Oils ain't oils . . .

[peterg1001]

I saw a thread in here a little while back about which are the preferred oils to use in which location - engine, gearbox, diffs etc.

I can't find the thread anymore, so would anyone like to put up their suggestions?

Thanks, Peter

[abaddonxi]

This one?
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/71605-oils-according-rick130.html

[peterg1001]

Ummm, I don't think so, at least I can't see it in there.

I'm sure someone (Diana?) posted a comprehensive list of all the oils they use in various places.

Peter

[peterg1001]

OK, I found it, it was in this forum as thread Oils aint oils - What do you use...

I think it's got everything I need.

Peter

[peterg1001]

So what I think I need is:

6.5L Penrite Classic Medium for the engine
9L Penrite Mild EP for gearbox, transfer case, swivels, axles, steering box.

Does anybody want to agree or disagree with that?

Peter

[rick130]

What vehicle ?
(I'm guessing a Series with the list you've posted, but you haven't indicated)

I would use a GL-5 spec lube in a diff, IMO a GL-4 doesn't have enough EP/AW additives, even though a Rover diff is a spiral bevel style CWP. Use a GL-5 particularly if the vehicle tows or is used hard off road.
In Penrite Mild EP's favour is that it's pretty a pretty heavy oil compared to a modern 75 or 80W-90 and with gears thicker often does provide more protection all things being equal but I'd use a 14.5cst GL-5 additised oil over a 24cSt GL-4 in a diff any day.

I also think that Penrite Mild EP is far too heavy for gearbox use.
It's an SAE110 viscosity oil (at the heavy end of the old SAE 90 scale at 23.8cSt @100*C, which almost pushes it into an SAE140. The SAE 90 oils now only go to 18.5 cSt, SAE 110 to 24 cSt and SAE 140 from 24 cSt to 32.5 cSt @ 100*C)
I reckon if an 80W-90 was originally specified for a manual gearbox, use a modern 75W-90 and have better gear changes, and most all dual rated GL-4/5's are yellow metal safe. If in doubt, look for a copper corrosion # on a TDS and if states 1a or 1b it's fine.
The Penrite Mild EP would be fine in the t/case, you just lose a little fuel economy.

[peterg1001]

So how would you go with Castrol:

Diffs and swivels EPX 80W/90 API GL5
Gearbox, transfer case and steering box VMX 89 API GL4
Engine GTX2 20W-50

This looks pretty consistent with your suggestions, and is what comes out of the Castrol reference wizard.

Peter

[cucinadio]

Penrite Oil - A Better Class Of Oil (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/) .........all the way mate :D

cheers

[rick130]

Peter, I'm not brand 'loyal' or prejudiced, I have oils and greases in the shed from (and in no particular order) Neo, Torco, Redline, Motul, Mobil, Castrol, Silkolene, Penrite, Shell and Fuchs, oh, and Caltex coolant :D
Use whichever brand you prefer, although you may find when it comes to gearboxes one brand may shift a little better than another, but if you use something near the higher end of their respective ranges in all sumps you really can't go wrong.
One thing I'm not sold on is Penrite's 'push' of heavier than normal recommended viscosities for engine oil, and I'm using Penrite in two engines here ATM, but it's a 10W-40 synthetic.

I just had a look at Fuchs, Mobil, Shell, Penrite and Caltex's sites and they all recommend a 10/15W-40 or 20W-50 engine oil (except Penrite who recommend HPR30) and either a 75W-90 (GL-4, eg Caltex Easyshift or an MT-1, buffered GL-5, eg Penrite Transaxle 75) or 80W-90 in the g/box and the same in the t/case and diffs. The only dissenter is Fuchs who recommend their MP90 (SAE90 GL-4) for the gearbox in a Series III. Caltex actually recommend Easyshift in the diffs too, "Easyshift is recommended for front wheel drive transaxle gear boxes and other manual transmissions; steering boxes and automotive hypoid and spiral bevel axles operating under moderate loads where manufacturers call for an API GL-4, SAE 75W-90 gear lubricant."

Personally I'd plump for the 75W-90 in the g/box and possibly the t/case and a good 75W/80W-90 GL-5 in the diffs.

[peterg1001]

Thanks Rick, sounds like good advice.

The big advantage of those Castrol products is that they're all available at the local auto shop, off the shelf, in 1L and 5L sizes.

Now all I have to do is go and spend the thick end of $200 to get them all . . .

Peter

[Newbs-IIA]

about to put either Penrite Mild EP or Castrol EPX 80W/90 in my box/transfer/diffs, depends which is in stock at SuperCheap Auto (staff discount :D)

I use HPR30 in my 202 and will most likely be running HPR30 in the rover's 2.25P in the next oil change - the only good thing about running GTX in the landy at the moment is that it is cheap to replace when it leaks out/burns as much as my old truck does hahaha

[RobHay]

What vehicle ?
(I'm guessing a Series with the list you've posted, but you haven't indicated)

I would use a GL-5 spec lube in a diff, IMO a GL-4 doesn't have enough EP/AW additives, even though a Rover diff is a spiral bevel style CWP. Use a GL-5 particularly if the vehicle tows or is used hard off road.
In Penrite Mild EP's favour is that it's pretty a pretty heavy oil compared to a modern 75 or 80W-90 and with gears thicker often does provide more protection all things being equal but I'd use a 14.5cst GL-5 additised oil over a 24cSt GL-4 in a diff any day.

I also think that Penrite Mild EP is far too heavy for gearbox use.
It's an SAE110 viscosity oil (at the heavy end of the old SAE 90 scale at 23.8cSt @100*C, which almost pushes it into an SAE140. The SAE 90 oils now only go to 18.5 cSt, SAE 110 to 24 cSt and SAE 140 from 24 cSt to 32.5 cSt @ 100*C)
I reckon if an 80W-90 was originally specified for a manual gearbox, use a modern 75W-90 and have better gear changes, and most all dual rated GL-4/5's are yellow metal safe. If in doubt, look for a copper corrosion # on a TDS and if states 1a or 1b it's fine.
The Penrite Mild EP would be fine in the t/case, you just lose a little fuel economy.

Maybe the tread will give some indication

[RobHay]

RICK ! You want to get that damned bug off ya post :mad:.....just spent 5 minutes trying to get the crawler off my screen before I realised it wasn't on my screen....:o :p

[matpoli]

RICK ! You want to get that damned bug off ya post :mad:.....just spent 5 minutes trying to get the crawler off my screen before I realised it wasn't on my screen....:o :p


ROFL @ U ROB

[Aaron IIA]

Thanks Rick, sounds like good advice.

The big advantage of those Castrol products is that they're all available at the local auto shop, off the shelf, in 1L and 5L sizes.

Now all I have to do is go and spend the thick end of $200 to get them all . . .

Peter

Buy it by the 20L drum. It works out much cheaper, and you will have some left over for next time.

Aaron.

[rick130]

Maybe the tread will give some indication

I worked that out after posting it Rob. :angel:

I blame going down through 'New Posts' and not looking at which forum I'm in :p

BTW, you didn't use the Mortein on the screen, did you :lol2:

[series3]

I have heard talk about possible negative effects of using modern oils in engines, because of certain additives that were included or left out.

Trying to look into it, i found this page on the Penrite website.

Penrite Oil Company website home of Penrite lubricants (http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?navlink=Zinc%20in%20Engine%20Oils)

Unfortunately, my own thickheadedness is slowing me down to reaching a conclusion.

Does anyone know much about this idea? Penrite Australia offer 'vintage-style' oil to suit classic cars, but would it make much (if at all?) difference to a petrol 2.25?

[rick130]

I have heard talk about possible negative effects of using modern oils in engines, because of certain additives that were included or left out.

Trying to look into it, i found this page on the Penrite website.

Penrite Oil Company website home of Penrite lubricants (http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?navlink=Zinc%20in%20Engine%20Oils)

Unfortunately, my own thickheadedness is slowing me down to reaching a conclusion.

Does anyone know much about this idea? Penrite Australia offer 'vintage-style' oil to suit classic cars, but would it make much (if at all?) difference to a petrol 2.25?

If you are concerned about the lack of ZDDP in API SM petrol oils, particularly for flat tappets/lifters, use a dual rated diesel oil (eg CI-4/SL or CJ-4/SL)
Far and away the best bang for the buck in terms of wear protection and cleanliness in an older engine IMO.

I doubt if anyone would ever use a 5W-30 oil in an old Series donk, but never, ever use a GF-4, API SL oil in an older engine except for emergency top ups.
They use dramatically reduced levels of old style EP/AW additives and have a low HTHS viscosity for fuel efficiency gains in modern engines (where they work very well) but aren't suitable at all for old style cams and lifters.

[JDNSW]

If you are concerned about the lack of ZDDP in API SM petrol oils, particularly for flat tappets/lifters, use a dual rated diesel oil (eg CI-4/SL or CJ-4/SL)
Far and away the best bang for the buck in terms of wear protection and cleanliness in an older engine IMO.

I doubt if anyone would ever use a 5W-30 oil in an old Series donk, but never, ever use a GF-4, API SL oil in an older engine except for emergency top ups.
They use dramatically reduced levels of old style EP/AW additives and have a low HTHS viscosity for fuel efficiency gains in modern engines (where they work very well) but aren't suitable at all for old style cams and lifters.

I would point out that Series 2/2a/3 four and six cylinder engines have roller tappets, so I don't think your comment about "old style cams and lifters" is relevant although I think it applies to Series 1 engines.

John

[rick130]

In that case John later spec oils would be fine in the four and six using roller lifters, but not in the older V8's which use conventional style lifters.

[hot rover]

Hi Rick130
I like your little insect. I tried to squash it twice and I realised it was in the screen not on it.
Cheers
Rod

[series3]

Cheers rick, I have never really looked into oil as much as now, I thought viscosity was all i needed to know.

Is there a lot more to protectant additives than just levels of zinc? Also, what should I be looking for to get an idea of detergent levels in an oil? Are some detergent additives better than others?

[rick130]

Cheers rick, I have never really looked into oil as much as now, I thought viscosity was all i needed to know.

Is there a lot more to protectant additives than just levels of zinc? Also, what should I be looking for to get an idea of detergent levels in an oil? Are some detergent additives better than others?

Most of the organo-metallic additives used are synergistic, ie. they work together and often have dual roles in a blend.
ZDDP is/was widely used as an anti-wear additive as it was relatively cheap and just plain worked almost better than anything else, and if you had a particularly tough environment just tip some more in, (unlike a lot of things) but yes, there are a number of good anti-wear additives that are probably better than ZDDP, but are quite a bit more expensive for a blender too.
An example of something better from over twenty years ago is Lead.
Lead napthalate was sometimes used in some boutique ($$$) blends and was probably a more effective additive than ZDDP, but there are obvious health implications with it, and it was very expensive.

An example of a more recent additive is some of the Boron based additives which are often used in a few synthetic oils to replace ZDDP, particularly the heavy duty diesel oils as they are very effective. A side effect is they don't poison catalytic converters so can be used in dual rated/fleet blends.
Chevron/Texaco/Caltex has a range of conventional (mineral) gear/diff oils that use a Borate based additive package (they hold the patent on it) that rivals some of the best synthetic gear oils in performance.
Tin Napthalate is starting to be used by some boutique blenders ATM to overcome problems they are having with E10 and higher levels of ethanol and direct injection petrol engines (fuel dilution)

Calcium is one anti-wear/detergent additive preferred by Japanese diesel engine builders.
Most Japanese diesel manufacturers specify an oil with >3000PPM of organo-metallic calcium for it's anti-wear and detergency characteristics in their engines.

As far as detergency goes, like anything else it's a compromise/juggling act to fit as much 'stuff' in your brew and still lubricate what you are trying to lubricate, but most all your diesel oils obviously have better detergency levels than a respective petrol engine oil and usually have an overall beefier additive package, and quite a few are dual rated to the latest petrol oil specs too, eg CI-4/SL or CJ-4/SM

The petrol engine oils dual rated, say SL/CF are pretty good for detergency, CF was the peak diesel rating from only about fifteen years ago and these are often the recommended oils for the modern, common rail light diesels.
Having said that, heavy duty diesel oils have moved on a long way since then, but it shows how good some of the current petrol engine oils can be in terms of diesel performance.

BTW, good luck trying to find out what a blender uses in their oils, (although they often let one or two snippets slip for the advertising fella's) it's a bigger trade secret than any Chinese State secret. :D

[series3]

Cheers Rick, a lot of info to digest there! It should put me in the right direction though.

Are there any more pitfalls in considering these modern, diesel/petrol oils in a 2.25 (especially one with <10,000km)?

Do diesels demand better lubricants than petrol?

Time for some hunting!

EDIT - I have found some diesel oils with the right viscosity levels that have been noted to have high (>3000ppm) of calcium. I think this would be a good oil for me, because my engine is low km's so will still be clean inside . This oil will keep things that way. Some opinions I have come across worry that using a high-detergent oil in a high-km motor can possibly cause problems in itself, but this doesn't concern me.

Also, my case is a bit unique as my petrol motor runs diesel pistons, rings and gudgeons etc.

[rick130]

[snip]

Do diesels demand better lubricants than petrol?




generally, yes !
Diesel engine oils usually have a much more robust additive package, I know of one industry insider that runs Delavc 1 (Mobil's top of the line, full synthetic diesel oil) in his Boxster, with the blessing of Porsche Germany ;)



EDIT - I have found some diesel oils with the right viscosity levels that have been noted to have high (>3000ppm) of calcium. I think this would be a good oil for me, because my engine is low km's so will still be clean inside . This oil will keep things that way. Some opinions I have come across worry that using a high-detergent oil in a high-km motor can possibly cause problems in itself, but this doesn't concern me.

Also, my case is a bit unique as my petrol motor runs diesel pistons, rings and gudgeons etc.

I was only using the calcium as an example of the dual roles played by the additives and the specific requirements for Japanese engines.

I'd just select an oil that had good/recent approvals and was easily available and you can get a good deal on it.
eg. i can get Fuchs Titan Ultralube 15W-40 easily and cheaply, so use that in the tractor and Dad's Falcon.
Interestingly the 4.0 litre stopped using oil when I swapped over from whatever bulk oil his mechanic had been filling it with.

re the calcium, I ran Delvac 1 for years in a Nissan TD42T, one engine in particular that the manufacturer required high calcium levels and D1 'only' has something like 2500PPM calcium and the results were brilliant, but the majors know how to blend an oil without relying on just one additive to do the job.
Caltex had a huge barney with Nissan over the high calcium requirement and ended up running their entire fleet of Japanese utes on Delo 400 (which gave stellar results) to prove to Nissan they didn't require the 'crutch' of high calcium #'s these days but the Japanese were unmoved.
There's a reason why they needed >3000PPm calcium back in the eighties, but i'd bore you to tears with the ins and outs.

[123rover50]

Cheers Rick, a lot of info to digest there! It should put me in the right direction though.

Are there any more pitfalls in considering these modern, diesel/petrol oils in a 2.25 (especially one with <10,000km)?

Do diesels demand better lubricants than petrol?

Time for some hunting!

EDIT - I have found some diesel oils with the right viscosity levels that have been noted to have high (>3000ppm) of calcium. I think this would be a good oil for me, because my engine is low km's so will still be clean inside . This oil will keep things that way. Some opinions I have come across worry that using a high-detergent oil in a high-km motor can possibly cause problems in itself, but this doesn't concern me.

Also, my case is a bit unique as my petrol motor runs diesel pistons, rings and gudgeons etc.

Can you tell me more of the benefits of diesel pistons in a petrol. Sounds interesting.

[series3]

There aren't really any noticable benefits to using diesel pistons etc.. but no noticable drawbacks either. The motor still needs to do at least another 10,000km until it's fully loosened up.

The diesel pistons are heavier, as well are the gudgeons and conrods. Hypothetically, the engine will be less willing to rev, but hopefully will also be less willing to sacrifice revs when put under load. Time will tell....

Also, back on the oil situation, I am 90% sure of getting Penrite diesel HPR 15 (15-50) but not sure yet.

[isuzurover]

There aren't really any noticable benefits to using diesel pistons etc.. but no noticable drawbacks either. The motor still needs to do at least another 10,000km until it's fully loosened up.

The diesel pistons are heavier, as well are the gudgeons and conrods. Hypothetically, the engine will be less willing to rev, but hopefully will also be less willing to sacrifice revs when put under load. Time will tell....

Also, back on the oil situation, I am 90% sure of getting Penrite diesel HPR 15 (15-50) but not sure yet.

Did you fit the diesel flywheel as well??? That would make the greatest difference to torque down low - as it is quite a bit heavier...

[series3]

Nope, only did the motor itself

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

I have been running Penrite 20w-50 "Everyday Driving" in my 2a for about 12 years now,it doesn't loose viscousity when hot, changed from GTX when it started to thin when hot, I run Castrol EPX80-90 in all others, with the addition of Wynns "gear and diff' additive,and it has been all OK for about 18 years now, I restored it and put it on the road in 1992 :) it was our daily driver up until we got the Range Rover.


cheers