENDERZOOK]

im wondering wether i should heat it up with the oxy and let it cool on its own........
just to remove any stresses that may be in it before i get it decked.......


if its warped......it may just return closer to its original shape now that theres no studs pulling and pushing against it........


any ideas or theories on this one.......????

[Blknight.aus]

ID do it in an oven that way you get an even heat.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i can just see me now.......with the wife coming home and finding me standing at the oven........

and she opens it and finds lurchs manifold cooking inside......

you got room for me and lurch at your place..........??






i might just try it with the oxy.........itll be safer..........and hotter.......

[discowhite]

it can be done, but its better to cool cast's, iron and steel in lime powder.
air cooling cast can cool a bit too quick on the extremities. you want to evenly heat it up why would you not want to let it evenly cool?

cheers phil

[DEFENDERZOOK]

very interesting.......didnt think of that......


what and where......is lime powder.......?

[Blknight.aus]

its like sand made from lime..... as in limestone but powdered.

thats why I do it in ovens.

insert manifold

turn oven on flat out

wait an hour


turn oven off

wait another hour.

remove manifold.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i might have to wait till the weekend when the missus goes to work.........

then i can use the oven safely........

[Blknight.aus]

she sleeps right?

[scott oz]

So you go to the local hardware store and buy lime powder get the wife's best baking tray fill he manifold and cover it. Bake it for an hour then let it cool in the oven before removing.

Clean the manifold and done. Rather then it's ready for skimming.


Is there any decisive advantage to doing this

[Blknight.aus]

when your working some metals (in particualar removing webbings or welding)
heat soaking and slow cooling can allow the metal to naturalise its position prior to any measuring or machining.

IF....

the metal is stressed and you machine it and then you heat it it can want to assume its "more comfortable" position which can then put stress on other fittings (say manifold bolts).


hope that makes sense.

[scott oz]

Thanks Blknight

Is it really as simple as I said you just ask for lime at the local hardware store

Fill the manifold and sourround/cover it in lime and bake for an hour and allow to completely cool.

Is there any risk of the process damaging the manifold.

[Blknight.aus]

you dont need the lime if your doing it in an oven.

the lime acts primarily as an insulator. It also can leech impurities away from the metal but its been a loooong time since I touched metalurgical chemistry.

its really that simple..

do all the work you want to do short of facing the manifold

heat soak the manifold

get the machine faced flat.

[scott oz]

Blknight,

Thanks that makes it easier to explain to the wife. Just baking the manifold.

Mate seems nothing to loose so will give it a go once I've elongated the holes and taped for the EGT probe.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

what egt and how much are they.........


ive been meaning to do this for about 3 years now........
but i keep putting it off till next weekend........ :angel:

[scott oz]

Depends how much you wish to spend.

I’ve elected to go with the MADMAN multi function EMS 1 http://www.nata.net.au/ (http://www.nata.net.au/) . I got the probe from the US and it already has the 90degree bend. So while the manifold is “off” I’ll tap for the probe.

There are alternatives http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190272617115&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190272617115&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11) . A number of members use this unit. And VDO make one.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i wish to spend heaps.......

but simply cant afford to.......





do you know the safe temp. range and the danger range for a Td5.......?

i have found that when ive been pushing lurch hard in top gear up a hill.....for example......
i get a burning smell start to come inside the cabin.......

i just put it down to an oily section of the exhaust getting hotter than normal and burning off the oil.......

i back off the go pedal to allow things a chance to cool off......


the moral of the story is......things are getting hotter than they should......and i would like to know how hot.......

so an egt guage is what i need to avoid any damage......i may have just been lucky so far......

[Redback]

Sorry as this may seem blunt, but, WhyTF do you want to bake the manifold, DO THE BLOODY MOD AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER:mad:

OK

Baz.

[Blknight.aus]

to chuck it out there...


because theres been one case that I know of where the removal of the webbing has been a factor that has lead to the manifold cracking.

it might not have been the only factor and maybe baking it would have helped... it cant hurt it.

[gruntfuttock]

I have been folowing this one with great interest, and I tend to agree with blknight.
If you weld cast iron you must heat it up nice and hot before you start welding, otherwise bad things can happen. Bad things may not happen but you are putting more chances on the negative side. Cast iron while strong can be fickle. So by baking it there is more chance that things will go the way you want, and not the other way.

That is just my 2cents worth.

[scott oz]

Defenderzook

There are a few threads on the fitting pro's and con's of EGT. My take is that generally the upper limit is 750c and things go wrong.

[scott oz]

OK went out on the weekend to set up the manifold to drill and elongate. I measured the existing holes and note that they are 8.87mm. Defiantly smaller than 9mm as 9mm drill will not pass through and there’s slop in the 8.5mm bit. Veinier gives 8.87

I’ve got a 10mm end mill so I was planning to use this and upgrade to 300TDI studs which I understand are 10mm

Given the above, will a 10mm elongation be too tight for the 10mm studs. With the 8.97mm current diameter I was thinking of just elongating the existing holes.

I’m probably a little pedantic but would appreciate any comments.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

how much to machine the exhaust manifold......


from those that have done this.......

[scott oz]

how much to machine the exhaust manifold......


from those that have done this.......
I was quoted $80

[DEFENDERZOOK]

thats what i got quoted........i thought it was a bit much.......

but he said they are hard to hold so he can machine them.......


if theres a bit of mucking around to set them up.....then i guess thats a fair enough reason........