Air France Incident!!!

[juddy]

Very bad news, as always with plane crashes, but a very strange one.....

Something really bad must have gone wrong.

[V8Ian]

It has been suggested that the plane may have been hit by lightning, how does this happen? Lightning being static electricity, wants to find the path of least resistance to ground, a plane mid flight is not earthed. Is it that the metal offers lower resistance than air/water? Do planes have lightning arrestors?

[crash]

What amazes me is how the plane crash investigtors can pin point the cause of an accident.

[Hoges]

Planes are at a different "potential" so can attract lightening. Lightening strikes not uncommon...there are usually special conductors on the trailing edge of the wing, rudder and (rear) elevators to mitigate its effects. A decent strike however with perhaps a million volts on what is a massive conductor can cause havoc to the multitude of ECUs, activators etc (think effects of voltage spikes from electric welding the chassis of a P38/D3 etc without taking precautions...) that's why they try to fly above the weather...or go around it... 5 hrs into a flight one would have thought they were at about 35-40,000 feet...must have been a hell of a storm..I've witnessed a 50' eucalypt shredded by a decent lightening bolt...my ears were ringing for a couple of days after...can you image it hammering an aluminium can just a few mm thick!

[V8Ian]

What amazes me is how the plane crash investigtors can pin point the cause of an accident.
In their opinion, with no survivours to refute the guesswork.

[JDNSW]

Lightning strikes on aircraft are quite common, and almost always harmless to metal aircraft. Because there is no way the aircraft while airborne can have different parts of it at significantly different potentials, the current flow is quite low. The high frequency nature of the discharge means almost all the current remains on the outside of the aircraft. The A330, because of its "fly by wire" control was extensively tested in lightning, and it is worth noting that since it has been in service for about ten years, there would have been numerous lightning strikes on it. This is the first hull loss of any A330 in service (one crashed during testing, supposedly due to pilot error).

For what it is worth, my guess is that it flew into very severe turbulence in the intertropical convergence zone, and suffered structural failure, and midair breakup when loading on the wings or control surfaces greatly exceeded design loads. This is consistent with the report of it sending automatic system error messages.

If the flight data recorders can be found (and they have sonar transponders to help find them in water) the data would probably tell exactly what happened. The problem is that it was out of radar range, and may have deviated from its planned course to avoid storm sells, possibly by hundreds of kilometres.

John

[isuzurover]

It has been suggested that the plane may have been hit by lightning, how does this happen? Lightning being static electricity, wants to find the path of least resistance to ground, a plane mid flight is not earthed. Is it that the metal offers lower resistance than air/water? Do planes have lightning arrestors?

I was on a flight from Perth - Brisbane that was struck by lightning. As JD said, it is quite common, and usually no big deal.

We were reducing altitude in preparation for our approach to brisbane airport when it happened, I think we were coming down through a thunderstorm. There was a slight flash outside coinciding with an EXTREMELY loud bang, and the cabin filled with an ozone-smell. Surprisingly, most of the passengers remained quite calm. The pilots and stewards didn't make any announcements, but we all realised what had happened.
After we had landed and were taxiing in, the pilot said "In case you were wondering, we WERE struck by lightning back there. Sorry we didn't make an announcement at the time, but were were quite busy in the cockpit" (I'm sure they were checking all the systems were still operational!!!). I have been told that planes must be grounded for mandatory checks after lightning strikes..

[geckos]

what ever happen it would have been terrible for those people aNd now the people they left behind. My thoughts and condolences are with them.
geck

[Lionel]

For what it is worth, my guess is that it flew into very severe turbulence in the intertropical convergence zone, and suffered structural failure, and midair breakup when loading on the wings or control surfaces greatly exceeded design loads. This is consistent with the report of it sending automatic system error messages.


Yes, it seems more likely that turbulence has caused structural failure of the aircraft. Wind shear is a well known cause of catastrophic damage to aircraft.

We all feel for the people killed, and the families left behind.

Cheers,

Lionel

[oldyella 76]

Have a look at the Aust. transport safety site, you will see that a Cessna conquest was struck by lightning and on a subsequent flight had an engine failure. This failure was caused by a defective bearing in the engine that was damaged by the lightning as current ran through it. They found out by testing parts of the bearing for residual magnetism. a good read.

[cjc_td5]

What amazes me is how the plane crash investigtors can pin point the cause of an accident.

I think you might find that the control staff in France know more about what happened than the flight crew. I have read that the computers in these planes have continual contact with a central control centre, monitoring the many systems on board. It was quite common for the control centre to ring the pilot on the satphone and suggest a change to throttle etc or discuss a problem that the flight deck had not yet noticed themselves.

I think that is why the news reports are saying that Air France received several fault messages before the plane disappeared from the radar.

Very sad, a hell of a way to go...:o

[p38arover]

The news reported that several families of passengers had received text messages from pax. Seems unlikely.

[V8Ian]

The news reported that several families of passengers had received text messages from pax. Seems unlikely.
I heard that too Ron, how on earth can they get coverage, mid Atlantic when I can't get it 50 k from Brisbane CBD. Sounds like a furphy.

[Bushie]

I think you might find that the control staff in France know more about what happened than the flight crew. I have read that the computers in these planes have continual contact with a central control centre, monitoring the many systems on board. It was quite common for the control centre to ring the pilot on the satphone and suggest a change to throttle etc or discuss a problem that the flight deck had not yet noticed themselves.

I think that is why the news reports are saying that Air France received several fault messages before the plane disappeared from the radar.

Very sad, a hell of a way to go...:o


Reports on the news etc have reported that Air Frances in flight monitoring (back in France) had received considerable data indicating multiple system failures. (however we know how reliable news reports can be) I think the pointers to a major catastrophic failure is that (apparently) there were no abnormal radio messages from the flight crew.

When I first heard about it (maybe 9:30ish last night) this Air France A330-200 missing - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/375937-air-france-a330-200-missing.html) site was down due to overload.


Martyn

[JDNSW]

I was passed this link, which some may find of interest.

Air France 447 - AFR447 - A detailed meteorological analysis - Satellite and weather data (http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/)

John

[Sleepy]

Seem to have found the "bits" in the last few hours. :(

Now to find the beacon/black box which could be 3000 to 7000m below :eek:

[shinz]

A lot of that was well over my head but if the comments from supposedly industry types are to be taken at face value, this guy is one clever dude. Thanks for the link.
Steve

[303gunner]

I was told this at work last night, and thought it might lighten the mood:

"The Brazilian Navy has exhausted it's search off the coast of Brazil for the Air France plane and has asked the Royal Australian Navy to look in the Southern Ocean because the Brazillians don't have a Map of Tassie."

[Mikes defender]

this is a very scary accident.. It has happened to a very well maintained airline with an excellent safety record, on a plane that has an excellent safety record. Just shows that no one is completely safe. My thoughts are with the familys of those killed. Also i feel for the pilots, hosties and engineers that would have to go back to work, knowing there is an unresolved safety issue.

Lighting strikes are common, but still deserve respect. They can leave just a scorch mark or vapourise composite structure. lighting strikes are the most common on to enter on the nose. (raydome, windscreens frames, pitot's (airspeed)). then they will travel though the plane and exit out the trailing edge. (flight controls, flaps, apu exaust, nav lights)

A lighting strike could have taken out there weather radar and lead them into worse weather. or ceased a flight control. It could be terrorist, or on board fire. There are just too many options to speculate. Altho I do belive it would have been quick as there were no distress calls. Maybe structural failure or fuel tank explosion.

Im sure airbus and airfrance would do whatever they can to recover the fuselage. They need answers.

[VladTepes]

The news reports are ridiculous and almost certainly wrong !

There hasn't been this much conjecture since the great conjecture pandemic of 9/11 !

[d@rk51d3]

I heard that too Ron, how on earth can they get coverage, mid Atlantic when I can't get it 50 k from Brisbane CBD. Sounds like a furphy.

That was my thought too, but..........

Apparently it's all relayed by the plane, via satellite.

inflight telephony . AeroMobile (http://www.aeromobile.net/aeromobile.asp)

[Narangga]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Qantas A330 had a nose dive last year - without supposedly a definitive answer on why it happened...

[abaddonxi]

Like Oceanic 815, they're all on The Island.

D'ya think that Lost has replaced The Bermuda Triangle as the place where missing planes go?

Simon

[Bushie]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Qantas A330 had a nose dive last year - without supposedly a definitive answer on why it happened...

Was listening to someone on ABC news last night apparently they know what failed on the QANTAS acft, and the ones on Air France are made by a different manufacturer (something like Grumman vs Honeywell)

Edit:
The investigation to date has identified two significant safety factors related to the pitch-down movements. Firstly, immediately prior to the autopilot disconnect, one of the air data inertial reference units (ADIRUs) started providing erroneous data (spikes) on many parameters to other aircraft systems. The other two ADIRUs continued to function correctly. Secondly, some of the spikes in angle of attack data were not filtered by the flight control computers, and the computers subsequently commanded the pitch-down movements.

http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200806143.aspx

ADIRU = Air data inertial reference unit

Martyn

[juddy]

2 days before this left, they had a bomb threat!!!

[V8Ian]

2 days before this left, they had a bomb threat!!!
If it was a bomb then it must have had a long fuse, doesn't say much for the cleaners either.:p

[JDNSW]

2 days before this left, they had a bomb threat!!!

According to latest reports, an on-board explosion is discounted because of the amount of unburnt fuel on the ocean surface. Apparently also bomb threats are quite common, and simply result in a thorough search of the plane.

The size of the wreckage field over a distance of 20km strongly suggests a midair breakup.

John

[Sleepy]

Yes , still very early. I would agree with John about the break up.

It all conjecture though until we get the black (orange?) box back.

Very strange that they didn't get radio contact out. Suggests a systems failure or sudden catastophic hull breach (similar to the United B747 that lost the forward cargo door or the TWA B747 that had the centre tank explosion in 1996).

Probably too early to dismiss terrorism (or suicide?).

Still sad though whatever the result.:(

[Blknight.aus]

after speaking with a pilot....

"At the end of the day, what they had was a series of events that lead to a plane/planet interface failure."

[VladTepes]

but the winner of the state the bleedin obvious award, goes to


Very bad news, as always with plane crashes, but a very strange one.....

Something really bad must have gone wrong.

[Sprint]

I was told this at work last night, and thought it might lighten the mood:

"The Brazilian Navy has exhausted it's search off the coast of Brazil for the Air France plane and has asked the Royal Australian Navy to look in the Southern Ocean because the Brazillians don't have a Map of Tassie."

from what i heard early this morning, they'd found the black box, and apparently it was all a misunderstanding.....

one passenger recognised a friend, cried out "Hi Jacques", the flight crew stuck thier hands in the air, and thats when it all went bad!

:angel:

[sweetpia007]

these picture are hard to believe but were taken by a passenger on board. details are below. Hard to imagine the terror of such an event.:(
"The two photos attached were apparently taken by one of the passengers in the aircraft, just after the collision and before the aircraft crashed. The photos were retrieved from the camera's memory stick. You will never get to see photos like this. In the first photo, there is a gaping hole in the fuselage through which you can see the tailplane and vertical fin of the aircraft. In the second photo, one of the passengers is being sucked out of the gaping hole."
16169
16170
"These photos were found in a digital Casio Z750, amidst the remains in Serra do Cachimbo. Although the camera was destroyed, the Memory Stick was recovered. Investigating the serial number of the camera, the owner was identified as Paulo G. Muller, an actor of a theatre for children known in the outskirts of Porto Alegre . It can be imagined that he was standing during the turbulence, he managed to take these photos, just seconds after the tail loss the aircraft plunged. So the camera was found near the cockpit. The structural stress probably ripped the engines away, diminishing the falling speed, protecting the electronic equipment but not unfortunately the victims. Paulo Muller leaves behind two daughters, Bruna and Beatriz. "

[Sleepy]

these picture are hard to believe but were taken by a passenger on board. details are below. Hard to imagine the terror of such an event.:(
"The two photos attached were apparently taken by one of the passengers in the aircraft, just after the collision and before the aircraft crashed. The photos were retrieved from the camera's memory stick. You will never get to see photos like this. In the first photo, there is a gaping hole in the fuselage through which you can see the tailplane and vertical fin of the aircraft. In the second photo, one of the passengers is being sucked out of the gaping hole."
16169
16170
"These photos were found in a digital Casio Z750, amidst the remains in Serra do Cachimbo. Although the camera was destroyed, the Memory Stick was recovered. Investigating the serial number of the camera, the owner was identified as Paulo G. Muller, an actor of a theatre for children known in the outskirts of Porto Alegre . It can be imagined that he was standing during the turbulence, he managed to take these photos, just seconds after the tail loss the aircraft plunged. So the camera was found near the cockpit. The structural stress probably ripped the engines away, diminishing the falling speed, protecting the electronic equipment but not unfortunately the victims. Paulo Muller leaves behind two daughters, Bruna and Beatriz. "



Ahh don't you just love the internet.:D:p

snopes.com: Air France Mid-Air Crash Photos (http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/brazil737.asp)

[Disco_owner]

Man ,that is really scarry :eek:, I wonder what would have been going through his mind at the time he took these pics with his camera. watch the guy in the 1st photo getting sucked out of the Plane :o.

[Sleepy]

Man ,that is really scarry :eek:, I wonder what would have been going through his mind at the time he took these pics with his camera. watch the guy in the 1st photo getting sucked out of the Plane :o.

It's a fake - from the LOST TV program.

YouTube - LOST - 1x01 - Pilot Part 1 (ABC)


In reality if that happend at altitude, i doubt you would have time to be scared, let alone point and shoot your "happy snap". ;) The drop in pressure and temperature would be catastrophic in the true sense of the word.

Not even time to put your head between your legs and kiss...........

[scarry]

Man ,that is really scarry :eek: :o.


No it aint me,but its bloody SCARY....:p;)

[Disco_owner]

It's a fake - from the LOST TV program.




In reality if that happend at altitude, i doubt you would have time to be scared, let alone point and shoot your "happy snap". ;) The drop in pressure and temperature would be catastrophic in the true sense of the word.

Not even time to put your head between your legs and kiss...........

ahem ...I Knew that ....:angel::D:p

[V8Ian]

What is the latest on Air France, has the 'black box' been located/retrieved?

[Sleepy]

ahem ...I Knew that ....:angel::D:p

Oh I see ...the TV progam was "scarry" (sic) !:angel:

[StephenF10]

Beautifully framed and exposed photos considering the circumstances. Pity the Photoshop operator forgot to put an Air France logo on the tail.

Stephen.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well... back to reality.

Firstly you can read a preliminary briefing to pilots here (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/06/af-447-air-france-briefs-pilot.html).

Also the Courier Mail is reporting that signals from the black box have been heard by French submarines. (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25678987-952,00.html) If it's true, it means we may actually find out the cause of this.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Here is a more detailed story on the black boxes (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3a2e9c7d46-6c9e-47a5-9391-0de4b4e69732).

It sounds as though they have picked up signals but they haven't been validated yet. Tick tock tick tock :(

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well they are now saying they haven't found them....


We receive signals nearly every day.... (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/06/af-447-black-box-not-found-say.html)

[harry]

5 pages of pure unadulterated ****.
if you don't know anything,
why do you type crap.
you lot should audition the the tv news presenters job, he doesn't know **** either, but is paid to hype it up.
but i did like whathisnames reference to the brazillians not having a map of tassie!!!!!!!!
ain't waxing great!!!!

[dullbird]

Say how you really feel :lol2:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

5 pages of pure unadulterated ****.
if you don't know anything,
why do you type crap.
you lot should audition the the tv news presenters job, he doesn't know **** either, but is paid to hype it up.
but i did like whathisnames reference to the brazillians not having a map of tassie!!!!!!!!
ain't waxing great!!!!

Sniff.. I thought my stuff was ok :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

From here (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3aafa8b222-2ddf-4fbe-899d-d618e099cba6)


Little Progress in AF 447 Recovery Operations (updated)

Posted by Robert Wall at 6/25/2009 1:59 PM CDT

The French military today has updated its efforts to find debris and dead bodies from Air France Flight 447, which crashed on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris on the night of May 31 to June 1.
Since June 16, no more dead bodies and hardly and further debris from the A330-200 have been recovered, the military says.

The only significant progress when it comes to the bodies is that the body belonging to the AF 447 pilot, Marc Duboi, has today been identified. Duboi had extensive experience flying the A330.

It’s not for a lack of trying. Around 470 French military personnel are involved in the search, including two helicopters, an E-3F Awacs, two Atlantique 2 and a Falcon 50 maritime surveillance aircraft, in addition to the Ventose frigage, the Mistral command ship and Emeraude attack submarine.

So far, 50 bodies have been recovered, but none in recent days, and 300 pieces of debris amounting to a volume of around 35 cubic meters – that’s actually less debris than the French accident investigation office, the BEA, said have been salvaged. The BEA put the figure at 400 pieces.

The French military confirms that since June 10, it has picked up various noises that led search teams to hope they might have picked up the signal being emitted by the cockpit voice and flight data recorders, but so far none of the signals have proved to belong to the black boxes. The pinger is emitting a signal every second at 37 kHz (+/- 1 kHz), with a signal range of about 2 km.

Next week, the 30 days t

[VladTepes]

And then suddenly, completely unexpectedly... nothing happened.

[p38arover]

And then suddenly, completely unexpectedly... nothing happened.

I dunno. Another Airbus went down yesterday in the Indian Ocean. One survivor.

[JDNSW]

I dunno. Another Airbus went down yesterday in the Indian Ocean. One survivor.

Yes, but a very different situation - Yemenia, or at least the particular Airbus had been banned from landing in France because of safety deficiencies. The aircraft crashed into the sea about fifteen kilometres from the airport while going round following a missed approach in bad weather. Apparently no problem finding the crash site, even with the weather sitll bad.

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Look... this is tasteless... but I'll leave it up to you all whether you find it funny (I did .. just a little bit... and was then disgusted.. and then amused...)

Investigators determine AF447 incident caused by air crash. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/investigators_determine_air_france?utm_source=c-section)

[juddy]

So whats the story on this one??? anything been found???? Ie, black box???

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No wreckage has been found on the bottom. Airbus has offered to pay to continue the search. (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3a3e2dca10-d945-4eb8-a536-696e4ea97bc9)

In other news, Air France has had one of their a320's loose airspeed info so Airbus are now recommended that affected aircraft have at least two BF goodrich pitots (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41d651ac&opt=0) and are considering making this advice mandatory.

[juddy]

Have the French Navy stopped looking??

[V8Ian]

Maybe the French don't want to find too much, BEA are quick to and fond of blaming the pilots.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Maybe the French don't want to find too much, BEA are quick to and fond of blaming the pilots.

Well Airbus is chipping in a substantial amount of money to keep the search going.

It would appear they very much want to find the cause. If I were them I would too as this is the type of incident that could give them a bad safety reputation. It's probably unjustified, but still. Loosing a large jet full of people is not on.

[303gunner]

Scarebus already have a bad rep and have done for years, but whether it's justified or just some pro-Boeing rednecking I'm not in a position to say.

[muddymech]

here is something to chew on, i'd say take it with a pinch of salt.

for me personally i like Boeing warey of airbus, but that may be just were my lack of experiance lies. they are different and have different logic but do have some neat ideas even if not all of them work.
ian

Subject: Air France Accident: Smoking Gun Found






A Brazilian Naval unit reportedly found the complete vertical fin/rudder assembly of the doomed aircraft floating some 30 miles from the main debris field. The search for the flight recorders goes on, but given the failure history of the vertical fins on A300-series aircraft, an analysis of its structure at the point of failure will likely yield the primary cause factor in the breakup of the aircraft, with the flight recorder data (if found) providing only secondary contributing phenomena.



The fin-failure-leading-to-breakup sequence is strongly suggested in the attached (below) narrative report by George Larson, Editor emeritus of Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine.



It's regrettable that these aircraft are permitted to continue in routine flight operations with this known structural defect. It appears that safety finishes last within Airbus Industries, behind national pride and economics. Hopefully, this accident will force the issue to be addressed, requiring at a minimum restricted operations of selected platforms, and grounding of some high-time aircraft until a re-engineered (strengthened) vertical fin/rudder attachment structure can be incorporated.



Les



--------------------------(George Larson's Report)---------------------



This is an account of a discussion I had recently with a maintenance professional

who salvages airliner airframes for a living. He has been at it for a while, dba BMI

Salvage at Opa Locka Airport in Florida. In the process of stripping parts, he sees

things few others are able to see. His observations confirm prior assessments of

Airbus structural deficiencies within our flight test and aero structures communities

by those who have seen the closely held reports of A3XX-series vertical fin failures.



His observations:

"I have scrapped just about every type of transport aircraft from A-310,
A-320, B-747, 727, 737, 707, DC-3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, MD-80, L-188, L1011
and various Martin, Convair and KC-97 aircraft.

Over a hundred of them.

Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as
airframe structure is concerned by an almost obsession to utilize composite
materials.

I have one A310 vertical fin on the premises from a demonstration I just

performed. It was pathetic to see the composite structure shatter as it did,

something a Boeing product will not do.

The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on rudder and elevators is
the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen and I am
not surprised by the current pictures of rescue crews recovering the

complete Vertical fin and rudder assembly at some distance from the crash

site.

The Airbus line has a history of both multiple rudder losses and a vertical
fin and rudder separation from the airframe as was the case in NY with AA.


As an old non-radar equipped DC4 pilot who flew through many a thunderstorm
in Africa along the equator, I am quite familiar with their ferocity. It is not

difficult to understand how such a storm might have stressed an aircraft

structure to failure at its weakest point, and especially so in the presence of

instrumentation problems.

I replied with this:

"I'm watching very carefully the orchestration of the inquiry by French
officials and Airbus. I think I can smell a concerted effort to steer
discussion away from structural issues and onto sensors, etc. Now Air
France, at the behest of their pilots' union, is replacing all the air data
sensors on the Airbus fleet, which creates a distraction and shifts the

media's focus away from the real problem.


It's difficult to delve into the structural issue without wading into the
Boeing vs. Airbus swamp, where any observation is instantly tainted by its
origin. Americans noting any Airbus structural issues (A380 early failure
of wing in static test; loss of vertical surfaces in Canadian fleet prior to
AA A300, e.g.) will be attacked by the other side as partisan, biased, etc. "


His follow-up:

One gets a really unique insight into structural issues when one has
first-hand experience in the dismantling process.

I am an A&P, FEJ and an ATP with 7000 flight hours and I was absolutely
stunned, flabbergasted when I realized that the majority of internal
airframe structural supports on the A 310 which appear to be aluminum are
actually rolled composite material with aluminum rod ends. They shattered.

Three years ago we had a storm come through, with gusts up to 60-70 kts.,

catching several A320s tied down on the line, out in the open.



The A320 elevators and rudder hinges whose actuators had been

removed shattered and the rudder and elevators came off.

Upon closer inspection I realized that not only were the rear spars
composite but so were the hinges. While Boeing also uses composite

material in its airfoil structures, the actual attach fittings for the elevators,

rudder, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are all of machined aluminum."

-----------------(end of narrative)---------------

[V8Ian]

How many hours were on this ship?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

From the wiki.

"The aircraft involved was an Airbus A330-203, with manufacturer serial number 660, and French aircraft registration F-GZCP.[11][12] F-GZCP was powered by two General Electric CF6-80E1 engines with a maximum speed of Mach 0.86 (913 km/h, 493 KT) at flight level 350 (10.7 km altitude) and a range of 12,500 km (6749 NM).[11] The first flight of the aircraft was on 25 February 2005 and at the time of the accident it had flown for 18,870 hours"

Quite a new aeroplane...

[V8Ian]

From the wiki. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)

"The aircraft involved was an Airbus A330-203, with manufacturer serial number 660, and French aircraft registration F-GZCP.[11][12] F-GZCP was powered by two General Electric CF6-80E1 engines with a maximum speed of Mach 0.86 (913 km/h, 493 KT) at flight level 350 (10.7 km altitude) and a range of 12,500 km (6749 NM).[11] The first flight of the aircraft was on 25 February 2005 and at the time of the accident it had flown for 18,870 hours"

Quite a new aeroplane...
That's not big hours, surely other 330s have flown in similiar conditions. It puts fatigue in doubt. Did the aircraft fly into the storm? I was under the impression that they were merely "in the vacinity".

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That's not big hours, surely other 330s have flown in similiar conditions. It puts fatigue in doubt. Did the aircraft fly into the storm? I was under the impression that they were merely "in the vacinity".

I think the problem is they don't know exactly where it was as it was a long way off the coast....

All fingers are pointing to pitot icing at the moment. It would be a surprise if the cause was deemed to be anything else - if they find a cause. If you loose airspeed in "coffin corner" at night and in a thunderstorm many people are saying that it would be almost impossible to keep things within the airspeed window despite there being a procedure for it.

Airbus issued a procedure some time ago that if you loose airspeed you set the throttles to a designated position, and hold a specific number of degrees of positive incidence. Then, you basically hope that the ASI starts working again. There is no descent procedure without an ASI.:eek:

[V8Ian]

I think the problem is they don't know exactly where it was as it was a long way off the coast....

All fingers are pointing to pitot icing at the moment. It would be a surprise if the cause was deemed to be anything else - if they find a cause. If you loose airspeed in "coffin corner" at night and in a thunderstorm many people are saying that it would be almost impossible to keep things within the airspeed window despite there being a procedure for it.

Airbus issued a procedure some time ago that if you loose airspeed you set the throttles to a designated position, and hold a specific number of degrees of positive incidence. Then, you basically hope that the ASI starts working again. There is no descent procedure without an ASI.:eek:
Now that's a bit of a worry.:confused:
How hard would it be to fit a heating element around the ASI?

[muddymech]

Now that's a bit of a worry.:confused:
How hard would it be to fit a heating element around the ASI?


the ASI is just an instrument the information comes from the pitot static tubes and these are heated (too hot to touch in air mode), in the old days the instrument would basically read the difference between pitot air and static air px, but now thats read by sensors that tell a computer that tell the instrument what to say, this is better as it reduces the run of pipe work required so reduces chance of error or error from damaged pipes that make great steps or hand holds.
ian