Starter and Hand Cranking

[101RRS]

As I indicated in the tech section I have been having problems with my starter.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/83081-starter-issues.html

So I am up early in 2 degree Canberra weather to pull it out and see what is actually going on. Wish me good luck - I do not need these little diversions at this late time in getting the truck back on the road.

But this problem has got me thinking about hand cranking. I do not have any of the tools that go on the front or a crank handle but will be looking at getting a set in due course.

Has anyone actually started their 101 by hand cranking and if so is there a trick to doing it. I have started plane engines by hand but was never actually able to start the series 3 when I tried - was just too hard to turn over quick enough.

Also for those who still have their cranks - is it an item I could make as I assume they are rare as hens teeth - I also assume the handles are not mild steel but is slightly hardened with a bit of spring in it.

Cheers

Garry

[Shonky]

crank handles pop up on eBay. There was a bulk lot of NOS ones that went for not much a while back. ;)

Hilton Pollard at Colo Heights would probably have some kicking around...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Has anyone actually started their 101 by hand cranking and if so is there a trick to doing it. I have started plane engines by hand but was never actually able to start the series 3 when I tried - was just too hard to turn over quick enough.

Also for those who still have their cranks - is it an item I could make as I assume they are rare as hens teeth - I also assume the handles are not mild steel but is slightly hardened with a bit of spring in it.

Cheers

GarryEarly Range Rovers had a crank handle but I have never met anyone who ever successfully hand cranked a V8 to starting speed. My guess is that you would need a squad of grunts to actually crank the beast! :D :D

[101RRS]

Early Range Rovers had a crank handle but I have never met anyone who ever successfully hand cranked a V8 to starting speed. My guess is that you would need a squad of grunts to actually crank the beast! :D :D

I guess the 101 crank handle is unique to the 101 as the engine is mounted further back in the car so is a bit longer than the RR one - but I dunno. I think you are right about the grunts - I am flat out lifting a 101 wheel and tyre these days let alone cranking one.

Removing the wheel arch cover allows good access to the bolts for the starter - have the top bolt off - you cannot use a socket though - the bolt is too close to the housing - luckily there is a cross cut into the top of the bolt head and the previous owner did not torque the bolt up - just a bit more than finger tight with a bit of easy remove locktite to hold it. I doubt I would have got it out otherwise.

Anyway - finished lunch - so back to it.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Garry

Hilton P does have quite a collection of crank handles, including a very long one with bracket for an SIIB. I have one but my no 3 vehicle is sans a crank handle so I may acquire that one also.

Diana

[isuzurover]

Not a V8, however...

I have successfully hand cranked my IIA (when it was a 2.25P) on many occasions. MUCH easier if the engine is warm though, and the hand throttle is up a few notches.

Now it is a 2.25D - I haven't got a hope in hell. Never tried with the engine warm though.

A low compression V8 may be possible if you are reasonably fit/strong and the engine is in a good state of tune.

[Shonky]

I watched a certain workshop truck owner trying to crank start a Centurian at Corowa!

He was unsuccessful but he lost about 3kgs in fluid doing it! :o


(PS - well, technically he was only crank starting the aux gen motor not the big Meteor but hey - don't let the facts get in the way of a good story... :angel:)

[101RRS]

What everyone has said, reinforces my own thoughts however, 101s are fitted with crank handles and my 101 still has the mounting brackets above the grill so someone at some time must have thought it could be done.

But then I suppose the designer had in mind some 20yo grunt build like Arnold Schwarzenegger rather than a 50s something porker like myself.

I have the starter out - just dirty and the teeth on the ring gear and the starter are worn a bit but basically OK - I can see where there has been poor meshing but if the gear is being thrown out properly the teeth faces should still have 95% contact.

So I wondering if there is enough initial oomph to fire the starter cog out quickly and far enough. I have pulled down the starter - all OK - brushes OK. In my spares I have a new solenoid and armature and have used the new solenoid. The armature looks all OK and as there is some sort of clip that I could wreck to put in a new solenoid I will stay with the old solenoid.

I will put the lot back in and see how we go. If still an issue - it will be off to the auto elect with the new bits I have. I assume my 24v starter is the same as the 12v starter except for the armature and solenoid so if I need a new starter I can get a 12v one from a wrecker and put my new bits in.

Oh - just in case I need it - is the ring gear part of the flywheel, pressed onto the flywheel and bolted onto the flywheel. I have a 3.9 ring gear but it is on a auto flex plate.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I watched a certain workshop truck owner trying to crank start a Centurian at Corowa!

He was unsuccessful but he lost about 3kgs in fluid doing it! :o


(PS - well, technically he was only crank starting the aux gen motor not the big Meteor but hey - don't let the facts get in the way of a good story... :angel:)So how long would I have to crank a Centurian to become svelt and a size 6? :D :D

[Shonky]

So how long would I have to crank a Centurian to become svelt and a size 6? :D :D

Are we still talking Tanks here? :p

[101 Ron]

Garry I dont know if the 24 and 12 volt starters are similar.(factory items)
I had replaced my range rover item which was fitted after the 12 volt conversion.
Ashdowns have a 12 volt reduction drive replacement P/N 01-36802 1.4 kw.
I have fitted one of these and they work well with better pinion enguagement too.
A good auto electrican could swap the motor for a 24 volt item as it is a Nippon denso type starter.
I dont know if the above is worth while and if the factory 24volt starter is a good design or not.
The 12volt starters are easy to drop out.
I can take my spare 12 volt starter on the trip coming up as a back up.
Yes the 24volts will not do it any good but it will work for emergency purposes and if doesnt matter if it cooks.

[JDNSW]

A 12v starter will work perfectly well on 24v, and is unlikely to be damaged if the engine starts readily. I have seen a 6v starter used long term on a 12v system without any problems.

John

[101 Ron]

I have a crank handle on the front of my 101.
My crank handle is longer than the standard 101 item as it has to go through the bull bar.
This crank handle I made.
I was lucky enough to find two ex army 2a crank handles.
The drive dog is the same is the series rovers and is just a pin on the end of the crank handle.
I cut the end off one crank handle and welded it on to the end of the other making a crank handle with a long sharft to suit the 101.
Dont bother trying to crank a motor with a SU or CD stormberg as the the way the carbies works makes this dificult.
Tow start is the way to go if the starter fails.
You can hand start some very big motors.....it just depends on the motor.
In fact I had a old Gyrocopter with a volkswagon motor and CD stromberg carby on it and the only method to start it was on the propellor.
When it was hot it was a ****
I had a G60 nissan patrol with 4 litre P40 motor in it and for six months I started it every day on the crank to go to and from work.....first time every time .
( I was young and poor at the time)
The crank on a 101 is useful for working on the motor and if buy yourself stuck in a creek with a wet motor , you can always drop the sparkplugs and crank your self out using the PTO winch.

[101 Ron]

Two things to remember.
The crankhandle shaft is a unusual size and therefore you need to find the 2a crank handles as you will have trouble buying the right size steel stock.
Check the starter relay.
On the 101 there is a relay for the starter solenoid.
I bypassed mine as it gave trouble and have not fixed it as it works fine (starter) by passed and just off the ignition switch.
That relay is a big heavy duty thing in the space up between the drivers seat and the spare wheel and accessed via the engine bay.(If Garry thinks under the dash board is hard wait until you try this)

[101 Ron]

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[101 Ron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/07/1217.jpg

[101 Ron]

Garry I just read the the post on the technical section.
Sounds like a stuffed ring gear or if you are lucky a problem with the starter drive.
If the starter is back in the way to check what is what is by moving the engine a quarter of a turn or a little bit less by hand before starting it with the starter.
If it works every time with out the noise by doing this , then it is the ring gear.
A motor will naturally stop in two or three places all the time and therefore this is where the ring gear wears the most.
By slightly moving the motor around a little bit you will expose the starter pinion gear to a less worn part of the ring gear.
With the starter out you should be able to see the wear in the ring gear by using a mirror and turn the motor over a bit at a time to check all of it .
You should see the slightly more worn areas due to the motor stopping in the same places all the time.
The 24 volt starter I would think would be very different from the 12 volt items as it should be fully suppressed.

[101 Ron]

Well I am going to give it a go tonight and see if the beastie will roar into life on the handle.

[101 Ron]

The time as I type is 7.17 pm.
I last used my 101 at 5.00 pm today.
So the motor was not stone cold , but just warm.
No choke or throttle.
It started with in a quarter of a swing every time for more that six times without fail.
So there you go.....the things we learn.
A completely cold motor would be a different story.
Using the lengthen 2a crank handle shows the handle could do with a bit more lenght in the swing of the handle to over come the drag of the 8 jugs.
I was very very surprised.

[101RRS]

That is great news Ron - I was thinking of the crank handle as a back up if I continued to have starter issues.

However all is well. The ring gear and the starter gear are a bit worn but not excessively so. There is evidence of the starter gear crashing into the ring gear but no major damage. As I hoped, the issue is a build up of muck and dirty connections and the starter was not getting enough oomph to properly engage the ring gear.

I took the lot out, put in the new solenoid and cleaned up the mechanical side of the of the starter. As well, I cleaned up all the electrical side inside (brushes and armature) and all the contacts with a wire brush. Also cleaned up the battery cables and everything else and put lanotec on everything electrical.

When I tested the starter back in - the cold engine fired first turn (I have found running the fuel pump for 20 secs before start makes the engine fire first go). I tried the start a few more times and all is OK. I guess another issue of having a vehicle stored outside in the weather for eight years without it being used.

Previously I mentioned a 12v push switch on the console that I had no idea what it was about. The LPG man has advised that this is the LPG cold start button. The switch operates a valve in the passenger wheel well that fires a shot of LPG direct into the air intact to allow the engine to start on LPG when cold. I had been working under the assumption that my system was a start on petrol and switch. The LPG guy also advised me that even though I do not have a compliance plate, I will not have to go over the pits or get an identity check for ACT registration. When he does the LPG certification he will also be able to do a roadworthy so staying right away from the autocrats at the registry office. That is a load off my mind.

I keep on finding little things - the ammeter doesn't work bit the ignition light does so that will not be an issue at the moment. I also found I did not have an oil pressure switch and that is why the light did not work. I have a cheap oil pressure gauge in now and will fix the oil light later when I am on the road.

Hopefully no more surprises.

Garry

[101 Ron]

The push button for the gas is called a cold start primer.
It works by activating a little solenoid on the side plate of the gas convertor.
This solenoid pushes against a diaphram which will dump a bit of gas into the motor.
Effectively it works like a choke .
Usually you will not need it and it is not always fitted.
Every gas conversion is slightly different as is the starting characteristics of every motor and therefore the starting proceedure of every gas motor is different.
Usually if used a two to three second press of the button during or just after cranking the motor and try again will produce results.
Most gas systems these days have a small electronic control box which will give the motor a puff of gas just before you start cranking the motor.
The CA 150 Impco mixer on your 101 shouldnt need any of this stuff to start if the gas convertor is good and set up correctly.
The next time you get the thing running on gas and warmed up. press the cold start primer button down and hold it there and you will find the motor will stop in time through flooding with too much gas( this will give you a idea how it works.)
The motor may require full throttle to start again and clear its self.

[101 Ron]

The electronic gas controller black boxes used today are better for starting and are extremely relaible.
All the older carby type motor gas conversions can start on gas if set up correctly.
It is only IFE systems which need to start on petrol and these days to fully warm up on petrol.
IFE systems need fuel remaining in the petrol tank to keep the petrol system alive whisle on gas.
On a carby motor the petrol tank can be sucked dry without to much drama.
It is still not a good idea to do this as you suck up all the rubbish in the bottom of the petrol tank and the fuel pump may not like to run dry if old for too long.

[wovenrovings]

I have to say that i am amazed that you could crank start your 101. :o
I always thought it would be a mission after trying on a range rover once. There was no gaps in the compression with which to get up speed. So learnt something new.:D May be the height helps.

The 2.25 petrol is an easy one to crank start.

[101RRS]

Just above freezing this morning - engine fired and ran first hit of the starter - no cranking at all. Starter is now working great.

Now that we know you can hand crank a 101 I think that I will be looking to acquire a handle or make one as a bit of back up - chances of a 24v jump start in case of flat batteries would be remote - though when I have my 12v system fully set up, I will use two smaller 12v batteries rather than a large 12v one so that I can jump start myself if needed.

Garry

[Dave Jump]

Hi Gary

Haven't been on for a while so just catching up. I used to crank start my 101 in England for a while. If everything else is good it will start on the first compressed cylinder. If you had to crank it like a lister diesel you couldnt. The standard crank handles bend for fun because there is too much stuck out the front to clear the number 1 crossmember. I found the best way was to brace the handle at the first bend with my left hand and then give the handle a half turn with as much force as you can muster with the right. This started my 24v GS in an English winter. I also have 2 spare 24volt starter motors as well as a load of 24 volt starter solenoids if you need one in the future.

[101 Ron]

Thats what I found Dave.
It started not so much as by turning it round and round as there is too much drag.
Like you said half a turn and hope the first jug fires.

[101RRS]

I also have 2 spare 24volt starter motors as well as a load of 24 volt starter solenoids if you need one in the future.

Thanks Dave - but these are parts I am not short off. My 101 came with a range of spares including about 6 solenoids and about 4 starter armatures.

Garry

[Aaron IIA]

Size of the engine is not really what decides if you can successfully hand start an engine. I have hand started a Rolls Royce B80 5.8L engine, and a 239ci flat head Ford V8. They both started at or about the first compression stroke. Compression ratios play more of an issue. If the engine is old and worn, you have to spin it up to speed to get it to fire. If the compression ratio is too high, you may not be able to turn it over at all. When ever hand starting an engine, it helps if you can retard the timing (the little wheel on the side of the 2.25p distributor). Watch out for your thumbs and wrists.

Aaron.

[JDNSW]

........Watch out for your thumbs and wrists.

Aaron.

Worth warning again - when cranking any engine, always have your thumb on the same side of the handle as your fingers and always pull not push. That way if it kicks back or even just stops moving, it just pulls out of your hand. If the thumb is on the wrong side, you have a broken thumb, if you are pushing, you are likely to have a broken wrist and possibly a broken face or worse.

John

[101 Ron]

Just to show I could do it, this last weekend with three 101 landrovers parked beside each other I grabbed my crank handle and started all three in turn and with little effort.
Just turn the ignition on and out off gear with parking brake on.

One turn to get the the fuel in the jugs and then a sharp 1/4 turn and away they go......easy.
I have witness to back this up.
No problems crank starting a rover V8.