Stiff or Hard Gear Changes

[ruskinrowe]

Hi,

Got me a Series 2a Landy, Holden 186 Engine, Non-Syncro'd 1st and 2nd (But Syncro'd 3rd and 4th).

Been a Good box for a long time now, but recently started getting hard to get into Gear (While Driving along and in stopped position). It doesn't Grind in 3rd or 4th EVER, even recently, does however (Sometimes) in First, Second and Reverse. My Guess is it's a original Series 2a FourSpeed box.

I'm going to start with Changing the Oil and wondered what viscosity I should use or is there a standard gear oil? While I'm at it, is Diff Oil the same or do I need different oils there?

Any things I should be looking for while I'm with the tools indicate wear or what the hard change could be caused by?

Thanks,
-Bryan.

PS: Hard/Stiff Change means, I drive along, clutch in, come out of second gear and to where 3rd should be and it won't go in without a big push/shove, then Clutch out. Also happens with 3rd to 4th. Not so much when down changing. A little Tap on the Accelerator doesn't make it any easier or Harder.

[ruskinrowe]

Just a thought,

How would I go about checking the Clutch engages all the way? When I'm on a dead flat ground and I press the pedal all the way in the car stays still (No Roll forwards or Backwards).

I've got some Hydrolic System that hooks up to a leaver which then disappears under the firewall. Is that standard on Series?

Sorry for all the Questions, I've always had Classic Holdens and they where FULL of metal Linkages, Not Hydrolics Hybrids.

-Bryan.

[Blknight.aus]

if a perfect rev match doesnt make it easier to pick the gear you either have the wrong/no oil in the box OR you have a dying bearing probably the input/output shaft support bearing.

[JDNSW]

I would suspect the clutch is not fully disengaging. Simplest way to check this is probably to chock the front wheels, jack up one back wheel clear of the ground. Release handbrake, ensure 2wd. Start engine, engage any gear and release clutch. This will start the wheel turning. Push the clutch pedal right in, the wheel should stop almost immediately and stay stopped.

If it does not, the clutch is not disengaging fully, and this is the problem with the gearbox. There are two probable reasons for this. 1. Hydraulic problems. 2. One of the pins transferring movement from the clutch slave cylinder to the release fork is broken.

A possible (but unlikely) hydraulic problem is that the locknuts on the pushrod for the master cylinder have come loose - this can be checked by removing the cover on top of the pedal box. It is more likely to be a faulty master cylinder or slave cylinder. Leaking fluid from either may show where the problem is, but if there is no leak it is more likely to be the master cylinder.

If the slave cylinder is moving a reasonable distance (look underneath while someone else operates the clutch) then it is likely to be the transfer of motion to the release fork. The slave cylinder rotates a shaft, which is coupled to the fork shaft by a short tube, with the motion carried by two cross pins. The load on these is very high, and they are quite likely to fail, especially if replaced by pins or bolts that are not as hard as the originals. It IS possible to replace these without removing the gearbox, but you will need to remove the floor and transmission tunnel, and it helps to have small fingers.

There is a very slight chance it is the pilot bush in the flywheel dragging or a damaged clutch plate. These are box out jobs.

If the test above shows it is not the clutch, then as Dave says, it is probably a bearing in the gearbox - always assuming that there is oil in the box!

John

[ruskinrowe]

Thanks for all your help folks, Just to post my solution incase anyone else does a search for this thread someday.

My Landy is now working well.

It seems that the adjusting nuts from the slave cyl to the leaver under it may have slipped, or wound itself in. When I wound it back out, it still didn't move the leaver to disengage the clutch enough, causing drag. I'm not sure as to why this is happening, it seems the pin just doesn't have enough adjustment in it, maybe to do with the Adaptor and Holden Engine having different Clutch Plates or something.

To Check all this I did a Fluid Change, adjustment on the pedal box/master cyl end, still dragging clutch.

Finally to solve the problem I bought a bolt that is longer then the pin the slave cyl moves and just used it, basically giving me more adjustment range.

The Only side affect now is that my Clutch Pickup point is now rather high, I just need to play with that Adjuster again.


Again, Thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions, Gearbox Feels Great as does Clutch pedal.

-Bryan.

[Newbs-IIA]

don't forget to double clutch changin up gears as well as down gears - your gearbox will thankyou in the future. When going up gears you don't have to match revs - just let clutch out in neutral with foot off the accelerator and it should match the speed of the gear you are going into pretty well (unless you are revving the ring out of to get up a hill hahaha)

Nice looking IIA by the way do you have a build up thread or similar with some piccys in it? Also do you run a sailsbury in the rear with the 186?

[JDNSW]

Thanks for all your help folks, Just to post my solution incase anyone else does a search for this thread someday.

My Landy is now working well.

It seems that the adjusting nuts from the slave cyl to the leaver under it may have slipped, or wound itself in. When I wound it back out, it still didn't move the leaver to disengage the clutch enough, causing drag. I'm not sure as to why this is happening, it seems the pin just doesn't have enough adjustment in it, maybe to do with the Adaptor and Holden Engine having different Clutch Plates or something.

To Check all this I did a Fluid Change, adjustment on the pedal box/master cyl end, still dragging clutch.

Finally to solve the problem I bought a bolt that is longer then the pin the slave cyl moves and just used it, basically giving me more adjustment range.

The Only side affect now is that my Clutch Pickup point is now rather high, I just need to play with that Adjuster again.


Again, Thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions, Gearbox Feels Great as does Clutch pedal.

-Bryan.

Unless it is a very early 2a there is no need to adjust this link, and should never be a need to extend it. The engine change should not have affected it. The most likely reason is that one of the pins linking the coupling tube between the shaft the slave cylinder turns and the shaft that operates the clutch release fork is partly sheared. This is likely to fail completely (usually at the worst moment) and I would investigate them.

John

[ruskinrowe]

Unless it is a very early 2a there is no need to adjust this link, and should never be a need to extend it. The engine change should not have affected it. The most likely reason is that one of the pins linking the coupling tube between the shaft the slave cylinder turns and the shaft that operates the clutch release fork is partly sheared. This is likely to fail completely (usually at the worst moment) and I would investigate them.

John

I'm guessing your that shaft your talking about has two points to fail, one outside the casing and one inside moving the fork. I don't really want to take the whole thing out, it is a 1971 box, how did the older ones differ?

I think that this problem started the last time I came back home from 4WDing, maybe it sheared itself while I was being rough.


Nice looking IIA by the way do you have a build up thread or similar with some piccys in it? Also do you run a sailsbury in the rear with the 186?

It's standard Original Axles and Diffs, I'd like to change to a ratio around 4.11 or high 3's. I've Driven many Classic Holdens with 2.78 ratios power by 186's and 202's, and they all seemed fine. Sorry, I don't have any resto Pics, though alot had been done when I bought her.

Many people have told me that Boxes will break or Diff centres will break with Stock Holden Engines, and that Lower Ratio Diffs will break my 2a box but I've seen some crazy things done to these old girls and not one broken yet. Mate of mine had a 302 Winsor with C4 Auto, Stock Diffs, never broke one and he was a nutter.

All that said, right now I'm dealing with a bit of a gearbox/clutch problem so nothing is un-breakable.

[ezyrama]

Thanks for all your help folks, Just to post my solution incase anyone else does a search for this thread someday.

My Landy is now working well.

It seems that the adjusting nuts from the slave cyl to the leaver under it may have slipped, or wound itself in. When I wound it back out, it still didn't move the leaver to disengage the clutch enough, causing drag. I'm not sure as to why this is happening, it seems the pin just doesn't have enough adjustment in it, maybe to do with the Adaptor and Holden Engine having different Clutch Plates or something.

To Check all this I did a Fluid Change, adjustment on the pedal box/master cyl end, still dragging clutch.

Finally to solve the problem I bought a bolt that is longer then the pin the slave cyl moves and just used it, basically giving me more adjustment range.

The Only side affect now is that my Clutch Pickup point is now rather high, I just need to play with that Adjuster again.


Again, Thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions, Gearbox Feels Great as does Clutch pedal.

-Bryan.

Seems to be a similar problem I am having with my 2a, 1st and reverse are a ****** to engage unless I select 4th and then 2nd, the clutch is as heavy as all get out, so the extra long bolt thing is what the old owner said he was going to do but didn't get the time to do it before I bought it and got it up here.I take it the adjustment you are talking about is the vertical bolt with the large adjusting nut about an inch or two from the bottom of the lever. I
am looking at attacking mine this weekend so if anyone can confirm this it would be appreciated.

Cheers Ian

[Shonky]

1st and reverse are a ****** to engage unless I select 4th and then 2nd

Sounds like a normal 2A to me Ian. ;)

Ambrose is the same, and his box has led a pampered life and only 28,000miles (only 5,000 since the Army, and 3,500 of those were me!)

[ezyrama]

if a perfect rev match doesnt make it easier to pick the gear you either have the wrong/no oil in the box OR you have a dying bearing probably the input/output shaft support bearing.

Hi Dave

What's the best oil for these gearboxes (2a), my everyday drive just runs 15w40 engine oil up here in nice 23 degree winter weather;)

Cheers Ian

[JDNSW]

I'm guessing your that shaft your talking about has two points to fail, one outside the casing and one inside moving the fork. I don't really want to take the whole thing out, it is a 1971 box, how did the older ones differ?
......

There are two weak points on the cross shaft coupling, at each end of the tube about 2" long, coupled to the shaft that operates the fork and the shaft operated by the slave cylinder by two hardened pins. At first glance the first of these couplings in inside the bell housing, but in fact it is accessible from outside, although thin fingers and long nose pliers do help!

The gearboxes changed (several times) in ratios and the diameter of some shafts, but nothing that would affect the clutch mechanism. The 1971 box is usually considered to be the pick of the Series boxes.

John

[ruskinrowe]

It may sound like a standard thing for S2's but mine has never been better. I was told some have two pins in the leave that get's pushed, Mine has only one. Basically, You have:

Slave Cyl, Treaded Rod with Adjusting Nut, Leaver with Pin.

The Rod and Nut is what I replaced with a longer one.

I now can select 1st or Reverse without ANY grind or clunk at all. I can finally sit at the lights in neutral and when it changes green clutch in, select first, and take off. No Grind or Clunk.