Inverter stick welders - advice wanted

[lane]

Hi all,

I've used stick welders of various quality over the years and have decided to upgrade. I considered a MIG but I don't do enough welding to justify the gas bottle rental etc., so I'm thinking an inverter ARC welder is probably the go.

Can anybody offer guidance on size/capacity, brands, and value for money?

a) How big for a home workshop welding sheet metal up to 5mm plate?
b) Brands which are reputable?
c) Best value for money out there at the moment?

Any other considerations that occur to knowledgeable people would be welcome. I have 3-phase power in the shed.

Thanks.

Lane.

[spudboy]

I am no expert (just a farmer) but for 5mm steel, you will not need 3 phase.

You might need a 15A power socket though, depending upon how many amps you go up to.

I've got a BOC. Not the cheapest but full supply of parts.

They weld much nicer than the old fashioned stick welders. The newer electronics seem to make it easier to strike and make an even bead than the old transformer type welders.

[d@rk51d3]

Just bought a 200 AMP inverter Stick, Mig, Scratch TIG welder from Tokentools.

The owner set up a fabrication/machining shop years ago, and was horrified at the cost of brand name welding equipment.

He now has his own designs, manufactured to his specs, in a single, ISO certified factory in China, using toshiba parts. Ships them back to Oz, and sells them at a good price, with 3 year warranty.

Apparently has had NO failures/returns , with only a 0.5% component failure at manufacture. He even offers a 30 day money back guarantee. If you don't like the welder.............. send it back.

For just a plain stick welder, the miniarc142 got rave reviews, at a cost of $465.00 outperformed other comparable stick welders that cost up to $1000.00

Won't hurt to check them out.

[Chucaro]

I agree with the previous comments
The welders from Token tools are very good.
200 amps are more than enough for 5 mm welding.
Look for the duty cycle of the welders, as an example 200 amps at 30%.
Have a look THIS (http://tokentools.com.au/category2_1.htm) model

[langy]

I've got this:

Dandy Gas (http://dandygas.com.au/products/cat/Weldskill170)

and it will do thick plate no probs. The only drawback I can think of when comparing the 170 vs the 130 is the plug - it's 15amp (Bigger earth blade) but then I've got access to 15amp outlets.

The advantage is that the 170 will do 85amp @ 100%. So you can do decent runs on heavy stuff.

Hell of a difference - inverter the size of a handbag vs a monster transformer. And it's true that the inverter makes stick welding easier.

[d@rk51d3]

I agree with the previous comments
The welders from Token tools are very good.
200 amps are more than enough for 5 mm welding.
Look for the duty cycle of the welders, as an example 200 amps at 30%.
Have a look THIS (http://tokentools.com.au/category2_1.htm) model

I was tempted to get that one, but I went for the simplicity of MIG, and I scored it for about a grand.


Also of note:

Alot of cheaper units I've seen have a minimum Amp setting of 50 amps, often with a high/low toggle. A little too high for welding thin sheet. You want to be able to wind it back to about 30 Amps or lower for those jobs.

[lane]

Great feedback guys, exactly what I wanted. :)

[bblaze]

Given that you have 3 phase power, If it as me and I was after bang for buck, I would buy a quality 3 phase power mig welder and run gasless wire. 3 phase quality migs come up cheap because most business buy new and most handy men dont have 3 phase power. You would end up with a versitile welder that you can grow with. Most welding supply places of good repute would have machine that they know of or maybe traded.
cheers
blaze

[crash]

When I was looking at the invertor welders one thing that attracted me to them was the ability of some to put a TIG attachment to. At the time about 8years ago I did not have the $1500.00 they wanted. I opted for a MIG instead.
On a different mix of things Lane you could run gas less wire in the MIG and forget about the bottles - that is what I do now, not as nice as running a MIG on gas but a hell of a lot cheaper than bottle rental.

[Psimpson7]

I'd agree with Crash and bblaze, and if you can justify it get a MIG that can run gasless as this will give you the opion down the road to run it with gas.

I would keep an eye on ebay aswell as there are sometimes some good second had 3ph welders on there.

Is gas rental really that expensive aswell? I have an E Size bottle for my mig and its only about $15 a month I think.

[crash]

Psimpson7 - I do not use my mig enough to justify the gas bottle.
Any Gas MIG can run gasless - you just swap the polarity.
I was paying around the same price as you for gas bottle, and it lasted for over 3 years. The BOC man figures that unless you are going through 3 tanks of gas a year- go gas less.

[Psimpson7]

Any Gas MIG can run gasless - you just swap the polarity.


Not all mig welders have that option

[mark2]

Psimpson7 - I do not use my mig enough to justify the gas bottle.
Any Gas MIG can run gasless - you just swap the polarity.
I was paying around the same price as you for gas bottle, and it lasted for over 3 years. The BOC man figures that unless you are going through 3 tanks of gas a year- go gas less.

I've been tempted to go gas-less when I get the bottle rental invoice but have never tried it. I've seen some gas-less welds (admittedly by an amateur) and have been put off.
So for now, I stick with the bottle rental.

I also have a little BOC 130A stick inverter which cost about $330. I love it for the ease of use, the quality of the welds and the portability.

Inverter MIG welders are supposed to be the ducks nuts - am seriously thinking about one to replace my old mig which is starting to play up.

[Casper]

Ive got both inverter stick (CIG brand 170amp) and Inverter Mig (Kemppi miniarc Mig 180) and I wouldnt go back to a transformer welder for anything.

There is no comparison to how easy it is to get a perfect weld with an inverter to how difficult it is to learn to do it even with a high quality 3 phase or single phase transformer welder.

For the reliability argument, Ive gone through 3 transformer Migs in my time in the engineering field and all have been winding failures so how I see it, with a smaller transformer which runs cooler and solid state electronics which are sealed and dont need cooling I think I should be on a winner.

But only time will tell.

For light work the CIG 170 has a Tig kit which I have used a little and works well on anything down to about 1.5mm and I have run it up to welding 10mm plates to a backhoe arm with the stick and although I needed to do it in 3 filets it penetrated very well and has held fine for more than a year now so Im happy.

I try and steer clear of gasless wire as Ive had my BOC rep and other welders tell me that the resin fumes can cause cancer but I dont know for sure as Ive never actually looked it up myself and I use the Mig enough to warrent haveing a gas cylinder.

Most of the inverter sticks are very good and would do most of the jobs you would throw at them reasonably well but the only time you will really see any difference between the pricy ones and the cheapies is normally in the duty cycle (max amps for constant running with no drop off in performance (is my understanding)) and down low in the amp range using the Tig attachment due to better quality electronics give a cleaner wave form meaning a smoother weld.

If you want to be fairly movile and be able to use it off inverters or generators then I would suggest one with a 10amp supply but if it is going to be only workshop based then get a 15amp.

Im yet to see a 3 phase inverter but I havnt been looking so they may be out there I dont know.

Cheers happy welding :D

[lane]

Summary attempt....

So it depends on price, really.

For $300-$400 one should be able to get a good inverter stick welder, good brand, reasonable quality.

For similar money and precious time one might find a second-hand gas mig which can be used gasless, which gives flexibility for the future.

For a lot more - $1000+ one can get a new gas mig which can be used gasless.

I think I'm still leaning towards an inverter stick machine, which seems to be a good compromise for home workshop use.

[bblaze]

I brought my mig about 15 odd years ago, only a 180amp brumby cig.
It has been dragged around the country building cowsheds, built a heap of stuff at home, repaired lots of car panels/rust. Have used ali wire as well as stainless. Not the best on ali but have built 3 set of bowe rails for boats + other stuff. For the last few years I have run gasless wire (got sick of paying bottle rental). I have 2 stick welders that I use now only for running specialized rods like cast, 680 eutectic etc.
Go the 2nd hand 3 phase mig
cheers
blaze

[Chucaro]

The advantage of a DC TIG/pulse welder like the one in the Token tools link is that they are very compact and you can teke it in your vehicle. Also TIG allows you to wel stainless a and very thin metal.

[bblaze]

The advantage of a DC TIG/pulse welder like the one in the Token tools link is that they are very compact and you can teke it in your vehicle. Also TIG allows you to wel stainless a and very thin metal.

A good quality 3 phase mig would also allow those features as well as the ability to weld alliminium, you loose the portability though. Trouble with the portability thing is that every tom,dick and harry wants you to bring around the welder and weld this for me. Thats ok if its a commercial arrangement. Dont get me wrong I do a lot of freebies but they are done at my place under my terms.
cheers
blaze

[stevo]

I bought a Mi tech 3 in 1 welder over 2 years ago does the tig and stick plus plasma cutter have used the last two plenty of times no problems and when I was living south of Wollongong the supply voltage would drop down to 200 volt and less this would still keep welding no problems.

[clean32]

Mate in all honesty just get a second hand Transformer welder, they are not that big, 200 amp with a sliding Bar or choke.
most Handyman welders use or try to use cheep or incorrect rods so stick with Phillips, 2.5 mm 38s for the panel or small stuff, 3.15 48a for your plate or even on the bigger stuff 48a root weld then fill with a 38 iron power type.

for the hard stuff use a 56s and defiantly if you are doing any chassis stuff

i think the biggest problem with home welders they are just to light ( duty cycle) regardless of what you may be told and once they pick up a bit of heat they tend to very there supply.
Keep the rods dry ( in a box with a light bulb).

as for striking worm the rod up on a bit of scrap ( or earth clamp) so the tip is concave. weld with 2 hands, one as a guide. none of this one handed hero rubbish.
inverter welders are nice but nicer = $$$ and i doint see any real advantages with that. Mig is ok, there is a good selection of wire available now days and gas blends, but it gets a bit expensive if you wish to cover all bases. and flux core ( glassless mig) is just a dog, visuce welds, excessive undercut little control over weld quality and inconsistent weld strength, Hate them with a passion.

[korg20000bc]

Mate in all honesty just get a second hand Transformer welder, they are not that big, 200 amp with a sliding Bar or choke.
most Handyman welders use or try to use cheep or incorrect rods so stick with Phillips, 2.5 mm 38s for the panel or small stuff, 3.15 48a for your plate or even on the bigger stuff 48a root weld then fill with a 38 iron power type.

for the hard stuff use a 56s and defiantly if you are doing any chassis stuff

i think the biggest problem with home welders they are just to light ( duty cycle) regardless of what you may be told and once they pick up a bit of heat they tend to very there supply.
Keep the rods dry ( in a box with a light bulb).

as for striking worm the rod up on a bit of scrap ( or earth clamp) so the tip is concave. weld with 2 hands, one as a guide. none of this one handed hero rubbish.
inverter welders are nice but nicer = $$$ and i doint see any real advantages with that. Mig is ok, there is a good selection of wire available now days and gas blends, but it gets a bit expensive if you wish to cover all bases. and flux core ( glassless mig) is just a dog, visuce welds, excessive undercut little control over weld quality and inconsistent weld strength, Hate them with a passion.

I know this thread is a bit of a time-warp but I just bought a 2nd hand arc welder today for doing some basic chassis repairs. A lot of the online info I've read states that arc is no good for thin sheet work.

Should it be reasonable to use arc on most Land Rover applications? ie. chassis/outriggers, door frame joints etc.

Could someone recommend what are the best rods to use?

I intend to do some training, but would appreciate any advice for starters.

[bee utey]

I know this thread is a bit of a time-warp but I just bought a 2nd hand arc welder today for doing some basic chassis repairs. A lot of the online info I've read states that arc is no good for thin sheet work.

Should it be reasonable to use arc on most Land Rover applications? ie. chassis/outriggers, door frame joints etc.

Could someone recommend what are the best rods to use?

I intend to do some training, but would appreciate any advice for starters.

Before I bought my MIG welder I became quite proficient in arc welding. Rules for successful arc welding:

Arc welding is usually good for steel thicker than 1.6mm. Easiest is 3mm up.

Best welding is done level or down slope. Get your current right. Adjust it for different welding angles. Upside down is hard. You need to rotate your work to easily do welding underneath. When I finished welding my dune buggy I tipped it over and did the underside.

Good cleanliness is recommended, paint and rust will cause holes and lack of penetration.

KEEP YOUR RODS DRY!!! Damp welding rods are a curse, I used to fry each rod over a gas flame before use to get them pre-heated, worked well.

Your starter rod size should be around 2.5mm. General purpose mild steel rods are all you need.

Be rigorous about removing slag before going on. Slag inclusions can be covered up but are dangerous. Grind off sus welds and start again.

When you are finally proficient, go out and buy a MIG. You will never look back. The day my MIG was up and running I rang up my sleazy second-hand merchant mate and sold him the arc welder before I could be tempted to keep it. Never looked back, nearly all my steel welding for the last 25 years have been done by the same MIG.

[LowRanger]

I know this thread is a bit of a time-warp but I just bought a 2nd hand arc welder today for doing some basic chassis repairs. A lot of the online info I've read states that arc is no good for thin sheet work.

Should it be reasonable to use arc on most Land Rover applications? ie. chassis/outriggers, door frame joints etc.

Could someone recommend what are the best rods to use?

I intend to do some training, but would appreciate any advice for starters.

When using arc,the first thing is preparation,you want the area to be welded as clean as possible,it will make it a lot easier to not only strike,but to get good clean welds.You should get some scrap.the same thickness as the material you are about to weld,and practice.Not just making pretty welds,but making sure that you are getting full penetration.One way to do that and using the rod guide that clean32 gave,as I think that would be fine for your use,is to turn up the amps till you blow through the material when making a normal weld.Then back the amps off and make a bead,until you can see the weld has just penetrated the material enough to leave a mark on the back of the material.Once you have that,then you will know you have full penetration and a strong weld.

Wayne

[Hoges]

FWIW, there are some rods you can get for use with the inverter stick welder which are called "drag" rods...you strike the bead and lay the rod on the work and drag it along... the slag keeps the correct distance and it works rather well for thinner metals once you get the hang of it. The rods are difficult to find..I think BOC still sell them...apparently the use of a drag rod has been somewhat outmoded by the popularity of MIG.

I bought some drag rods because I'm a complete novice (though my camper did hold together despite a real pounding on a trip to the Cape earlier this year ;)) and they are a much cheaper option than 'through life' costs associated with MIG bottles etc for small and infrequent welding jobs...
good luck!

[bee utey]

And if you do end up getting a mig you buy a couple of disposable bottles of gas for the weenie jobs, and rent a big bottle for 3 months if you have a construction project in mind.

[ozscott]

I don't weld much but when I do I like to pick up my esseti 150 inverter lift arc/dc tig and weld. I love it. Light as a feather and yet drives
3.2 rods as fast as you can keep loading them with excellent penetration. Deft enough to weld sheet with practice. And came with the regulator, lines and tig piece but I have not grabbed a bottle of argon for it. Been meaning to for years. I have yet to really take to mig. My brother is very mig profIcient. But I can't see me going past the inverter and if you weld outdoors in wind you just can't beat arc. I also dOnt much like trying to weld through the cloud with gas free mig. Cheers

[clean32]

thay are Iron powder rods, leave a very nice weld to. can only be used on the flat.

easy to get if you know what you want. but yes the mig has all but replaced these, thay are great much less heat and realy easy to use for a novice, no good for diging in.


FWIW, there are some rods you can get for use with the inverter stick welder which are called "drag" rods...you strike the bead and lay the rod on the work and drag it along... the slag keeps the correct distance and it works rather well for thinner metals once you get the hang of it. The rods are difficult to find..I think BOC still sell them...apparently the use of a drag rod has been somewhat outmoded by the popularity of MIG.

I bought some drag rods because I'm a complete novice (though my camper did hold together despite a real pounding on a trip to the Cape earlier this year ;)) and they are a much cheaper option than 'through life' costs associated with MIG bottles etc for small and infrequent welding jobs...
good luck!