Defender Puma vs Toyota 70 Video Review

[spudboy]

Quite an interesting comparo between the two, in which the presenter ultimately plumps for the Toyo (he owns the Toyo in the review).

Filmed in Sth Africa, about 20 mins for both vids.

YouTube - Land Rover 110 vs Toyota Land Cruiser 70-SW Pt1.

YouTube - Land Rover 110 vs Toyota Land Cruiser 70-SW Pt2.

[B92 8NW]

Is that the comparo where the South African dude drives the Defender down the hill and in a true Matt Preston-esque fashion, just says "That was appalling. Truly appalling.":D:D?

[spudboy]

Yes - that's the one. Haven't seen it before so I thought it was new, but obviously not.

Sorry if it an old one.
David

[waz]

Once again, an optioned-up cruiser vs non-optioned LR.

W

[Redback]

Also It is a 4.2TD not the 4.5 TDV8 76 series Cruiser that we know:)

Baz.

[seano87]

Also It is a 4.2TD not the 4.5 TDV8 76 series Cruiser that we know:)

Baz.

Its not even the 4.2TD, he said its only the NA!

I think his final comments sort of sum it all up though, off-road he basically admits the Defender is better, and the Toyota needs the lockers to match it, but on-road the Toyota wins, and he'd have the Toyota...

Who goes out and compares these two and is really that concerned about performance and behavior on-road? I would buy a Defender for its off-road prowess, if I was that concerned about comfort, I'd buy a freelander :p

Seano

[hiline]

Once again, an optioned-up cruiser vs non-optioned LR.

W

funny how its always that way :mad:

[solmanic]

Looking at that footage, I don't think the Defender's downhill performance had anything to do with the anti-stall idle-jack. It looked as though the low-low gearing was just so low that the wheels simply locked up and the lurching was traction control trying to kick in.

The Cruiser on the other hand went down faster so, without any wheel lockup, looked a lot smoother.

[B92 8NW]

I didn't think it was an overly optioned up Land Cruiser, the whole video was actually quite balanced.

There isn't a seating option in the Land Cruiser whereby you can't see out the windows, and having elbow room isn't something reserved for the top model. The barn doors aren't even an option. It's purely factual that the two barn doors provide better loadspace access than the single defender door, nothing to do with options.

The dude even goes so far as to say that the Land Cruiser needs to use its axle differential locks to keep up with the Defender. Also mentions that over the eight cars he has owned, the Defender was the one he enjoyed the most.

[B92 8NW]

Looking at that footage, I don't think the Defender's downhill performance had anything to do with the anti-stall idle-jack. It looked as though the low-low gearing was just so low that the wheels simply locked up and the lurching was traction control trying to kick in.

The Cruiser on the other hand went down faster so, without any wheel lockup, looked a lot smoother.

I'm agreeing here too. You'd think that in travelling down hill, there'd be hardly any risk of the engine stalling.

[camel_landy]

Looking at that footage, I don't think the Defender's downhill performance had anything to do with the anti-stall idle-jack. It looked as though the low-low gearing was just so low that the wheels simply locked up and the lurching was traction control trying to kick in.

The Cruiser on the other hand went down faster so, without any wheel lockup, looked a lot smoother.

Yep, I'd agree with that. 2nd low might have given a similar ride to the Cruiser.

M

[ozscott]

Interesting comparo.

Africa is the last great bastion of the LR...all it takes is viewing most Wild Cat Diary and similar programs to see that out in the wilds of Africa stalking the big game LRs are still well and truly the most preferred vehicle...makes that Toyo add where the bloke is bitten by a black snake in the outback and only the Toyo can get him to town to get treatment look funny...I mean seriously if reliability was really an issue compared to the Toyo they simply wouldnt risk being out amongst big cats and rhinos and hippos etc in an LR...


Cheers

[waz]

I believe that if it needs optional equipment to do the same test, then I would consider it "optioned-up".

It's Toyota's marketing department that deserve any accolades, not the engineering department. They have convinced people that they need to spend $10,000 more on a vehicle - but then an EXTRA $3,000 if they want it to be capable. Same with not including KDSS on the 200 Series GXL TDV8.

Just my $0.02.

W

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Once again, an optioned-up cruiser vs non-optioned LR.

W



thats fine.......

it makes the test more even........

[Diff]

Do they say 'I can see the road through the door seals', or
'its a great car unless you want to talk , like breathing fresh air or staying dry' on the defender?
Love how defender drivers believe these things are standard features on a car that has been evolving for 60 years:wasntme:

[Scallops]

Love how defender drivers believe these things are standard features on a car that has been evolving for 60 years:wasntme:

Well they are - are you crazy, or something? :p :D

[PAT303]

Do they say 'I can see the road through the door seals', or
'its a great car unless you want to talk , like breathing fresh air or staying dry' on the defender?
Love how defender drivers believe these things are standard features on a car that has been evolving for 60 years:wasntme:
I don't know what type of defender you drive but mine hasn't read that book. Pat

[zuno555]

I have only been 4x4ing for a couple of years but want to clarify a point made earlier in this post.

How, how how can wheels lock up, going down hill, no matter what gear you are in, UNLESS you touch the brakes?????????

IF traction control does this or anti stall or whatever then its a serious safety flaw. Does HDC go to a point of locking up brakes? (In Discos etc) How does that go on muddy descents? I think I would like to stick to basic 4WD's with good ol diff locks and driver input only.

Engine speed should just increase to the point its revving its tits off, until driver feathers the brakes to keep RPM under control, regardless of what gear you are in.

From watching the vid, the downhill section seemed fair to me, he didn't touch the brakes, and the pumas performance *was* quote "Quite horrible". Imagine if that was a looooooong rough descent in the high country? Did he do something wrong on the descent that I didn't see? Contrary to what people have said they do both go over the top of the descent at the same speed, then its basically feet away from pedals and steer, the car should do the rest.

I thought the vid was fair overall, some good points raised (ergonomics), considering he owned the troopy. He did try the hill in the troopy with open diffs, rear locker, then twin locked. Its not as if he tried to hide the fact that he needed lockers to keep up with the open diff traction controlled puma.

In any case the defender/pumas are just soooo good looking, one day..........

[dullbird]

I think it has something to do with the seriouly low gearing and the momentum created by gravity....

I'm sur this was discussed once...but I believe Land Rover had to do something to the car because it crawled too slow and was causing the car to loss traction and slide something like that

[B92 8NW]

How, how how can wheels lock up, going down hill, no matter what gear you are in, UNLESS you touch the brakes?????????

IF traction control does this or anti stall or whatever then its a serious safety flaw. Does HDC go to a point of locking up brakes? (In Discos etc) How does that go on muddy descents? I think I would like to stick to basic 4WD's with good ol diff locks and driver input only.

Engine speed should just increase to the point its revving its tits off, until driver feathers the brakes to keep RPM under control, regardless of what gear you are in.


Very easy to compression lock the wheels going down hill, particularly if the ratio chosen is too low and the ground is slippery.

You only need to select low 1st on a Tdi, jack it up and see how much force is required to turn that wheel against the compression of the engine.

[B92 8NW]

Nice definition I found: "Compression lock up occurs when the engine exerts a braking force on the drive wheels greater than the amount of traction available"

[zuno555]

Ok cheers guys (and gals) :)

I know about compression lockup, but I have never come across it in my 4x4ing or seen it going down hill. Mates diesel 60 series has seriously low 1st gear, snail crawls down *very* steep hills, and its never locked up going down (without brakes once again), including muddy hills.

Regardless, the hill in the video was definitely NOT muddy or slippery. It had a few holes which they were deliberately going through to cross up the axles. It was still "terrible" how it jerked / lunged / slid down. Lucky the hill was as short as it was or it would have got really exciting haha.

How do "real" puma owners in aus find their cars behaving going down very steep hills? Nothing like this video I am sure - but I can not see how he did anything wrong, unless he deliberately did something or maybe had it in 3rd instead of 1st? Wombat holes or lifting wheels going down hill should still not affect car like it did in video.

[F4Phantom]

very balanced and high quality review. This guy actually discusses things important to an owner. I am sick to the gut of the age drive reviews where the most important factor is standard cruise control, rear seating room complaints in 911's and fuel tank size sports cars. Small cars are small and dont require leg room for large adults, big cars are big and dont need to handle like minis and 4x4's dont handle like cars along with off road ability (except porsches'). This south african guy is good value.

[F150driver]

Look, neither of these vehicles is any good on-road. They both suck for ride comfort, performance and handling. They are all about one thing, and one thing only. Off-road ability, and clearly the Defender is the winner. The rest of his criteria were about as relevant as aerodynamics.

I do agree with F4Phantom on the guy presenting a fairly balanced review.

[grabber4k]

I had the misfortune to drive a 'Toy 70' for some 600ks the other day in Central Queensland on dirt and back roads. Can't wait to get back to Sydney to drive my Puma. What a poor set up of a car. The V8 has no power, handling is rough and indecisive on tar. As it shakes and shimmies at low and high speed. Fuel consumption is too high for me, glad the company was paying for it. A bit low geared, could do with 6 gears, then might get a chance to get the engine to pull. Feels like a 200TDI engine!

[BMKal]

I had the misfortune to drive a 'Toy 70' for some 600ks the other day in Central Queensland on dirt and back roads. Can't wait to get back to Sydney to drive my Puma. What a poor set up of a car. The V8 has no power, handling is rough and indecisive on tar. As it shakes and shimmies at low and high speed. Fuel consumption is too high for me, glad the company was paying for it. A bit low geared, could do with 6 gears, then might get a chance to get the engine to pull. Feels like a 200TDI engine!

I was driving one of Rio Tinto's brand new 70 utes up north a little while back (they're pretty heavily optioned up to Rio standards).

The first thing that really surprised me was the large paddock that you needed to turn the bloody thing round. And they used to say that Landrovers were bad for turning circle ........... :o

Other than that, have to agree with your comments about the gutless V8 and the handling on the highway. My son has a 79 series Turbo diesel 6 with over a tonne of toolboxes etc permanently on the back - will keep up with the newer V8's without problem, and actually blows them away on a long hill.

The little TD5 in the Disco craps on either of them though......... :D

[rick130]

We all have to remember that the TDV8 is significantly detuned in the 79 Series so that it doesn't scatter small bits of gearbox and t/case all over this wide brown green land.

It has a huge scope for more performance, just be careful with the rest of the driveline if you do.

[Didge]

BMKal, do you know where I can get an "infidel inside" sticker for my truck? I love it!!!!

[BMKal]

BMKal, do you know where I can get an "infidel inside" sticker for my truck? I love it!!!!

Haven't seen it as a sticker. I can send you in jpeg format or similar and you can see if your local signwriter can make a sticker from it if you like.

[Brucet]

Take a look at this link....
Defender2 - View topic - ANTISTALL FEATURE (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic667.html)

This could answer your questions.

Regarding the video and the guy presenting it......in South Africa to the beginner he is taken seriously and offers allot of good beginner advice....to the more experienced he is mostly not respected and considered biased for various reasons. He is also known as a big Toyota supporter.....so you would probably find that he is sponsored by Toyota.

Have you guys down there heard of Kingsley Holgate, his wife and his son Ross? In their bigger trips, these guys/family have travelled around the world following the line of capricorn and obviously been through Aus on that trip. I recall them talking about the Simpson desert in the outback etc....they have also travelled all around Africa in an expedition called the Outside Edge where they basically travelled on the edge of Africa etc etc.....They did all these trips in Land Rovers. Not because they got sponsored vehicles (Toyota and Nissan tried to offer sponsorships also) but because they believe in the toughness etc of the LR.

[spudboy]

Yeah - have heard of Kingsley. Big white beard? Seem to recall he specialises in charity runs, like delivering 1,000 mosquito nets to remote villages and stuff like that.

[Bushie]

Nice definition I found: "Compression lock up occurs when the engine exerts a braking force on the drive wheels greater than the amount of traction available"

And it can be a fairly scary occurrence in a truck, heading down a steep hill with a loose surface. Sometimes all you need to do is lift the foot off for it to occur.

Much more likely to happen in a lightly laden vehicle at the rear wheels


Martyn

[Ace]

Another typical test, done by another typical tester. "The defender is better, but for no reason at all I choose the land cruiser, no other reason than just because I want to".

[one_iota]

I had this experience in the Disco descending those steep bits of the Deua Mericumbene trail in the wet....learned about using the accelerator rather than the brake :eek:

[B92 8NW]

I've recently returned from driving Melb to Cairns. I was surprised to see so many new VDJ79R Cruisers parked on people's front lawns with crappy hand painted "4 sale" signs (surely there are better channels through which to sell a $70k car?). I assume either people have bought them and realised they can't afford them, or they aren't as good as the HZJ/HDJ that they probably upgraded from and want to go back to an older one.

Still having said all that, all I saw throughout inland NSW/QLD was 70s. Two D1s and three fenders by contrast.

Also I want to know how QLDers can make their aspirated 75 do 140kmh. Perhaps the distinct lack of hills gives a false sense of how "powerful" they are...

[BigJon]

Also I want to know how QLDers can make their aspirated 75 do 140kmh.

If they have the 1HZ they should do it easily, provided they are in tune. A mate of mine used to have one that would do 160 on the flat.

[Ace]

I had this experience in the Disco descending those steep bits of the Deua Mericumbene trail in the wet....learned about using the accelerator rather than the brake :eek:

I remember another hill like that to Mahn, but we tabogoned down that one :D

[Didge]

Haven't seen it as a sticker. I can send you in jpeg format or similar and you can see if your local signwriter can make a sticker from it if you like.
Please do, if I can get em printed I'll send you one. please send to gerald.duncan@tafensw.edu.au. Don't worry about the privacy bit with the email folks (I expect someone will say I shouldn' put my email up here but hey, so what?)

cheers Gerald

[isuzutoo-eh]

Didge,
Here:
Helicopter Decals Page 2 (http://signsations.biz/Helicopter-Decals-Page-2.html)
or just for a jpeg:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LNhJJWWBTdo/SoVDEjHPyvI/AAAAAAAAGqw/aB4AkHV1bUo/s320/infidel_inside.jpg

:D

[Redback]

Another typical test, done by another typical tester. "The defender is better, but for no reason at all I choose the land cruiser, no other reason than just because I want to".

So Matt, if the test said the Cruiser was better would you buy the Cruiser??

Baz.

[Celtoid]

And it can be a fairly scary occurrence in a truck, heading down a steep hill with a loose surface. Sometimes all you need to do is lift the foot off for it to occur.

Much more likely to happen in a lightly laden vehicle at the rear wheels


Martyn

My D4 with HDC on a very steep gravel hill locked it's wheels up quite a lot. Not all at once, I think the system takes a second to realise that the car is slipping.

Once I was used to it, it was fine but a little disconcerting the first time it did it......my head was constantly doing the maths....very steep hill, ball-bearing gravel, 3 tons....STAY OFF THE BRAKES...LOL!!!!!

[Didge]

Didge,
Here:
Helicopter Decals Page 2 (http://signsations.biz/Helicopter-Decals-Page-2.html)
or just for a jpeg:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LNhJJWWBTdo/SoVDEjHPyvI/AAAAAAAAGqw/aB4AkHV1bUo/s320/infidel_inside.jpg

:D
Thanks Mark, I'll see what I can do
cheers Gerald

[waz]

So Matt, if the test said the Cruiser was better would you buy the Cruiser??

Baz.

Let's stick with at least some semblance of reality. This would never happen.

Waz

[Didge]

hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!