IRD or not IRD? Oil leak and noise.

[kahuna]

Hi. First post here :)

After some wild 4wd-ing (apart from smashed tailgate door :) ) i found transmission like noise and oil leak.
Noise has increased in a week to unbearable, stopped driving for now.
Oil is leaking from underneath clutch housing. First pic.

(RaveCD: "IRD DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION 41-3
Externally, three oil seals prevent lubricating oil escaping from the gearbox and the IRD unit. The gearbox gear case
houses the oil seal for the left-hand front driveshaft, and the RH housing on the IRD unit houses the oil seal for the
right-hand front driveshaft, with the remaining oil seal located in the pinion housing of the IRD.
There are also four internal oil seals in the IRD unit. Two smaller diameter oil seals are fitted internally at each end of
the primary shaft. These prevent oil ingress along the intermediate shaft from the IRD unit at the differential end. At
the opposite end, the seal prevents oil ingress from the gearbox along the intermediate shaft. Two larger oil seals are
fitted in the main casing where the IRD unit enters the gearbox. The inner oil seal prevents oil ingress from the IRD
primary shaft entering into the area between the two seals, and the outer oil seal prevents oil ingress from the gearbox
entering the same area.On the underside of the main casing is a 'tell-tale' drilling which is positioned between the inner and outer primary
shaft oil seals. Oil leakage from the drilling will indicate either a faulty inner or outer primary shaft oil seal.")

Also there another oiled area, although I haven't seen pools on the floor under it (image with filter)

After serious head scratching, I drove to known landrover specialists, guy did test drive, hoisted front, rear, tried to turn wheels by hand and said VCU and possibly IRD and/or rear diff. Booked 1hr diagnostics for friday $75. Is it worth doing, as they will not take off IRD, to identify leak source ?

I researched this forum, found that dead VCU kills IRD quickly.
I did VCU test and did it as follows: lift rear right wheel, hand brakes off, 1st gear in, mark VCU and propshafts with chalk, applied my weight on stock wheel nut spanner, trying to turn rear right wheel forward. To my surprise it did slowly turn.. VCU is OK then?

Removed VCU with both propeller shafts today, test drive was OK, no noise...

Things to check :
1. IRD output pinion and crown wheel - easy, will do tomorrow.
2. Crankshaft oil seals (left is easy, right is in clutch area..).
3. IRD bearings (dunno how, with removed propeller shafts).

Can it be high crankcase pressure (different reasons, piston rings, clogged breather or...) ? I haven't changed engine oil for 15 000 km, maybe that is the reason? Going to change now, or do it after the leak will be identified?

Cannot afford paying $1000 for new VCU + $1500 used IRD + labour..

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6926/pic00211u.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7512/pic00221d.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4558/pic00231.jpg

[kahuna]

Just found out I did the VCU test wrong.

Garrycol wrote:
The VC comprises two main components - a damper - ring about 2" wide and slightly larger diameter than the VC - the VC is about 6 or 7" in diameter and about the same long - chalk mark the VC and damper so the marks align and go for a drive - they should no longer line up. If they do line up - do the test again.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/freelander/65337-freelander-constant4x4.html#post832624

I saw wheel turning, marks rotated ~90deg, but BOTH parts of VCU. Need to refit VCU and propshafts and retest.
From ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk:
1) Jack up one rear wheel 2) put an 18" bar through the rear prop UJ and try to turn it. 3) it should turn slowly with resistance
Please note even a good one will be quite tight.

Another test:http://syncro.org/VCTest.html

[101RRS]

If you could turn the wheel - albiet slowly the VC is OK the chalk test is not needed when you lift the rear wheel off the ground and it turns.

Alternatively if you put a chalk mark on the UJ on the engine end of the VC and a chalk mark on the UJ on the diff end of the VC - aligned of course and take for a drive you can also test - if still aligned the VC is seized.

Other check is put car in reverse with steering on full lock and then back keeping on full lock - if there is no load on the engine or a load like the handbrake is on a little then the VC is OK. However if the engine labours or stalls or feels like the handbrake is on then you need to further investigate the VC.

A little binding is OK

Garry

[kahuna]

Quick update.

Removed IRD pinion housing - pinion, crown wheel and the one visible through refill hole - are OK, like new. Cannot check other bearings without taking off the IRD. Is it OK?

VCU. Checked again with two rods in CV joints, turned by two hands in opposite direction. Turns slowly and tightly. Rotation occurs where front CV joint enters VC. Is it OK?

I'm getting to think oil leaks through both crankshaft seals. Because oil is black, and oil is in both engine sides. Engine oil changed, will have a look. Still yet to check/change gearbox oil.

I'm a bit lost about noise. It definitely lower with propeller shafts remowed (2wd), but seems like still there, sound is barely heard but is similar to what it has been with propshafts.

Is it a god idea to jack one side up, remove F3 fuse (turn off TC) and start engine in 1st gear? I expect wheels to rotate in air and hunt for noise on running engine / transmission ?

[101RRS]

Your VC sounds OK as does your IRD - normally you will only have an IRD problem if you have a VC problem first.

The oil is most likely coming from the oil pump, filter, and leakage from the mainshaft seals. Unless it is a major issue I would not worry about it as it would be a huge job to replace these seals.

As far`the noise is concerned - anyones guess - mine makes heaps of strange noises and can chatter from the drive train -most noticeable when I am driving through an enclosed area - however these noises have been there since I have had the car.

If you want to test with wheels off the ground - lift the whole car up on jack stands but I doubt you will be successful in finding anything this day - maybe find even more noises that are of no consequence and just get worried about these.

If the noise is in the tailshaft - I would be looking at the three ujs, and the two VC bearings. Also check the front rubber mount for the rear diff - these cut out very quickly and you could have metal on metal contact that is transferring drive train noise to the body - making it much louder than normal.

Garry

[kahuna]

I'm still in doubt about VC... I've seen another trustable forum reply that normal VC rotates dumper against VC body (the two big cylinders that make VC Unit, rotate one against another).

I need to sort it out now, so, who have a good VCU, please to a simple test pls. Put chalk marks on dumper and VC, do a reverse with steerening on full lock (doesn't matter left or right) for ~ 5-10 meters, then have a look, are the marks on dumper and VC still point to each other.

Regarding rear stuff

If the noise is in the tailshaft - I would be looking at the three ujs, and the two VC bearings. Also check the front rubber mount for the rear diff - these cut out very quickly and you could have metal on metal contact that is transferring drive train noise to the body - making it much louder than normal.
Remind you, I have VC and propshafts off for now :) Rubber mount is dead, already bought new for $35, waiting to sort out things, then fit with props.

Guys, somebody, do that VC test for me...

[Jof]

Hi Kahuna,

I'm with Garry that your VCU is ok.
Sorry I can't do the test, VCU is in the garage (stuffed). When I did do the reverse full lock test I had to use plenty of revs to stop it from stalling (diesel engine too) and I heard loud clicking sounds from the drivetrain.
If you can turn both UJs by hand with it off the car it can't be locked.

By the look of your photos it isn't IRD oil, the colour is wrong as is the location, it looks like engine oil.
You can easily drain the IRD oil into a 1L milk carton and see how much comes out, it should be about 1L. It's probably a good idea to change the oil anyway, and you can check how much crap is on the magnetic plug while your at it. (gives you a rough idea of the condition of the IRD)

Sorry can't be more help

[kahuna]

Thanks. Forgot to say that I did changed IRD oil, it was of normal colour, and some filing on a drain plug magnet - not much.

[101RRS]

When I did do the reverse full lock test I had to use plenty of revs to stop it from stalling (diesel engine too) and I heard loud clicking sounds from the drivetrain.


That clicking was most likely from the front outer CVs - even good ones will click on full lock. Mine have clicked for the last 100,000km and still have no issues.

Garry

[101RRS]

I'm still in doubt about VC... I've seen another trustable forum reply that normal VC rotates dumper against VC body (the two big cylinders that make VC Unit, rotate one against another).

I need to sort it out now, so, who have a good VCU, please to a simple test pls. Put chalk marks on dumper and VC, do a reverse with steerening on full lock (doesn't matter left or right) for ~ 5-10 meters, then have a look, are the marks on dumper and VC still point to each other.


I think you are starting to look for issues that are not there - the oil leak is coming from the engine.

If you still have concerns about the VC - the best test is to get a socket that will fit on the hub nut on the rear wheel.

Put the car on an level surface, put in first gear, release the hand brake. Jack up the drivers rear wheel and either remove the wheel or the small centre cap in the wheel and put the socket onto the hub nut with a long breaker bar. Take up the slack in the drive train and then apply a steady heavy pressure to the breaker bar in a clockwise direction - apply steady pressure as the test will not work if you jerk at it. As the pressure is applied the wheel or hub should start to turn very slowly - you will only be able to rotate the wheel or hub a little. If there is no rotation the VC is not serviceable.

An easier test is to mark the front drive shaft and the rear drive shaft with aligned chalk marks - go for a drive that includes a couple of tight turns and if the chalk marks still align the VC has not slipped and is not serviceable. Don't worry about marks on the damper etc.

The backing test on wheel lock is an easy test to just indicate there may be an issue - it is not definitive like the others. You should do the test or get someone local to do it.

Looking back at your original post - what FL do you have? Also you indicated the issues started after heavy 4wding - I would suggest the oil leaks were already there and only noticed when you looked for the noise. As the noise only started it is reasonable to assume you hit something when offroad - the soft areas are the sump - not an issue. The other soft spot is the VC - specifically the mountings - has something been damaged there that is now causing an alignment problem.

Sorry - I am not able to offer much more in the way of advise.
Cheers

Garry

[kahuna]

Thanks Garry.

I have a Freelander XEI 1.8 petrol 2000yr. Bought almost 2 years ago for $11k from dealer (overpaid?). First thing was clutch hydraulic system - dealer replaced it. Second - HGF. Graeme Cooprs refused to change gasket only ($2K) they wanted bores mashined as well (+$4k). Understood that they wanted all done properly to give a warranty, but they did not even seen the liners, did they dropped or are still OK... Had no choice but to DIY (never did it before, only spark plugs :))

According VCU, I think VCU is OK too, but still would like it to be confirmed is the damper rotates against VC or they rotate together.

I washed engine, tightened oil pump bolts, leak near oil filter seems to be gone. For main leak, I also tightened sump bolts (one of them sits deep) will know tomorrow.

Noise is more heard at ~20km/h with clutch depressed, when slowing down. Kind of whoomwhoom. Sounds like gears, bearings or the like. BTW, changed gearbox oil, it came out dark... used Castrol VMX 80 for refill.

Question. I jacked one front wheel, there is a slack of about 15 degrees when I rotate the wheel, is it OK or there should be no slack in front diff?

You wrote here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/21846-gearbox-mainshaft-wear.html:
The drive train is starting to get a bit slack which I am assuming is the early stages of the above problem - just noticeable but not a major problem yet. Clearly I can simply get the Transfer Case Input gear drilled as described and that will stabilise the drivetrain slack.
In particular I have followed the thread at http://www.aulro.com/modules.php?name=Foru...iewtopic&t=1281

The link is not working, so what is that drilling about?

[101RRS]

I must admit that once I thought the damper did move separate to the VCU but I now do not know and no one seems to know. But it doesn't matter, as aligned marks on the front shaft and rear shafts will do - remember opinions are given on these forums - take everything with caution. The rear wheel test is the best test to do - yes there is slack in the drive train that has to be taken up first before the pressure of the VC is felt - as said it is hard to turn the VC - heavy steady pressure with a breaker bar on the socket is required. If the wheel slowly turns the VC is OK.

That link to an earlier post of mine concerns the gears that join the gearbox to the transfer case in a V8 Discovery not a Freelander - at the time I was driving one - again a design problem in a Land Rover product. Oil does not get to the splines and drilling the cog allows oil to get to the splines.

Garry

[kahuna]

Yes, but the question was not about VCU and propshafts. I'm talking now about front diff inside IRD and gearbox. The slack i see is on the front wheels. Question is what slack is normal. I have is around 15 degrees of rotation...

[101RRS]

This may be of interest http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/82406-testing-freelander-vcu.html#post1008838

As far as the amount of slack on the front wheels - I have no idea but 15 degrees does not sound too bad.

Garry

[kahuna]

This may be of interest http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/82406-testing-freelander-vcu.html#post1008838

As far as the amount of slack on the front wheels - I have no idea but 15 degrees does not sound too bad.

Garry

Cool :) You do things seriously I see :)
Having done that, did you checked if damper rotates against VC or they rotate together?

And I think it is not so simple as OK / Not OK. Silicon liquid inside can loose its specs gradually, increasing resistance over time, so it is hart to tell at which point it becomes Not OK...

[101RRS]

And I think it is not so simple as OK / Not OK. Silicon liquid inside can loose its specs gradually, increasing resistance over time, so it is hart to tell at which point it becomes Not OK...

Spot on, that is why I test mine every 5000km and constantly look at the indicators of weird tyre wear on the rear tyres and binding in the transmission when reversing - I had this today so did a quick test to make sure all is OK.

I haven't bothered chasing the issue of the damper as it is not relevant to testing.

Garry

[hugh]

It would appear to me that the basic fault of the freelanders
transmisson is the silicone fluid which is in the vcu?

[kahuna]

It would appear to me that the basic fault of the freelanders
transmisson is the silicone fluid which is in the vcu?

No, it is the transmission design, where rear diff has lower ratio then front, so VCU is always under load. Good idea but wrong ratio difference. As a result VCU goes dead in ~100k. As there are no signs of it happening, in a short time it kills IRD.

There is a rumours that this applies to IRDs up to 2000, and ones after 2000 have lower ratio to prevent this. Could not confirm this so far.

[hugh]

I see your point kahuna,the ratios are over working the vcu causing
the vcu to lock up and the fluid inside breaks down.So the life span
of the vcu is greatly reduced. It would be great if a more affordable
fix could be found.
thanks

[Junosi]

There is a rumours that this applies to IRDs up to 2000, and ones after 2000 have lower ratio to prevent this. Could not confirm this so far.

The original IRDs drove the rear wheels ~0.9% slower whereas the newer IRDs drive them ~0.3% slower. Doesn't sound like much difference but it makes all the world of difference on VCU stress and failure. They changed IRDs sometime during 2000, but sadly there's no easy way to tell which one you've got simply by looking at it. From different things I've been reading it sounds like Land Rover decided on the original 0.9% difference to make the Freelander a more capable offroader, they should of opted for the more general appeal of the 0.3% difference as it turns out.

Clark