Airliner chat

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm not sure how many people there are out there with aviation interests so I thought I'd put this up.

The Boeing 787 looks as though it will make it's first flight in the next couple of weeks (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3aa74fb56c-8656-4b24-a1c8-7f7f934a8316).

I'm excited :)

[Sleepy]

Yes a nice looking aircraft - and quite a while since boeing had an all new airframe.

A somewhat different approach to the Airbus A380 - Cattletruck :p

I wonder what extra distance they will get ? Sydney to New York?

[JDNSW]

With apparently a largely composite structure, it is a very bold step into unfamiliar territory, although probably no more than Airbus' step into fly by wire.

Unfortunately for Boeing, they have picked a poor time (GFC) to be launching a revolutionary new plane. I suspect most customers will prefer to stick with something more familiar, at least until someone more adventurous has a few in trouble free service!

John

[dullbird]

I have an email with a PDF that shows the strange shapped super critical wing....and heaps of other shots from around the plane landing gear etc etc..

Ian sent it to me this morning

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Despite the high percentage of Carbon Reinforced Plastic they reckon it passes all the lightening test standards. But they said that about the chopper in the North Sea that had it's crp/titanium tail rotor blown off :o

You are right about the GFC John. However I'd rather be Boeing pushing the most fuel efficient airliner ever than Airbus pushing the biggest airplane in the world. They have to be full or near full or your airline bleeds. I read that an empty 747 costs 75% as much to operate as a full 747 :o

@DB they are already using super critical wings on the 777.

[flagg]

beautiful.. but so damn boring to fly I'll bet :twisted:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/673.jpg


:D

Bring back TEX I say :)

[dullbird]

Despite the high percentage of Carbon Reinforced Plastic they reckon it passes all the lightening test standards. But they said that about the chopper in the North Sea that had it's crp/titanium tail rotor blown off :o

You are right about the GFC John. However I'd rather be Boeing pushing the most fuel efficient airliner ever than Airbus pushing the biggest airplane in the world. They have to be full or near full or your airline bleeds. I read that an empty 747 costs 75% as much to operate as a full 747 :o


@DB they are already using super critical wings on the 777.


oh ok Ian led me to believe that a lof of things on this plain are already tried and tested on the bowings...he said its the stuff on the inside and the materials used if proven will make the plane exceptional.....looking at the photo's I think the wing looks a lot different than a 777....move curve but....when Ian was telling me he made it sound like there was a difference with the wing design..

he is 777 qualified......but I may have just misunderstood what he said

[Mikes defender]

The more i read on that gadget, the more i like it.. Electric brakes, bleedless engines, they have even done away with the windowshades and are using LCD. A real clean sheet design. I love it when a company throws away the norms and starts fresh. Don't think we will see one in australia till 2011...

[dullbird]

heres a couple of pics there was like 58 of them I just choose a couple

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/665.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/666.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/667.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/668.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/669.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/670.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/671.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/06/672.jpg

[lardy]

[QUOTE=Captain_Rightfoot;1000977]Despite the high percentage of Carbon Reinforced Plastic they reckon it passes all the lightening test standards.
I understood the fuselage was a ali fibre/glass resin layer.
5 0r 10 mm ali with fibre glass matting bonded by resin ....is that not so chief?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

[QUOTE=Captain_Rightfoot;1000977]Despite the high percentage of Carbon Reinforced Plastic they reckon it passes all the lightening test standards.
I understood the fuselage was a ali fibre/glass resin layer.
5 0r 10 mm ali with fibre glass matting bonded by resin ....is that not so chief?

Look.. I only have info available to the public but I'd be very surprised if they were using fibreglass. It's my understanding that the a380 uses aluminium with fibreglass reinforcement though.

That's what makes the 787 so special and "new". It has a predominately CRP body and the worlds first (for an airliner) carbon fibre wings. From wiki...

"The 787 features lighter-weight construction. Its materials (by weight) are: 50% composite, 20% aluminum, 15% titanium, 10% steel, 5% other.[79] Composite materials are significantly lighter and stronger than traditional aircraft materials, making the 787 a very light aircraft for its capabilities.[80] The 787 will be 80% composite by volume.[81] Each 787 contains approximately 35 tons of carbon fiber reinforced plastic, made with 23 tons of carbon fiber.[82] Composites are used on fuselage, wings, tail, doors, and interior. Aluminum is used on wing and tail leading edges, titanium used mainly on engines with steel used in various places.[79]"


"Composite fuselage


Disassembled fuselage section of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner
The 787's all-composite fuselage makes it the first composite airliner in production. While the Boeing 777 contains 50% aluminum and 12% composites, the numbers for the new airplane are 15% aluminum, 50% composite (mostly carbon fiber reinforced plastic) and 12% titanium. Each fuselage barrel will be manufactured in one piece, and the barrel sections joined end to end to form the fuselage. This will eliminate the need for about 50,000 fasteners used in conventional airplane building. According to the manufacturer the composite is also stronger, allowing a higher cabin pressure during flight compared to aluminum"

You can read lots about it at the wikipedia site.

Big thanks at DB for the pics :)

[JDNSW]

.......... However I'd rather be Boeing pushing the most fuel efficient airliner ever than Airbus pushing the biggest airplane in the world. They have to be full or near full or your airline bleeds. I read that an empty 747 costs 75% as much to operate as a full 747 :o
.......

This was the criticism of the 747 when it was introduced - but the 747 is the aircraft that made long distance air travel affordable for most people. And the same % figure is true for any aircraft, depending of course on the level of fares you can charge. The cost per seat comes down with increased size almost regardless of anything else. To give an example - simply because of size of aircraft (resulting from amount of traffic) it is cheaper to fly from Sydney to NZ than it is from Sydney to Dubbo.

John

[Bigbjorn]

This was the criticism of the 747 when it was introduced - but the 747 is the aircraft that made long distance air travel affordable for most people. And the same % figure is true for any aircraft, depending of course on the level of fares you can charge. The cost per seat comes down with increased size almost regardless of anything else. To give an example - simply because of size of aircraft (resulting from amount of traffic) it is cheaper to fly from Sydney to NZ than it is from Sydney to Dubbo.

John

Last time I flew Brisbane-Winton I could have gone to Singapore for less.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Here is an excellent article on pitot icing (http://www.sae.org/events/icing/presentations/2007s30duvivier.pdf) which may be one of the causes of AF447.

It is looking increasingly as though this aeroplane broke up in flight. There is a good roundup here (http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/171533.asp).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well... it's been delayed as part of the body side requires reinforcement.

See here. (http://technologyreview.com/blog/editors/23752/)

:(

[JDNSW]

Well... it's been delayed as part of the body side requires reinforcement.

See here. (http://technologyreview.com/blog/editors/23752/)

:(

Actually, as I understand it, it is worse than that - it is the wing attachment. And what is even worse, testing on the actual structure has shown up errors in the structural design. (Software coding errors I wonder?) It is very late in the process to be finding this sort of problem, although obviously better than after it goes into service!

John

[Leo]

I understood the fuselage was a ali fibre/glass resin layer.
5 0r 10 mm ali with fibre glass matting bonded by resin ....is that not so chief?

No, the 787 fuselage is almost 100% CFRP. There are Al parts used, but not much - only 20% of the entire aircraft. There's a video somewhere on the net of them making a fuselage section, from start (Carbon Fibre 'yarn') to the finished product.

Here's a pic of a fuselage section prior to removal of the mold:

http://www.voughtaircraft.com/gallery/locations/southCarolina/sc_production1_med.jpg

I think the Airbus A350 will have similar construction, but I could be wrong.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Actually, as I understand it, it is worse than that - it is the wing attachment. And what is even worse, testing on the actual structure has shown up errors in the structural design. (Software coding errors I wonder?) It is very late in the process to be finding this sort of problem, although obviously better than after it goes into service!

John

Oh dear. It could be years until we see this thing in the air.

[JDNSW]

The problem of errors in software is, I suspect a sleeping monster in a lot of areas. I ran across one of these in the 1990s, in a piece of navigational software that had been used by one of our contractors for twenty years (with the code lifted from one set of software to new systems without rewriting). Increasing precision of work showed a worrying systematic degradation of data that eventually was traced to a navigational problem. This in turn was eventually found to be a software error that only operated in the southern hemisphere in changing from grid north to true north. The error was that the programmer explicitly changed the sign of a cosine function for negative angles, forgetting that the cosine is negative for negative angles.

More recently, my brother, who is a US resident, advised me of a New York court case where a drink driving case has successfully managed to get the code for a breathalyser to be opened for the court, and has found that there was a simple error in the method of determining an average of readings - instead of summing figures and dividing by the number of figures, the code added each additional figure to the previous sum and divided by two. Which does not give the same answer!

A well documented case was an unmanned space mission, one of the Mars landers, I think it was, where a mission failure was tracked down to an incorrectly handled change of units from imperial to metric.

What I am talking about is errors which do not affect whether the software runs reliably, but gives incorrect results. In most software, testing ensures that no serious errors exist for normal ranges of input, but most software today is so complex that it is impossible to test all possible routes through the software, and there is a real risk that results can be either slightly wrong a lot of the time, or wildly wrong on rare occasions, or both. And they can continue a long time like that.

In very critical systems, such as Airbus fly by wire software, they use triplicated systems, with different hardware, different software teams (not allowed to talk to each other) and different operating systems.

Any reasonable view of the software that is pervasive today in everything we do must come to the conclusion that there are a lot more of this sort of problem lurking to bite us.

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Exactly John. My first reaction (as a computer person) when you mentioned software errors in the design process was "Where do you stop?".

I found this video linked off this site (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2009/06/breaking-boeing-postpones-787.html). It sounds like I'm glad they have physical testing processes and found the problem now.

YouTube - FlightBlogger - 787 Delay Explained - June 23, 2009

[lardy]

Here is an excellent article on pitot icing (http://www.sae.org/events/icing/presentations/2007s30duvivier.pdf) which may be one of the causes of AF447.

It is looking increasingly as though this aeroplane broke up in flight. There is a good roundup here (http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/171533.asp).

What about the one that picked up a bee/wasp nest in its pitot on some tropical island ....then the other one that had it tapped up during maintanence .....er i believe these aircraft didn't make a successful landing

[JDNSW]

What about the one that picked up a bee/wasp nest in its pitot on some tropical island ....then the other one that had it tapped up during maintanence .....er i believe these aircraft didn't make a successful landing

Don't know that one, but I remember years ago doing a circuit and successful landing in my Auster with no airspeed indication - and then cleaned the mudwasp out of the pitot tube. It had an automatic cover, which I had assumed protected it - but it was parked head to wind and this lifted the cover!

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

When I flew gliders the older ones the ASI wasn't so important as they weren't all that quiet. You could pretty easily work out the speed. The instructors used to cover the ASI as part of normal training and checks. The higher performance gliders were quieter and it would have been harder in those to asses speed. I didn't ever have a problem though.

Having said that the one instrument failure that most glider pilots would dread would be the loss of the little piece of cotton at the base of the windscreen. Now that was critical!

[JDNSW]

Not up on gliders - only ever flown them a couple of times, many years ago. Just to give it a try. Most of my flying has been on a Cessna 180 and Beech 36, but also on a variety of others - learnt to fly in Victas, first plane I owned was an Auster, then the 180 when I moved to PNG, then various rental aircraft. Haven't flown for ten years.

John

[juddy]

I thought the 787 had been delayed for another 2 months... and a number of orders deffered.

[Sleepy]

The problem of errors in software is, I suspect a sleeping monster in a lot of areas. I ran across one of these in the 1990s, in a piece of navigational software that had been used by one of our contractors for twenty years (with the code lifted from one set of software to new systems without rewriting). Increasing precision of work showed a worrying systematic degradation of data that eventually was traced to a navigational problem. .....
John

And let's not forget the Mt Erebus crash was a data error. :(

[JDNSW]

And let's not forget the Mt Erebus crash was a data error. :(

Mt Erebus was mainly a procedural problem. OK, it centered on a data error, but the problem was a combination of how the data got input (organisational failures), plus failure of the flight crew to follow prudent operational procedures (again, largely organisational). No software problems that I know of, although there were navigational limitations - but these were known.

John

[Sleepy]

Mt Erebus was mainly a procedural problem. OK, it centered on a data error, but the problem was a combination of how the data got input (organisational failures), plus failure of the flight crew to follow prudent operational procedures (again, largely organisational). No software problems that I know of, although there were navigational limitations - but these were known.

John

Yes, like most of these incidents, a number of issues all aligned to cause a tragic outcome.

I find it interesting though, the more we automate systems, the more we rely on those systems to complete situational awareness. This, of course, is not limited to aviation, but to all areas of automation.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Something different for a Saturday morning.

This impressed me immensely. The 727 is an amazing plane and after watching this I now understand it's short field abilities :)

YouTube - Amerijet Dominica landing

And from outside...

YouTube - landing at melville hall dominica

And - looking for a tenuous link to the above two videos, another 2 on the tail aeroplane - the md80 coming in to land. It's fascinating how much control work is happening just before touchdown. :)


YouTube - cockpit landing MD80 alitalia

[JDNSW]

One of the more interesting landings I have experienced was in a 747SP at Wellington NZ. Touchdown with auto braking on (brakes come on with full application subject to ABS as weight comes on the wheel, and full reverse thrust as soon as the nosewheel touches. I was on the top deck - and a poorly stowed coffee pot shot out of the kitchen and landed at the door to the cockpit!

John

[StephenF10]

Mt Erebus was mainly a procedural problem. OK, it centered on a data error, but the problem was a combination of how the data got input (organisational failures), plus failure of the flight crew to follow prudent operational procedures (again, largely organisational). No software problems that I know of, although there were navigational limitations - but these were known.

John

It would be hard to blame the pilots for the Erebus crash. They had a waypoint changed (unknown to them) which, instead of leading them down over the flat ice of McMurdo Sound, led them straight into Mt.Erebus. Because of the layer of stratiform cloud hiding the top of the mountain, the featureless white slope of the mountain under the cloud looked just like the featureless flat ice they were expecting to see, and the intersecting line of the cloud on the mountain looked like the distant horizon.

The antics of Air New Zealand in trying to cover up their many errors and failures led to Justice Peter Mahon describing their evidence as "an orchestrated litany of lies".

Stephen.

[Grumndriva]

Absolutely correct Stephen. Captain Collins and his crew acted prudently throughout. It is sad that they are still maligned by those who, despite the irrefutable evidence to the contrary, still believe that he descended below lowest safe in IMC. (Not referring to your comment JD, but to the comments I sometimes hear in the industry) What killed them all was the systemic issue you described, coupled with the lack of contrast in the terrain and the reflection of light between the overcast and the snow. Very sad. The fellow who discovered what actually happened and spent years researching the way that the brain can incorrectly process vision, Gordon Vette, was subsequently incapacitated by a severe stroke but still lives in New Zealand. As a result of the accident and Gordon Vette's work, aviation is much safer now for all. Justice Peter Mahon (who was effectively hounded for telling the truth and died shortly after the Privy Council action), also deserves our thanks for not bending to political and commercial pressure, and perservering in his search for the truth.
I'll get off my hobby horse now.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Round and round the taxiway she goes... when she flys nobody knows! (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2009/07/more-on-787-taxi-testing.html) :D

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/assets_c/2009/07/LCF-787-thumb-560x388-40597.jpg

[Sleepy]

That must be very frustrating for them. I bet they'd like to do a "howard hughes" and just lift it off a few metres;)

[Windaroo]

You might find this site interesting re Erebus

Erebus plane crash disaster story. Air New Zealand flight TE901 crashed at Mt Erebus Antarctica 28 November 1979 > Home (http://www.erebus.co.nz/)

[fatcat]

hi all i heard on te news virgin do not do a saftey check before each flight bit of a worry i wont like thinking of that next time work puts me on one cheeers all

[V8Ian]

hi all i heard on te news virgin do not do a saftey check before each flight bit of a worry i wont like thinking of that next time work puts me on one cheeers all
They must do a prestart each morning though.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Also, the captain should walk around his ship and inspect before each flight for obvious things (might not have helped in this case). It does add new relevance to "kick the tyres, light the fires".

Did anyone hear the pilot union saying it could have crashed the plane? I thought of possible reasons... CG change, front leg failure just before rotation...etc. No, he said he was worried that it could have been sucked one of the jets. That seems very very unlikely to me.

[Leo]

hi all i heard on te news virgin do not do a saftey check before each flight bit of a worry i wont like thinking of that next time work puts me on one cheeers all

No need to worry - the mainstream media are often inaccurate in their reporting of aviation matters. There are standard operating procedures in place to ensure safety. No airline wants their plane to crash.

[strangy]

Main stream media exaggerate??? Nooo.

My favourite term from the media when associated with aircrfaft is
"Plummet"
You cant have a good story without an aircraft plummeting.

Cheers:p:p

[VladTepes]

That wing looks like a seagull !

[Mikes defender]

There is no requirement by casa, the boeing or airbus for an engineer to carry out a pre flight check on a domestic flight.

The only people in the world that have this requirment is the qantas union. They are using this incident to justify there practices. The pilot is responible for doing a walk around befor every flight. The engineers do a "pre flight" and a "post flight" at the end of the day. If the aircraft is going Extended Range or ETOPS an other pre flight is carried out befor flight.

For the Union rep to say that a preflight check could have prevented this is a lie. The axel cracked and broke off, how could this be seen on a pre flight safety check is beyond me. Engineers do not have xray vision. If he was really concerned about safety, he would be calling for schedualed inspections of the axel. But he would be wasting his breath because boeing, casa, atsb, are now all working on the problem.

The media has enough trouble reporting the facts without people feeding them more lies. If you want to find out about go to Australian Transport Safety Bureau (http://www.atsb.gov.au). to get the real facts.

Sorry about this rant.

[juddy]

I have read it may not even fly this year, problems with the wing boxs, needing a new design, current build aircraft cant be modified.....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I have read it may not even fly this year, problems with the wing boxs, needing a new design, current build aircraft cant be modified.....

Oh dear.. that will hurt.

For a bit of fun...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY5B7r5-0Ik&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eflightglobal%2Ecom%2Fblogs %2Funusual%2Dattitude%2F&feature=player_embedded

:eek: :D

[juddy]

In te latest issue of both a UK and Oz Aviation mag, news is, first orders, may be late 2010. Ground testing currently taking place, engine, brake test's.

A number of Airlines have also now cancelled, or defered orders.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Oh oh.. another Airbus loosing airspeed indications. Despite this plane having the new pitot design.

AirFrance A320 looses airspeed indicators (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41d651ac&opt=0)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

:D:D

YouTube - Hitler's 787 Delayed

You may also want to watch this before it is pulled!

[YouTube - Ride on a U2 spy plane

[Sleepy]

Saw that a couple of weeks ago. That was a terrific show with James May.

Amazing rate of climb on the U2.:eek:

[JDNSW]

Possibly the right place in this thread to note that a Twin Otter has gone missing en route from Port Moresby to Kokoda with nine Australians among the 13 on board. Having flown over that route myself, it does not look good. Although about the time I left PNG a Caribou crashed on the same route with a load of school cadets. Despite a major search, the crash site was not located until survivors walked into a village.

John

[clean32]

The problem of errors in software is, I suspect a sleeping monster in a lot of areas. I ran across one of these in the 1990s, in a piece of navigational software that had been used by one of our contractors for twenty years (with the code lifted from one set of software to new systems without rewriting). Increasing precision of work showed a worrying systematic degradation of data that eventually was traced to a navigational problem. This in turn was eventually found to be a software error that only operated in the southern hemisphere in changing from grid north to true north. The error was that the programmer explicitly changed the sign of a cosine function for negative angles, forgetting that the cosine is negative for negative angles.

More recently, my brother, who is a US resident, advised me of a New York court case where a drink driving case has successfully managed to get the code for a breathalyser to be opened for the court, and has found that there was a simple error in the method of determining an average of readings - instead of summing figures and dividing by the number of figures, the code added each additional figure to the previous sum and divided by two. Which does not give the same answer!

A well documented case was an unmanned space mission, one of the Mars landers, I think it was, where a mission failure was tracked down to an incorrectly handled change of units from imperial to metric.

What I am talking about is errors which do not affect whether the software runs reliably, but gives incorrect results. In most software, testing ensures that no serious errors exist for normal ranges of input, but most software today is so complex that it is impossible to test all possible routes through the software, and there is a real risk that results can be either slightly wrong a lot of the time, or wildly wrong on rare occasions, or both. And they can continue a long time like that.

In very critical systems, such as Airbus fly by wire software, they use triplicated systems, with different hardware, different software teams (not allowed to talk to each other) and different operating systems.

Any reasonable view of the software that is pervasive today in everything we do must come to the conclusion that there are a lot more of this sort of problem lurking to bite us.

John

intel P60 P 75 and P90

[flagg]

Not up on gliders - only ever flown them a couple of times, many years ago. Just to give it a try. Most of my flying has been on a Cessna 180 and Beech 36, but also on a variety of others - learnt to fly in Victas, first plane I owned was an Auster, then the 180 when I moved to PNG, then various rental aircraft. Haven't flown for ten years.

John

:) My first flight was in a PA28.. then a C152.. then a Robin.. and most recently an Extra (only an hour though ;)). There isn't much I wouldn't do to go flying in PNG.. One day I will. One day :angel:

[JDNSW]

:) My first flight was in a PA28.. then a C152.. then a Robin.. and most recently an Extra (only an hour though ;)). There isn't much I wouldn't do to go flying in PNG.. One day I will. One day :angel:

All my flying in PNG as PIC was in the Cessna180, except for a brief flight in a 185, but I did a lot of time there as a passenger in light aircraft, mainly BN2a, C402, C206, C185, Pilatus Porter, Bell 206b & 47, Hiller UH1100, Beech B55, Do26.

Flying in PNG is (or was when I was there, and I doubt much has changed except we now have GPS - but the maps are probably still not too good) very different from Australia. For a start, you really have to know about Density Altitude and its effect on performance - I have flown out of an airstrip with a density altitude of 12,000ft, in a normally aspirated plane (C185). Then there are the sloping airstrips. And the changeable weather. When I was there, there were still large areas on the WAC charts labelled "unexplored", where there was almost perpetual cloud cover and hence no airphotos and no maps.

Quite a few airstrips are one way, which means that you need to be up on downwind landings, and some have surroundings that ensure that by the time you cross the threshold, you are committed to a landing, and a few, you are committed to a landing before you come in sight of the airstrip.

One airstrip, Nuku, comes to mind where on final you approach to cross the ridgeline at an altitude of about thirty feet, with landing flaps already selected, and as soon as you cross the ridgeline, close throttles and maximum allowed sideslip to just short of the threshold on the opposite slope of the valley, then straighten up, and touchdown - once stable on the ground, keep it moving, otherwise the station tractor will have to tow you to the top of the hill! On takeoff, turn left almost as soon as airborne and fly down the valley until you have enough speed to climb.

John

[JDNSW]

The wreckage from the PNG flight has been found. No survivors. It appears to have flown into a near vertical cliff while executing a missed approach in bad weather.

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The wreckage from the PNG flight has been found. No survivors. It appears to have flown into a near vertical cliff while executing a missed approach in bad weather.

John

I heard someone from up there talking on the radio. Apparently their destination was clouded in so they moved on looking for somewhere to land. He said they would have been light on fuel too.

[JDNSW]

I heard someone from up there talking on the radio. Apparently their destination was clouded in so they moved on looking for somewhere to land. He said they would have been light on fuel too.

I can't see why they would have been short on fuel - thirteen is a reasonable load for a twin Otter, but it is only a short flight by Australian standards.

I wonder if the use of GPS has resulted in pilots flying into cloud they would not have risked previously? Problem is, the GPS might be right about where the plane is, but the mapping is mostly nowhere near good enough for that sort of stunt. And worse, you don't know which bits of the mapping are good. Far to many pilots lost in PNG flying in cumulo-granitus!

John

[rmp]

Don't know that one, but I remember years ago doing a circuit and successful landing in my Auster with no airspeed indication - and then cleaned the mudwasp out of the pitot tube. It had an automatic cover, which I had assumed protected it - but it was parked head to wind and this lifted the cover!

John

Did that in a glider after not removing the pitot cover before takeoff ;-)

Worked it out during the takeoff roll, who needs ASI anyway!

[JDNSW]

Did that in a glider after not removing the pitot cover before takeoff ;-)

Worked it out during the takeoff roll, who needs ASI anyway!

You can do without most instruments at a pinch - like the time all the fluid leaked out of my compass on a flight from Roma to Archerfield. I knew the route well enough to fly it by simple pilotage. Also worth noting that the only stall warning on the Auster was the controls got sloppy, wind noise got quiet, and just before the break it started to shudder a bit. And no aileron control in the stall, had to pick the wing up with rudder or you would find yourself in a spin - "don't do this near the ground!"

John

[VladTepes]

That U2 video was spectacular....

Pontiac GTO my bum, that's a Monaro ! Damn yankees.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I can't see why they would have been short on fuel - thirteen is a reasonable load for a twin Otter, but it is only a short flight by Australian standards.

John


The guy said they had been trying to land for some time and had made a few attempts and had given up. Maybe diversions and go-arounds had used their margin.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I just found this.

Crash: PNG DHC6 enroute on Aug 11th 2009, aircraft impacted mountain (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41e10a1d&opt=0)

[ramblingboy42]

having been to Dominica I would never have thought they would land 727's there. the old airstrip at Checkhall is something else. I would walk down there just to watch the a/c going in and out . btw Dominica is a wonderful little island, actually an active volcano , with about 70,000 population , not to be confused with The Dominican Republic. 365 rivers with a bar on every one each purporting to make the best rum punch. unique place to go to.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is an oldie but a goody if you're interested in this type of stuff...

YouTube - Airbus Fly By Wire Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCc-R4xXZPU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eflightglobal%2Ecom%2Fblogs %2Fflightblogger%2F&feature=player_embedded#t=596)

[V8Ian]

Warbird Wings Airshow is on at Mareeba this weekend, anyone else going?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No Comment :wasntme: :D

YouTube - A Chick Flick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlcZHhfe54Q&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eflightglobal%2Ecom%2Fblogs %2Funusual%2Dattitude%2F&feature=player_embedded)

[boa]

RULES OF THE AIR

1. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.

2. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull
the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling
the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again.

3. Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.

4. It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there than
up there wishing you were down here.

5. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

6. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep
the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot start
sweating.

7. When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided
with the sky.

8. A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again.

9. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

10. You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power
to
taxi to the ramp.

11. The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle
of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival, and
vice versa.

12. Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to
five minutes earlier.

13. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking
about might be another air plane going in the opposite direction. Reliable
sources also report that mountains. have been known to hide out in
clouds.

14. Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal to the
number of take offs you've made.

15. There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing.
Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

16. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience.
The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of
luck.

17. Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly the earth repels them.

18. If all you can see out of the window is ground that's going round
and round and all you can hear is commotion coming from the passenger
compartment, things are not at all as they should be.


19. In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going
hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour,
the ground has yet to lose.

20. Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the
experience usually comes from bad judgment.

21. It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going forward as
much as possible.

22. Keep looking around. There's always something you've missed.

23. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law. And it's
not subject to repeal.

24. The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above
you, the runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Does anyone else find this disturbing? (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41f8a286&opt=0)

[dullbird]

I find it disturbing that its powered by a PUMA :lol2:

[harry]

dick smith sorta got it right, not that he's my mate,
the more expensive the ticket, the better the maintenance
or something like that.
it does have a ring of truth in it.
not that i know anything about airline costs.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

dick smith sorta got it right, not that he's my mate,
the more expensive the ticket, the better the maintenance
or something like that.
it does have a ring of truth in it.
not that i know anything about airline costs.

Did you read the link? To paraphrase... they said hey Airbus... "why did the computers that control pretty much all the important stuff go whacko?" Airbus said... "Dunno...we think something in the puter was probably broken.. maybe...keep flying it and see if it happens again" :eek: :eek:

[Sleepy]

dick smith sorta got it right,

I'm surprised that got through the swear filter. {8-)

[V8Ian]

Did you read the link? To paraphrase... they said hey Airbus... "why did the computers that control pretty much all the important stuff go whacko?" Airbus said... "Dunno...we think something in the puter was probably broken.. maybe...keep flying it and see if it happens again" :eek: :eek:
Trained in Soulihull:p

[Bigbjorn]

Some people wonder why I am so against electronic cars. At least they only stop suddenly and leave you stranded. Aircraft have this funny ability to fall down when they stop suddenly.

[DeanoH]

Some people wonder why I am so against electronic cars. At least they only stop suddenly and leave you stranded. Aircraft have this funny ability to fall down when they stop suddenly.

I disagree. The falling down isn't the problem. It's the stopping suddenly.

Deano

[V8Ian]

I disagree. The falling down isn't the problem. It's the stopping suddenly.

Deano
The big bump..........industry terminology.:p

[muddymech]

this was sent to me today for those interested in the 787
ian


By Michael A. Dornheim
ELECTRIC CABIN
Boeing's 787 Dreamliner grabs attention for its composite structure, but its systems are just as radical.
The aircraft is a large step toward the all-electric airplane--one in which all systems are run by electricity. Bleed air from the engines has essentially been eliminated and while hydraulic actuators are still used, the majority of their power comes from electricity.
The most eye-popping change is that the cabin will be pressurized by electric motors, not by the bleed air used by almost every pressurized aircraft. Breaking with five decades of practice, Boeing claims that electric compressors are better suited for the cabin than engine bleed.
Related changes include:
*A pair of large generators on each engine will extract more than four times the normal amount of power. They total 500 kilovolt-amps (kva.) per engine, compared to a normal maximum of 120 kva. That large drag on the engine shaft may hurt compressor surge margins, and one manufacturer, Rolls-Royce, has made fundamental changes that it says improve surge margin (see p. 51).
*The generators are now large enough to be used backwards as engine starters, a task exclusively performed on large turbofans by much lighter pneumatic motors. The high torque required at low rpm. results in running the units beyond their rated current and the starting task is a bigger issue than the switch to electric cabin pressurization, says Michael J. Zolidis, chief engineer at Hamilton Sundstrand Electric Systems in Rockford.
*Anti-icing of the wing will be done with electric heat instead of bleed air. This is a large electrical load, roughly 100 kw., but much less than the nominal 700 hp. (522 kw.) that cabin pressurization takes. Engine inlet anti-icing is the only remaining bleed air function.
*Power density in the generator is 50% higher by weight and 2.5 times greater by volume than in today's units. To help accommodate that, output voltage of the three-phase device is double the norm, at 230 volts AC (VAC) instead of 115 VAC. Within the motor controllers an even higher level, 540 volts DC (VDC), is used.
*Liquid cooling has been introduced for the motor controllers, which handle hundreds of horsepower for the starters, cabin compressors and electric hydraulic pumps. While this is more efficient, it could be a maintenance problem. The propylene glycol cooling loop also is routed to galley refrigerators to take their heat.
*There is a much higher level of system integration at the supplier level. Hamilton Sundstrand has the contracts for the electrical system, cabin pressurization and environmental control system, auxiliary power unit (APU), generator drive gearbox for the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engine for the 787, ram air turbine, and several other systems. The scope is broad enough that the company is able to make design trades within each work package and across company divisions. And the design work reaches further into the aircraft, to things that Boeing might have done itself before.
Why did Boeing make the jump to electric pressurization? Some of the answers seem to be already fading in the mists of time and computer programs as the aircraft rapidly becomes more solid, and not everyone gives the same answers.
A top reason is that Boeing feels that power electronics, which are key to the all-electric airplane, are on a steep curve of performance and cost improvement, while pneumatic systems growth "tapped out" around 1995, says Michael K. Sinnett, Boeing chief engineer for 787 systems. At the moment, the performance of pneumatics and electrics is roughly similar, but electrics are poised for growth and pneumatics are not.
"This was a Boeing gut decision, and I think they made a good decision," says Clifton D. Jacobs, Hamilton Sundstrand Electrical Systems vice president and general manager. "If we get a high-temperature power transistor that needs less cooling, the system will be better later. I don't see much further improvement in bleed."
Along the same line, Boeing believes it should get its technology more from the broader industrial market, which has a large investment in better designs, rather than from what it calls the "boutique" aircraft business--and electrics have broader use than pneumatics. The billions of dollars being thrown at hybrid cars affects the motors and controllers that Boeing will use.
But do electrics burn less fuel? "When we decided on electric pressurization, it lowered aircraft empty weight 1,000-2,000 lb. and fuel burn was down several percent," Sinnett says. "But the numbers got muddied as the 787 got integrated. It's hard to say where the weight has gone."
He says the main reason the electric cabin is more efficient is that modern engines compress and heat the air too much--that energy is thrown away in the precooler and excessive expansion. At current 30-psia. bleed pressures, the amount of wasted energy is about 30%. The electric compressor creates less pressure and less waste.
A Boeing engine management workshop attended by Hamilton Sundstrand officials stated that bleed pressures of 45-50 psia. are expected, making more waste. Engineers would like to lower pressure by moving bleed ports upstream as stage pressure ratios grow, but can't because of interference with variable stator mechanisms.
Rolls-Royce says that doesn't apply to it. If the Trent 1000 were supplying bleed air, it would be at the same pressure and temperature as the Trent 700, or 30 psia. and about 370F--the same as now, says Rolls-Royce marketing manager Andrew Booth. And the bleed is not near variable stators on the three-spool engine.
The comments may apply more to General Electric and Pratt & Whitney engines. The variable stators in their engines go much further up the compression chain. A General Electric official says bleed vs. electric "is a wash relative to the engine performance. It may have differing values to each airframer on how they do the installation and how much they need to extract from the engine." General Electric is selling the GEnx engine for both the 787 and the competing Airbus A350, which uses bleed air, and must be careful not to offend either customer's design.
Other reasons may be more important. Boeing wants to reduce 787 assembly time and wants good dispatch reliability. Sinnett believes an electrical system will take less time to install than the bleed air equivalent, and have fewer nuisance faults, such as overheated bleed ducts. Wires are less likely to overheat the 787 composite structure than a bleed duct because wire problems are easier to detect quickly.
"How the prime weights things changes the answer," says John VanHorne, the 787 systems integration manager at Hamilton Sundstrand. Zolidis adds, "Aircraft of identical specifications could have completely different systems." And that is the case of the A350 and 787.
Big electric motors weren't considered before because the power electronics of just 10 years ago were too large and heavy, Sinnett says. "Now we have the weight, cost, power and reliability that works on an aircraft."
There are four cabin compressors, two on each of the two air-conditioning packs in the wing-to-body fairing. They compress outside air to roughly 15 psia. and an outlet temperature around 200F. The 6,000-ft. cabin is at 11.8 psia. The compressor wheel is about one ft. in diameter and turns 42,000 rpm. on oilless foil air bearings, though the speed of the permanent magnet motor varies in practice. Each one can produce 90-100 hp. The ozone-removing catalyst normally operates around 350F entry temperature and engineers had to make sure it works at 200F.
The low compressor pressure biases the heat rejection task away from the turbine-compressor air cycle machine, because it uses pressure drop for cooling. Instead, the new pack requires a larger radiator to dump the heat to outside air, and that increases cooling drag compared to current practice.
"We minimize the pressure drop from the compressor to the cabin and make the pack larger," says Louis J. Bruno, the engineering manager at Hamilton Sundstrand Air Management Systems. He says a low-pressure pack takes less energy overall, though there is more drag. The mixer for cold and recirculated air is much smaller than before so it will fit within the pack instead of taking space in the cargo bay.
The cargo bay is electrically heated. The environmental control system (ECS) includes the liquid cooling loop for high-power motor controllers and galley refrigerators. "We got such a large work package that we could make trades within the package," such as whether to use liquid or air cooling, says Sunil Agrawal, chief engineer at Air Management Systems. And the electrical system is intimately tied to the high power requirements of the ECS, creating design trades across work packages.
But Boeing makes Hamilton Sundstrand pay for that large role. "Boeing didn't ask us to sacrifice but to go the extra mile," Jacobs says. "There is a huge investment to make it work. We went to the top of the corporation to get the green light."
The engine generators are variable frequency three-phase alternators, and the electrical system supplies 115 and 230 VAC with frequency varying from 360-800 Hz. For components that need the traditional constant frequency power, a small amount of 115 VAC at 400 Hz. will be synthesized. There will also be the usual 28 VDC for avionics.
The variable frequency helps achieve the high power density because a heavy and bulky constant-speed drive is not needed. The six-pole generators make the maximum 800 Hz. at 16,000 rpm. and weigh about 200 lb. each.
Unusually high voltage occurs inside the system, and that is 540 VDC (actually ±270 VDC), which is rectified from the generators, then synthesized into a controlled frequency to run the big motors. This confusing conversion of AC to DC back to AC is done because the most efficient way to control a large motor is with AC power synchronized to motor rpm., Sinnett says.
The 787 will have six starter/generators--two 250-kva. units on each engine and two 225-kva. units on the APU. That makes total generating capacity 1,450 kva. The Airbus A380 with 2.5 times the maximum weight has only 840 kva.
Making an electric starter replace the proven pneumatic starter is a top concern. If the generators weren't so large, it wouldn't make sense to use them as starters, but as it is, their size is driven by both roles. The problem is accelerating the large inertia and drag of a big turbofan in a competitive time. The typical Trent pneumatic starter motor makes 200 hp., Booth said. Both electric motors turn the engine and for a quick start are driven at 1.2 times the current rated for continuous generating. "Before, overload [was] rare on aircraft. Here we do it every start," says Robert W. Guirl, the 787 program director in Rockford.
One motor is enough to start the engine under almost all conditions, but at a slower rate. And starters are often used for other tasks, such as motoring the engine for cleaning. Can an electric starter take this lengthy duty cycle?
Engineers are worried about cooling the starter at high torque and low rpm. The units are cooled by their own oil system. Cooling that oil with air or fuel is the job of the engine company, and may be an issue.
If the APU doesn't work, a 90-kva. ground cart doesn't supply enough electricity to start the engine. Two carts connected to different aircraft systems should work.
The primary power distribution system includes the motor controllers and is split among four large panels, two in the forward cargo bay and two in the aft bay. They weigh 1,000 lb. each and are liquid-cooled. Arcing is a greater concern with 540 VDC inside, but vulnerable items such as relays have been engineered. Hamilton Sundstrand is partnered with ECE Zodiac of France on this system.
The remote power distribution system takes electricity from main buses to utility loads. The technological change is that instead of having centralized switching boxes, the switches have migrated closer to the loads, resulting in fewer wires and less maintenance, says Luis Andrade, chief engineer for electronic products engineering in Rockford. The system uses convective instead of forced-air cooling, made possible by components that both reject less heat and can run hotter.
The 787 flight controls have some electrohydraulic actuators as well as three centrally powered 4,850-psi. systems. Those are also heavily electric--the left and right engine systems each have an electric motor pump (EMP) and engine-driven pump (EDP), and the central system has two EMPs. The same 27 gallons-per-minute (gpm.) pumps are used on both EDPs and EMPs, and that is four times more power than an electric pump previously would have had. "The EMPs would have been air-driven pumps before at Boeing," says Leslie L. Bevans, the emergency power principal engineer in Rockford.
The EMP is driven by a 100-kva., 88-hp. motor. The motor controller varies rpm. with load so less use is made of the pump's variable displacement controls.
The company is building a new 12,000-sq.-ft. Aircraft Power System Integration Facility (APSIF) in Rockford for the 787, to be ready for operation in May 2006. Starter/generator prototypes are now being tested in the adjacent Integrated Systems Laboratory (ISL) on a 500-hp. dynamometer. That simulates enough engine load to test one starter at full capacity, but can take two starters only to 70-80% capacity. It can run them in either the starter or generator role. The ISL will receive a 1,500-hp. dyno to run two units to full capacity, and another 500-hp. dyno to simulate a 787 APU.
In an integrated test, the dyno has driven generators connected to two motor controllers supplying power to cabin compressor and hydraulic pump motors.
The APSIF floor plan is roughly like a 787 and will have a pair of 1,500-hp. dynos to simulate the engines and a real APU in a container outside where the tail would be. A number of real components--such as power distribution panels, cabin compressors, electrically driven hydraulic pumps, fans and avionics--will be in the facility. They will be connected by cables of the proper length and location, and, to further simulate impedances, they will be placed adjacent to a representative of the current return framework Boeing will use inside the composite structure. This will test electrical system dynamics with real loads and sources. Since most high-power switching is done with solid-state devices instead of relays, the switching is less abrupt and there should be less oscillatory "ringing" in the system.

[eb220]

The generators are now large enough to be used backwards as engine starters, a task exclusively performed on large turbofans by much lighter pneumatic motors.

This is nothing really new. BAE Strikemasters (I used to work on the Mk88's) used starter/generators. Yes, smaller engines, but not "new tech".

[JDNSW]

This is nothing really new. BAE Strikemasters (I used to work on the Mk88's) used starter/generators. Yes, smaller engines, but not "new tech".

No, definitely not new tech - not uncommon on cars in the early twenties - bullnose Morris Cowley for example. But there is a big difference between any strike aircraft's engines and airliner engines, apart from size.

John

[buzz66]

What is interesting, is the use of Electric Motors to run big blowers for Cabin pressurization instead of using bleed air from the engine compressor.

Wouldn't have thought the increase in efficiency would be enough to counter act the extra weight and design expense.


Having said that Americans are not known for there efficiency, maybe they have there figures wrong.

[muddymech]

What is interesting, is the use of Electric Motors to run big blowers for Cabin pressurization instead of using bleed air from the engine compressor.

Wouldn't have thought the increase in efficiency would be enough to counter act the extra weight and design expense.


Having said that Americans are not known for there efficiency, maybe they have there figures wrong.


thats what i thought but remember the reduced weight of pipes to carry the air, valves, compressors, heat excgnahger and the air con packs them selves,plus the loss of air off the engines will allow them to run more efficently.

personally my biggest concern is the use of the coolant, ie how toxic is it to user and environment as it will leak at some point between now and its out of service date.

i think the concept is great and for boeing to givce it a go says something anout the technology and belif in it, as boeing is a very conservative company when it comes to useing high tech stuff on pax aircraft.

[muddymech]

This is nothing really new. BAE Strikemasters (I used to work on the Mk88's) used starter/generators. Yes, smaller engines, but not "new tech".


i think its more that they have been developed enough to be more fuel effiecnt way of starting an engine than bleed air, rather than the use of the idea.
will have big benifits to fuel burn if engines are allowed to be started on stand, cutting down on apu use.
guess most ground power systems will have to be upgraded, we currently have 120kva ground power, most a380 units that i have seen are 180kva, not sure if that be enough for engine starting a large by pass engine with the new electric starters.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is a brand spakers 777 freighter. I don't get what all the taxiing about is... but at 2:30 he guns the thing and does a high power low weight take off. :) 25 seconds after giving it the berries and all wheels are in the air!

YouTube - FEDEX N850FD

Contrast that with this 747 taking nearly 50!

YouTube - Boeing 747 takeoff from San Francisco International

[Lionel]

Contrast that with this 747 taking nearly 50!



I was in a 747-400 at LHR en route to Singapore, and our take-off roll standstill to VR was 52 secs. (I know I'm a little overweight! :) )

Cheers,

Lionel

[Leo]

Depends how much load the 777 is carrying, Fed Ex's operating procedures (full power take offs or not) etc.

[BBC]

A mate gave me the following photos of an air transport problem in Accra that happened last year. It is a transport plane that was being loaded. The palletized cargo on rollers reached tipping point, came loose and the whole load shifted to the rear, with the following results:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/456.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/457.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/458.jpg

Ooops! Always someone around with a camera when you stuff up.

[BBC]

I hope it can be said that I have had something to do with aviation....06 - 08 I had rebuilt and maintained the dirt airstrip servicing the military base at Tarin Kowt, Uruzgan Province, Afghanistan.

Also managed a contract on a Russian Mi26 flying logistics in and out of the province...an interesting period of my life.

I ran into a professional photographer, Sjoerd Hilckmann, over there. He was engaged by the Dutch government to make a pictorial account of the operations there. I met him due to the fact he wanted to photograph my helicopter...and....scab a ride in it. He gave me a host of really great quality photos to download.

All these photos have been taken between Tarin Kowt, Kandahar, and one in Kabul...enjoy Sjoerd's photos...of my backyard:

A C17 having unloaded on the TK airstrip at what we call Thr30...the top end:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/434.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/435.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/436.jpg

They are big 'mothers'.....six Bushmasters at a time...or two Abrams...or..I have seen 2 x Blackhawks loaded in one:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/437.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/438.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/439.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/440.jpg

A Dutch Apache flying relatively high over Uruzgan...there is another one close at hand...they only fly in 2's.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/441.jpg

This is a C130 coming in hard and low, flying tactically on it's landing approach on TK:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/442.jpg

Apaches making approaches on the weapons range at TK:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/443.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/444.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/445.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/446.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/447.jpg

The 'business end' of an Apache. These shots were taken on the rotary wing ramp down at Kandahar:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/448.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/449.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/450.jpg

A Dutch C130 landing on my airstrip:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/451.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/452.jpg

There is a more comprehensive collection of photos and accompanying story across on my thread 'Employment Opportunities'. Just thought these were appropriate here.

[BBC]

A C17 from the USAF Air Mobility Command landing on the airstrip I maintain at Tarin Kowt. This is the only dirt strip in the world that currently has C17's landing on it:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/430.jpg

C17's taking off. 200tonne of Aircraft, capable of carrying 200tonne....powerful.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/431.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/432.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/433.jpg

[Captain_Rightfoot]

In case anyone has been living under a rock today :)

787 maiden flight. (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/15/336230/boeing-completes-787-maiden-sortie.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/749.jpg

[Sleepy]

I love the way the wings curl up when airborne.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I love the way the wings curl up when airborne.

It reminds me of the gliders I used to guide. I seriously think it is the best looking airliner this side of the Electra. :)

I'll be waiting a little until I line up to fly on one though :o

[paulthepilot_5]

Mmmmmmmmm blended and raked wing tips!
Boeing really seem to be able to pull off a good overall package and make it look great. None of this whale shaped ugly guppy Airbus rubbish :p

[juddy]

Spanish pilot Ignacio Lombo gives a thumbs up from the cabin of the European military transport Airbus A400M, after landing at San Pablo aerodrome in Seville, southern Spain, 11 December 2009, following the maiden flight. The plane, built by European EADS, is part of a 20 billion euro project threatened by soaring costs after a two-year development delay. After running its four TP400-D6 turboprop engines for several minutes, the A400M taxied towards the runway and took off. On board the plane travelled captains Ignacio Lombo of Spain and Edward Strongman of the UK and four French engineers

What a waste of Money, what could they have bought and have been using, instead of wasting money on this...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/707.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/708.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/709.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/710.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/711.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/712.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/713.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/714.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/715.jpg

[Captain_Rightfoot]

YouTube- Vulcan XH558 Survival Appeal

[clean32]

YouTube- Vulcan XH558 Survival Appeal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAW5zZser4&feature=player_embedded)

Brilliant, I was in argiland and like most of us who were BEL thought we were just wasting our time. It was very hard to hide our elation in amongst the locals shock when the BBC announced the Vulcan’s had hit the runway. I still go a bit goo goo over it.

[Frenchie]

Brilliant, I was in argiland and like most of us who were BEL thought we were just wasting our time. It was very hard to hide our elation in amongst the locals shock when the BBC announced the Vulcan’s had hit the runway. I still go a bit goo goo over it.

I bought a DVD of the Vulcan with footage taken at various airshows including from the cockpit from here:

www.planestv.com (http://www.planestv.com)

:cool:

[87County]

YouTube- Vulcan XH558 Survival Appeal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAW5zZser4&feature=player_embedded)

Unfortunately it's just so expensive to keep such aircraft going, that the "party" they refer to in the pleading videowill be over one day, and I don't know if it's going to be in 2 years or 20 years time, but they can't keep them in the air forever.

these dedicated enthusiasts, like the Lowys here, put huge effort and expenditure into keep these things airborne, but as far as requesting donations goes, I'd rather donate to help people live, not to keep aeroplanes alive that should be in a museum.

[clean32]

Unfortunately it's just so expensive to keep such aircraft going, that the "party" they refer to in the pleading videowill be over one day, and I don't know if it's going to be in 2 years or 20 years time, but they can't keep them in the air forever.

these dedicated enthusiasts, like the Lowys here, put huge effort and expenditure into keep these things airborne, but as far as requesting donations goes, I'd rather donate to help people live, not to keep aeroplanes alive that should be in a museum.

just like all series 1 & 2 Landrovers aye

[87County]

just like all series 1 & 2 Landrovers aye

Not quite .....

If something critical breaks when you are driving an older vehicle at around 70km/hr there's a good chance that you will pull up unscathed.....however..

if something critical breaks on an old warbird when you are doing around 200 kts at any altitude you would be very lucky to survive

[clean32]

Not quite .....

If something critical breaks when you are driving an older vehicle at around 70km/hr there's a good chance that you will pull up unscathed.....however..

if something critical breaks on an old warbird when you are doing around 200 kts at any altitude you would be very lucky to survive

well that’s why they are so expensive to keep in the air, rebuilt, inspected, tested and with the post WW2 stuff there are back up systems/ manual over hydraulic for example.

Cant say that for a rebuilt series

[VladTepes]

frenchie - which do you reckon would be the pick of those dvd.s ?



I am an aviation nut / fan / whatever and have a special soft spot for:
- Anything de-Havilland
- anything with a big delta wing
- the V-bombers (or at least the Vulcan and the Handley Page Victor)

YouTube- Handley Page Victor Very Low Pass

and, oh, ok a big heap of others....
:banana:



This is privately owned, and sponsored by red bull (or at least it was). The owner has two flying ones (or at least did).

YouTube- SEA VIXEN

YouTube- Red Bull Sea Vixen

[VladTepes]

Did you know that the first Vulcan to ever visit Australia (the first delivered to the RAF at that) crashed on its return to England? While the pilots ejected safely, the 4 rear crew were killed.


YouTube- Round-The-World Vulcan crashes

[juddy]

Lets hope they get some more funds
or the vulcan may never fly again after next month

[DeanoH]

frenchie -

I am an aviation nut / fan / whatever and have a special soft spot for:
- Anything de-Havilland.................



A couple of years ago (2008) flew out to the Horizontal waterfalls from Derby (WA).
I was quite suprised to find this old Beaver not only flying, but still certified to carry paying passengers. A minimum of 40 years old if it's a day.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1112.jpg

Certainly a mixture of the old and the new at Derby.

1. De Havilland Beaver
2. Gippsland Aviation GA8 with cargo pod
3. Cessna 206 ?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1113.jpg

Though we flew out to the Horizontal falls in this, pilot "Mal" was an ex-Vietnam era pilot and very professional.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1114.jpg

Cessna Caravan Seaplane.

The floats are a bit like icebergs, 2/3 under the water. Must make it hard to take off with all that drag. Remember a bloke I used to work with was a engineer in the RAAF during WWII said they had strap on "rockets" which they could use to help take off. No turbo props in those days I suppose.

Deano

[clean32]

Did you know that the first Vulcan to ever visit Australia (the first delivered to the RAF at that) crashed on its return to England? While the pilots ejected safely, the 4 rear crew were killed.


YouTube- Round-The-World Vulcan crashes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQzklZdhpjw&feature=channel)

I would have been a Kid of about 5 years old, when the Vulcan over flew Nelson airport ( NZ) at there annual air show. I was amazed then and am still amazed today with that aircraft

[JDNSW]

A couple of years ago (2008) flew out to the Horizontal waterfalls from Derby (WA).
I was quite suprised to find this old Beaver not only flying, but still certified to carry paying passengers. A minimum of 40 years old if it's a day.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1112.jpg

Certainly a mixture of the old and the new at Derby.

1. De Havilland Beaver
2. Gippsland Aviation GA8 with cargo pod
3. Cessna 206 ?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1113.jpg

Though we flew out to the Horizontal falls in this, pilot "Mal" was an ex-Vietnam era pilot and very professional.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1114.jpg

Cessna Caravan Seaplane.

The floats are a bit like icebergs, 2/3 under the water. Must make it hard to take off with all that drag. Remember a bloke I used to work with was a engineer in the RAAF during WWII said they had strap on "rockets" which they could use to help take off. No turbo props in those days I suppose.

Deano

Not a Cessna 206, a Cessna 210. The 206 is fixed gear and has wing struts.

The 210 is a fast, economical plane with a good payload, but takes a bit of care flying - in particular, the margin between normal cruise and VNE is quite small, and the margin between normal cruise and flap extension speed or gear extension speed is quite large. And since they are quite slippery, this means good planning for descent to avoid excess speed and overcooling the engine, since unlike, for example, the Beech A36 (a direct competitor) you can't use gear extension as an airbrake to get a steeper descent.

John

[p38arover]

I saw Beavers working out of Vancouver harbour last year. I took a flight in a turbo Otter.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/655.jpg

[HUE166]

Not a Cessna 206, a Cessna 210. The 206 is fixed gear and has wing struts.


The 210 is a fast, economical plane with a good payload, but takes a bit of care flying - in particular, the margin between normal cruise and VNE is quite small, and the margin between normal cruise and flap extension speed or gear extension speed is quite large. And since they are quite slippery, this means good planning for descent to avoid excess speed and overcooling the engine, since unlike, for example, the Beech A36 (a direct competitor) you can't use gear extension as an airbrake to get a steeper descent.

John

Not a C210 either. The plane on the right, VH-JYH, is a Cessna C177 Cardinal. A very underpowered but economical 4 seat aircraft.

Unfortunately these guys had a misshap with one of their beavers last year. VH-IDO was landed near the falls on the water with the landing gear extended and it flipped on touchdown. Very expensive and very embarrassing. Thankfully nobody was injured. VH-IMU was flown for the recent tourist season by a Canadian Pilot, Gordon Williams, who is one of the nicest and most interesting fellows you could wish to chat to. I dare say Gordon has also flown those Beavers out of Vancouver.

VH-IDO was an ex-Super Spread (originally of Moorabin) Beaver that spent many thousands of hours spreading supephosphate around Victoria and Southern NSW and also sowing rice in the Riverina. The Beaver would have to be one of the great "Classic" aircraft still flying today.

I was flying out of Derby and Broome beside these guys during August - October last year before the heat set in!!

[JDNSW]

Not a C210 either. The plane on the right, VH-JYH, is a Cessna C177 Cardinal. A very underpowered but economical 4 seat aircraft.
...........

Oops! Didn't even think of them. I'm slightly surprised that there are any still about.

The 177 was produced from 1968-78, but while it was introduced as a 172 replacement, it had handling problems compared to the 172 (soon improved by modifications to the stabilator), cost more to build, and always sold less than the 172, which was introduced in 1956 to supplement the conventional undercarriage 170, and is still in production, having delivered over 43,000, almost certainly the most successful aircraft ever designed.

John

[HUE166]

I Hope I don't sound like a smarty pants in that last post. You just struck a cord with my recent past John!! I hope you enjoyed your trip.

I'm a bit of a flying nut too!!

Cheers,

Rohan.

[JDNSW]

I Hope I don't sound like a smarty pants in that last post. You just struck a cord with my recent past John!! I hope you enjoyed your trip.

I'm a bit of a flying nut too!!

Cheers,

Rohan.

No worries, thanks for correcting an error. I don't know that I am "a bit of a flying nut" but I have long had an interest in aircraft and flying - started my private licence in 1966 while working in the Simpson Desert, bought an Auster the next year, replacing it with a Cessna 180 when I moved to PNG in 1969. After I returned to Australia and was living in Melbourne, I sold the Cessna as it was easy to hire aircraft (mostly flew C210 and Beech A36). I find that I cannot afford to fly these days, and consequently do not have a current medical. But I still maintain an interest.

John

[HUE166]

No worries, thanks for correcting an error. I don't know that I am "a bit of a flying nut" but I have long had an interest in aircraft and flying - started my private licence in 1966 while working in the Simpson Desert, bought an Auster the next year, replacing it with a Cessna 180 when I moved to PNG in 1969. After I returned to Australia and was living in Melbourne, I sold the Cessna as it was easy to hire aircraft (mostly flew C210 and Beech A36). I find that I cannot afford to fly these days, and consequently do not have a current medical. But I still maintain an interest.

John
John, as an Ag Pilot I very much envy you for the C180. That would be my perfect personal aircraft. You have seen a great deal of the practicle years of aviation although I would have to agree that private aviation is now far too expensive. I just can't get interested in the ultralight scene so I just fly professionally to get my flying fix. I'm at Marble Bar at the moment on a survey contract and wish I wasn't. It's so bloody HOT up here.

A syndicate might be an option for you John?

Rohan.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I utterly loved gliding. I think it's still affordable. If I was going flying again it would be the first place I'd look to. I do realise that "affordable" is a relative term, so when I say that I mean compared to other forms of aviation. :)

[DeanoH]

Was a passenger on the final flight (front RH seat) of this aircraft in the early 1970's. It's a Beechcraft Musketeer of Cambell-Hicks Airways, a charter company out of Moorabbin at the time.
Came to grief on take-off from Kilecrankie landing strip, Flinders Island in Bass Strait. At a guess 1973 or 1974. Short story was 20 Knot headwind at take-off, dropped to zero when at about 50' altitude. Only one way to go and it wasn't up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/129.jpg

Pilot did a good job, only damage was to his pride and the three passengers jocks.

Deano

[HUE166]

I've done a bit out of the Kilecrankie strip. There's a Baron planted on the rock face to the North West where a fellow came to grief under suspicious circumstances. The wreck is still hanging off th rock face. I had a wonderful but sobering time down there. We had to try to profile Mt Stezleki and te accosiated razor back range. Very nervy stuff. Flinders Island is fantastic. It would also make a terrific 4WD trip once ferried across from Melbourne. That's worth looking into!

[JDNSW]

John, as an Ag Pilot I very much envy you for the C180. That would be my perfect personal aircraft. You have seen a great deal of the practicle years of aviation although I would have to agree that private aviation is now far too expensive. I just can't get interested in the ultralight scene so I just fly professionally to get my flying fix. I'm at Marble Bar at the moment on a survey contract and wish I wasn't. It's so bloody HOT up here.

A syndicate might be an option for you John?

Rohan.

Problem with a syndicate is I live 60km out of a smallish country town! Although I am a member of the local aero club, I never get to anything they run.

John

[JDNSW]

Was a passenger on the final flight (front RH seat) of this aircraft in the early 1970's. It's a Beechcraft Musketeer of Cambell-Hicks Airways, a charter company out of Moorabbin at the time.
Came to grief on take-off from Kilecrankie landing strip, Flinders Island in Bass Strait. At a guess 1973 or 1974. Short story was 20 Knot headwind at take-off, dropped to zero when at about 50' altitude. Only one way to go and it wasn't up.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/129.jpg

Pilot did a good job, only damage was to his pride and the three passengers jocks.

Deano

Around that time I flew a Cherokee Six load of work colleagues to Flinders I for the weekend. Did not use the Killiecrankie strip though, but did visit there by car. The FI weather is very interesting, with the prevailing strong westerlies giving all sorts of interesting effects due to orographic uplift as they go over the mountains.

John

[p38arover]

I remember back in 1968, when I was working in Moree, the Moree Flying Club was selling a Piper Colt. The sale included lessons.

Elisabeth wasn't keen.

I wouldn't mind a Victa AirTourer and saw this website recently. Airtourer 115 VH_MUF for sale Australia (http://www.victa.accesspoint.net.au/)

[JDNSW]

I remember back in 1968, when I was working in Moree, the Moree Flying Club was selling a Piper Colt. The sale included lessons.

Elisabeth wasn't keen.

I wouldn't mind a Victa AirTourer and saw this website recently. Airtourer 115 VH_MUF for sale Australia (http://www.victa.accesspoint.net.au/)

I have a soft spot for them, as I learnt to fly in one. Like driving a sports car compared to any other plane I have flown, except possibly the Bellanca Decathalon or the Tiger Moth, both of which though are quite different.

John

[DeanoH]

..................................I wouldn't mind a Victa AirTourer ..............

Was'nt Victa an Autralian company that couldn't get start up finance to build here so went to NZ instead? Our loss NZ's gain.

Deano

[p38arover]

Quite a few were built here at Milperra, IIRC, before they went to NZ.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is a photo of the plane I predominately learnt to fly on. And ASK-13 although there were other stars in the process like a Slingsby t-53b which were character building :o

[JDNSW]

Was'nt Victa an Autralian company that couldn't get start up finance to build here so went to NZ instead? Our loss NZ's gain.

Deano

Not quite - they are an Australian lawnmower company that decided to get into aviation. They took the winning design of a competition run by, I think, the RVAC, for a training aircraft, the Millicer Airtourer, and converted it to all metal construction. It went into production in the late fifties, I think, initially with 100hp, later with 115hp, and was quite successful.

In the mid sixties they attempted unsuccessfully to get protection against a flood of Cessna 150 imports. They had started on a four seat version, and also an Airtourer with 150hp and constant speed prop. The former was certified but none produced, the latter went into production.

Following failure to get protection, Victa sold the whole business to AESL in NZ. They commenced manufacture of the Airtourer in 115 and 150hp versions, and redesigned the four seater as a two seat military basic trainer, which went into production as the Airtrainer, with the major customer being the RAAF, although it was also sold to several other customers, I think including the RNZAF and Malaysia. Following the completion of the military contracts, civil sales proved to be fairly thin and the company eventually foundered. The Airtourer Owners Association I believe bought the tooling and manufacturing rights from the receivers.

The Airtourer is unusual for a modern training aircraft in that it is aerobatic. Also unusual is the high wing loading, which is achievable by having full span flaps - conventional flaps plus drooping ailerons plus a split flap under the fuselage. All flying controls are operated by push-pull rods rather than cables for no lost motion or spring. Also unusual is the sliding canopy and the use of a single control column between the seats with two throttles/pitch controls, at each side of the instrument panel. Flaps are manual by a lever on the left wall of the cockpit. Seats are fixed, with adjustable pedals. There are no toe brakes, braking being by a handle at each side of the panel. The lack of differential braking is not noticed - the nosewheel steering has a link to the rudder pedals.

John

[VladTepes]

I saw Beavers working out of Vancouver harbour last year. I took a flight in a turbo Otter.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/655.jpg

When we were there on a tour we had the option of
a) a seaplane flight in a Beaver.
b) a ride in a horse and cart.

I kid you not the damn wife chose the horse and cart...

Grrrrrrrrrr.

I'm still peeved !

[p38arover]

When we were there on a tour we had the option of
a) a seaplane flight in a Beaver.
b) a ride in a horse and cart.

I kid you not the damn wife chose the horse and cart...

Grrrrrrrrrr.

I'm still peeved !

Surely you jest! :eek:

I did a flight out over the mountains which still had a lot of snow and where some lakes were still frozen.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

When we were there on a tour we had the option of
a) a seaplane flight in a Beaver.
b) a ride in a horse and cart.

I kid you not the damn wife chose the horse and cart...

Grrrrrrrrrr.

I'm still peeved !

Your missus would rather go for a ride in a horse and cart rather than get into the beaver? Bizarre !!??

In other news I was looking for video of the Qantas A330-200 landing with the gear doors out... and I found this... which I think was much more interesting :) That's damn good flying...

YouTube- Crosswind Landing - by Qantas Airbus A330-300 【VH-QPG】

[VladTepes]

Nice flying.

I saw a ripper of a cross wind landing at Brisbane Airport by a Thai MD-11. Came in at about 30 degrees to the axis of Runway 19., kicked it aroundon teh rudder at the VERY last minute - plenty of tyre smoke. Good stuff.

... of course if hadn't turned he would have collided with a LARGE tank of avtur !

[JDNSW]

Reminds me of a 737 I saw landing at Canberra one day which looked as if he was about to hit the ground with his wingtip - bad crosswind.

John

[VladTepes]

These blokes deliberately chose the cross runway to try a cross wind landing !

YouTube- Airbus A380 Crosswind Landing

(don't bother watching rest of the video after the landing it's boring-ish)

[VladTepes]

might be time for new undies if you were pax in this one:

YouTube- Top Ten Crosswind Landing Hong Kong Kai Tak Airport 1998 Japan Airlines Boeing 747

[Captain_Rightfoot]

How cool would this be? :)

YouTube- Passed by a 787 on final

[JDNSW]

How cool would this be? :)


Caution, wake turbulence!

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Don't check in dead people! (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flight-international/2010/04/update-on-easyjet-and-the-chec.html)

Jarant and her daughter were arrested at Liverpool's John Lennon airport on Saturday suspected of failing to give notice of Willi's death. She told the paper the 91-year-old former pilot had died at the airport just before the flight.

"I'm not a smuggler," Jarant, 66, told Bild. "My Willi only died at the airport. He suddenly looked so lifeless, like a wax figure. His fingernails turned blue all of a sudden. At home he was still warm -- I swear!"

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This might interest you all too! (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/wings-down-under/2010/04/photos-of-wheel-and-tyre-damage-to-qantas-a380.html)

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/wings-down-under/assets_c/2010/04/IMG_6807-thumb-560x746-70584.jpg