Making tyres better in the wet - any tips???

[isuzurover]

I have some 33" MTRs on the IIA. They have 50-60% tread left, but have become so hard they slide around like crazy on wet bitumen. Surprisingly, they still work well at 7psi offroad, but I notice the difference from when they were new.

I can't really complain, as I have gotten at least 50-60k km out of them so far, however I am loathe to throw them away when they have so much tread left. They really hardened up when we drove the IIA from Brisbane. The long highway km's must have evaporated the remaining plasticisers out of the rubber...

SO - has anyone tried anything like siping to make tyres grip better in the wet?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I dont see why not,,
siping allows blocks to squirm, which should help in the wet,,

hard tyres and rain =:o

[discowhite]

yep, what pedro said,

i usta re groove and sipe old hard tyres for my speedway sedan.
works quite well.

cheers phil

[B92 8NW]

This also happens to BFG all terrain, they go as hard as iron. Personally I like the wet handling characteristics:D.

I was chatting to an Indian guy who manages a Bob Jane store and he said wipe them down every now and then with a diesel soaked rag.

Quick google on "softening tyres" has a few different mixtures Home brewed tire softener - ThumperTalk (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-419379.html)

[big guy]

You could buy better tyres.!!!!!!!!!!

Once they go hard, that's petty much it.

[isuzurover]

On the drive home today I locked it in 4x4 as a precaution. Going around a roundabout, I managed to get 4-wheel drift!!! :eek::D:twisted:



You could buy better tyres.!!!!!!!!!!

Once they go hard, that's petty much it.

Thanks for your input. Did you actually read my post??? :p

They are fine in the dry, and fine offroad. Just slippery in the wet, and ONLY HALF WORN!!!

[bussy1963]

Drive slower :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Newbs-IIA]

as a second opinion, why don't you send them over to me in Brisvegas and I will test them out on my ex army IIA

i rekon it sounds like a ripper of an idea haha :p especially the idea of 4 wheel drifting in a Series rover lol

more importantly, show us a piccy of your IIA with 33s!!!!! I am thinking of getting some for my ex-army IIA 109" GS, would love to see how they look & what rims you used

[isuzurover]

Drive slower :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

In is a IIA with a naturally asthmarated diesel. How can I drive any slower!!! :D

Seriously though - I usually drive slowly in the wet, except when I am alone and testing the limits of the tyres. The main issue is when I have to stop in a hurry in the wet.

Newbs - I have posted quite a few pics on here in various places, all on 33's.

[Newbs-IIA]

Cheers mate I have done some searching and found alot of them ;) Good looking rig

[big guy]

Yep--I read your post.
Read it well also.
Buy better tyres!!!!!!!

Off road tyres are exactly that and should not be used on the road for the exact reason you just asked us.

Big fat tyres should be taken off the market unless used for beach driving.

I also read your tyres are 50-60% worn, for MTR's thats probably beyond their effective wear.
I sell or give my tyres away after they reach 40-50% and only use ATR's at the most aggressive especially on the bitumen as that is when I hit the skids I want my tyres to retard the vehicle so my insurance will cover me should there be a crash.

In the wet is when 80% of 15km/h or less accidents happen.
tyres play a major role.

My suggestion is buy road worthy good quality tyres to suit the medium you are driving on.

Or, drive a hugely lifted Hi-lux with the biggest tyres available, look like a hero and fall into the category my tiler just got himself into.

After his uncontrollable skid, he ended up in a shop window and his tools in the back of the ute smashed through his window and cracked his skull, he lost sight in one eye due to internal bleeding, uncontrollable shaking in his arms now and unable to work.

insurance not paying for his truck, hospital or any of his personnel expenses.
tyres not suitable for the application they were used in.

Its in court now and even the tyre fitter is in trouble and could potentially change the way off-road tyres are sold.
I can keep you posted.

case still pending, been going 19 months now and he is unable to work as tiler.

get some new tyres that are not too hard and intended for use on the road.

My advise since you asked.

[Blknight.aus]

keep me posted...

its a very game insurance agency to try that line....

there is no regulation on the type of tyre or tread so long as its above the minimum legal requirement, of the right size, load and speed rating for the vehicle its fitted to its legal in australia.

[Dave_S]

Ben, I remember you having a scary moment on crap old tyres in the middle of a far flung land a few years back:D Hope you're not having flashbacks:o

[big guy]

Australia and its tyre laws and lack there of.

He has been there already and the whole thing really stinks the long and the short of it is they wanted and escape and that is the tack they are following.

My new Golf has tyres on it that are not available for purchase in australia.

They have similar but not exactly same, they will never be sold here yet they do not brake any laws. Quite bazaar, the kids capsule designed to a much higher standard by Audi/VW do not comply but are designed for the exact vehicle can not be imported and or used.

I figure and many others do that tyres are equally important but laws are very loose.

Tyres are one of the single most important part of any vehicle, add water and everything can turn to crap.

I lived in Europe for some time, most places have summer/winter tyres, mainly for snow but also for water and flash flooding/aqua planing.

My current Cooper ATR's on my Disco are 50-60% down now, sure they are still legal but in the recent rain they did let go in the back and the old Tdi is no rocket ship.

I will replace them very soon.

Money well spend and let some one use the old ones on a farm or for off roading where the going is slow yet still need good tyres.

I wish him well with his hard and half worn tyres but really, its a no brainer.

Lets let no one else get hurt on the road.

[big guy]

Oh and of the right size!
Would that be referring to the recommended one by the manufactureer on the inside of most doors.

Who on here has those?

[rick130]

Ben, pump them up above normal dry pressures.
It makes quite a difference, it's an old racers trick ;)

I also used to lock the hubs and slip the CJ6 into 4WD when it rained. It definitely helped.

[mike 90 RR]

Let some air out of the tyres ... Takes the roundness off the "contact surface" of the road

[B92 8NW]

Ben, pump them up above normal dry pressures.
It makes quite a difference, it's an old racers trick ;)



Let some air out of the tyres ... Takes the roundness off the "contact surface" of the road

Keep the pressures the same. It won't make any difference as nothing will have changed:D:D

[mike 90 RR]

Ben, pump them up above normal dry pressures.
It makes quite a difference, it's an old racers trick ;)

I also used to lock the hubs and slip the CJ6 into 4WD when it rained. It definitely helped.


Let some air out of the tyres ... Takes the roundness off the "contact surface" of the road


Keep the pressures the same. It won't make any difference as nothing will have changed:D:D

:p :p :p :p :p :p

Choices man ... choices :D

[rovercare]

Oh and of the right size!
Would that be referring to the recommended one by the manufactureer on the inside of most doors.

Who on here has those?

Pffft:p

Drive accordingly;)

[isuzurover]

Ben, pump them up above normal dry pressures.
It makes quite a difference, it's an old racers trick ;)

I also used to lock the hubs and slip the CJ6 into 4WD when it rained. It definitely helped.

Thanks Rick. I run them at 46 psi. They have worn evenly at that pressure, except across the nullarbor - where they wore more in the centre - despite the (500 kg - ish) load on.

big guy (or should that be guy who is compensating for something??? :D). "buy better tyres" - FYI - when I bought them they stuck like glue in ALL conditions - I couldn't fault them or get them to break traction... FAR better than any previous tyres I had bought. FAR better than the NEW Falken HTs I also had at the time (which were probably the worst tyres I have owned). The MTRs have 50-60% tread REMAINING - you must be richer than me if you could afford to throw them away. Despite what I have said, they still grip better than any cross ply I have tried (the original tyre type for a IIA). Should I install Cross Ply High Milers or Xtra-Grip Cross Plys and make matters far worse than they are now??? The half worn MTRs are still better than any cross plys I have used. Last I checked, my tyres were still legal as long as they had 1.5 mm of tread or more - mine have 8 mm or more. Please crawl back under your rock until you know WTF you are talking about.

Dave - that was certainly a scary moment - fortunately no flashbacks... (dead) Dogs don't help wheel alignment... :D

[HBWC]

they aremud terain tyre they dont expell the water on hard roads well no matter what the brand the trick is to have a second set of tyres or learn to roll around cornners with out power locking the car into 4wd will only cause damage to the drive train

also keap an eye on your tyre presures it dose help to a certant degree
other wise their aint much you can do

[rick130]

<snip>
locking the car into 4wd will only cause damage to the drive train

<snip>

It's perfectly safe in the wet as you'll get enough tyre slippage to negate transmission windup.

Older Subaru's (pre centre diff ones) used to engage 4WD when the wipers were turned on.
Pretty sure a mates Dad's then new dual range Leone would do that. (and yes, it was taken 4WDing as soon as we had licences :angel: )

[big guy]

Thanks Rick. I run them at 46 psi. They have worn evenly at that pressure, except across the nullarbor - where they wore more in the centre - despite the (500 kg - ish) load on.

big guy (or should that be guy who is compensating for something??? :D). "buy better tyres" - FYI - when I bought them they stuck like glue in ALL conditions - I couldn't fault them or get them to break traction... FAR better than any previous tyres I had bought. FAR better than the NEW Falken HTs I also had at the time (which were probably the worst tyres I have owned). The MTRs have 50-60% tread REMAINING - you must be richer than me if you could afford to throw them away. Despite what I have said, they still grip better than any cross ply I have tried (the original tyre type for a IIA). Should I install Cross Ply High Milers or Xtra-Grip Cross Plys and make matters far worse than they are now??? The half worn MTRs are still better than any cross plys I have used. Last I checked, my tyres were still legal as long as they had 1.5 mm of tread or more - mine have 8 mm or more. Please crawl back under your rock until you know WTF you are talking about.

Dave - that was certainly a scary moment - fortunately no flashbacks... (dead) Dogs don't help wheel alignment... :D

Yep. thats me, over-compensating- thats it.


the rock I crawled out from under is now too small for me.

i will not lower myself and insult you, I will however say that
you are wrong.

going by what people on here are saying, Some say more, some say less psi.
Clearly these are just theories.
You say there is 8mm of tread left, that makes 16mm when new:cool::cool::cool:


The tyres are past their usuable and safe use. Ditch them.

Tyre technology has come a long way and yes I am sure they are much safer than the original fitment.

Yet you asked for help/advise. That is what I recommend when tyres are hard and past their safe use.

Go to a tyre shop and they will say same. Go ahead and try it.

Please refrain from any further insults, you do not know me and I did not and have not insulted you in any way what so-ever.
New tyres have no correlation to how rich one is just when tyres are stuffed, they are not safe for you and your family more also not other road users.

:):):):) Now take a deep breath and smile.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

MOD HAT ON


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[mike 90 RR]

Thanks Rick. I run them at 46 psi.


I run mine at 36 psi ... This is the max psi written on the side wall casing of my tyre // What does yours say :angel:

Practical demonstration .... If you want to do a burn out ... Pump up your tyres hard as a rock, and they will light up easily :twisted:

Lower psi will give you more tread contact on the road :)


The rains have just started in Perth this week, So all the roads are greasy // Take care

Mike
:)

[rick130]

I run mine at 36 psi ... This is the max psi written on the side wall casing of my tyre // What does yours say :angel:

Practical demonstration .... If you want to do a burn out ... Pump up your tyres hard as a rock, and they will light up easily :twisted:

Lower psi will give you more tread contact on the road :)


The rains have just started in Perth this week, So all the roads are greasy // Take care

Mike
:)

That doesn't mean a thing when talking wet weather performance.

Drop your pressures and you lose grip in the wet.
It doesn't matter whether it's a bias or radial tyre, they react the same way.

Pumping them up opens up the siping and grooves in the tyre (admittedly a moot point on an MT) but in my mind teh main benefit is it reduces the contact patch slightly, or at least increases contact pressure on the centre of the tyre and so works the tread blocks harder rather than the carcass and actually generates some heat in the rubber and so they grip better. The heat generated is minimal, but it works.

This isn't theory but fact.

Ask any successful/winning racer, from karts through Formula Vee, Formula Ford and all the sedan classes.
It was something I learned in karts and was advised the same by Japanese Bridgestone Motorsport engineers when assisting with tyre testing back in the mid eighties.
When racing cars we did the same thing, didn't matter whether they were open wheelers or sedans.
I've watched the unknowing drop tyre pressures at the track and then watched the knowing guys drive right around the outside of them, including me.
The only time I ever dropped pressures at the insistence of a driver as "everyone else in that class did it" (I was working as a setup engineer/mechanic, first time i'd had anything to do with that category) the car was a dog and he accused me of trying to kill him.
The next race tyre pressures were set to where I wanted them, nothing else on the car was changed and he drove through the field from last and placed, and this particular bloke absolutely hated the wet.
Of course it was driver brilliance that won the day ;)

<edit> I still can't get my head around Ben running 46psi in the IIa tyres though, 285/75's hold some air, and the IIa can't be that heavy, can it ??

[Panda]

What the hell's "siping" Pedro? :eek:


I dont see why not,,
siping allows blocks to squirm, which should help in the wet,,

hard tyres and rain =:o

[mike 90 RR]

<edit> I still can't get my head around Ben running 46psi in the....??

.... Sorta, right up there eh Rick ... :D

Mike
:)

[Panda]

Now I'm really confused! :eek::eek: (Yes, I know, doesn't take much!) :D

Can someone please enlighten me as to whether they should be pumped up, kept the same or let down some? :eek:

And how many people (just interested ...) put their Landy in 4WD on the bitumen? I don't because I thought you got too much wind up in the drive train. Opinions? :)


Ben, pump them up above normal dry pressures.
It makes quite a difference, it's an old racers trick ;)

I also used to lock the hubs and slip the CJ6 into 4WD when it rained. It definitely helped.


Let some air out of the tyres ... Takes the roundness off the "contact surface" of the road


Keep the pressures the same. It won't make any difference as nothing will have changed:D:D


they aremud terain tyre they dont expell the water on hard roads well no matter what the brand the trick is to have a second set of tyres or learn to roll around cornners with out power locking the car into 4wd will only cause damage to the drive train

also keap an eye on your tyre presures it dose help to a certant degree
other wise their aint much you can do

[one_iota]

What the hell's "siping" Pedro? :eek:

Hi Panda,

If I may be permitted to steal Pedro's thunder.

:)

Stolen from Wikipedia



Siping is a process of cutting thin slits across a rubber (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Rubber) surface to improve traction (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Traction) in wet or icy conditions.
Siping was invented and patented in 1923 by John F. Sipe (http://www.aulro.com/w/index.php'title=John_F._Sipe&action=edit&redlink=1)[1] (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1452099.html?query=john+sipe&stemming=on)[2] (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1452099.pdf) The story told on various websites is that, in the 1920s, Sipe worked in a slaughterhouse (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Slaughterhouse) and grew tired of slipping on the wet floors. He found that cutting slits in the tread on the bottoms of his shoes (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Shoe) provided better traction than the uncut tread.
The process was not applied to vehicle tires on a large scale until the 1950s, when superior tread compounds were developed that could stand up to the siping process. On roads covered with snow, ice, mud, and water, sipes usually increase traction. A US patent to Goodyear claimed sipes improve tire traction as well, and tend to close completely in the tire "footprint" on the road. A 1978 study by the US National Safety Council found siping improved stopping distances by 22 percent, breakaway traction by 65 percent, and rolling traction by 28 percent on glare ice[3] (http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/trek/s176087.htm).
Tire tread block shapes, groove configurations, and sipes affect tire noise pattern and traction characteristics. Typically, wide, straight grooves have a low noise level and good water removal. More lateral grooves usually increase traction. Sipes are small grooves that are cut across larger tread elements. Up to a point, more sipes give more traction in snow or mud.
As is often the case, there are compromises. Winter tires, and "mud and snow" tires, may have thousands of sipes and give good traction. But, they may feel "squirmy" on a warm, dry road. Treadless racing "slicks" (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Slick_tire) on dry roads give maximum traction. These have no sipes, no grooves, and no tread blocks. They also have very poor traction however on even slightly wet surfaces. Tire manufacturers use different tread rubber compounds and tread designs for different tires' usages.
Large sipes are usually built into the tread during manufacturing. Sipes may also be cut into the tread at a later date, called "microsiping". Bandag developed a machine for microsiping which places a curved knife blade at a slight angle on a rotating drum. The drum is placed so when it is pressed against the tread the tire is pressed into an exaggerated hollow, as if driving down a rail. The drum is lubricated and rotated and the knife makes a series of diagonal cuts across the tread. For improved traction, the tire may be siped twice, leaving diamond-shaped blocks. A significant problem with field siping is that the tread picks up rocks, glass, and other hard road debris in use, and even with thorough cleaning the knife service life is often poor.
Microsiping can dramatically improve tire traction in rain and snow. However, microsiped tires may also have increased road noise and tire wear when operated on dry surfaces. Some companies such as Les Schwab (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Les_Schwab) however claim that microsiped tires reduce tire friction heat and tire wear and extended the life of the tire. [4] (http://www.lesschwab.com/siping.asp)
In Massachusetts in the 1970s, it was legal to operate a school bus with bald tires, provided they were double microsiped.
Both Bridgestone (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Bridgestone) and Michelin (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Michelin) sell snow tires (http://www.aulro.com/wiki/Snow_tire) that are siped at the factory, while Saf-Tee Siping and Grooving (http://www.aulro.com/w/index.php'title=Saf-Tee_Siping_and_Grooving&action=edit&redlink=1) sells machines that can sipe most standard vehicle tires. Siping can also be done by hand. Be aware that siping the tires can void the manufacturer's warranty.
Note: Claims that extended life is achieved by siping may only apply to certain environments, operating temperatures and rubber compound builds.

[Panda]

Thanks Mahn ... now I get it :D


Hi Panda,

If I may be permitted to steal Pedro's thunder.

:)

Stolen from Wikipedia

[green_disco]

In is a IIA with a naturally asthmarated diesel.

33's.
:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[rmp]

Higher pressures do work better in the wet.

Reason; a greater contact patch is not ideal in water as it leads to aquaplaning. You can test this for yourself by doing some full-on emergency stops at say 7psi below manufacturer's recommended and 7psi above. Logic; what's easier to press through standing water to grip the road, a flat plate of 300 x 300mm or the end of a 6x4 post?

Lower pressures are great on dirt roads and soft surfaces.

It's all to do with the nature of the surface.

Don't put your vehicle in 4WD on bitumen in the wet. You'll get windup. Again, try it and see, nobody need take my word for anything, do your own tests.

Instead of 4WD, slow down and drive more carefully.

Big Guy, please keep us posted on that case, sounds interesting.

If tyres are legal you'll be insured unless the insurance company has some specific exclusions, which is unlikely. However, waiting till the legal limit isn't a good idea.

[Panda]

That makes sense, thanks rmp. :)


Higher pressures do work better in the wet.

Reason; a greater contact patch is not ideal in water as it leads to aquaplaning. You can test this for yourself by doing some full-on emergency stops at say 7psi below manufacturer's recommended and 7psi above. Logic; what's easier to press through standing water to grip the road, a flat plate of 300 x 300mm or the end of a 6x4 post?

Lower pressures are great on dirt roads and soft surfaces.

It's all to do with the nature of the surface.

Don't put your vehicle in 4WD on bitumen in the wet. You'll get windup. Again, try it and see, nobody need take my word for anything, do your own tests.

Instead of 4WD, slow down and drive more carefully.

Big Guy, please keep us posted on that case, sounds interesting.

If tyres are legal you'll be insured unless the insurance company has some specific exclusions, which is unlikely. However, waiting till the legal limit isn't a good idea.

[Blknight.aus]

go the hi milers.....

I'm running a set and Ive driven them through water up past the lower door sill, on iced roads on wet clay, on pea gravel, wet slippery rocks, on wet roads, dry roads, grass, wet grass and my driveway...

great rubber in a series diesel powered series...




Mind you I could just about do the same on old school steel wheels.

[rick130]

<snip>

Don't put your vehicle in 4WD on bitumen in the wet. You'll get windup. Again, try it and see, nobody need take my word for anything, do your own tests.

<snip>

Funny, I used to drive my old Jeeps around in 4WD in the wet all the time and never once had a t/case wind up, which is more than I can say for off road use.
Having said that I will admit that tyre technology has advanced somewhat since the early/mid eighties. :D

[Panda]

Hey Rick ...

Love that insect you have at the bottom ... it gets me every time, I try & swat it off the computer ... :Rolling::Rolling:


Funny, I used to drive my old Jeeps around in 4WD in the wet all the time and never once had a t/case wind up, which is more than I can say for off road use.
Having said that I will admit that tyre technology has advanced somewhat since the early/mid eighties. :D

[rick130]

Hey Rick ...

Love that insect you have at the bottom ... it gets me every time, I try & swat it off the computer ... :Rolling::Rolling:

:D
you're not the only one from what I've heard :angel:

[rmp]

Funny, I used to drive my old Jeeps around in 4WD in the wet all the time and never once had a t/case wind up, which is more than I can say for off road use.
Having said that I will admit that tyre technology has advanced somewhat since the early/mid eighties. :D

OK, fair enough I should have been more specific ;-)

An old vehicle, not weighing very much with little grip to start with on old offroad tyres might be ok in the wet, as you have said. But modern tyres on a later vehicle and you're looking at windup.

[rmp]

I have some 33" MTRs on the IIA. They have 50-60% tread left, but have become so hard they slide around like crazy on wet bitumen. Surprisingly, they still work well at 7psi offroad, but I notice the difference from when they were new.

I can't really complain, as I have gotten at least 50-60k km out of them so far, however I am loathe to throw them away when they have so much tread left. They really hardened up when we drove the IIA from Brisbane. The long highway km's must have evaporated the remaining plasticisers out of the rubber...

SO - has anyone tried anything like siping to make tyres grip better in the wet?

I don't think it's the tread so much as maybe the age of the tyres? If they've done 60k on a S3 that's probably quite a few years?

No tyre should be used much past 7 years because the oils that give it flexibility it needs pass out of the tyre. This process is accelerated if the tyre is exposed to sunlight and not used.

All said though, maybe don't use those tyres on the road any more? But as they're 50% worn, if they work offroad, use them offroad and pick up a cheap set of roadies on steel rims instead. I don't know whether that can work for you, just throwing ideas out, but it probably wouldn't be a good look if you had an accident on these tyres. If you don't want to buy a new set see what's available on eBay, or put a Wanted ad out.

[Gazz]

I have had a 2.4 Rocky and a Disco 97TDI I have put BFG all
Terrains on both, the reason for this is BFG terrains give good traction in the wet as well as the bush. I run them on normal pressure on the road and drop the pressure for deflection for off road depending on the situation.

[rick130]

I don't think it's the tread so much as maybe the age of the tyres?
<snip>


Absolutely, and I think Ben is aware of that too.

Heat, UV are the killers of rubber, we're just tossing some ideas out there that might help a little, but you'll never regain 'new' grip.

There are even tyre 'softeners' that are painted on or soaked into the tread and are marketed to motorsport people (and are illegal in most all categories, at least in circuit racing) and supposedly replace the lost oils, and some even claim to reduce the durometer of the base rubber.
They evaporate out too fast and possibly leave the tyre in worse condition than it started.

[V8Ian]

Tyres have a manufacture date on them. In Queensland any tyre over five years old is deemed unroadworthy, I imagine other states would have the same rules.

[Blknight.aus]

not quite....

5 years from the date of installation.....

providing the tyre has been correctly stowed.

which is why high quality tyres come shipped in a black saran wrap.

[one_iota]

The trusty owners handbook recommends that tyres be replaced after 6 years for this reason.

[V8Ian]

not quite....

5 years from the date of installation.....

providing the tyre has been correctly stowed.

which is why high quality tyres come shipped in a black saran wrap.
How does the roadworthy dude know the history of the tyre between manufacture and fitting Dave? My son got knocked back on a RWC as two of the tyres were over five years old, but still had 60-70% tread left.

[LandyAndy]

Hey Ben
Before each trip,drop her in low4 and smoke em up.That SHOULD make them nice and STICKY.
OH I forgot,2.25 NA Diesel:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[Slunnie]

The tyres are coded on the sidewall which indicates when they were manufactured.

Another factor is that the MTR was made from a Silca compound, not the normal rubber. That may also affect their expected life, softening/hardening etc etc etc.

I've never heard of anybody being rejected for a pink slip in NSW for old tyres.

[Blknight.aus]

and there lies the legal rub of the law in this case.....

(do not ask why I know this its a very very annoying topic of argument between me and the idiots who count the beans over the writing of the law and the intent.)

(ok ask in PM if you have to)

[Blknight.aus]

Hey Ben
Before each trip,drop her in low4 and smoke em up.That SHOULD make them nice and STICKY.
OH I forgot,2.25 NA Diesel:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

hey I did that yesterday on the blacktop out the front of my house...

admitedly it was -3 and there was ice on the road.

fozzy went from idling to full noise and made no progress.. I had to double check I got it in gear and that the tcase was in range.

The bus that nearly collected me wasnt ready for it either.

[Tombie]

Regardless of the law... In this case... Its Your backside... Do you really want to run 5+ year old tyres?

Theres a BIG thing from manufacturers about them, the cords are aged, the carcass is subject to moisture and they can fail catastrophically...

All manufacturers put only a 5 year life on their tyre products..

I say, dont chance it, your life and other motorists around you are more important...

[DiscoMick]

Serious question - so does blacking your tyres or spraying them with something, such as light oil (Lanolin?), actually make any difference to slowing down their hardening, or is that just a myth?

[Blknight.aus]

it has the potential to increase the life of the rubber by keeping it "oily"

(roughly speaking oil content is the difference between some plastics and rubber)

but it also increases the chances of lamination failure depending on what oil, what rubber and what process was used in the manufacture of the rubber in the tyre and the tyre itself.

[Panda]

Bloody hell, the things you learn ... :D

[DiscoMick]

Is that why they say spares should have covers?

[Blknight.aus]

yep.

[big guy]

Hmmmm

Suddenly more folks are agreeing the tyres are not salvageable and best to get a new set for the sake of his and others safety.

Roadies for the road and Off-roadies for off-road.
Can't get any simpler than that.
Thanks for clearing that up.

[rovercare]

Hmmmm

Suddenly more folks are agreeing the tyres are not salvageable and best to get a new set for the sake of his and others safety.

Roadies for the road and Off-roadies for off-road.
Can't get any simpler than that.
Thanks for clearing that up.

My roadies ARE muds:D

[rick130]

Hmmmm

Suddenly more folks are agreeing the tyres are not salvageable and best to get a new set for the sake of his and others safety.

Roadies for the road and Off-roadies for off-road.
Can't get any simpler than that.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Except that Land rover sell the 130 with off road/Mud tyres from the factory.
I don't think anyone could call a Michelin XZL an HT tyre.

Your argument doesn't hold water. (pun intended :D)

(and BTW, all the mining companies, large stations, t/bred studs and utility companies fit MT's to their vehicles around here. I'm sure their insurance bods would have stopped the practice by now if there was a hint of a problem. Unlike weekend warriors we are constantly going farm track/goat track/no track/highway in the bush. Two sets of rims/tyres are impractical and modern MT's are fine on the blacktop in wet or dry weather. Modern compounding has come a long way)

[rmp]

Two sets of rims/tyres are impractical and modern MT's are fine on the blacktop in wet or dry weather. Modern compounding has come a long way)

Second part -- agree entirely, I've never run two sets and have had muds on my daily driver for years with no problems. I'm far too lazy to change wheels every second weekend.

First part -- two sets are only impractical for some people. They make a lot of sense in some situations.

[big guy]

Modern tyres sure have.

The tyres we are talking about are crappy, over inflated expired hard ones.


Simple really.

[rick130]

I should've added "impractical here, where I live and work".

Two sets of rims/tyres may very well make sense in another situation.

[big guy]

Each to their own.

[isuzurover]

Andy, Love the suggestion, but I might have to borrow the V8 from your series to do that ;)

I have probably exaggerated how slippery these tyres are... Just that when they were new they stuck like glue - even in the wet - and were better than any HTs or ATs I have tried. They are still safer than any 7.50 cross plys I have tried (original fitment). And safer than most 235s I have run.

I just measured them - minimum tread depth is 8-9 mm. Tread wear is even - which means they aren't overinflated - despite insinuations to the contrary.

I have found ths same as Rick - higher pressures helps traction in the wet.

The IIA is a mainly an offroad toy, so sees very little road/highway use (except when it is called in to cart firewood)...

My other "car" has (new) Maxxis Bighorns ;). They don't grip quite as well as the MTRs did when new, but still better than most tyres.


I run mine at 36 psi ... This is the max psi written on the side wall casing of my tyre // What does yours say :angel:

Practical demonstration .... If you want to do a burn out ... Pump up your tyres hard as a rock, and they will light up easily :twisted:

Lower psi will give you more tread contact on the road :)


The rains have just started in Perth this week, So all the roads are greasy // Take care

Mike
:)

Mike - if you look closely it should say that is the max pressure to use when seating the beads. Not the max pressure in use. [EDIT - just checked and MTRs do state a max pressure = 50psi]. When new, I tried pressures in the 30's. The supple sidewalls of the MTRs flexed too much. When I pumped them up higher the on-road handling improved significantly. The same goes for the bighorns on the 110.

I agree with you on dry roads - but the opposite is true on wet roads.

As you say, this the roads have been very greasy of late - due to the first decent rains in about 6 months. So maybe the tyres are not to blame... I will try them again after the next lot of rain.

[rick130]

<snip>
The same goes for the bighorns on the 110.

<snip>


ditto. I've had to run significantly higher pressures on road with the Big Horns than I ever did with BFG MT's, the case is much more supple.
I've found the Big Horns (and the two sets of BFG MT's in between) much, much better in the wet than the Bridgestone MT's I ran seven years ago, they did give me some pucker moments :eek:
The last three sets of MT's have been comparable in grip on road to the BFG AT's on the Patrol, and don't chip as badly either.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I know the frustration. When I bought my Lotus the car had NEW tyres on it. Unfortunately they were 10+ years old. I was driving down a hill near me at about 30k in the wet one day and tried to stop. Not a chance. I eventually managed to pull it up but I nearly jumped out I was going so slowly.

I just bought some new ones. Due to the tiny size of them (by todays standards) it was only like $400 including tubes. It doesn't make sense to have old tyres on a sports car.

Also, tyres are legally supposed to be used within 5 years of manufacture I believe. Someone may be able to confirm this? The manufacture date is stamped on them. I was told this is because the rubber cracks which can allow water in and rust the steel belting leading to failure.

I drove home with a friend in our MINI's one night in the pouring rain. He had cut race slicks on (just enough groves to be able to drive on the road). I thought he was going to go off but he had heaps of grip - more than me on full road tyres.. It shows that compound is very important in the wet.

[isuzurover]

To be honest, I have never heard of this tyre "use by" date before... In fact I know an old German mechanic who stores new tyres in the shed for 2 or 3 years before using them - so they would "last longer"

I doubt very much that it is a legal/rwc requirement. As I have put several vehicles through RWCs over the years with no issues. I am some of these vehicles would have had tyres over 5 years old. Even in Germany, which is one of the strictest places in the world when it comes to RWCs, I got a golf roadworthied with VERY old tyres, and it passed (though with a comment on the form that the tyres were old). I replaced them shortly after. NB - I always carefully check all my tyres for defects, etc...

I found this thread...
Expiry Date on Tyres @ ExplorOz (http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/13622/Expiry_Date_on_Tyres.aspx)

http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/13665/tyre_use_bye_date.aspx

[isuzurover]

All manufacturers put only a 5 year life on their tyre products..

.

Any evidence of this???

This document says Japanese tyre manufacturers say 10 years and EU say 6 years:
Essentials of Tire Expiration & Manufacturing Date - AC Delco Auto Parts - Zimbio (http://www.zimbio.com/AC+Delco+Auto+Parts/articles/58/Essentials+Tire+Expiration+Manufacturing+Date)

However these are only reccomended replacement intervals. The tyre is still 100% legal after that time if it is free from visual defects and has more than 1.5 mm tread (although I would never suggest people run tyres down to 1.5 mm)

[V8Ian]

Any evidence of this???

This document says Japanese tyre manufacturers say 10 years and EU say 6 years:
Essentials of Tire Expiration & Manufacturing Date - AC Delco Auto Parts - Zimbio (http://www.zimbio.com/AC+Delco+Auto+Parts/articles/58/Essentials+Tire+Expiration+Manufacturing+Date)

However these are only reccomended replacement intervals. The tyre is still 100% legal after that time if it is free from visual defects and has more than 1.5 mm tread (although I would never suggest people run tyres down to 1.5 mm)
This is not an Australian article, therefore a bit irrelivant to our rules and conditions.

[isuzurover]

This is not an Australian article, therefore a bit irrelivant to our rules and conditions.

True, but it states that These are GUIDELINES set by the tyre manufacturers, not binding rules. I posted up a question on outerlimits, as there are a few approved inspectors and tyre sellers on there.

From a RWC incpector in the ACT:

BS, we used to knock them back if they had any type of damage or failure due to age but that is all.

When I first built my IIA, the tyres fitted were an unknown age (whatever we had lying around that was legal), yet it went through a (QLD) roadworthy fine. That was in 1995. In 1996 I bought a new set of tyres for the IIA (BFG Trac Edge) and these were fitted to my 110 when it passed a roadworthy inspection in WA at the end of 2006 (they have since been replaced - at about 3-4 mm tread). The IIA I built for dad had ex-military half-worn steeltreks of unknown age when it went through its RWC. etc. etc...

This is the first time I have heard of tyres having such a short "shelf" life.

[V8Ian]

As I mentioned earlier, my son was knocked back (Qld RWC) as the tyres were over 5 yo. They were a quality 215/65x15, purchaced new by me about 4 - 4 1/2 years previous and showed no sign of defect. Ben enquired at QT and was told by an inspector that QT deemed any tyre over 5 yo unroadworthy.

[isuzurover]

As I mentioned earlier, my son was knocked back (Qld RWC) as the tyres were over 5 yo. They were a quality 215/65x15, purchaced new by me about 4 - 4 1/2 years previous and showed no sign of defect. Ben enquired at QT and was told by an inspector that QT deemed any tyre over 5 yo unroadworthy.

Do you have that in writing? Nothing on the QT site which states that - just says tyres must be free from defects and have at least 1.5 mm tread across the entire section.

[dullbird]

how the hell did they know how old the tyres were......

[V8Ian]

Do you have that in writing? Nothing on the QT site which states that - just says tyres must be free from defects and have at least 1.5 mm tread across the entire section.
He made a verbal enquiry as he thought the RWC guy was having a go, trying to get a sale for a pair of tyres. QT Pineapple St confirmed it without prompting.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

fwiw,,
about 25 years ago (gawd was it that long??:eek:) I did a Defensive RIDING course at the old Amaroo Park,, The mate I went with got knocked back at the Tech inspection as his front tyre had small cracks showing---

[isuzurover]

fwiw,,
about 25 years ago (gawd was it that long??:eek:) I did a Defensive RIDING course at the old Amaroo Park,, The mate I went with got knocked back at the Tech inspection as his front tyre had small cracks showing---

He should have done the Burt Munro trick with the boot polish :D

[B92 8NW]

how the hell did they know how old the tyres were......

Its stamped on the tyre as a code. A secret mysterious code:D

[dullbird]

so how would you tell how old a remould is? for example the mongrels when bought to fit a 15 wheel didn't have the sides capped....there for the person that had them had new tread on the tyre but had the side walls showing from the old carcus both inside and out.

[V8Ian]

so how would you tell how old a remould is? for example the mongrels when bought to fit a 15 wheel didn't have the sides capped....there for the person that had them had new tread on the tyre but had the side walls showing from the old carcus both inside and out.
That's the normal method or retreading or recapping, the age of the case is the only relivence.

PS you avoiding the question in Scully's thread?

[dullbird]

That's the normal method or retreading or recapping, the age of the case is the only relivence.

PS you avoiding the question in Scully's thread?

What question what the hell is scullys thread?

[V8Ian]

What question what the hell is scullys thread?
Sculls blocking........./Panda

[isuzurover]

so how would you tell how old a remould is? for example the mongrels when bought to fit a 15 wheel didn't have the sides capped....there for the person that had them had new tread on the tyre but had the side walls showing from the old carcus both inside and out.

This is a very good point. I am sure that most carcases used for retreading would be older than 5 years. Most retread failures I have seen are due to tread separation, not carcass failure.

[dullbird]

Sculls blocking........./Panda

well what question am I avoiding I'm not trawling through 53 pages to find out:wasntme: So you will just have to remind me or post a link;)

[V8Ian]

This is a very good point. I am sure that most carcases used for retreading would be older than 5 years. Most retread failures I have seen are due to tread separation, not carcass failure.
With so many el cheapo, hoo flung dung tyres on the market nowadays, retreads/recaps are less popular. I would imagine with the abundance of cases dumped each day the retreaders would have the opportunity to pick the best for recycling, and not process old cases. As an example, not so many years ago, truck tyre casings (bald) were worth $90 - 100, now they are worth next to nothing.

[isuzurover]

With so many el cheapo, hoo flung dung tyres on the market nowadays, retreads/recaps are less popular. I would imagine with the abundance of cases dumped each day the retreaders would have the opportunity to pick the best for recycling, and not process old cases. As an example, not so many years ago, truck tyre casings (bald) were worth $90 - 100, now they are worth next to nothing.

Yes, but the el-cheapo tyres are probably less safe/reliable than running a +5 yr old tyre from a reputable brand.

[DiscoMick]

So, it must have been a fresh registration as you can renew an existing registraiton in Qld without an inspection, yes?

[isuzurover]

So, it must have been a fresh registration as you can renew an existing registraiton in Qld without an inspection, yes?

In QLD you need a roadworthy when registering an unregistered vehicle or before you advertise a registered vehicle for sale.

In WA you only need a roadworthy when registering an unregistered vehicle or bringing a vehicle in from interstate. (SA too I think)

Not sure about other states.

[clean32]

In QLD you need a roadworthy when registering an unregistered vehicle or before you advertise a registered vehicle for sale.

In WA you only need a roadworthy when registering an unregistered vehicle or bringing a vehicle in from interstate. (SA too I think)

Not sure about other states.

correct on SA

[DiscoMick]

So, hypothetically speaking, returning to the OP, if a person sitting not that distant from myself wanted to oil those of his 6 year old BFG ATs which still have 50% of their tread left to extend their life, what kind of oil would be best? After all, I don't want to overdo the oiling and slide off the road into the shrubbery, so I assume they'd have to be left to sit for a while to dry out. Possible choices:



Tyre black
Lanolin or similar light oil
Heavy oil
Some special mixture (what?)

Whattayourekon?

[V8Ian]

Yes, but the el-cheapo tyres are probably less safe/reliable than running a +5 yr old tyre from a reputable brand.
Structurally they are reasonabley sound, they have to meet a minimum standard. Compounds are played with, a brand is introduced with a hard compound. Word gets around that one bung lung tyres last forever,in the meantime, the compoundhas been altered. By the time the tyres have a bad name, the brand has been changed, start again. these type of tyres are generally bought by people who are looking for the cheapest tyres, not the safest.

[V8Ian]

So, it must have been a fresh registration as you can renew an existing registraiton in Qld without an inspection, yes?
New rego of a 15 yo Volvo:clap2:

[flagg]

Move to Canberra; it never rains there :p:wasntme:

[isuzurover]

So, hypothetically speaking, returning to the OP, if a person sitting not that distant from myself wanted to oil those of his 6 year old BFG ATs which still have 50% of their tread left to extend their life, what kind of oil would be best? After all, I don't want to overdo the oiling and slide off the road into the shrubbery, so I assume they'd have to be left to sit for a while to dry out. Possible choices:



Tyre black
Lanolin or similar light oil
Heavy oil
Some special mixture (what?)

Whattayourekon?

You can get products like this: AZNU page (http://www.ozrace.com/aznu.html)
However they are for race/offroad use only, and as Rick said, they may do more harm than good.

It has been stated on another forum that only the outer layer of the tread hardens, so if you can remove that layer (while driving or otherwise) then the tyre will work better.

Ozone deteriorates rubber (see here: Ozone cracking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) so make sure no "ozone cracking" is visible. This also suggests that tyres which spend most of their time in sydney or melbourne would deteriorate/harden more rapidly than those which are driven mostly in country areas.

I checked the date on my tyres this morning. If I am reading it right, they were manufactured (in the USA) in mid 2002. However they were in storage for 3 years while we lived OS. As they look perfect (defect free), have no issues when aired down as low as 7psi, still grip better in the wet than the original cross plys, I have no issues with still running them (but will of course drive accordingly - in 4WD - in the wet). I might try siping them out of interest though. Or "smoking them up" with the mighty 2.25D :D

[rick130]

<snip>

It has been stated on another forum that only the outer layer of the tread hardens, so if you can remove that layer (while driving or otherwise) then the tyre will work better.

<snip>

I don't buy that at all.
Tyres do 'skin', but it scrubs off pretty quickly.
Heat cycles and UV are the real killers, and the tyre engineers I knew reckoned that once the oils leached out the tyre was hard through.

We also proved this when tyre testing different makes/types/compounds for the category.
All tyres went off with heat cycles, some much faster than others and none ever 'recovered' their grip once lost, they only lost it, regardless of how they were scrubbed.

This was borne out when I threw away far too many sets of Dunlop race tyres in the last year I raced.
Often they would only have one meeting under them and two weeks later you would take them out and they would be 2 seconds a lap slower at Eastern Ck :eek:

Not 2/10, but 2 whole seconds.

The car would be sliding all over the place and virtually undriveable.
After twenty laps sideways on every corner you should have worn a bit of rubber off, but they would never come back, and everyone else had the same problem.

Bolt a new set of tyres on and off you'd go again, instant speed.
They couldn't even be used for practice/testing, they were so bad.
Interestingly the Avon tyres used previously and in subsequent years were far more forgiving, dropping little time as they wore out and were far more consistent overall.
Just better compounding and construction.

[dullbird]

Aren't the compounds in race tyres very different to road tyres though Rick? I thought race tyres had an incredible short life regardless.....like F1 tyres I thought they were only good for so many laps not races

[V8Ian]

Aren't the compounds in race tyres very different to road tyres though Rick? I thought race tyres had an incredible short life regardless.....like F1 tyres I thought they were only good for so many laps not races
When you get to F1 there are differing compounds for different tracks, temperatures, weather, driving style/preference/skill, et al; almost day of the week!
Compound selection is particularly strategic the higher up the classes you consider. Balance lost time per lap/number of laps for given compound/lost time changing tyres.

[isuzurover]

Big Guy, please keep us posted on that case, sounds interesting.

If tyres are legal you'll be insured unless the insurance company has some specific exclusions, which is unlikely. However, waiting till the legal limit isn't a good idea.

I suspect the guy in question was running illegally oversized tyres, and/or non adr/dot approved tyres. Which would give the insurance company grounds - if they can show the tyres contributed to the accident.





<edit> I still can't get my head around Ben running 46psi in the IIa tyres though, 285/75's hold some air, and the IIa can't be that heavy, can it ??

Missed this previously Rick. When I first bought the tyres (and the IIA was a hardtop), I found 42-44 handled best on-road. I pumped them up to 45/6 coming across the nullarbor, and have kept them there since. It weighs about 1950kg (unladen except for tools, spare, jack, recovery gear).






Btw - I thought some people may not have seen this, which was posted in the poll:

http://www.gates.co.uk/images/tyre_prod_date.jpg
This tyre was made in the 48th week of 2006

Pre 2000 tyres used a 3 digit code.

Reading the code. The code is pretty simple. The three-digit code was used for tyres manufactured before 2000. So for example 1 7 6 means it was manufactured in the 17th week of 6th year of the decade. In this case it means 1986. For tyres manufactured in the 90's, the same code holds true but there is a little triangle after the DOT code. So for this example, a tyre manufactured in the 17th week of 1996 would have the code 176triangle
After 2000, the code was switched to a 4-digit code. Same rules apply, so for example 3 0 0 3 means the tyre was manufactured in the 30th week of 2003.

[clean32]

there was a program on TV. some racing team, rather than get there tiers from the supplier at the track they had picked up the same tiers a few month earlier from another dealer. they were only lasting 4-6 laps. turns out they were 2 years old ( old stock) apparently race tiers doint have a shelf life.

[isuzurover]

Did a quick experiment today. This morning the roads were almost dry. Couldn't get the tyres to break traction.

Most of the day it has been raining on and off lightly. Had to pick up some lab stuff at lunch, so did a small experiment. With the tyres at their usual pressure (44psi) in an unladen IIA ute in 2WD, drove along some back streets - and as per usual the tyres slid a bit when I pushed the IIA hard.
Dropped pressures (rear only) to about 36 psi. Drove the same backstreets at similar speeds. The car slid around MORE, and even chirped the tyres when changing into 2nd - something I have never done ijn the IIA!!!

[lardy]

I have some 33" MTRs on the IIA. They have 50-60% tread left, but have become so hard they slide around like crazy on wet bitumen. Surprisingly, they still work well at 7psi offroad, but I notice the difference from when they were new.

I can't really complain, as I have gotten at least 50-60k km out of them so far, however I am loathe to throw them away when they have so much tread left. They really hardened up when we drove the IIA from Brisbane. The long highway km's must have evaporated the remaining plasticisers out of the rubber...

SO - has anyone tried anything like siping to make tyres grip better in the wet?

well maybe when i buy some bfg's and some new road wheels you could buy my wolf wheels and at's that are on there, but then by the time i get through with them summer will be back and you will be over the idea lol