PDA

View Full Version : Hybrid series Landrover



Casper
23rd May 2009, 10:13 PM
I cant remember where I saw it but I remember reading an artical about a military series landrover which had an electric motor driving through the PTO on the TC so it could run in a type of stealth mode.

I know Ive seen it some where but has anyone else heard of it and would it be possible to build a system to say add extra power for say over taking in the same way?

Kind of like the KERS system on the F1's.

Blknight.aus
23rd May 2009, 11:32 PM
Ive been messing with the concepts for that for ages.....

should work and work nicely but for the fact that you have to carry around a large electric motor and the batteries to drive it. I was always going to do it the other way around

big electric motor with regernative braking where the 2.25 used to sit and a small (read sub 1l) turbo diesel hooked up to the Rear PTO via a torque converter.

you could kick the diesel in for additional power on over take or if stationary kick the tcase to neutral and use the regen ability to charge the batteries.

locorr
24th May 2009, 10:20 AM
If you had a big electric motor you wouldn't need more power. The small motor could be put anywhere for purely recharging.
I like the idea of a electric booster motor. It could run of a switch on the floor under the accelerator. Flat to the floor gives both motors. No need for controllers on the electric motor that way because when you want it on you want full power. I wonder what size motor would be needed to get a reasonable boost.

Blknight.aus
24th May 2009, 10:43 AM
we sure aint talking windshield wiper motors.

youd want to be looking at about the 10hp minimum range for it to be effective (and then how many batteries do you need to drive that and the controller as well)

and as for the "on off" switch under the accelerator yovue seen your startermotor power cables right, and those things are good for 2hp, tops, for short periods.

then you've got the problem of charging the batteries after youve given it everything to get past a vehicle.

Im not saying it cant be done it just may not be as simple as it seems.

procrastination inc
24th May 2009, 12:59 PM
"startermotor power cables right, and those things are good for 2hp, tops, for short periods."

at 12V

at 120V they will be ok for the same durations at 20hp.

High current is your enemy, not high power.

Blknight.aus
24th May 2009, 04:37 PM
my bad, I worded that poorly....

I ment to include both the motor AND the powercables...

the full wordy version that I badly edited prior to posting made mention of both the size of the motor and the cables....

Cables needing to carry the amps and the size of the motor, a landy starter motor (specifically the series diesel) is good for about 2hp.

the biggest problem I see with it is the mass of the storage medium required for it to make any meaning full difference at the end of the day.

with the money youd spend on that many batteries and the controller to handle it I reckon you could just about go a nos kit which would give you the same effect..

:)

procrastination inc
24th May 2009, 07:42 PM
oic

you had the whole scrapheap challenge thing happening

Blknight.aus
24th May 2009, 08:14 PM
yep, my editing skills are suckfull, especially when theres blondage on tv...

Casper
24th May 2009, 08:27 PM
Granted that the KERS system is probably worth a mill or so for each car it's on, I thought a bank of batteries from something like a golf buggy or electric fork lift and the motor and controller the same would make for a fairly economical set up.

The 36v or 48v system may be a bit of a problem off a standard alternator but that could be rectified by running the drive motor off the PTO as a generator (being a series wound motor it should be possible) to top up the batteries.

The trick would be to have it kick into charge mode on coast or braking so you were not using extra fuel to rechageg the system.

If you were running it as a boost system you wouldnt need anywhere near as much storage as if you were using the electric motor as the main engine.

It may not over come the weight but is an interesting thought all the same.

Still, any one else heard of the ex military one, I think it was in a museum in the UK???

procrastination inc
24th May 2009, 08:33 PM
lead acid batteries are a nice "cheap" solution, but cost in terms of weight

NiMH are the most common cost/weight choice but LiFePO4 cells are just comming of age.

check out A123systems gear and their KillaCycle drag bike KillaCycle - World’s Quickest Electric Motorcycle (http://www.killacycle.com/)

Grrrrrrrruunt

Casper
24th May 2009, 08:33 PM
Dunsfold Collection (http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/gallery/gallery2htms/elects3.htm)

Found it :BigThumb::arms:

Blknight.aus
24th May 2009, 08:50 PM
just checked it....

not the setup the inspired my initial curiosity to the concept.

isuzurover
25th May 2009, 06:21 PM
I have a somewhat different plan.

Remove gearbox and engine.
Fit a large electric motor to the TC - with ratios capable of a top speed of 90-110ish.

Rather than batteries, a couple of VERY large capacitors (or possible batteries instead), and a small, efficient diesel generator mounted somewhere.

So you have a vehicle capable of the same speed, acceleration and range as the original. But with Max torque from stationary.

Overall fuel consumption should be reduced, as no idling, smaller, more efficient diesel, etc etc...

procrastination inc
25th May 2009, 11:15 PM
google super capacitors

JDNSW
26th May 2009, 10:39 AM
I have a somewhat different plan.

Remove gearbox and engine.
Fit a large electric motor to the TC - with ratios capable of a top speed of 90-110ish.

Rather than batteries, a couple of VERY large capacitors (or possible batteries instead), and a small, efficient diesel generator mounted somewhere.

So you have a vehicle capable of the same speed, acceleration and range as the original. But with Max torque from stationary.

Overall fuel consumption should be reduced, as no idling, smaller, more efficient diesel, etc etc...

I think that is along the right lines. Advantage of supercapacitors is that they allow regenerative braking to be effective.

The whole problem though with this sort of setup, is that you have, in the generator to motor effectively an automatic transmission. With losses of probably 15-25%. This makes an automatic look efficient! To finish up ahead, you have save that 15-25% in increased efficiency of the small diesel and no idling before you start making any gains. I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are good reasons why diesel-electric transmissions have only caught on in general in railway locomotives where the advantages of a simple drive to all wheels and stepless drive outweighs the loss in efficiency.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I suspect the advantages will be pretty illusory by the time you take into account the losses and the extra weight of generator, electric motor and batteries/capacitors. This is one of the reasons this sort of setup often has motors in the hubs - by scrapping the whole drive train you can get ahead of the game. But I am not sure that is a good idea in an offroad vehicle.

John

Blknight.aus
26th May 2009, 05:56 PM
my back of the napkin maths had me believing that keeping the gearbox allowed you to use a significantly smaller motor with a smaller generation plant that operated at about peak fuel economy using the batteries as a capacitor setup you could come away with good economy when you had to run the charging plant and providing you kept your runs to within battery range almost no cost if you charged up on off peak power.

JDNSW
29th May 2009, 10:02 AM
Dave, and others interested in this subject, you might find the article in the June 2009 Silicon Chip magazine of interest. In particular they discuss the type of motor to be used etc. This was for a pure electric car, but a lot of the information would apply to a hybrid.

John

procrastination inc
29th May 2009, 04:00 PM
maybe wait until these things are available s/h with dead batteries
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/106.jpg
http://www.vectrix.com/

20hp brushless motor and controller with integrated regenative braking system.

I'm sure you could work out a simple mod to kick the regen system in when the charge is low and you'd have a pretty much off the shelf system to hybrid your landy :)

Casper
29th May 2009, 04:28 PM
maybe wait until these things are available s/h with dead batteries
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/106.jpg
Vectrix AU :: Homepage: Vectrix 100% Personal Electric Vehicle, Electric Scooter, Zero Emissions::Vectrix.com (http://www.vectrix.com/)

20hp brushless motor and controller with integrated regenative braking system.

I'm sure you could work out a simple mod to kick the regen system in when the charge is low and you'd have a pretty much off the shelf system to hybrid your landy :)

I like your thinking.

That and a few Lithium Ion batteries (for shunting traffic type work) and a super capacitor to take advantage of the re-gen braking and it would be a pretty good KERS type system, imagine when over taking up hill how well 20hp extra would go down :D:D:D

I recon that I could probably get out of it for $10k or close to it...:eek:

Still, would be a nice gimmick

F4Phantom
29th May 2009, 07:46 PM
this is an awesome discussion. I had a go on a vextrix not long ago, it is aweosme and has regen braking if you rotate the throttle backwards past neutral. I also built a couple of fast electric bikes, 0-100 around 3 secs. Range roughly 10km. Could not beat it on the track due to max torque at 0 rpm out of the corners.

Anyway this has got me thinking, I have a few ideas too but the PTO never entered my mind.

One idea is you get an awd car like an L series subaru, put a FWD box in it and motor through the floor to the rear diff. Then you have hybrid. BTW range is almost never a problem. I used to ride my elec bike on the street and never had a range problem for local area stuff. Sometimes local k's makes up a lot of your weekly k's. Also whenever you get to work/home you can recharge it, even a short time charging makes a big difference.

You dont need to mount wheel motors, you can mount a motor directly into a diff. Also an auto tranny makes no sense because of inefficiency and also I think you may need to keep it spinning to keep the hydro pressure up. You just mount a motor directly into a manual box, keep the clutch and ratios, the space you save from no motor and all that allows you to have a 30km range which means you can get a cheap manual LR with a clapped out engine, put cheap lead acids in it and a short range and have very cheap local area motoring. A proper car electric motor new is around 1k.

Add to this you never need to fill up, no oil changes, maybe regen braking for less brake pad wear, and first thing on a cold morning just flogg the hell out of it from the drive way. It makes a lot of sense.

What I REALLY want to know is can a stock R380 box and L322 transfer case accept a drive input anywhere without a PTO?

F4Phantom
29th May 2009, 07:55 PM
this is an awesome discussion. I had a go on a vextrix not long ago, it is aweosme and has regen braking if you rotate the throttle backwards past neutral. I also built a couple of fast electric bikes, 0-100 around 3 secs. Range roughly 10km. Could not beat it on the track due to max torque at 0 rpm out of the corners.

Anyway this has got me thinking, I have a few ideas too but the PTO never entered my mind.

One idea is you get an awd car like an L series subaru, put a FWD box in it and motor through the floor to the rear diff. Then you have hybrid. BTW range is almost never a problem. I used to ride my elec bike on the street and never had a range problem for local area stuff. Sometimes local k's makes up a lot of your weekly k's. Also whenever you get to work/home you can recharge it, even a short time charging makes a big difference.

You dont need to mount wheel motors, you can mount a motor directly into a diff. Also an auto tranny makes no sense because of inefficiency and also I think you may need to keep it spinning to keep the hydro pressure up. You just mount a motor directly into a manual box, keep the clutch and ratios, the space you save from no motor and all that allows you to have a 30km range which means you can get a cheap manual LR with a clapped out engine, put cheap lead acids in it and a short range and have very cheap local area motoring. A proper car electric motor new is around 1k.

Add to this you never need to fill up, no oil changes, maybe regen braking for less brake pad wear, and first thing on a cold morning just flogg the hell out of it from the drive way. It makes a lot of sense.

What I REALLY want to know is can a stock R380 box and L322 transfer case accept a drive input anywhere without a PTO?

F4Phantom
29th May 2009, 08:06 PM
this is an awesome discussion. I had a go on a vextrix not long ago, it is aweosme and has regen braking if you rotate the throttle backwards past neutral. I also built a couple of fast electric bikes, 0-100 around 3 secs. Range roughly 10km. Could not beat it on the track due to max torque at 0 rpm out of the corners.

Anyway this has got me thinking, I have a few ideas too but the PTO never entered my mind.

One idea is you get an awd car like an L series subaru, put a FWD box in it and motor through the floor to the rear diff. Then you have hybrid. BTW range is almost never a problem. I used to ride my elec bike on the street and never had a range problem for local area stuff. Sometimes local k's makes up a lot of your weekly k's. Also whenever you get to work/home you can recharge it, even a short time charging makes a big difference.

You dont need to mount wheel motors, you can mount a motor directly into a diff. Also an auto tranny makes no sense because of inefficiency and also I think you may need to keep it spinning to keep the hydro pressure up. You just mount a motor directly into a manual box, keep the clutch and ratios, the space you save from no motor and all that allows you to have a 30km range which means you can get a cheap manual LR with a clapped out engine, put cheap lead acids in it and a short range and have very cheap local area motoring. A proper car electric motor new is around 1k.

Add to this you never need to fill up, no oil changes, maybe regen braking for less brake pad wear, and first thing on a cold morning just flogg the hell out of it from the drive way. It makes a lot of sense.

What I REALLY want to know is can a stock R380 box and L322 transfer case accept a drive input anywhere without a PTO?

Olfella
31st May 2009, 06:26 PM
Casper,
Just got June Silicon Chip magazine yesterday. Has an article about elec conversion done on a hilux ute using a 3phase 415 volt motor and variable speed drive. 600 volt sealed lead acid batts 20 amp hour gives him about 40KM max between charges. Might be worth a look at the article.
Regards,
Chris

clean32
31st May 2009, 08:09 PM
the trend is towards AC motors. any way the problem is the controlers.

JDNSW
1st June 2009, 05:19 AM
Casper,
Just got June Silicon Chip magazine yesterday. Has an article about elec conversion done on a hilux ute using a 3phase 415 volt motor and variable speed drive. 600 volt sealed lead acid batts 20 amp hour gives him about 40KM max between charges. Might be worth a look at the article.
Regards,
Chris

See my post eight back!

John

BigTim
1st June 2009, 11:06 AM
I strongly recommend you check out Australian Electric Vehicle Association forums here The Australian Electric Vehicle Asn - Powered by Web Wiz Forums (http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/) for detailed discussions on the subject of converting ICE vehicles to electric and/or hybrid. Similar sort of community spirit to the one here on AULRO.

You can find the answers to pretty much all of your questions on this subject there from other converters who have actually done it.

Some folks have complete conversion diaries online there and there are spreadsheets etc available to assist in design.

Casper
3rd June 2009, 07:01 PM
That looks to be a very interesting forum.

I had a quick look and will give it a much better look one day when I have the time :D

Rovy
4th August 2009, 05:36 PM
I strongly recommend you check out Australian Electric Vehicle Association forums here The Australian Electric Vehicle Asn - Powered by Web Wiz Forums (http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/) for detailed discussions on the subject of converting ICE vehicles to electric and/or hybrid. Similar sort of community spirit to the one here on AULRO.

You can find the answers to pretty much all of your questions on this subject there from other converters who have actually done it.

Some folks have complete conversion diaries online there and there are spreadsheets etc available to assist in design.

Beat me to the punch. There is a little Suzuki 4x4 that has been converted to A/C drive. Very profession job indeed.
But the cost is through the roof. I am trying to convert an Aprilia RS125, but have been trying for 4yrs now. To get the motor controller etc would cost US$4k, plus batteries on top of that another $5k.
Still want one.

Blknight.aus
4th August 2009, 05:49 PM
no, no landrover transmission can take an external power input (as stock) without using the PTO on the tcase.

Newbs-IIA
5th August 2009, 09:54 PM
You what would be way cooler than a button under the accelerator pedal...

A big red button on the shifter just like Mad Max :D

I enjoy driving my landrover because it's slow... and anyway - who overtakes in a Series Landy??? :o The only person I have ever overtaken on the highway was a huge mobile crane :D

Why muck around with recharging batteries at home when Hydrogen cells are on the verge of becoming commercially available for cars?

rockley12
20th September 2009, 06:48 PM
if you had 4 x 20 hp motors - one on each corner - would that mean an 80 hp series land rover? and all that torque from zero RPM.

sounds like you might be able to pass something on the highway with that...wait until the electric vespa thing is available second hand and give it a go...

procrastination inc
20th September 2009, 07:50 PM
"wait until the electric vespa thing is available second hand and give it a go..."

They are on the market now, just bought one :D

not going to butcher it though. I'm in hippy heaven right now :)

blitz
24th September 2009, 01:29 PM
A couple of points here

the higher the voltage the lower the current that is why most hybrid cars run a voltage of around 400V, so that the cables aren't as thick as your arm.

A/C motors require tricky controllers to change the speed (read expensive)

A DC motor is easier to control the speed but there are more moving parts i.e. brushes, so it wears out faster.

If I had the money - 3 phase 400V 20 hp water proof motor on each corner powered by a diesel running an altenator, controlled by a Variable Frequency Drive and standard wheel spin detectors

clean32
24th September 2009, 05:54 PM
A couple of points here

If I had the money - 3 phase 400V 20 hp water proof motor on each corner powered by a diesel running an altenator, controlled by a Variable Frequency Drive and standard wheel spin detectors

that will set you back about 30K

Hebe
30th September 2009, 08:40 AM
Wow, very interesting in deed.

I've got a 88", 1958, series I with an original 2.0 petrol engine. I'm rather a perfectionist and wouldn't want to replace the engine in an original and historical vehicle like mine.

On the other hand I do feel a little adversion with respect to its consumption and oil based fuels in general. Both as a bit of an environmental aware hippie.... and looking at my wallet.

Would it be possible, for this car or for a LWB series II, to just take out the engine and replace it with a second hand hybrid engine of say a Toyota Prius? (Maybe of a crashed car)

Would you then needed to do the same with the transmission?

How flexible are Hybrid engines in fitting it into other models?

Or would you need to change the whole drivetrain etc.? (in which case you might as well take the body of a Series and place it on top of the base of a Prius)

Just some thoughts and questions....

Casper
14th October 2009, 03:15 PM
Wow, very interesting in deed.

I've got a 88", 1958, series I with an original 2.0 petrol engine. I'm rather a perfectionist and wouldn't want to replace the engine in an original and historical vehicle like mine.

On the other hand I do feel a little adversion with respect to its consumption and oil based fuels in general. Both as a bit of an environmental aware hippie.... and looking at my wallet.

Would it be possible, for this car or for a LWB series II, to just take out the engine and replace it with a second hand hybrid engine of say a Toyota Prius? (Maybe of a crashed car)

Would you then needed to do the same with the transmission?

How flexible are Hybrid engines in fitting it into other models?

Or would you need to change the whole drivetrain etc.? (in which case you might as well take the body of a Series and place it on top of the base of a Prius)

Just some thoughts and questions....

I'm not a massive fan of the Prius in theory and I wasn't all that impressed in practice either when I got to drive one as my wife's Corolla gets better economy on the same run to work over a week.

The main problem with the Prius is that it seems to be one or the other Hybrid (I like to call it) as in it is either electric or petrol powered even though the electric motor will run to give it overtaking boost.

With an all electric car, your not carrying a petrol/diesel (ICE) engine, don't need a gearbox and you can distribute the weight around the car so it rides nice and balanced.

With a ICE car you have the engine, gearbox, fuel etc but no batteries.

With the Prius, when it is powered by electric it is also dragging the petrol engine and when on petrol it's dragging the batteries and a heavy electric motor so it's robbing peter to pay Paul so to speak, and on top of that, you need to run the engine to charge the cell which again is burning fuel.

The controller from the prius is very complicated from what I have seen but I haven't read much on them so I don't know much there.

There are a couple of other negatives with the prius as far as being fairly non environmentally friendly.

1. The batteries will still be here when man is extinct
2. They use on average as much or more fuel than a comparable sized ICE car.

There are plenty of good systems out there but none are really cheap but most commercial motors are easier to adapt for this sort of thing than purpose built stuff normally.

Forklifts and Golf carts run electric controllers and even some electric ride on mowers do as well so if you buy a second hand one with dead batteries then you will get a controller and charger rather cheap.

Trojan lead acid batteries for a golf cart (48v 30ah cell) costs about $2500 and if used properly will last about 3 to 5 years and in the industry are costed in as fuel as they use about $1.50 of electricity off peak to charge.

There are a hell of a lot more brushless motor coming out on all sorts of things and LiFepo4 cells (which are much easier to recycle than standard Lithium batteries) are getting cheaper and more accessible from China so hopefully so we will see more commercially available options coming into the Aussie market at a reasonable price.

procrastination inc
29th October 2009, 06:37 PM
Yep, bugger hybrids. electric only is the way to go.

My vectrix is pretty good. adequate performance, limited range, but an excellent inner city commuter.

there is more and better in the pipe line

i am in love:
TESLA - Model S (http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php)

isuzurover
4th November 2009, 04:53 PM
Wow, very interesting in deed.

I've got a 88", 1958, series I with an original 2.0 petrol engine. I'm rather a perfectionist and wouldn't want to replace the engine in an original and historical vehicle like mine.

On the other hand I do feel a little adversion with respect to its consumption and oil based fuels in general. Both as a bit of an environmental aware hippie.... and looking at my wallet.

Would it be possible, for this car or for a LWB series II, to just take out the engine and replace it with a second hand hybrid engine of say a Toyota Prius? (Maybe of a crashed car)

Would you then needed to do the same with the transmission?

How flexible are Hybrid engines in fitting it into other models?

Or would you need to change the whole drivetrain etc.? (in which case you might as well take the body of a Series and place it on top of the base of a Prius)

Just some thoughts and questions....

The biggest problem is the Prius is front wheel drive and the 2 engines and the transmission are very well integrated AFAIK.

So you would need to work out how to turn the ICE and electric engines in the Prius from transverse - longitudinal. You would also need to use the prius computer - which managed the batteries and optimises the overall efficiency of the system...

The prius is great under stop-start conditions (i.e. city driving), but outside of that is the same or worse than other equivalent size vehicles. IMHO, a better option would be to use something like a freelander diesel (best option would be the new TD4e diesel - with the stop-start feature).

wagoo
3rd January 2011, 11:09 AM
You what would be way cooler than a button under the accelerator pedal...

A big red button on the shifter just like Mad Max :D

I enjoy driving my landrover because it's slow... and anyway - who overtakes in a Series Landy??? :o The only person I have ever overtaken on the highway was a huge mobile crane :D


Yes the point is moot for us series drivers because literally everything on the road including fully loaded B doubles are faster, so even with the technology discussed here to overtake,say going up along gradient, you would have to keep it all switched on to prevent the overtaken rig from rounding you up again once the hill flattens out.

And why would the military need an electric LandRover for stealth reasons?
Is that so they can sneak up behind enemy lines to nick their Toyotas?:)
Wagoo.

Dougal
28th February 2011, 04:01 PM
I have a somewhat different plan.

Remove gearbox and engine.
Fit a large electric motor to the TC - with ratios capable of a top speed of 90-110ish.

Rather than batteries, a couple of VERY large capacitors (or possible batteries instead), and a small, efficient diesel generator mounted somewhere.

So you have a vehicle capable of the same speed, acceleration and range as the original. But with Max torque from stationary.

Overall fuel consumption should be reduced, as no idling, smaller, more efficient diesel, etc etc...

I'm thinking you'd want a tdi just under 2 litres to get adequate power for constant power running (i.e. top speed). A vw 1.9 tdi would do the job nicely, it's the most efficient diesel of it's size too.

djam1
28th February 2011, 09:32 PM
You guys seen this

YouTube - LR Challenge part 1