07 Puma Engine Rattle

[Searover]

There have been discussions on this subject and I'm wondering if I've just had one of those moments?

Had just changed into 2 gear accelerated and a horrible rattly valve bounce knocking noise lasting only a second or so immediately backed off no more rattle and the engine light appeaerd, no power on acceleration pulled over to the verge turned the engine off and restarted engine, light still on but drives as normal with full power available?

I guess it's off to the dealer again next week:mad:, has any one else had similar experience?

Thanks

[one_iota]

Yes.

It happened to me once several months ago...the dealer replaced a couple of sensors in the fuel system and it has not happened since.

[dullbird]

yes its exactly what the other 7 people on here have experinced

[maggsie]

yes its exactly what the other 7 people on here have experinced.

Does this problem still exist on the 09 models? If it is, they have had 2 years to rectify this problem along with a number of others. I am a land rover fan but these ongoing problems don't inspire any confidence especially when I am thinking of buying one in the near future.

Maggsie

[dullbird]

.

Does this problem still exist on the 09 models? If it is, they have had 2 years to rectify this problem along with a number of others. I am a land rover fan but these ongoing problems don't inspire any confidence especially when I am thinking of buying one in the near future.

Maggsie

Maggsie in all fairness to the dealership......up until I put my post up "where do you keep your PUMA" I was the only person that had been experiencing this problem for over a year.

I knew of no other person that had the problem other than 1 person in the uk.
I think you will find a few people are only starting to experience the problem.

[one_iota]

.

Does this problem still exist on the 09 models? If it is, they have had 2 years to rectify this problem along with a number of others. I am a land rover fan but these ongoing problems don't inspire any confidence especially when I am thinking of buying one in the near future.

Maggsie

For most of the 7 this particular issue has been very minor only the sensors being faulty.

Mine is the 09 albeit delivered in August 08.

I've done a couple of long trips without incident and the couple of minor things that happened have been fixed under warranty without quibble.

I haven't regretted my decision to buy and with eyes wide open thanks to what I have learned here wouldn't think twice about going anywhere in my Defender.

[Searover]

Following up on my first post, about an hour after the problem occurred I tried starting again with no problems and no engine light illuminated, no chance to take it for a run will do that tomorrow night.

I think dullbird in an earlier post is trying to associate as to where you keep your defender to the problem, if this helps mine is normally housed in the garage (Disco in the carport:eek:) but last night it was out side with the temperature down to about 4 c,being one off the coldest nights for a while in Perth.

Thanks

[dullbird]

Following up on my first post, about an hour after the problem occurred I tried starting again with no problems and no engine light illuminated, no chance to take it for a run will do that tomorrow night.

I think dullbird in an earlier post is trying to associate as to where you keep your defender to the problem, if this helps mine is normally housed in the garage (Disco in the carport:eek:) but last night it was out side with the temperature down to about 4 c,being one off the coldest nights for a while in Perth.

Thanks



Yes there is a link between this problem and the cold or at least there appears to be so far excluding one possibly two cars...but one of them lives in a colder climate

[Searover]

Yes there is a link between this problem and the cold or at least there appears to be so far excluding one possibly two cars...but one of them lives in a colder climate

As our night temperatures are dropping fast (can go as low as minus 2 degrees celsius) will do some trials and post the results over the next couple weeks, although did not have a problem last winter.

Regards

[sashadidi]

As our night temperatures are dropping fast (can go as low as minus 2 degrees celsius) will do some trials and post the results over the next couple weeks, although did not have a problem last winter.

Regards
my feb 2008 out in frost _3 no problems:)

[Scallops]

I had ice on my bonnet a few days back - started it with outside temp at 3 degrees - no problem. Warmed up the engine for 5 minutes before driving, and took it easy until temp came up.

[dullbird]

I had ice on my bonnet a few days back - started it with outside temp at 3 degrees - no problem. Warmed up the engine for 5 minutes before driving, and took it easy until temp came up.

well aren't you lucky.....That you have such a bomb proof car!;)

[Psimpson7]

Hey DB,

What's the fequency of these issues in the UK or mainland Europe? Bear in mind it is a lot colder there for a lot longer, would you expect there to be far more cases of this? Is this the case, or does Aus suffer more cases?

Rgds
Pete

[dullbird]

Hey DB,

What's the fequency of these issues in the UK or mainland Europe? Bear in mind it is a lot colder there for a lot longer, would you expect there to be far more cases of this? Is this the case, or does Aus suffer more cases?

Rgds
Pete

Pete I'am hearing of cases in the UK but not a lot as of yet same here though there wasn't any case's other than myself up until about a week and a half ago (maybe apart from solmanic but at the time we weren't sure we had the same thing)..And I have had the problem for over a year!

Thats one thing I said to Ian that I would of expected to see more in the UK.....because of the temperature.

Who knows there could be variables....Fuel/antifreeze...temprature during the day probably being double what it is in the uk before tumbling at night.
Could even be down to mechanical sympathy some people may have it but may not know

There could potentially be so many reason's why not....The same as Why was the PUMA released over there for a year and then have so many problems when it comes here? why did it taken them a year to find the water in the fuel and why a number of cases here and a few mentioned in the uk when they get more avaerage rainfall over a period of time.

I can't answer that question but I have people working on it..As talking to a guy in the Uk, Landrover UK appear to be well aware of the problem! So there must of been a fair few cases for them to be bothered about it. Might just be the case that we haven't heard of many.

I'm going to talk to the dealer and find out if they have heard anything..

[solmanic]

Well here is a quick summary of my engine rattle:

- Rattle same as DB's and others' descriptions.
- Occurs within 1-2km (5 min) from starting, worse in cold weather.
- Started happening within three weeks of taking delivery of the car (Jan 2008).
- For first six months the rattle occurred increasing in frequency to about one in every three mornings.
- At six months it started getting quite bad culminating in an engine warning light coming on (June 2008).
- Reported to dealer, fuel pressure valve & fuel common rail changed.
- Over the next two months (colder weather) the rattle persisted, same frequency, sometimes quite badly but not enough to trigger any warning lights.
- Following first service the rattle was less frequent, but still occurred perhaps once a fortnight.
- Notified LR customer service so it was on record as having been reported more than once and not resolved (Oct 2008).
- Following a long trip in September 2008 I drained a LOT of water out of the filter/separator and informed the dealer.
- Second service Feb 2009 - dealer informed me that they had found a fault code logged that probably related to the rattle - replaced the EGR March 2009.

The rattle is much less frequent, but has occurred at least three times since the EGR was replaced in March. Warmer weather and now different morning routine means it is hard to say whether the rattle is as bad as before.

The vehicle is kept in a car port, and was prior to moving, so the general environment hasn't changed, just the morning driving routine. Like DB, my dealer had the car for three days last July and was not able to replicate the problem, even though it was occurring much more often. I also suspect they had the vehicle stored inside or were not starting it when it was cold enough to cause the rattle.

My dilemma now is this, the rattle is not happening often enough for me to be confident that the dealer could ever replicate it in the workshop. Also, if I could be sure that it wasn't going to cause any long term damage to the engine, I could live with it.

[Scallops]

well aren't you lucky.....That you have such a bomb proof car!;)

Maybe - but I was not trying to be smug - just letting you know my situation in regard to this issue in an attempt to help. Perhaps warming the vehicle up for at least 5 minutes before driving off prevents this problem.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Maybe - but I was not trying to be smug - just letting you know my situation in regard to this issue in an attempt to help. Perhaps warming the vehicle up for at least 5 minutes before driving off prevents this problem.

BTW that's not necessarily a good idea. You have a look in your manual and I'd be surprised if it doesn't advise you start and then drive off gently immediately. Idling for that long wastes fuel and can cause other problems. I'm sure I've heard of bore glazing and oil contamination before - help?

[dullbird]

Maybe - but I was not trying to be smug - just letting you know my situation in regard to this issue in an attempt to help.
Perhaps warming the vehicle up for at least 5 minutes before driving off prevents this problem.


makes no difference!......

He has tried that in the past.
And I have personally waited in the car for it to warm up a bit (not that 5mins gets much heat into the engine at tick over) and driven very slowly to see if I can avoid it...but no it still did it to me, I did it to see if it was the way Ian was driving. I think you either have this issue or you don't or something a long the way helps create it. I'm not sure.

[Scallops]

BTW that's not necessarily a good idea. You have a look in your manual and I'd be surprised if it doesn't advise you start and then drive off gently immediately. Idling for that long wastes fuel and can cause other problems. I'm sure I've heard of bore glazing and oil contamination before - help?

So what happens when you're sitting in traffic - or on a club drive waiting in a convoy line? etc etc - there are many times when the vehicle is going to have the engine running for at least 5 minutes without driving anywhere. What is the different with these situations and at startup? :confused:

I've always started vehicles like this and I haven't had any issues - length of wait before driving off depends on how cold it is. The amount of fuel used at idle is negligible - I never get worse that 10l per 100km at any rate so it obviously isn't affecting my consumption in any noticeable way.

But I take the message from dullbird that warming up the vehicle makes no difference in the case of this issue. I, and I'm sure I say this on behalf of everyone here, we all hope your problem is resolved to your satisfaction and quickly. :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So what happens when you're sitting in traffic - or on a club drive waiting in a convoy line? etc etc - there are many times when the vehicle is going to have the engine running for at least 5 minutes without driving anywhere. What is the different with these situations and at startup? :confused:

I've always started vehicles like this and I haven't had any issues - length of wait before driving off depends on how cold it is. The amount of fuel used at idle is negligible - I never get worse that 10l per 100km at any rate so it obviously isn't affecting my consumption in any noticeable way.

My apologies for the hi-jack!

I really don't know the full story on this. However a couple of the people on here have said that excessive idling or idling warm ups are bad for diesels as they don't use much fuel at tick over, so run cold. If the engine was hot I gather this causes a cooling, and if it's cold, I guess they run cold for longer. Apparently some of the truck operators will sack drivers if they see an idle period of more than two minutes on the tachograph for fear of glazing bores.

From page 73 of my manual...

"Warming-up
DO NOT (manual uses caps for emphasis) warm-up the engine by allowing it to idle at slow speed. However remember that the diesel engine must not run above idle speed until the oil pressure light extinguishes.

In the interests of fuel economy, it is advisable to drive the vehicle straight away, as soon as the oil pressure warning light extinguishes.

Remember that harsh acceleration and labouring the engine before the normal operating temperature has been reached can damage the engine."


Me, because of what it says in the manual... I just jump in the car, start it, put my seat belt on and grab my sunglasses and back out and drive off gently. By the time the time you close the garage and so on it's probably been running for 30 seconds by the time we take off. If the car is going to be idling longer than a couple of minutes I switch it off :) If I was about to launch into driving on soft sand from cold I might start it and idle it for a few of minutes.

It's probably not going to ever make much difference. :)

PS:I'm on the mend from the flu and i promise I'll have less time for typing again soon!

[dullbird]

I have heard this also...I don't warm up my disco I start it without glowing put on my seat belt and back off the drive...
like you I drive gently without to much pedal before the engine gets up to temp.

[solmanic]

Yes, I also remember that warning. I don't "warm-up" the car, but I just drive gently for the first few km until the temperature needle starts rising.

Now back on topic, I'm not any sort of mechanic but I have often wondered if the rattle was somehow caused by condensation in the air intake drawing small particles of water into the engine when cold. The thing is, Defenders are rare in that the engine air intake is piped directly to the outside of the vehicle so any moisture on the intake grille, or inside the plastic snorkel or whatever would presumably be ingested straight away when cold, before the whole system has had time to heat up and there is no more condensation anywhere. Obviously this would be directly affected by things like ambient temperature and where & how the vehicle was garaged overnight. Just a thought.



This is totally based on the idea that such a rattle would be caused by moisture being drawn into the engine in the first place - would it?

[dullbird]

Ian has also considered this as we were finding that it happened more so on cold dewy mornings

[TimNZ]

Yes, I also remember that warning. I don't "warm-up" the car, but I just drive gently for the first few km until the temperature needle starts rising.

Now back on topic, I'm not any sort of mechanic but I have often wondered if the rattle was somehow caused by condensation in the air intake drawing small particles of water into the engine when cold. The thing is, Defenders are rare in that the engine air intake is piped directly to the outside of the vehicle so any moisture on the intake grille, or inside the plastic snorkel or whatever would presumably be ingested straight away when cold, before the whole system has had time to heat up and there is no more condensation anywhere. Obviously this would be directly affected by things like ambient temperature and where & how the vehicle was garaged overnight. Just a thought.

This is totally based on the idea that such a rattle would be caused by moisture being drawn into the engine in the first place - would it?

Just to through a spanner in your train of thought, my 110 has lived in a garage all it's life and still does the rattle thing occasionally, it's also very rare that it is damp over here in WA. I can't see any fault codes logged in the ECU relating to the rattle either.

It is very strange that the engine does its rattle only when it returns to idle after a gear change or 2. I would have thought that if it was a problem caused by poor fuel, or air in the fuel system, the noise would occur when the engine is revving, not idling.

Surely it has to be a sensor problem, or a problem with the fuel rail pressure releif valve sticking????? Hopefully LR figure it out before our warranties start to expire :(

Tim

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My apologies for the hi-jack before!

I know I'm not directly affected by this but I'm interested. :)

I think it would be beneficial if someone could video the noise and post it up?

[dullbird]

we are trying!! but only have camera on the phone which is crap...I can her it quite clearly but I'm not sure others would as they don't really know what there listening for.

Need to borrow a video camera to record it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Here is one taken of a petrol r56 MINI sounding like a diesel to give you ideas. If you can do the pommy disgruntled owner whine as well that can't hurt :D

YouTube - R56 Mini Cooper S engine rattle

[dullbird]

so how is that going to give me ideas? you saying you want me to run in front of the car filming with the bonnet up while he drives it....and puts it into third.

I don't think I can run that fast backwards :lol2:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

so how is that going to give me ideas? you saying you want me to run in front of the car filming with the bonnet up while he drives it....and puts it into third.

I don't think I can run that fast backwards :lol2:

Have you got a bullbar? Just pop the bonnet off before you head off and sit on the bullbar until it happens :)

Seriously I thought once it started it just continued for a couple of minutes and you could stop the car and film it? I didn't realise you could only hear it while it was driving. :(

[dullbird]

yeah you can only hear it for a max of about 30sec....and only when driving

[solmanic]

Just to through a spanner in your train of thought, my 110 has lived in a garage all it's life and still does the rattle thing occasionally, it's also very rare that it is damp over here in WA. I can't see any fault codes logged in the ECU relating to the rattle either.

It is very strange that the engine does its rattle only when it returns to idle after a gear change or 2. I would have thought that if it was a problem caused by poor fuel, or air in the fuel system, the noise would occur when the engine is revving, not idling.

Surely it has to be a sensor problem, or a problem with the fuel rail pressure releif valve sticking????? Hopefully LR figure it out before our warranties start to expire

OK, how about the possibility that it is somehow related to the fuel pump not working correctly when cold? Or a seal somewhere along the fuel line that's leaking air into the system whilst cold?

The thing is, maybe the rattle isn't only happening between gear changes or at idle/overrun, but maybe it is also happening under load and we can't detect it then with all the other noise? Once recently I was accelerating uphill about the same distance from home when the rattle usually occurs, and I got a brief, distinctly harsh spot of revving - like the rattle only different because the driving scenario was different.

[dullbird]

OK, how about the possibility that it is somehow related to the fuel pump not working correctly when cold? Or a seal
somewhere along the fuel line that's leaking air into the system whilst cold?

The thing is, maybe the rattle isn't only happening between gear changes or at idle/overrun, but maybe it is also happening under load and we can't detect it then with all the other noise? Once recently I was accelerating uphill about the same distance from home when the rattle usually occurs, and I got a brief, distinctly harsh spot of revving - like the rattle only different because the driving scenario was different.


This is what Ian suggested initially to the dealer.....unfortunately they don't really listen to us and go by what they know and what LR UK tell them.

I don't believe it is doing it when under load......as I think if it behaved the same way it does it when its cold it would lose power..
When it does it when its cold, if its bad you can not accelerate!

Ours has happened more so when coming on boost. So engine noise is already elevated and we can definitely hear it.

[Scallops]

My apologies for the hi-jack!

From page 73 of my manual...

"Warming-up
DO NOT (manual uses caps for emphasis) warm-up the engine by allowing it to idle at slow speed. However remember that the diesel engine must not run above idle speed until the oil pressure light extinguishes.

In the interests of fuel economy, it is advisable to drive the vehicle straight away, as soon as the oil pressure warning light extinguishes.

Remember that harsh acceleration and labouring the engine before the normal operating temperature has been reached can damage the engine."


Me, because of what it says in the manual...

Without wanting to add to a highjack - but I thought this was an interesting aside....

There is no such warning anywhere in the Puma's handbook - so LR have taken it out of the new manual.

I have Googled the topic and the majority of answers I can find suggest that, in cold operating temps, warming up at idle for up to 5 minutes, or more specifically, to (160F) is optimal, although Blknight disagrees with this (PM).

Another reference suggests that all modern engines are "run in" at manufacture time - in that they are operated over the rev range (flogged I gather). According to this source, cylinder glazing cannot subsequently occur and the engine can be idled to warm up without any adverse effect. My engine uses no oil, has never exhibited the issue originally discussed, and appears to use less fuel than most other Pumas. Again, not gloating - just my simple observations.

At any rate - LR have taken this advice out of the manual. I was pretty sure I read the thing like scripture when I got the vehicle and followed all instructions to the letter. :D

[solmanic]

Another reference suggests that all modern engines are "run in" at manufacture time - in that they are operated over the rev range (flogged I gather)....

At any rate - LR have taken this advice out of the manual. I was pretty sure I read the thing like scripture when I got the vehicle and followed all instructions to the letter. :D

Yes, they are indeed flogged in the factory. I have witnessed it - quite impressive. At the end of the Defender line there is a rolling road in a booth. Each vehicle is driven onto it and they rev the snot out of it. Then they jam on the brakes - to test ABS etc - and the machine bucks and jumps before they then calmly drive it out into the yard.

The "no warm up" info wasn't in the manual I didn't think. It was posted from some other source, but heavily backed up by the gurus on here. It's not that you just turn the vehicle on and drive off at full speed, it's more that you don't just leave it sitting on idle for ages.

As for your vehicle using less fuel... you drive like my grandmother so it's no surprise :p.



...Although she did drive a Hillman Hunter, and rarely off-road.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

At any rate - LR have taken this advice out of the manual. I was pretty sure I read the thing like scripture when I got the vehicle and followed all instructions to the letter. :D

I don't know :o :D

Maybe they did it to try and cause heated discussions on the internets :) There is someone back at LR HQ right now chortling to him/herself :wasntme:


As for your vehicle using less fuel... you drive like my grandmother so it's no surprise .

When we meet you on a AULRO drive and we come to that big hill.... we'll be chanting.. go on Scallops... drive it like your grandma borrowed it to drive to church on sunday... :D :D

[Scallops]

The "no warm up" info wasn't in the manual I didn't think. It was posted from some other source, but heavily backed up by the gurus on here.

Read between the lines - I think this needs more answers from our dealers...

[I]Title: 2.4 Puma Engine Knock Noise.
Type: LD - Defender - All Years - Special Service Messages - Engine
Name / Part No: SSM38792
Info Type: Service Bulletins
Version No: 1
Date Uploaded: 21 Jul 2008
Models: LD - Defender
Title: 2.4 Puma Engine Knock Noise.
Last Modified: 21-JUL-2008 09:44
Category: Engine
Symptom: 497000 Engine Noise

Content Issue: Heavy audible knocking heard on start up.
Cause: On start up oil pressures can cause the piston cooling jets, (PCJ), to latch into a zero flow condition. Due to hysteresis effect in design the jets do not unlatch until the engine is warm and the oil pressures lower again. During this time with no pressurized oil jet flow to the lower pistons / cylinder bores, overheat and scuff conditions / damage can occur.

Action: Replace the engine assay but ensure only engines post serial # ELD00080707063602 are used.
This condition will not occur on vehicles post assured Vin# 9A767162.
Engines post the info above are fitted with modified PCJ internal springs and this issue is now closed.

Now I'm no expert (clearly :D) - but I don't want to start driving a vehicle with no pressurised oil jet flow to the lower pistons etc etc.

Perhaps this has happened to vehicles that make this rattle. :confused:

PS - One final point from me on this - I rang the dealer to ask them their opinion on warming up the Puma engine as I'm doing - for what it is worth, they said it was, "a good idea and to continue doing so". Then I rang MR Automotive - their advice? "Warming up the engine as you're doing will cause no damage and is the best thing you can do".

And as to driving like a Grandpa - guilty as charged, but I'll have a crack at driving it anywhere.

[solmanic]

I have already presented this TB to the dealer with several pointed questions - naturally they dismissed it as irrelevant. I have to admit though, I can't say I've experienced a "Heavy audible knocking heard on start up" like the one referred to here. The rattle has existed pretty much from new and has only ever been a "rattle" which never occurs immediately on start-up, but always a few minutes later. Besides that , we now have evidence of 2009 spec vehicles exhibiting the same rattle (One Iota).

[dullbird]

as said before...it is not on start up and its not a knock its a rattle.

[Allan]

Got same Rattle in my Puma this morning. First time I have heard it. This morning it was cool and damp in Perth. Noise only lasted a couple of seconds but code warning light went on. I drove the vehicle for about 1 hour with no other symptems. Took it to Barbagallo's to get code cleared, sevice sugested if it happens again book it in. Could not red code, machine was being used. will and wait and see
Allan

[JohnR]

As for your vehicle using less fuel... you drive like my grandmother so it's no surprise :p.

...Although she did drive a Hillman Hunter, and rarely off-road.


I don't know :o :D
When we meet you on a AULRO drive and we come to that big hill.... we'll be chanting.. go on Scallops... drive it like your grandma borrowed it to drive to church on sunday... :D :D

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::burnrubber: Your driving prowess is earning you quiet a reputation Dan :D

Cheers,

[Scallops]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::burnrubber: Your driving prowess is earning you quiet a reputation Dan :D

Cheers,

Yep - yet I'm the one who has taken my Puma across the Gunbarrel/Old Gunbarrel/Simpson/Big Red/Kimberleys.........:p Don't listen to Russell Coyte - seeing Australia flat out is overrated! :D

[Rugrat]

I can't see any fault codes logged in the ECU relating to the rattle either.


Well the EGR was replaced yesterday - now to see what happens. Being an intermittent issue it may take a while to rear its head again. But it was damp and relatively cool this morning down south.....