Dell or Imac

[Piddler]

Hi,
I am looking at an Imac or Dell studio 19.

I have no idea which way to go any suggestions?

Cheers

[discopete]

I bought an iMac 6 months ago. My first mac and couldn't be happier. Go the mac. :D

Pete

[disco2hse]

Mac, Good

Dell, meh OK

Alan ;)

[Scallops]

Ha ha - you serious? If you get a Mac, I bet you won't regret it. :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

For a PC, Dell is ok as their configurations are always compatible with Windows. However you still have all the usual windows pain with them like viruses, spyware, bloatware, MS patches, rebuilds, buying or stealing software to do simple stuff etc. Also, I guess you'd get Vista with a Dell, and then you'll want to buy Windows 7 in a couple of months for $200.

Just buy a mac and be done with it. You won't regret it. Apple are basically giving their new OS to people that buy now as well.

You can see the IMac buyers guide (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iMac) here.

[cartm58]

If you went iMac you won't go back to Windows PC

I do everything with ease and simplicity compared to my partners HP Laptop, recent example connecting to the xbox360, just connect via iMac connection360 program couple seconds, Kathy took over 5 minutes to configure and adjust the HP Laptop via windows.

[abaddonxi]

If you're looking for a laptop there are some good deals here -
ht.com.au | Latest Promotions | 60% off selected notebooks (http://www.ht.com.au/ptype/latest_promotions/promotion/20090722_notebook_runout/promotion_detail.hts?utm_source=20090722_July4&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=banner_top1_notebook_runout)

Buy a couple of cheap accessories and get heaps off a laptop.

[Grover-98]

No competition mate! The mac will be far better!

Got my first mac 12 months ago and ill never go back! :)

[ozzirt]

Macs are the "Betamax" of computers. They were once undeniably technically superior, but have pretty much lived on their past glory for a number of years. Evidence if this is best demonstrated by the fact that for many years now, Apple have been trying to develop a dual system with PC architecture. The same is certainly not true of PC systems.

If you are a fiddler and like to mess with your software, Macs and their software are hopeless, however if you are merely a "user" you can take your choice. I like some Mac software, and find that it's good quality but very expensive, and inflexible for my needs. PC software is cheap, and very adaptable (hackable)

It's a bit like comparing a heavy truck with a sports car. Both are very good at what they do,... you just have to decide what you want out of your 'puta

[MacMan]

Macs are the "Betamax" of computers. They were once undeniably technically superior, but have pretty much lived on their past glory for a number of years. Evidence if this is best demonstrated by the fact that for many years now, Apple have been trying to develop a dual system with PC architecture. The same is certainly not true of PC systems.

Cough... That's an imaginative take on things. I'd call it c-wap but that's rude. :p

Mac market share has been on the rise over the last few years. Your analogy regarding the fact that Apple was bridging the gap and that making them "betamax" doesn't make sense. Microsoft is too busy trying to make their software work the hundreds of different varieties of the PC platform to do anything else, and it wouldn't make good business sense for them to do so if they weren't. Microsoft don't make hardware. None of the Linux authors make hardware. Apple makes hardware, OS, applications.

MS Office for Mac is not expensive, certainly no more so than the PC version. I use open source alternatives. My Adobe CS software is expensive either way! I'm not a gamer so I care not about the lack of games.

My advice - if you just want to work, try a Mac!

[dmdigital]

I now have 2 Mac's (iMac and 13" MacbookPro) and my wife will soon be getting a MacBookPro as well. I've also got my folks onto an iMac and since then they have had trouble free computing, Mum was just saying to me have much easier it is to use than the PC was.

[vnx205]

It depends a lot on what you want to do with it.

For a lot of people, it would be a much better idea to buy a much cheaper PC which would be quite capable of doing the job and spend the couple of thousand dollars you have saved on parts or accessories for the Land Rover.

The question is not which is the best computer or the best OS. The question is what is the best computer for the job you need to do at a price you can afford or are prepared to pay.

If you are worried about viruses and other nasties, then for some people the sensible answer is a Dell with Linux installed.

Just as we don't all need to rush out and buy a Lexus or a Ferrari to serve as a shopping trolley for SWMBO, we don't all need to pay for more computer than we need.

Just because the Mac may (or may not) be a better computer does not mean that it is the one you should buy.

[dmdigital]

It depends a lot on what you want to do with it.

For a lot of people, it would be a much better idea to buy a much cheaper PC which would be quite capable of doing the job and spend the couple of thousand dollars you have saved on parts or accessories for the Land Rover.

The question is not which is the best computer or the best OS. The question is what is the best computer for the job you need to do at a price you can afford or are prepared to pay.

If you are worried about viruses and other nasties, then for some people the sensible answer is a Dell with Linux installed.

Just as we don't all need to rush out and buy a Lexus or a Ferrari to serve as a shopping trolley for SWMBO, we don't all need to pay for more computer than we need.

Just because the Mac may (or may not) be a better computer does not mean that it is the one you should buy.

Some of what you say I agree with but one key point about the OS I have to comment on. This is the fact the Mac OS X is a significantly more intuitive and functional user interface to Vista. Apple also provide easy access to a fantastic amount of online video tutorials - yes, I know MS also do, but they are no where near as easy to access. I say this not from just my on personal experience but from what I have experienced since my elderly parents swapped to the iMac from an PC running XP. In the last 12 months they have had virtually no problems, where as when they had the PC they had weekly issues. For someone who is not computer savvy the Mac is a far better choice.

The basic Mac certainly isn't as cheap as a basic PC, however, you get a lot more preloaded software that is fully functional and a higher end quality hardware. When you factor this in and price equivalent in a PC it ends up about the same cost.

[ozzirt]

Cough... That's an imaginative take on things. I'd call it c-wap but that's rude. :p And slightly untrue


Mac market share has been on the rise over the last few years. Your analogy regarding the fact that Apple was bridging the gap and that making them "betamax" doesn't make sense. Microsoft is too busy trying to make their software work the hundreds of different varieties of the PC platform to do anything else, and it wouldn't make good business sense for them to do so if they weren't. Microsoft don't make hardware. None of the Linux authors make hardware. Apple makes hardware, OS, applications. You obviously misunderstand, Betamax was a technically superior system to VHS, but it lost our because Sony flooded the market with cheap VHS equipment effectively outselling Betamax to the point where it just became unviable. Apple are now trying to play catch up after letting their architecture moulder on the shelf for many years, in fact they tried to duplicate PC architecture into their systems as they realised that with their software being so unacceptable to 90% of the computer world they had to do something. This flopped, and they have just resorted largely to using emulators.


MS Office for Mac is not expensive, certainly no more so than the PC version. I use open source alternatives. My Adobe CS software is expensive either way! I'm not a gamer so I care not about the lack of games. I have no games other than those that are part of the Windows package, and although I am disappointed with Microsoft's Operating systems, the PC software that I use is infinitely more adaptable (read hackable if you wish) than that of Apple that it is a non event for me.


My advice - if you just want to work, try a Mac!No, I don't just want to work with limited software. I have far larger fish to fry. I want something far more flexible and useful, also something that can run a huge variety of software with files that are easily transferable to 90% of the rest of the computer world.

You have a good quality pen knife with one sharp blade, I have a Leatherman or Swiss Army Knife. Both can cut things, but one is infinitely more adaptable;)

[Gullible]

We got a Mac a year ago and have had no problems.

It just works, all the time, every time.

[Piddler]

For a PC, Dell is ok as their configurations are always compatible with Windows. However you still have all the usual windows pain with them like viruses, spyware, bloatware, MS patches, rebuilds, buying or stealing software to do simple stuff etc. Also, I guess you'd get Vista with a Dell, and then you'll want to buy Windows 7 in a couple of months for $200.

Just buy a mac and be done with it. You won't regret it. Apple are basically giving their new OS to people that buy now as well.

You can see the IMac buyers guide (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iMac) here.

Thanks for that I want to go a Mac SWMBO is keen as she has worked as an office manager for a graphic designer. Sounds fair enough; i can get office and windows very very cheap through work we pay a small figure and download from Microsoft that would elp the Dell i don't want Vista. We still run XP for that reason on the 5000 odd computers the organisation I work for has including new ones.

Cheers

[vnx205]

... ... ... ... the Mac OS X is a significantly more intuitive and functional user interface to Vista. .. ... ... ... ..

The basic Mac certainly isn't as cheap as a basic PC, however, you get a lot more preloaded software that is fully functional and a higher end quality hardware. When you factor this in and price equivalent in a PC it ends up about the same cost.


I know that a lot of people, especially Mac users say a lot about intuitive interfaces, but my few attempts to use a Mac have all been a complete disaster. Absolutely nothing worked the way I expected it to. Perhaps my brain has been addled by starting off with CP/M and DOS.

I don't accept that the problem was entirely my fault though because I found it much easier to convert to Linux than to try and use a Mac. I even tried a number of distros before settling on Xubunutu and had no problems with any of them.

I am beginning to wonder whether this claim about intuitive interfaces is just one of those great lies that no-one bothers to challenge.


Linux distributions also come with a lot of software (and there is more available for free) but the extra software is only a bonus if you have a use for it. A lot of people don't.

I accept that there are people who are better off with a Mac. I just think that automatically recommending a Mac to every potential computer buyer makes about as much sense as recommending a Ferrari, a Rolls Royce or an Aston Martin to everyone looking to buy a car.

[Bigmark]

Macs are the "Betamax" of computers. They were once undeniably technically superior, but have pretty much lived on their past glory for a number of years. Evidence if this is best demonstrated by the fact that for many years now, Apple have been trying to develop a dual system with PC architecture. The same is certainly not true of PC systems.

If you are a fiddler and like to mess with your software, Macs and their software are hopeless, however if you are merely a "user" you can take your choice. I like some Mac software, and find that it's good quality but very expensive, and inflexible for my needs. PC software is cheap, and very adaptable (hackable)

It's a bit like comparing a heavy truck with a sports car. Both are very good at what they do,... you just have to decide what you want out of your 'puta

You gotta be kidding me- Anything windows based is designed to stuff up and never work for very long. They still have major issues with Vista and they have the nerve to bring out windows7. Macs have saved my sanity, i would have saved over 1000 hours of swearing and headaches just by buying a mac- i have gone months even years without any hardware or software issues- dont even have to think about trojans or viruses. They cost more but they always work. Microsoft is a pure rip off.
"Come to the Dark side Luke" The only thing you will miss is games- 99.5 percent of all software is available for mac or there is something better that does the job.

I love listening to the PC guru segment here on 6PR talkback radio every week- people ringing up with the same PC problems that were around 5-8 years ago. I laugh sooooo much.

Actually dont come to the dark side, the more windows people the better. Ill have nothing to laugh about otherwise.

[ozzirt]

You gotta be kidding me- Anything windows based is designed to stuff up and never work for very long.---snip--- Ahhh the great "Mac lie". I'm no Einstein, but have never seemed to suffer these alleged "problems" and believe me, I do some horrible things to my dear old 'puta.

Perhaps the main reason there are so many alleged PC problems is because they have 95% of the users.

Macs are now finding the downside of their increasing market share, the virus writers are starting to consider then a worthwhile target. Welcome to the real world. Until now they have been a complete non event. ;-)
Macintosh Viruses and Mac Virus Resources (http://antivirus.about.com/od/macintoshresource/Macintosh_Viruses_and_Mac_Virus_Resources.htm)

[Bigmark]

Ahhh the great "Mac lie". I'm no Einstein, but have never seemed to suffer these alleged "problems" and believe me, I do some horrible things to my dear old 'puta.

Perhaps the main reason there are so many alleged PC problems is because they have 95% of the users.

Macs are now finding the downside of their increasing market share, the virus writers are starting to consider then a worthwhile target. Welcome to the real world. Until now they have been a complete non event. ;-)
Macintosh Viruses and Mac Virus Resources (http://antivirus.about.com/od/macintoshresource/Macintosh_Viruses_and_Mac_Virus_Resources.htm)
No lie, i used pc's for many years and still use them at work alongside Macs. Pc's have many many driver issues,hardware conflicts, software conflicts and the list goes on and on. I am still waiting for the final fixs for all the problems and coding errors in XP but they gave up and went to Vista- then they gave up and are trying windows 7.
Face it they cant keep up with the 100's of different configurations of machines to run all the Pc software .
If you installed windows and are trouble free then you never connected to the internet or installed new software or fitted new components.
I am sick and tired of going around to mates houses to help them connect to their Wifi. Does anyone know why it only works sometimes.
Mate ill cut you some slack because you are a landy person but if i ever meet anyone with a windows machine who doesnt have problems" ill go buy a toyota landcruiser" the windows version in the fourby world, and you guessed it-- the landyrover Defender is the MAC.

[dmdigital]

I know that a lot of people, especially Mac users say a lot about intuitive interfaces, but my few attempts to use a Mac have all been a complete disaster. Absolutely nothing worked the way I expected it to. Perhaps my brain has been addled by starting off with CP/M and DOS.
RSTS, MUMPS, CP/M and VMS 2.1 where the first OS I used so, yes, I know what you are talking about. That said, not everyone is happy with each OS. I must also admit I found the Mac OS X frustrating when I first used it, but like I have said for those that are poor with computer skills the Mac is definitely better than Vista.

I'm also surprised you have troubles as one of the things I like about the Mac is you can do almost (possibly all) everything from keyboard commands which is rather good.

[ozzirt]

No lie, i used pc's for many years and still use them at work alongside Macs. Pc's have many many driver issues,hardware conflicts, software conflicts and the list goes on and on. I am still waiting for the final fixs for all the problems and coding errors in XP but they gave up and went to Vista- then they gave up and are trying windows 7.
Face it they cant keep up with the 100's of different configurations of machines to run all the Pc software .
If you installed windows and are trouble free then you never connected to the internet or installed new software or fitted new components.
I am sick and tired of going around to mates houses to help them connect to their Wifi. Does anyone know why it only works sometimes.
Mate ill cut you some slack because you are a landy person but if i ever meet anyone with a windows machine who doesnt have problems" ill go buy a toyota landcruiser" the windows version in the fourby world, and you guessed it-- the landyrover Defender is the MAC.Guess i must be the luckiest bloke in the world then, although I must confess that I do not run Vista and refuse to have anything to do with it. I have a laptop belonging to a local business on my desk at the moment to undergo a devistectomy and have XP installed.

Nope PCs are not perfect, but they are merely more useful than the alternative

I'll think I'll keep my "Swiss army Knife", and my Land Cruiser, another thing that runs first time everytime.:)

[350RRC]

We got a Mac a year ago and have had no problems.

It just works, all the time, every time.

^^^^

That's the one.

And when it does have a sook (with a lot of big apps open at once, like Word, Photoshop, iTunes, iPhoto, Mail, Safari, etc) all being used to create a report, a restart sees you back on the job in less than a minute with nothing lost.

cheers, DL

[Scallops]

Well, I'm new to Macs - I use a Unix based workstation at work (I'm a Scientist), as well as PC's. At work - we don't use any Macs, but we could - any software in the world will run on one actually.

However, I understand some users will not want to run windows (and emulators to drive Unix software) on their Macs - so these users might have software limitations in a work environment. But for everything else - it's the Mac all the way.

And to suggest that a Mac is limited in available software might be technically correct, but I feel this statement too is quite misleading, as I have endevoured to explain above. One glaring area though, where Apple software is very much behind the PC, is in the market for virus fixes, malware fixes, etc software - there is plenty of this software for the PC - not much for the Mac! :tease:

And depending on what you do - Apple software is, in many cases, far superior to offerings running on PC's - an issue that is really beyond debate. Have a look and see how many Journalists, for example, prepare magazine spreads etc on anything other than a Mac.

Other benefits? A Mac is much more stable - you won't get memory leakage and need to reboot it every few weeks. Even when you do reboot - it's quick.

You won't get viruses, malware, Spyware etc nor need to buy all the fixes and associated software.

You will have a user friendly, intuitive interface. And, for the average user, you likely won't need to buy any software - the Mac comes bundled with good, usable software straight out of the box.

And another thing - the Mac changed the face of computing - if we hadn't had Apple invent the icon based visual interface, we would all be typing out comands at amber prompts still (which wouldn't really worry me, but hey - I'm a little different!).

I say try it - Macs sell themselves.

As I said, I am new to my Mac - but as it is a Unix based operating system, perhaps there is a Shell I can access to manage files etc - not that the finder is in any way inadequate - I'm just familiar with using Unix script. I don't know - i haven't bothered delving into it yet that far.

[Ferret]

And another thing - the Mac changed the face of computing - if we hadn't had Apple invent the icon based visual interface, we would all be typing out comands at amber prompts still.

I'm sorry, but that is just not true.

[inside]

Get a Mac and you can put the secret handshake in your signature "". Only readable with a Mac!

Oh and you can do stuff. Tonight I downloaded pictures from my SLR, edited some video and exported to DVD along with doing some design work for my job. Sure all these can be done on a PC but for me it's more comfortable on the Mac. I just seem to spend more time being productive but if you're happy on a PC then go for that.

[Scallops]

I'm sorry, but that is just not true.

Don't be sorry, Ferret - because my statement is in essence, completely true. OK - Apple didn't technically invent the visual user interface - but Apple were the first to put this type of interface onto computers for the consumer. Look at all other computing platforms when Apple first produced it's macintosh computer - none were using any form of icon based visual user interface - they were all command line driven. It might hurt - but the Windows world was yet another Apple innovation, again, copied by the men who come behind....

Macintosh
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see McIntosh.

The original Macintosh, the first commercially successful personal computer to use images, rather than text, to interface with the user.

The newest revision of the iMac, Apple's mid-range computer since 1998.
Macintosh, or Mac, is a series of several lines of personal computers designed, developed, and marketed by Apple Inc. The Macintosh was introduced on January 24, 1984; it was the first commercially successful personal computer to feature a mouse and a graphical user interface rather than a command-line interface.....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I know that a lot of people, especially Mac users say a lot about intuitive interfaces, but my few attempts to use a Mac have all been a complete disaster. Absolutely nothing worked the way I expected it to. Perhaps my brain has been addled by starting off with CP/M and DOS.


How long did you spend trying? Please tell us all!

I got my first Mac 4 or 5 years ago and I'll admit I had a couple of nights of wondering how it all worked. It's just when you've been using one arse about product (MS) for so long it does take a little while to re-adjust.

Did you know that macs are UNIX based and that if you want to you can do pretty much everything from the command prompt? Did you know that UNIX has scripting ability that is in another league to even the current implementation of MS-DOS? I can't remember that much about CPM though as it was so good it didn't make it!

So many untruths on this thread in general. Luckily I am not on my own anymore! :D

Last login: Tue Jul 28 07:09:24 on ttys000
powerbook58-2:~ $ uptime
7:12 up 18 days, 8:04, 3 users, load averages: 0.41 0.25 0.34
powerbook58-2:~ $ uname -a
Darwin powerbook58-2.local 9.7.0 Darwin Kernel Version 9.7.0: Tue Mar 31 22:52:17 PDT 2009; root:xnu-1228.12.14~1/RELEASE_I386 i386
powerbook58-2:~ $ ps -eaf |head
UID PID PPID C STIME TTY TIME CMD
0 1 0 0 0:35.63 ?? 0:46.71 /sbin/launchd
0 10 1 0 0:03.06 ?? 0:08.54 /usr/libexec/kextd
0 11 1 0 0:23.13 ?? 0:33.45 /usr/sbin/notifyd
0 12 1 0 0:07.86 ?? 0:15.00 /usr/sbin/syslogd
0 14 1 0 0:31.79 ?? 0:46.67 /usr/sbin/ntpd -c /private/etc/ntp-restrict.conf -n -g -p /var/run/ntpd.pid -f /var/db/ntp.drift
0 16 1 0 9:48.98 ?? 9:49.22 /usr/sbin/update
0 17 1 0 0:00.01 ?? 0:00.01 /sbin/SystemStarter
0 20 1 0 0:07.03 ?? 0:28.35 /usr/sbin/securityd -i
0 22 1 0 7:52.93 ?? 16:09.54 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Support/mds
powerbook58-2:~ $

[Scallops]

Did you know that macs are UNIX based and that if you want to you can do pretty much everything from the command prompt?
[/FONT]

Oh - that is way cool! How do I access the command line? (there goes finder - I'm back!) :D Thanks for the info, Captain - I thought there would be this functionality but I just hadn't found it yet.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Oh - that is way cool! How do I access the command line? (there goes finder - I'm back!) :D Thanks for the info, Captain - I thought there would be this functionality but I just hadn't found it yet.

There is an application called terminal. Pops you straight to the command line. Apple-space bar brings up spotlight, and then type terminal and it will be the top app. Either that or got to the utilities folder in the applications directory. :)

Probably 98% of mac users don't know that the flash GUI is generally just running UNIX commands under the skin. There are lots of things you can customise under the hood if you can be bothered. You can get code from other UNIX variants and compile them for Mac, ssh and scp to other UNIX boxes etc etc. I can do everything at home that I can do at work on our Solaris MINI's. Can anyone see why I find it hard to understand the claims that they are incapable as computer? That's crazy talk.

Look, Apple may be rubbish as all the people that have never used one keep telling us but they seem to have a lot of people pretty happy. When I read this even I was shocked. Apple claim 91% of the over $1000US market in June (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/23/apple-claims-91-of-1000-pc-market-revenue-in-june/).

[MacMan]

There is an application called terminal. Pops you straight to the command line. Apple-space bar brings up spotlight, and then type terminal and it will be the top app. Either that or got to the utilities folder in the applications directory. :)

Probably 98% of mac users don't know that the flash GUI is generally just running UNIX commands under the skin. There are lots of things you can customise under the hood if you can be bothered. You can get code from other UNIX variants and compile them for Mac, ssh and scp to other UNIX boxes etc etc. I can do everything at home that I can do at work on our Solaris MINI's. Can anyone see why I find it hard to understand the claims that they are incapable as computer? That's crazy talk.

Look, Apple may be rubbish as all the people that have never used one keep telling us but they seem to have a lot of people pretty happy. When I read this even I was shocked. Apple claim 91% of the over $1000US market in June (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/23/apple-claims-91-of-1000-pc-market-revenue-in-june/).

+ 1!

Terminal is VERY handy.

[disco2hse]

+ 1!

Terminal is VERY handy.

+2

I often use Terminal to log into remote systems, do port forwarding, that kind of thing.

The move to Unix certification was smart on Jobs part. Very smart.

Alan

PS I haven't been reading the OS wars posts. They get real boring, real fast. I use a range of platforms, each has its merits and failings. Nothing is perfect, except maybe







ANDROID :twisted:

[Ferret]

Don't be sorry, Ferret - because my statement is in essence, completely true. OK - Apple didn't technically invent the visual user interface

So, you defend your assertion that Apple invented the GUI and then you retract it in the same statement.

Never mind, no need to let facts get in the way of evangelism, is there.

[Scallops]

So, you defend your assertion that Apple invented the GUI and then you retract it in the same statement.

Never mind, no need to let facts get in the way of evangelism, is there.

Well, yes I did - :D Actually, from your quote above, I was attempting to put my assertion into context. I am in no way on a crusade. I use many computing platforms. So really, my crime, Ferret, was to say "invent" rather than "introduce" - sheesh.

So to be completely clear, my intention was to point out that Apple introduced the GUI to the commercially available computer world. Further, my point was that if Apple had not done so - the PC's of the day would still have only offered DOS prompts.

Still - my point is academic - and probably boring and tedious - so I'll leave it there. :)

[vnx205]

How long did you spend trying? Please tell us all!

I got my first Mac 4 or 5 years ago and I'll admit I had a couple of nights of wondering how it all worked. It's just when you've been using one arse about product (MS) for so long it does take a little while to re-adjust.

Did you know that macs are UNIX based and that if you want to you can do pretty much everything from the command prompt? Did you know that UNIX has scripting ability that is in another league to even the current implementation of MS-DOS? I can't remember that much about CPM though as it was so good it didn't make it!

So many untruths on this thread in general. Luckily I am not on my own anymore! :D
.... ... ... ...


It was about a quarter of a century ago, so I don't remember exactly how long I persisted before I gave up. All I can remember is that I wasn't able to get the job done on the two or three occasions when I had to attempt something with a Mac.

It wasn't the fault of Windows. At that stage I was still happily using Apple IIes, Microbees and PCs running DOS. I had believed all the hype about how intuitive and use friendly Macs were with their GUI, so I was very disappointed to discover that it wasn't true. Maybe I had been mislead by the zealots who were not prepared to admit that it might take a couple of nights ti figure out how things worked on a Mac.

Like a lot of things they seem intuitive the SECOND time you use them. That is my feeling about the way Office 2007 programs now look. At first things seem hard to find because it is different fron Office 2003, but once I have found them it then seems obvious that they are located and organised in a logical way.

I thought that apart from the problem that GUIs were arriving on the scene that part of the reason for CP/M's demise was that it ran on 8 bit machines and that 16 bit machines had arrived.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It was about a quarter of a century ago, so I don't remember exactly how long I persisted before I gave up. All I can remember is that I wasn't able to get the job done on the two or three occasions when I had to attempt something with a Mac.

It wasn't the fault of Windows. At that stage I was still happily using Apple IIes, Microbees and PCs running DOS. I had believed all the hype about how intuitive and use friendly Macs were with their GUI, so I was very disappointed to discover that it wasn't true. Maybe I had been mislead by the zealots who were not prepared to admit that it might take a couple of nights ti figure out how things worked on a Mac.


I'm sorry, but I went from our Apple IIe straight to a PC. I didn't try the macs of the time. None the less, I really think it's farcical for you to base your opinion of the current version of OS X on your experiences 25 years ago. That there is crazy stuff.

I can understand your confusion though, as the MS operating system is indeed a descendent of the OS you used 25 years. Mac OS X is NOT a descendant of the OS you used. That is one of the key differences between the two platforms.

Windows is hamstrung by it's ancient architecture whereas Apple leveraged their opportunity to introduce a new OS only a few years ago now.

Maybe it's time to branch out and give one another go when the opportunity presents itself next. If you aren't happy you'll be one of the very few. :)

[350RRC]

Hi,

From what I know Mac is about to go 64 bit, with a free upgrade for those who have already bought one of the latest models, and a sub $50 upgrade for earlier OS 10.'s.

Apparently uses less space on the HD as well.

cheers, DL

[Scallops]

I was new to Macs until just recently too. Within 12 hours of owning it - and that included sleeping, I had it up and running with mail and internet - with all my old emails and bookmarks transferred. 15 minutes later - all my PC stuff was across too.

It took me maybe a week to get fully used to the new environment - but now that I am up and running - I will never buy a PC again. I use one (PC) at work - but in my own time, at home - no way, not anymore. It's a bit like Land Rovers and Jags - life is too short to use boring stuff. :D But more than this, look at the threads within this area of AULRO - are there any threads here - any, from people with dramas concerning their Macs? Well, I haven't found anything major. But unfortunately - we see thread after thread from people who continue to face issues with their PC's. This is the crux of the issue for me. I really feel for the folks here who put up these posts - because much of our modern lives are recorded on and intermingled with our computers, for better or for worse.

I think its funny that a bloke who used one a quarter of a century ago and "found it hard to use" might still feel that way. Things do evolve. I guess we all find certain things difficult :). I found a shaver hard to use at first too - but I don't look like ZZ top! :lol2:

[weeds]

opps, i just ordered a mini mac last night, hope i did the right thing........

[Scallops]

opps, i just ordered a mini mac last night, hope i did the right thing........

I reckon you got what it takes to figure it out, mate. :D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

opps, i just ordered a mini mac last night, hope i did the right thing........:banana::banana::MileStone:

[Scallops]

Yes - well done Kelvin! :thumbsup: I know the Captain is pumped up for you! :twobeers: If you need any help - let either of us know. :)

[vnx205]

The Mac OS may have changed in the last 25 years, but it seems that Mac owners haven't changed at all.

I joined this discussion because it seemed that everyone was trying to persuade the OP that he had to have a Mac.

I said:

It depends a lot on what you want to do with it.

For a lot of people, it would be a much better idea to buy a much cheaper PC ... ... ....

The question is not which is the best computer or the best OS. The question is what is the best computer for the job you need to do at a price you can afford or are prepared to pay.

... .. ...

... .... ...

Just because the Mac may (or may not) be a better computer does not mean that it is the one you should buy.
So I began by pointing out that the issue at stake is not which computer or OS is best.

Then because someone mention "intuitive", I pointed out even the most intuitive interface does not mean that everyone will instantly be able to do what they want to do.

I said:

I know that a lot of people, especially Mac users say a lot about intuitive interfaces, but my few attempts to use a Mac have all been a complete disaster.
... ...
.... ....

I accept that there are people who are better off with a Mac. I just think that automatically recommending a Mac to every potential computer buyer makes about as much sense as recommending a Ferrari, a Rolls Royce or an Aston Martin to everyone looking to buy a car.

Then because someone asked about how long I spent trying to work out how to use the Mac, I explained:

It was about a quarter of a century ago, so I don't remember exactly how long I persisted before I gave up. All I can remember is that I wasn't able to get the job done on the two or three occasions when I had to attempt something with a Mac.
... ....
.... ...

Like a lot of things they seem intuitive the SECOND time you use them. That is my feeling about the way Office 2007 programs now look.
... ... ... ..


However, it would appear that I had not made my point clearly because I was accused of making a judgement about the current version of OSX.

I'm sorry, but I went from our Apple IIe straight to a PC. I didn't try the macs of the time. None the less, I really think it's farcical for you to base your opinion of the current version of OS X on your experiences 25 years ago. That there is crazy stuff.
... ... ...
:)
I don't actually have an opinion about the current version of OS X. I do however have an opinion about the claims that are often made by devotees of particular brands or philosophies.


It seems there was a second point that I didn't make clear enough.


I think its funny that a bloke who used one a quarter of a century ago and "found it hard to use" might still feel that way. .. .... .. :lol2:
Unless someone has been editing my posts, I didn't claim that when I had a couple of Jobs to do on the Mac that I "found it hard to use". What I said was that the experience was a disaster and that I wasn't able to get the job done. I thought I had made it clear that the reason the experience was a disaster was that because I had been taken in by the hype about Macs, I thought that I would be able instantly complete the simple tasks I had to do. I didn't expect to have to spend a couple of minutes working it out. At the time I didn't have a couple of minute to spare and I could have easily done the job on a Microbee in that time.

At no time did I criticise Macs or their OS. I did, however strongly criticise the widespread notion that Macs are perfectly intuitive and completely user friendly. My experiences with the Mac were a disaster because I believed the inflated claims made about the Macs. That is not the same thing as saying there is something wrong with the Macs themselves (or even that there was 25 years ago). I was criticising the claims, not the Mac.

I did think it was a touch ironic that at a time when one thread appeared to be about how easy Macs were to use, there was another thread where a recent Mac purchaser was asking for help to do some quite basic operations.

I suppose the following post must be tongue in cheek as we all know how easy Macs are to use:

Yes - well done Kelvin! :thumbsup: I know the Captain is pumped up for you! :twobeers: If you need any help - let either of us know. :)

So to summarise:
Macs are probably good machines. Mind you they would need to be at the price.
The claims about how intuitive a lot of things, including Macs are, need to be taken with a grain of salt.
My experience with Macs was probably soured because I took some of the claims made then and now too literally.
Not everyone needs whatever extra capabilities a Mac may have.

However none of this actually matters at all.

All you Mac owners are probably happy with your expensive machines. I am perfectly happy with my free, obsolete, cast-off computer running a free OS and free, open source programs. :D

So really we are all satisfied with the way things are and all of this has really been nothing more than an enjoyable chat about something that doesn't really matter anyway. In fact most of it probably belonged in the General Chat forum as most of it was really just the sort of friendly conversation that might have occurred around a campfire after a beer or a glass of red. :D:D:D

[Scallops]

The Mac OS may have changed in the last 25 years, but it seems that Mac owners haven't changed at all.


That's quite a post, vnx! No bad stuff intended from me - in any way. The thing with communicating by only a keyboard is that intention can be lost - that's going both ways. And I've changed a great deal in the past 25 years! Back then, I would have just ignored all of this and gone outside and done something useful! :D :)

[vnx205]

That's quite a post, vnx! No bad stuff intended from me - in any way. The thing with communicating by only a keyboard is that intention can be lost - that's going both ways. And I've changed a great deal in the past 25 years! Back then, I would have just ignored all of this and gone outside and done something useful! :D :)
I suspect I would have done the same. I think I've got too much time on my hands these days. :p However I will now do the right thing and go outside and do something useful. :D

In fact I should have been there some time ago. It is one of those glorious winter days we often get down here. There isn't a cloud in the sky and there is just a breath of wind, so I can choose to be in a T shirt and shorts in the sun or in jeans and a light sweater in the shade and either way I will be comfortable.

[Mutley]

Get a PC - dont waste the bucks on 'computer bling'.

You'll get something that does EXACTLY the same thing for half the price.

Even the low end HP Laptops at the moment are real value for money - plenty of driver support and components last well.

Just don't get vista... I've kept the 35 odd sites that I look after all on XP, and will not be changing over a single computer to a new OS till Windows 7 is in full sale.

[Scallops]

Get a PC - dont waste the bucks on 'computer bling'.

You'll get something that does EXACTLY the same thing for half the price.



You'll get this too...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84834-outlook-permission-issues.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84758-computer-dramas.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84387-audio-probs.html

These were just a taste from the current page of this area. Bling maybe - but it works.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Get a PC - dont waste the bucks on 'computer bling'.

You'll get something that does EXACTLY the same thing for half the price.


Have you used a mac recently? if so for how long. If not, how can you make that call?



Even the low end HP Laptops at the moment are real value for money - plenty of driver support and components last well.

Just don't get vista... I've kept the 35 odd sites that I look after all on XP, and will not be changing over a single computer to a new OS till Windows 7 is in full sale.

So, buy and new computer now, find or buy an outdated OS from somewhere and wipe your new machine and install that. Hope that there are drivers for your new hardware. Then, in 2 months time pay $200+ to get an OS that you hope your new machine has the grunt to run.

Yeah... that's good thinking :)

IT people often forget how hard this stuff is for "normal" people.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So really we are all satisfied with the way things are and all of this has really been nothing more than an enjoyable chat about something that doesn't really matter anyway. In fact most of it probably belonged in the General Chat forum as most of it was really just the sort of friendly conversation that might have occurred around a campfire after a beer or a glass of red. :D:D:D

So, what you object to is that I strongly recommend them?

Ok, how does this sound.

Hi, I've worked in IT for over 20 years now in a number of fields. During that time I've undergone substantial academic and commercial training. I have used both the Microsoft and Apple OS's extensively. I find that the Apple OS is substantially easier to use, faster, has more features, does not require re-building for the life of the hardware, and is very secure. :)

Is that better? :)

[ozzirt]

You'll get this too...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84834-outlook-permission-issues.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84758-computer-dramas.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/84387-audio-probs.html

These were just a taste from the current page of this area. Bling maybe - but it works.i dunno what these mac operators do, other than read all of the outdated problems suffered by PCs, but I've been using a PC of sorts for 24 years, and can't remember the types of problems they seem to keep raising.

I would never be so stupid a to say that hasn't happened, but these problems are a rarity. e.g. persons who would use Outlook deserve a bit of grief in my book, because it's not particularly good at what it does. Mac users are used to having much less choice in their software I suppose.

An long time acquaintance was involved in the purchase of IT equipment for several education establishments in an un named state a number of years ago and told me why Macs are seen in such numbers in the educational system. Apple had a marketing deal whereby if an institution bought a so many computers there were freebies handed out.

Eventually he said "No Thanks, why should we educate our kids with Macs when they will go into the workplace and never see one again except in "Education" or the "Arts". He lost his job due to "interference" from above, someone didn't like losing their little perks.

[Scallops]

i dunno what these mac operators do, other than read all of the outdated problems suffered by PCs...

I just join in the forum, ozzirt. These 3 threads I quote weren't difficult to find - nor did I have to trawl through pages of info to find them - they are right here on this page. I simply pointed them out to demonstrate my point. Where are all the threads about Apple issues?

Like it or not, many more PC users have issues at some stage with their setups.

I'm not really interested in getting too uptight about any of this either! I'm glad you are happy with what you have. :) And - just for the record - I can run any software I like on my Mac - if I need to run windows, I can.

But I don't miss updating Spybot weekly - along with my old virus software. I don't miss having to buy all the extras either - sound cards, video cams, microphones whatever.

At the end of the day, if it hooks you up to AULRO - then it's all good. So if you go missing for a while, we'll send out the patch doctor with all the other fixes to get you back on line sooner rather than later. :D

[ozzirt]

I just join in the forum, ozzirt. These 3 threads I quote weren't difficult to find - nor did I have to trawl through pages of info to find them - they are right here on this page. I simply pointed them out to demonstrate my point. Where are all the threads about Apple issues? But few use them, and usually there are no real options so it's down to take it or leave it.


Like it or not, many more PC users have issues at some stage with their setups.

I'm not really interested in getting too uptight about any of this either! I'm glad you are happy with what you have. :) And - just for the record - I can run any software I like on my Mac - if I need to run windows, I can. Yes, that is often the case Macs have been trying to design dual systems for many years, whereas I have never read of any PC board maker trying to incorporate Mac architecture in their boards,.. it's just not needed, there's no demand.


But I don't miss updating Spybot weekly - along with my old virus software. I don't miss having to buy all the extras either - sound cards, video cams, microphones whatever.

At the end of the day, if it hooks you up to AULRO - then it's all good. So if you go mising for a while, we'll send out the patch doctor with all the other fixes to get you back on line sooner rather than later. :DSome of us have interests beyond surfing the internet, and i wouldn't go getting too complacent about lack of susceptibility to viruses,.. as Macs are gaining market share, the virus writers are starting to take an interest. The much vaunted claim that you can't write viruses for macs has already been disproved, and no doubt will take off when they have enough market share. I have not had a virus in 6-7 years and that was no great drama. I must admit that because of my "pastimes" I do get a few spybots and ad servers, but they are automatically detected and removed in minutes, without my input.

Much of what is quoted about PCs is well out of date. http://www.switched.com/2008/08/06/mac-vs-pc/

[Scallops]

Thanks for the info on viruses, I'll be on the lookout for them :eek:

I mentioned I can run windows because you say I have software limitations.

I too have interests beyond surfing the internet - I am a Geophysicist. And I am yet to find any task that has been, in any way, compromised by me using a Mac.

[vnx205]

So, what you object to is that I strongly recommend them? :)

No, not really. :p For a start "object" is probably too strong a word to describe the feeling that I had that I should put my 2 cents worth in. Secondly, it wasn't a feeling that you or anyone else was "strongly recommending" them. It was more an impression I had that a lot of people were automatically assuming that everyone had to have a Mac. It looks a bit like automatically assuming that if I'm in the market for a 4WD that it has to be a brand new D3. Whereas I might be quite well served (and a lot better off financially) with a second hand Defender.
I know that analogy is hardly perfect, but you get my point, I hope.


Ok, how does this sound.

Hi, I've worked in IT for over 20 years now in a number of fields. During that time I've undergone substantial academic and commercial training. I have used both the Microsoft and Apple OS's extensively. I find that the Apple OS is substantially easier to use, faster, has more features, does not require re-building for the life of the hardware, and is very secure. :)

Is that better? :)

I have no doubt all that is true and I am sure you are in a much better position than I am to make such an assessment, but I don't think you can assume everyone else's needs are the same as yours.
The impression that was being created until I joined the discussion was that the only computer that anyone could ever be happy with is a Mac.
I did say a couple of times that I am sure that Macs suit a lot of people. On the other hand it suits me to have a few extra thousand dollars in my pocket because my needs are such that an 8 year old computer at home running Xubuntu does everything I need to do. There may be other people in the same position as me.

Maybe it's just that I mentally convert the cost of a Mac into diesel for the Defender and make a decision about which is more important, enjoyable and generally fulfilling to me. :p

[Scallops]

...if I'm in the market for a 4WD that it has to be a brand new D3. Whereas I might be quite well served (and a lot better off financially) with a second hand Defender....


Heya vnx - I reckon we can all agree on that! :D - the captain included! :), especially if we change it to... "We would always be better off in any Defender...." :D

Now - I'm going to quit being a Mac dork - and go out - it's Friday night!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

On the other hand it suits me to have a few extra thousand dollars in my pocket because my needs are such that an 8 year old computer at home running Xubuntu does everything I need to do. There may be other people in the same position as me.

Maybe it's just that I mentally convert the cost of a Mac into diesel for the Defender and make a decision about which is more important, enjoyable and generally fulfilling to me. :p

This thread is about Dell/Windows and Macs which precludes me recommending linux. I like linux and we run it here at home. It's bullet proof, efficient and secure. I think it's great. It's an operating system that was written based on UNIX so shares these attributes with OS X. However I don't recommend it as it is waaay beyond most people's abilities.

You say I am assuming what other peoples needs are..maybe. However I think you're drastically over estimating the computer abilities of the general public. The advice given in here bamboozles me. Like buy a new computer, purchase another OS and wipe the one you've just paid for, and then in two months time buy another OS and install it. Doesn't that strike anyone else as a little extreme?

From my experience the majority of the public do not have the skills required to effectively administer a Windows system. They may have enough knowledge to run it but they don't have enough knowledge to secure it, and they definitely don't have enough knowledge to fix it when it goes wrong.

In my experience these problems are largely exclusive to windows. That's why I don't recommend windows. Linux distributions are great but it's not feasible for the bulk of the population so I can't recommend that. OS X has at least the ease of use of Windows and the stability of UNIX so that's what I recommend.

I think we tend to forget that just by the fact that you're posting on a forum means you are more computer savy than most.

Is your 8 year old computer original? Any upgrades along the way? I've got a 9 year old PC here, and it has had a new mother board and processor, new memory, new video card, added DVD, and a bigger hard disk. It's had windows installed at least 4 times that i can remember. All of these operations beyond general public. As to the Apple hardware, yes it is expensive. However again it is more of a closed box. This suits most people.

What happens now if I turn it on? It beeps three times! On the odd occasion it doesn't beep three times when it does start it takes 5-8 minutes before it can be used. What do I do? I leave it there and use the mac because after coming home from working on computers all day the last thing I want to do is spend time fixing them.

When I come home I want a computer to use to chat with friends, do familiy photos and videos with, manage the family budget, even talk to people on an LR forum occasionally. That's why I recommend macs. Add the following to my advice...

"If you treat tinkering with a PC as enjoyment or are at least prepared to trade your own labour against the purchase cost of a computer, go with Windows or Linux"

WHAT A SPRAY! :D:D

[miky]

i dunno what these mac operators do, other than read all of the outdated problems suffered by PCs, but I've been using a PC of sorts for 24 years, and can't remember the types of problems they seem to keep raising.


I agree on that point. I use XP with SP2 and have no problems.
Why do people have so many problems with XP?
I run the normal stuff - office suite, adobe suit, nero suit etc. Also some special stuff like radio programming software and mapping + gps software.

As I say - never had a serious problem.

Have only used a mac for video and photo editing. Worked well, but to be fair, similar programmes for the pc.

[Tombie]

Have only used a mac for video and photo editing. Worked well, but to be fair, similar programmes for the pc.

Correct.. At a cost!!!

I have Unix (SCO), Linux (Red Hat), OS X, XP and Vista computers at home..

3 havent ever caused issues... Guess which 3 :cool:


As for expensive hardware.... Mac Mini.. Sub $1k... How cheap do you want for a hi quality computer?


As a side note. My old man has been using PCs at work for 15 years, excel, outlook etc... hated them... Struggled...
At home tried to make a photo dvd of a trip, struggled... gave up..

got him a mac, mini... now he makes DVDs with soundtracks, emails like mad, chats to family in UK online... etc..

Made a massive difference to him...

[vnx205]

I suppose we can all be guilty of making assumptions about other people when we have only a small amount of information to go on. At least I am prepared to concede that I have been guilty of that and I think I have occasionally seen evidence that others have done the same thing.

It is interesting how often I have found when I have had time for a more detailed exchange of ideas, I have found that the similarities between our positions far outweigh the differences.

You can take this as my rather long winded way of saying that I have to concede that your arguments sound pretty convincing and I now have a clearer idea of why you take the stance you have.

Of course there are still some differences, but that is hardly surprising. People's personal experiences and their levels of expertise can make such a difference to their ideas. Some people can be just plain unlucky and buy a Friday afternoon car and then spend the rest of their life condemning that brand of vehicle as unreliable. Others can buy a perfectly good vehicle and because of their own abuse or neglect, they can have an unsatisfactory experience with the vehicle and be just as ready to blame the brand of vehicle.

Maybe that is why when someone asks for advice on a forum like this, it is a good thing that the responses come from people whose views range from one eyed support for one product or another to completely unbiased assessments. All the person asking the question has to do then is work out which answer seems to best fit their expertise, their budget, their expectations, their needs and so on.

[vnx205]

... .. ... ...

Is your 8 year old computer original? Any upgrades along the way? I've got a 9 year old PC here, and it has had a new mother board and processor, new memory, new video card, added DVD, and a bigger hard disk. It's had windows installed at least 4 times that i can remember.
... ... ... ... .

It is all still original as far as I know. I only acquired it when it was being thrown out a couple of years ago to replace my 10 year old machine.
It is an Acer Veriton 5200, Pentium 4, 1.7Gh, 512 M ram - certainly nothing special by today's standards. With Xubuntu, it seems to be mostly about as fast as machines only a couple of years old running XP, so it's good enough.
Actually there is one addition. i did what I have done a couple of times before. I just added the drive from my previous machine as a second drive to save the effort of transferring files. I couldn't be bothered investigating the proper way of transferring things from the old machine to the new one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It is all still original as far as I know. I only acquired it when it was being thrown out a couple of years ago to replace my 10 year old machine.
It is an Acer Veriton 5200, Pentium 4, 1.7Gh, 512 M ram - certainly nothing special by today's standards. With Xubuntu, it seems to be mostly about as fast as machines only a couple of years old running XP, so it's good enough.
Actually there is one addition. i did what I have done a couple of times before. I just added the drive from my previous machine as a second drive to save the effort of transferring files. I couldn't be bothered investigating the proper way of transferring things from the old machine to the new one.

Well according to this page (http://www.acersupport.com/desktop/html/v5200_specs.html) the memory has been upgraded from 128mb, and they only came with a CD drive and a 20gb hard disk :o If I were you I'd be very careful about maintaining a good backup because you're on borrowed time. :eek: Any hard disk older than 5 years is a ticking time bomb.

Just by the way, Apple include a function called the migration assistant (http://macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/05/17/tiger.html) to enable people to easily move from one mac to another. The date on that article is 2005 so it's been around for a while now.

I've used this a couple of times and it works **really** well. Get your new computer and plug it into the old one. Come back 45 minutes later and job done. Also note that Apple (well BSD UNIX) provide the utilities to wipe your old computer to military specifications!



As a side note. My old man has been using PCs at work for 15 years, excel, outlook etc... hated them... Struggled...
At home tried to make a photo dvd of a trip, struggled... gave up..

got him a mac, mini... now he makes DVDs with soundtracks, emails like mad, chats to family in UK online... etc..

Made a massive difference to him...

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. A friend in Melb had all the usual windows/pc hassles and finally listened to me and got a mac. He was so impressed with it that within two weeks he had his parents get one and they have a similar story. Finally they are getting real value out of technology.

I used to have a constant stream of support calls from my family network. I now have the entire family on macs and no more support. YAAY!

[TheEntertainer]

Here are some mixed up comments.
If you want performance, Dell is not the way to go, you need to build your own custom or from a pc shop. Mac is like driving a Defender, it's a life style choice! IBM is upgradeable, Mac is not that easy, and IBM you can fix yourself, MAC no-go! I've never had a Mac, but would not mind trying one for my next big upgrade. Then again it's not about Dell or Mac, it's more windows or the Mac os. You can run anything on a Mac that you can on a windows box, you may just have to tweak or purchase the virtual desktop software.
Good luck.