Dog question for DB

[V8Ian]

Assuming that guidelines and legislation between the states are quite similar, what it the current stand on chocker chains for dogs?

[dullbird]

Not illegal but very frowned upon in regards to the RSPCA....

They are called CHECK chains but the name you give is the nick name given

WHY?

[V8Ian]

As far as I'm aware not illegal but very frowned upon in regards to the RSPCA....

WHY?
I took a very large annd strong Wolfhound/LabX to an RSPCA boarding kennel for a mate, the people threatened to have me charged. Only after they got me to take the dog to the enclosure, as none of them were strong enough to hold it.

[dullbird]

check chains when not used correctly can cause extensive damage to a dogs throat!

if the dog is THAT strong tell you mate to buy a halti will ever be able to pull him again and its a lot lot nice for the dog...

in regards to having you charged its not illegal in any state as far as I'm aware...simplest way to find out is walk into a pet shop and see if you can buy one.
now if the dog is wearing a check chain that is too small and you cant get it off his head that is a different story.......quite often the most frequent culprit of and embedded collar....the owners put them on young dogs and forget about them.

What RSPCA was it? we are not directly affiliated with them but we work under the same RSPCA Australia Banner But our human resources manager works both QLD and NSW...and is VERY UP on customer service ;)

Was it someone at their front counter? or was it an inspector?

[MacMan]

I had no idea they were so frowned upon. Every single time I have ever taken any of our dogs to see a vet I have done so with a lead and chain. Not once has anyone said boo about it. :eek:

[V8Ian]

The chocker was bought from a vet, and only used under human supervision. The dog now has one of those halter type leads and can be controlled by a 12 yr old kid. It was front counter staff in Qld.
Thanks Lou, I would never be cruel to any animal, and was unimpressed with the attitude shown.

[spudboy]

DB - can you tell me how you can damage a dog's neck from a choker chain please?

I've got a boistrous Doberman pup (1 year old approx) who pulls like mad on the lead for the 1st 10 minutes of any walk, until he settles down.

Wouldn't like to be hurting him. He is a very strong boy, I can come home with a sore arm sometimes if he tries to take off after something.

Thanks
David

BTW - the choker chain is only on when we go for a walk, otherwise he is collarless.

[BigJon]

Like DB said, get a Halti.

I use one on my very boisterous Kelpie / Blue Heeler X and it makes him a dream to walk.

[dullbird]

DB - can you tell me how you can damage a dog's neck from a choker chain please?

I've got a boistrous Doberman pup (1 year old approx) who pulls like mad on the lead for the 1st 10 minutes of any walk, until he settles down.

Wouldn't like to be hurting him. He is a very strong boy, I can come home with a sore arm sometimes if he tries to take off after something.

Thanks
David

BTW - the choker chain is only on when we go for a walk, otherwise he is collarless.

it can bruise their wind pipe when they constantly pull on them especially if it is not put on correctly and doesn't allow to loosen. also if you pull pack on it in a snatching or jerking kind of way can also damage the windpipe.

Trust me if any of you are having trouble walking a dog the best thing you can do for a dog is walk it in a halti...you may also find that once you have them walking calmly on a halti you could probably go back to a lead and collar on its own.
even great Danes can't pull that easily in one.

Just remember how big the check chains are they are quite thin in comparison to a collar they have no give and thats a lot of pressure when a dog is pulling put on a small diameter chain on a sensitive part of the dog.



Get a halti.....the dog will claw at it at first and try and get it off (it does not hurt them)
people who dont know what they are may think you have a muzzle on your dog even though they look nothing like them.
make sure you still leave on the dogs normal collar and lead when walking..so you will need to walk with two leads it just means you can use it as a correctional tool if need be. BUT if you just hold it like a normal lead the dog will correct it self. at first you will walk it more off the halti when the dog starts behaving (and this wont happen on the first couple of walks) you will walk it more off the lead and then eventually totally off the lead and can probably remove the halti.
importantly carry treats reward calm behaviour it also helps to keep the dogs attention, keeping the dog closer to you:)


In regards to someone being sold one by a vet....doesn't surprise me. not everyone shares the same views as the RSPCA, but we don't like them purely becasue we have seen the nasty damage that can be done with them in the wrong hands or with misuse. And its not occasionally:)

[spudboy]

Thanks for the explanation. Better go off to my local vet and get one of these Halti things.

[dullbird]

probably cheaper from a pet store!

and make sure you get the brand halti...dont get easyleader from my experience from the way it sits on the dogs nose it really irritates them more and the webbing used on them is a lot narrower tends to push right up under the eyes

[spudboy]

Found some on line: Halti Head Collars (http://www.petsonthepark.com.au/category119_1.htm)

Genuine Halti Brand I gather.

Would you suggest L, XL or XXL for a biggish male doberman. He's not huge, but is definitely bigger than our female dobermann. XL?

[dullbird]

Size 0 for Min. Dachshund, Toy Poodle, Yorkie (X Small)
Size 1 Small Terriers, Cavalier King Charles, Corgi, Std Dachshund, Sheltie, Westie, Whippet (Small)
Size 2 Basenji, Beagle, Collies, Cockers, Saluki, Samoyed, Staffie, Std Poodle (Medium)
Size 3 Afghan, Airedale, Boxer, Chow, Dalmation, Dobermann, Greyhound, GSD, Labrador, OESD, Pointers, Retrievers, Setters (Lge)
Size 4 Bull Mastiff, Great Dane, Newfoundland, Ridgeback, Rottweiler, Wolfhound (XL)
Size 5 Bloodhound, Large Danes, Mastiff, St Bernard (XXL)

[dullbird]

If you only want to walk with the halti on its own until the dog calms down with it you can always get the halti safety link...or just fashion something up similar its just something that attaches to the halti and to your dogs collar. if walking with one lead means if the dog gets the halti off your still attached to the collar.

Personally I always get people to walk with two leads but you dont have too just the way we prefer to do it when training a dog back to the collar but each to their own as some may find two leads cumbersome.

V8I You still haven't told me which RSPCA...PM it to me

[spudboy]

I just did some more searching (should have done that first!)....


Size 0 for Min. Dachshund, Toy Poodle, Yorkie (X Small)
Size 1 Small Terriers, Cavalier King Charles, Corgi, Std Dachshund, Sheltie, Westie, Whippet (Small)
Size 2 Basenji, Beagle, Collies, Cockers, Saluki, Samoyed, Staffie, Std Poodle (Medium)
Size 3 Afghan, Airedale, Boxer, Chow, Dalmation, Dobermann, Greyhound, GSD, Labrador, OESD, Pointers, Retrievers, Setters (Lge)
Size 4 Bull Mastiff, Great Dane, Newfoundland, Ridgeback, Rottweiler, Wolfhound (XL)
Size 5 Bloodhound, Large Danes, Mastiff, St Bernard (XXL)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

can vouch for the difference a Halti makes,,
Guiness is MUCH easier to walk with it on,,:cool:

[Reads90]

mmm great post cheers all

I have 2 Huskies and all though they are gernerally really well behaved dogs . They get a bit excited for the first 10 mins when walking . Was thinking about getting a Chocker coller but put it off as i don't like them . Most of the walking problem with the dogs is our fault becasue we take them to the park every day to play with the other dogs in the Dog park bit, and hence don't walk on the lead that much . And when they are not in the park they are down the beach without a lead

But would be nice to walk them with the wife and pram with out them puling like mad for the first 10 mins of a walk

I shall be off to the pet store to go and buy one of these collars/ leads.

[V8Ian]

can vouch for the difference a Halti makes,,
Guiness is MUCH easier to walk with it on,,:cool:
So this devise enables you to walk in a straight line, FOP?;)

[solmanic]

I prefer the "Blackdog" (http://www.blackdog.net.au) Training halters. Often referred to as "Power steering for your dog". They have a decent nose padding and the head strap sits high, behind the dog's ears. I was told by my vet that pressure here has a calming effect. You often find rubbing with pressure behind the ears should calm your dog down. You need to make sure this strap is suitably tight otherwise the dog can sometimes back out of the halter.

Incidentally choke chains are all that is ever used at shows here in Qld but I can't say I know of anyone in show circles who uses them outside there. And definitely never leave dogs tied up with a choker, that's just stupid. The show ones are generally very light duty and slide easily on the chain. Also the dogs on them are usually quite highly trained and one gentle pull is enough to check them.

[dullbird]

chains are used in show as its the only thing you can put on a dog that doesn't really cover up anything...you get a check chain up behind the dogs ears and suddenly it looks like the dog is not wearing anything and you can see every line on the dog from the ears down...which is obviously important in showing.

but like you say these dogs are already well manored and don't really need it on anyway

Edit: I have used something similar to what you have put up solmanic it works similar to a chocker but with material......personally IMHO you will have control with this set up but not as much as a halti as with the halti you have control over the nose which in turn controls the rest of the body where the head goes the body must follow.
to give you a different example you can put a lead rope around a horses neck to stop it you can to a degree even if its up high near there check bones. but if you want altimate control you put your had around the bottom of its nose it stops it from turning the head away and walking forward.

[V8Ian]

chains are used in show as its the only thing you can put on a dog that doesn't really cover up anything...you get a check chain up behind the dogs ears and suddenly it looks like the dog is not wearing anything and you can see every line on the dog from the ears down...which is obviously important in showing.

but like you say these dogs are already well manored and don't really need it on anyway

Edit: I have used something similar to what you have put up solmanic it works similar to a chocker but with material......personally IMHO you will have control with this set up but not as much as a halti as with the halti you have control over the nose which in turn controls the rest of the body where the head goes the body must follow.
to give you a different example you can put a lead rope around a horses neck to stop it you can to a degree even if its up high near there check bones. but if you want altimate control you put your had around the bottom of its nose it stops it from turning the head away and walking forward.
You haven't owned horses like some of mine:(

[rijidij]

Halti...........

http://www.dog-online.co.uk/images/halti_collar_3_03.jpg

[dullbird]

You haven't owned horses like some of mine:(


Jesus perhaps you need to buy halti's for your horses too :lol2: I have controlled very spirited 18hh warmbloods in such a way....

of course i'm only talking avoidance here if it wants to kick your head in to get away thats another story....:lol2:

[dobbo]

So I am doing it wrong walking the dog in a man bag?

[dullbird]

So I am doing it wrong walking the dog in a man bag?


no as long as the dog is being controlled with the right hand and the left is applying the lippy;)

[V8Ian]

Jesus perhaps you need to buy halti's for your horses too :lol2: I have controlled very spirited 18hh warmbloods in such a way....

of course i'm only talking avoidance here if it wants to kick your head in to get away thats another story....:lol2:
I had moody old mare that I am sure was a welsh pony and donkey cross:(
They say elephants never forget, nor do old nags;)

[dobbo]

no as long as the dog is being controlled with the right hand and the left is applying the lippy;)

Sorry no lippy, ratdog is a girl. Why would you want to apply that to ones self is anyones business,

I love animals just not in that way.

[dullbird]

lmfao

[HBWC]

vet expensive try your local fodder or pet store

[stage1slave]

yes,or online. I get all my stuff from a mob called Vet Products Direct. There are others as well.
cheers
Evelyn

[d2dave]

I own a German Sheppard. When we got her as a Pup we took her to an obedience training school and we were told to use a Choker Chain(call it what you like). Our dog at home does not wear a collar and whenever we go for a walk I just slip the choker on. It is fitted in such a way that when the lead is loose the chain slips down and is not tight. The few times I have to pull it does not cause any distress whatsoever to the dog. When ever she goes to the vet nothing is said about the chain. IMO these chains are completely harmless.

Dave.

[dullbird]

I own a German Sheppard. When we got her as a Pup we took her to an obedience training school and we were told to use a Choker Chain(call it what you like). Our dog at home does not wear a collar and whenever we go for a walk I just slip the choker on. It is fitted in such a way that when the lead is loose the chain slips down and is not tight. The few times I have to pull it does not cause any distress whatsoever to the dog. When ever she goes to the vet nothing is said about the chain.
IMO these chains are completely harmless.Dave.

:eek:...

[dobbo]

IMO these chains are completely harmless.

Dave.


In the wrong hands injuries could occur.


Interestingly a $5 check chain costs up to $50 in an adult shop, Ron told me:D

[Yorkie]

does this mean i have to get rid of the boxed set of barbara woodhouse videos..... she would be turning in her grave saying the check chain is harmful !!! :angel:

[dullbird]

In the wrong hands injuries could occur.Interestingly a $5 check chain costs up to $50 in an adult shop, Ron told me:D

which is exactly what I said........

for anyone that wants to understand why I feel the way i do about check chains (seriously) if you have one at home put it around your neck towards the top and have your partner pull on it and then give it a short sharp check and come back and tell me whether it causes you any discomfort

I'm not making a joke about being kinky or anything which I'm sure some will....

it didn't get the name chocker for no reason......I'm not on here saying you shouldn't use them only came on to offer alternatives to a much nice way to collar train your dog.....

Check chains IMHO are so old school.....there are much much nicer ways to train your dog

[stage1slave]

Check chains IMHO are so old school.....there are much much nicer ways to train your dog

Absolutely! Praise and positive reinforcement to be exact, and not punishment and cruelty.

[dobbo]

which is exactly what I said........

for anyone that wants to understand why I feel the way i do about check chains (seriously) if you have one at home but it around your neck towards the top and have your partner pull on it and then give it a short sharp check and come back and tell me whether it causes you any discomfort

I'm not making a joke about being kinky or anything which I'm sure some will....

it didn't get the name chocker for no reason......I'm not on here saying you shouldn't use them only came on to offer alternatives to a much nice way to collar train your dog.....

Check chains IMHO are so old school.....there are much much nicer ways to train your dog


I've been a very bad puppy, I've just dug up your lawn

Check me hard..........


Hey Lou I just had a thought how you could earn an extra quid or two...


a "Dull" bird my ass
:D

[CaverD3]

Check chains used correctly are very effective when use correctly. When used incorrectly it can cause damage especially if a dog is left tied up with one. My vet has never seen an injury from a check chain (he is not young) There are many alternatives to the check chain now but use what works for your dog.
The 'old school' argument comes from the tendency of only using positive reinforcemnt and not dominating another animal. Similar to the smacking children argument. (note that since smacking and punishing childen has been frowned upon we now have the best behaved and least violent generation.) :angel:
It is an argument of experience and history over 'modern science'. I was told by a PC puppy preschool teacher that the theory about 'dogs being a pack animal and the owner needs to be alpha dog' has been disproven by science. The articles she showed me were unconvincing and came from an idealised view of animals being equal to humans. The advocates of these theories hate Ceasar Milan (dog whisperer) but to me the proof is in the pudding: what he does, works and leads to a secure and happy dog.
I have tied soft collars and have found a check chain works better and I am able to walk my dane holding the lead with two fingers with only the occasional tug on the chain.
If your dog is always pulling on a check chain and you cannot train him with it stop using it. Try another lead.

[lardy]

does this mean i have to get rid of the boxed set of barbara woodhouse videos..... she would be turning in her grave saying the check chain is harmful !!! :angel:

IMHO she was the devil incarnate to dogs.
I used to watch her as a kid in the old country blimey charlie as an adult i reckon she should be shot!!!
quite proudly my dog failed puppy pre-school, because she was so distracted by all the other dogs close by ready to play.
I would have never of have put on a choke chain in a barbarous woodhouse stylie just to control my dog, my dog may well be a failure but she is a healthy well adjusted failure.

[dullbird]

Check chains used correctly are very effective when use correctly. When used incorrectly it can cause damage especially if a dog is left tied up with one. My vet has never seen an injury from a check chain (he is not young) There are many alternatives to the check chain now but use what works for your dog.
The 'old school' argument comes from the tendency of only using positive reinforcemnt and not dominating another animal. Similar to the smacking children argument. (note that since smacking and punishing childen has been frowned upon we now have the best behaved and least violent generation.) :angel:
It is an argument of experience and history over 'modern science'.
I was told by a PC puppy preschool teacher that the theory about 'dogs being a pack animal and the owner needs to be alpha dog' has been disproven by science. The articles she showed me were unconvincing and came from an idealised view of animals being equal to humans. The advocates of these theories hate Ceasar Milan (dog whisperer) but to me the proof is in the pudding: what he does, works and leads to a secure and happy dog.
I have tied soft collars and have found a check chain works better and I am able to walk my dane holding the lead with two fingers with only the occasional tug on the chain.
If your dog is always pulling on a check chain and you cannot train him with it stop using it. Try another lead.

well I'm a very big believer in pack leaders whether it has been disproven or not. I think you need to lead a pack. That doesn't mean I agree with chains. I really like ceaser millan (however the RS doesn't and wont endorse him) I think a lot of the things he dpoes works well...I have used some of his techniques on my dogs and they work.

However he has also used things that I and others diaporive of he uses a chain collar like the check chain but with hooks on it and also use electric collars which is a big no no in NSW......

the thing I find about training especially with the training I have done with horses is what suits one animal well may not suit another.. And no person should be blinded by one training method but listen to them all and take the best out of each! knowledge is power.

Funny thing is If you watch ceasers OLD shows and his new ones you can actually see a great difference in the way he trains.. in the old series he is very much aggresive alpha male and is quick to dominate. in the newer series he has calmed that down A LOT.....and you hear him constantly in the newer series commenting to the owners "you dont have to frighten him" and "you dont have to hurt him" "let him take his time" etc etc.....for training to be good it needs to evolve........thats why I think the use of check chains is old school:)....Yes I'm sure it does work but so did whipping slaves when they stopped doing what they were told:D

[CaverD3]

Yes I'm sure it does work but so did whipping slaves when they stopped doing what they were told:D




for anyone that wants to understand why I feel the way i do about check chains (seriously) if you have one at home put it around your neck towards the top and have your partner pull on it and then give it a short sharp check and come back and tell me whether it causes you any discomfort


Of course it causes discomort so would a Hali or even a normal colar.

This is making dogs out to be human; they are not.
There is a good reason why I do not feed my wife dog biscuits, make her sleep downstairs in the living room, go to toilet outside or chuck her outside if she is naughty.
These arguments sound good but are emotional rather than logical ones.

There are some good arguments for not using check chains, these just aren't.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Ok,,

how about some logical reasons to use a check chain?

[CaverD3]

Fair enough question. :D

I would not tell anyone that they must use a check chain.
It is just one of many options to train a dog. The goal of any contol divice should be to be able to wallk the dog under contrtol without a lead. (since it is law to have one on in public that would otherwise mean a loose lead)

A check chain works by telling the dog the lead is about to tighten, it should learn to react to the sound of the chain before it actually tightens.

In untrained hands a check chain will not work and could cause the dog to hurt itself by pulling against it.
This can be same with a soft training colar as it can still constrict tha airway and blood flow.
A Halti works by closing the dogs mouth so it cannot breath through it's mouth, since this is how dog cools down it is possible for an overexcited dog that fails to respond to the divice can start to overheat.

Any device used to control a dog rather than train a dog shows a lack of understanding and can be detrimental to the dog.

I am not saying 'use a check chain' just don't be so quick to judge those who do.:)

[barney]

Jesus perhaps you need to buy halti's for your horses too :lol2: I have controlled very spirited 18hh warmbloods in such a way....

of course i'm only talking avoidance here if it wants to kick your head in to get away thats another story....:lol2:

this may surprise you, but the idea of the Halti came from the halter used on horses.
on thew subject of the halti, I totally support Dullbird in this. our monster Bo (in my avitar) was rescued from a japanese family in Willoughby by one of our friends. The family had him tied to the clothes line with a check chain around his neck because the children werre scared of him. they had no idea he was going to grow that big, and at that stage, he was onmly 8 months old.
the check chain was put on him as a pup, and we couldn't get it over his head without cutting it.
all of our dogs walk well on a halti. it leads them by directing their nosein the direction you want them to go, which is great for getting their attention away from another dog if things are getting tense.
Mrs Barney is a trainer, animal behaviourist (delta CGC) and groomer . their dog club will not permit anyone to train with a check chain.
BTW, she sells them....is that a trader ad?:o;)

[CaverD3]

our monster Bo (in my avitar) was rescued from a japanese family in Willoughby by one of our friends. The family had him tied to the clothes line with a check chain around his neck because the children werre scared of him. they had no idea he was going to grow that big, and at that stage, he was onmly 8 months old.
the check chain was put on him as a pup, and we couldn't get it over his head without cutting it.

Perfect example of the misuse of a check chain.:mad:
Perfect example of folk who shouldn't have a dog.:twisted:
Beautiful looking dog barney.:BigThumb:

[barney]

A Halti works by closing the dogs mouth so it cannot breath through it's mouth, since this is how dog cools down it is possible for an overexcited dog that fails to respond to the divice can start to overheat.

.:)

No, the halti works by giving you direct communication with the dogs head and the direction it's going. it's not meant to be an aggressive tool to pull on the dog until it gives in. it's a relatively passive tool.
there are a couple of different brands of these things, all along the sdame lines; Gentle Leader is one, we use one from Black Dog.
the Black Dog one has a collar part that fastens around the dogs neck, snuggly but not overly tight, attached to that down either side of the dog's muzzle is a soft hoop over the top of the nose and this is held in place by one of those slip toggles that you find around the neck of your polar fleece jackets.
there are two D rings, one on the cords that come off the nose peice and one that is on the neck collar. Correct use will have a double ended lead, one end attached to the neck ring for restraining the dog if need be, and one on the cords hanging from the nose hoop for leading the dog.
you can see in this video YouTube - Gentle Leader Headcollar that the gentle leader is different in that it does tighten, but at the back of the dog's mouth allowing the dog to open it's mouth and pant.
the one we got looks like this;-http://blackdog.net.au/images/bdw/products/THMini.gif this one's from Black Dog Black Dog Wear - Home (http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)
hope this helps!

[dobbo]

Ok,,

how about some logical reasons to use a check chain?


Two

David Carradine and Michael Hutchins


Well there must be some reason they do it

[CaverD3]

:Rolling::Rolling:

That was in response to Dobbos post.

Barney, agree that the head colar type devices are 'relatively passive'.
With a responsive dog there are no issues but I have seen owners, particularly staffies, with their dog fighting the device until they are exhausted. Operator error again not a fault with the device itself.
As I said all of these devices are good used properly, mothing wrong with the Halti or similar just the owners.

[dullbird]

Fair enough question. :D

I would not tell anyone that they must use a check chain.
It is just one of many options to train a dog. The goal of any contol divice should be to be able to wallk the dog under contrtol without a lead. (since it is law to have one on in public that would otherwise mean a loose lead)

A check chain works by telling the dog the lead is about to tighten, it should learn to react to the sound of the chain before it actually tightens.

In untrained hands a check chain will not work and could cause the dog to hurt itself by pulling against it.
This can be same with a soft training colar as it can still constrict tha airway and blood flow.
A Halti works by closing the dogs mouth so it cannot breath through it's mouth, since this is how dog cools down it is possible for an overexcited dog that fails to respond to the divice can start to overheat.

Any device used to control a dog rather than train a dog shows a lack of understanding and can be detrimental to the dog.


I am not saying 'use a check chain' just don't be so quick to judge those who do.:)

Caver I think your getting a little over excited here......I dont judge people for using check chains i just gave reasons to why I dont like them. and said that in the wrong hands they can do damage, as the dog can to damage its self on one from its own pulling..

I agree with you in the over excited part of the dog and not being able to cool but a dog breaths mainly through its nose not is mouth and the halti does not restric breathing in this manor. Yes all things a dog wears would create discomfort to some degree if used incorrectly but I would far rather a thick webbed collar than a thin metal chain.

I didn't come on here to offend anyone I was asked a question I answered it and gave reasons as to why the RS and myself dont like check chains.....
I'm not judging anyone!!!! just having my opinion just like you:)

And I apologise if I offended you!

[CaverD3]

Not offended dullbird.:)

I was just pointing out that making a human analogy was not appropriate when talking about dog ownership.

I have come accross a few who evangelically promote the banning of check chains (and even some even against punishing a dog at all for anything)


There are some (and I am not saying you think this) who believe that humans should treat animals in the same manner as humans (eg PETA and Animal Liberation) I did not subscribe to their philosophy. That does not mean deliberately inflicting cruelty on any animal is ok, cruelty is defined in the actions and motivations of humans (a human moral issue for us).

[dullbird]

Not offended dullbird.:)

I was just pointing out that making a human analogy was not appropriate when talking about dog ownership.

I have come accross a few who evangelically promote the banning of check chains (and even some even against punishing a dog at all for anything)


There are some (and I am not saying you think this) who believe that humans should treat animals in the same manner as humans (eg PETA and Animal Liberation) I did not subscribe to their philosophy. That does not mean deliberately inflicting cruelty on any animal is ok, cruelty is defined in the actions and motivations of humans (a human moral issue for us).

I wasn't making a human analogy I was asking someone to try it if it hurts you it will hurt a dog they have nerves, feelings and feel pain just like we do thats not trying to humanise them....

I agree with you on the peta they are very extreme and I feel sometimes bend the truth.

I actually like the look of check chains on dogs especially the finer breeds like dobies etc.....I used to have one on my boxer. but only for looks I never used it unless i couldn't find his collar. So I supose that kind of makes me a hypocrite in some senses.

like I said though I'm not into the lets ban this and lets ban that but I do think there are better alternatives