Fuels

[plsnitch]

We had a fuel injector replaced and advised that Woolworths (Caltex) fuel likely cause and biodiesel not suitable for Landeys.
1. Have others found Woolworths fuel a problem?
2. What about Coles Express (Shell)?
3. Is biodiesel not recommended for Land Rovers?
4. Can fuel injectors be damaged by these fuels?:confused:

[isuzu110]

What engine are you running ?

[JDNSW]

It depends on the engine!

1. Have others found Woolworths fuel a problem?

I have used largely Woolworths fuel for ten years with no problems in the 4BD1

2. What about Coles Express (Shell)?

Have insufficient experience to comment


3. Is biodiesel not recommended for Land Rovers?

Biodiesel is not recommended by the manufacturers for most engines. Whether there is a good basis for this is unclear, but one of the problems is that biodiesel tends to vary more in composition, and the manufacturers are just being cautious. I have used biodiesel without problems, and so have others, but some have reported problems.

4. Can fuel injectors be damaged by these fuels?

Not that I am aware of - BUT regardless of the source of the fuel dirty fuel or fuel with water in it can and will damage injectors. And my guess is that if the fuel did cause the damage to the injector - just because that is what you were told does not make it fact - it will have been water or dirt in the fuel rather than the source of the fuel.

Hope this helps,

John

[isuzurover]

As you state, the fuel is supplied by Caltex or Shell, and should be more or less the same as what you would be buying at a caltex/mobil or shell/BP servo.

Woolworths servos here don't sell biodiesel. What is it? B5? B10? B20?

Biodiesel should not cause any major issues, however may not be manufacturer approved for use in commonrail LR diesels???

Biodiesel actually has HIGHER lubricity than ULSD, so should be better for the injection equipment, and in parts of EU / US it is mandated that ALL diesel must be minimum B5.

Biodiesel has a shorter shelf-life than petro-diesel, and also higher fuel dilution (of engine oil).

EDIT - biodiesel is likely to be BETTER at reducing injector wear than petro ULSD

[Blknight.aus]

bio diesel is fine in anything upto but exluding the td5 on.

bio diesel breaks down and looses lubricity at the injection pressures that the new donks deal with.

[isuzurover]

bio diesel is fine in anything upto but exluding the td5 on.

bio diesel breaks down and looses lubricity at the injection pressures that the new donks deal with.

Not correct from anything I have read/heard.

The reason many manufacturers have issues with BD and Common Rail engines is due to the ability of BD to oxidise/break down more readily than petro-diesel.

Common-rail engines have high rail temps and recirculate larger amounts of fuel than older diesels. So the manufacturers are worried that this might lead to issues with the fuel polymerising and/or oxidising.

Many people run up to B100 in CR engines with no issues - but - do so at your own risk, and as mentioned, it takes a long time for the small savings to pay for new injectors.

[Blknight.aus]

Not correct from anything I have read/heard.

Urm, just to be picky... but couldnt


The reason many manufacturers have issues with BD and Common Rail engines is due to the ability of BD to oxidise/break down more readily than petro-diesel.

that mean the same as


bio diesel breaks down and looses lubricity at the injection pressures that the new donks deal with.
that?

[seano87]

Woolworths diesel contains up to 2% biodiesel.

They begin with standard Caltex diesel and biodiesel is added and some other things to umm... water it down? I've asked Caltex directly if it is the same product as they sell in regular servo's and was told the above (minus the watering down bit...).

With a 300tdi I have found I get ~5-10% worse fuel economy with Woolworths branded diesel compared to standard Caltex.

There have also been reports local to me that water has been found in Woolies diesel, but cannot vouch for accuracy - only hearsay.

No experience with Shell.

I use either BP or regular Caltex where possible, never had a problem.

PS. I even work for Woolworths and won't use their diesel. Use unleaded though, never had a problem.

Seano

[isuzurover]

Urm, just to be picky... but couldnt

that mean the same as

that?

Hi Dave, maybe I didn't quite get your meaning, but to me it sounded like you were saying it was an instantaneous thing that happens at high pressure.

Whereas oxidation is a slow process which occus when the hot fuel (CR injection rails apparently reach temps up to 1000C) gets back to the tank where there is some O2. Polymerisation or cracking is not that rapid either - and also more pressure than temperature related.

[Kandy]

Went south with a full tank of Woolies diesel years ago in the 200tdi, worst economy ever and ran like crap-- refilled with Shell later and back to normal -- never used it since, I use BP, truckies I know swear by it.

[Blknight.aus]

what happens when you crack over about say 15-17000 psi (which is less than the nominal injection pressure of a td5 is that the bio can no longer "skin" so you get metal to metal contact.

think along the lines of putting a 0-5wt engine oil in a diff its better than nothing but as it cant resist the pressure of the face contact on the teeth.

THEN

add in that as you heat the bio up in the injectors from the pressure and nozzle exposure to the combustion chamber how it sort of caramlises and causes other problems.

I sort of summated it as Ive done it many times before.

heres the kicker....

properly made 100% bio has less problems than any of the blends, its the impurities in the blends and in a less than perfect batch of bio that cause most of the problems.

if/when the come up with bio thats stable at the injection pressures the td5 deals with I'll be on it like a shot and when it eats a part away (like a fuel line) I'll then find a suitable replacement for it.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

when you buy diesel........how do you know what it is......?


can you tell by the colour....smell......or taste......?
how do you know its not bio diesel.......?

not all bowsers are labelled bio diesel.........

as far as i am concerned.......we dont know what we are getting.......


unleaded is the same.......if you use premium.......you can feel a difference on late model engines.......
most times if you fill up with pulp these days.......it feels the same as the unleaded you just had in the tank.......
E10 seems to run better than pulp........are we really getting pulp.....or just unleaded at a premium price......?



is there any way of knowing....short of carrying a laboratory in the boot.....?

[Blknight.aus]

if its got bio in it by law the percentage is supposed to be displayed clearly on the pump.

unfortunately clearly can mean "in 10 point font on a sign on the bottom of the pump where you dont look at it"

[plsnitch]

Thanks!

[rick130]

All the Caltex diesel up this way has the "up to 2% bio-diesel" label on the pump and it's never been an issue with any of our diesels the few times we've used it, nor any trucks I know of.
Mum's old TD5 Defender had the best fuel economy they've ever had running the Caltex diesel in Northern NSW.

Here we run mainly BP or Shell, but it all comes from Newcastle out of the same depot, I believe.