Salisbury vs ENV diff

[oliver1981]

hi all,

toying with the idea of a locked salsbury in the rear of the jalopy rather than the env. Env makes me nervous as far as parts availability if required.

question is will the width be the same as env? spring, shock brackets etc all bolt up.

Thanks in advance for your input

Cheers

[dandlandyman]

You won't get a locked centre for an ENV, but I don't know about a Salisbury. The spring mounts are in the same places on both lwb diffs, they're only different in swbs, all s1s except the 107 wagons, and 2B Forward Controls. Also, S1 axles are an inch or two narrower than S2-3. You'll need a prop shaft for the Salisbury, too, and make sure it's the right one (4 or 6cyl shafts are different lengths).

Hope this is helpful.

Dan.
69 2A 88" pet4, 68 2B FC pet6.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Oliver

I have been considering exactly the same issue and both of us have SIIBs with the same dimensions. Getting any sort of locker or LSD diff for an ENV will be an expensive exercise. However there are a range of Detroit, ARB, Truetrak and various other lockers for the salisbury (which is basically a Dana made in England under licence).

I am thinking that the County rear end is about the same width as the SIIB ENV and have recently acquired one, which convieniently has the same brakes as the SIIB. Using the track width of the County and comparing it with the specs of the SIIB will not help as both models have different width rims with different offsets and they may be the reason for the differences in the specified tracks. Will measure it up in the next couple of weeks.

My plans are to remove the County 3.54:1 crownwheel, pinion and hemisphere and replace with a 4.7:1 crownwheel and pinion from a SIII 109 and build them up with most probably a detroit locker hemisphere into the County housing and Hi-Tough halfshafts. In the meantime, the plan is to fabricate spring mountings for the SIIB onto the county housing. Don't think that I want to go to coil sprung SIIB ATM.

What is slowing me up is all the other things I have on my plate with Winter Rally, Eastern Creek Classic and All British Day this month.

Diana

[isuzurover]

Oliver

I have been considering exactly the same issue and both of us have SIIBs with the same dimensions. Getting any sort of locker or LSD diff for an ENV will be an expensive exercise. However there are a range of Detroit, ARB, Truetrak and various other lockers for the salisbury (which is basically a Dana made in England under licence).

I am thinking that the County rear end is about the same width as the SIIB ENV and have recently acquired one, which convieniently has the same brakes as the SIIB. Using the track width of the County and comparing it with the specs of the SIIB will not help as both models have different width rims with different offsets and they may be the reason for the differences in the specified tracks. Will measure it up in the next couple of weeks.

My plans are to remove the County 3.54:1 crownwheel, pinion and hemisphere and replace with a 4.7:1 crownwheel and pinion from a SIII 109 and build them up with most probably a detroit locker hemisphere into the County housing and Hi-Tough halfshafts. In the meantime, the plan is to fabricate spring mountings for the SIIB onto the county housing. Don't think that I want to go to coil sprung SIIB ATM.

What is slowing me up is all the other things I have on my plate with Winter Rally, Eastern Creek Classic and All British Day this month.

Diana

County and RRC axles are around 61" WMS-WMS. What is the measurement of a IIB diff???

It would probably be a good idea to use halfshafts larger than 1.24" 24-spline (even in hi-tuff).

If you buy a D60 locker/hemisphere you can use 1.31" 30-spline halfshafts - with no modification apart from a slight boring of the stub axles (in some cases). Places like Rovertracks can supply axles - HTE may be able to make them as well.

If you want to get to or exceed FC101 levels of strength you can fit a 1.5" 35-spline D60 centre and halfshafts. However to do that you will need custom stub axles from JacMac.

The difference between a Series 3 and a county Salisbury is 6" on the long side axle tube only. It may be just as easy to get a SIII axle modified for the extra width.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

County and RRC axles are around 61" WMS-WMS. What is the measurement of a IIB diff???

It would probably be a good idea to use halfshafts larger than 1.24" 24-spline (even in hi-tuff).

If you buy a D60 locker/hemisphere you can use 1.31" 30-spline halfshafts - with no modification apart from a slight boring of the stub axles (in some cases). Places like Rovertracks can supply axles - HTE may be able to make them as well. ...Sorry IsuzuRover I am not familiar with the acronym "WMS"?

I have not actually measured the drum face to drum face on an ENV rear assembly, but can probably do it this evening when I get home. What I can tell you is that the SIIB is 4" longer than a Series 2-3 axle assembly.

Oliver1981 is running a Range Rover front end on his SIIB, so the track must be close.

I don't know that I personally would be keen on machining out the inside of a regular stub axle, they are thin enough already and the SIIB weighs 2 ton unladen with a 1.5 ton payload rating.

Currently the SIIB ENV uses standard Series stub axles, although to remove the ENV halfshafts you have to remove the stub axle and slide the halfshaft through from the inside as the ENV spline is too large.

Diana

[oliver1981]

Thanks all for your useful responses.

The front end in mine is county so I think a county rear might be the go with mods to the banjo to suit the springs....although a coil spring rear end might be exciting also.

Diana, I'll be at the rally with garrcol so I'll look forward to having a chat about tout conveersion

Cheers

[isuzurover]

Sorry IsuzuRover I am not familiar with the acronym "WMS"?

I have not actually measured the drum face to drum face on an ENV rear assembly, but can probably do it this evening when I get home. What I can tell you is that the SIIB is 4" longer than a Series 2-3 axle assembly.

Oliver1981 is running a Range Rover front end on his SIIB, so the track must be close.

I don't know that I personally would be keen on machining out the inside of a regular stub axle, they are thin enough already and the SIIB weighs 2 ton unladen with a 1.5 ton payload rating.

Currently the SIIB ENV uses standard Series stub axles, although to remove the ENV halfshafts you have to remove the stub axle and slide the halfshaft through from the inside as the ENV spline is too large.

Diana

WMS = Wheel Mounting Surface

Series IIAs are 55" WMS-WMS - so that makes a IIB 59"

I wouldn't worry about the slight amount of machining. The tolerance on stub axle bores is quite wide. When a friend and I did a 30 spline conversion on his landie, we only had to machine 1 stub axle - by less than 0.010"

[123rover50]

I put Salisbury front and rear in my 2b. I got an engineering shop in Nambour to pull the long axle tube and replace it with a longer one to take the Maxi Drive locker and axle. Did much the same with the front. Put a Maxi in there plus went to coils as well. Only coils up front not rear.

Didiman

[isuzurover]

I put Salisbury front and rear in my 2b. I got an engineering shop in Nambour to pull the long axle tube and replace it with a longer one to take the Maxi Drive locker and axle. Did much the same with the front. Put a Maxi in there plus went to coils as well. Only coils up front not rear.

Didiman

I think I saw your IIB back in 1998 at the 50th event at Mt Gravatt??? Very nicely set up.

[Phil4280]

hi there!
Well my 2B FC was one of them at Mt Gravatt in 1998. Its was the ser3 gold coloured one with the proto type 6x6 perentie tray on the back of it. Still got the beast though off the road atm as well as another 2B.

Phil...

[isuzurover]

hi there!
Well my 2B FC was one of them at Mt Gravatt in 1998. Its was the ser3 gold coloured one with the proto type 6x6 perentie tray on the back of it. Still got the beast though off the road atm as well as another 2B.

Phil...

Yours must have been the one with the big canvas canopy?

[jakeslouw]

Sorry about bumping the thread......

Can somebody summarise the differences between the FC Salisbury axles and the axles found in a Series 2/3 109?

- is it a given that the FCs had Salisburies fitted front AND rear (let's disregard ENV axles)?
- the diff ratio (CW&P) is the same between FC and a normal Series: 4.7:1?
- WMS differences?
- were Salisbury front axles fitted to any other models ?(I understand that some South African CKD versions might have had them)
- If I want to convert a Salisbury front diff to 3.54 ratio, can I use a 110 center portion or CW&P? Surely the CW&P would need to be reverse cut?
- brake differences between the FC Salisburies and the "standard" Salisburies?
- how much of an issue to upgrade to later axle shafts?

thanks

[DasLandRoverMan]

South African built CKD IIB's had Salisburys front and rear.
As far as I'm aware all the IIB FC's that came out of Solihull had ENV axles front and rear.

The main difference between the FC axles and those fitted to 109 as fitted on One Ton models from about 72-76, along with other Heavy Duty applications such as armoured cars.
All were fitted with the 3 inch shoes and 11 inch drums on the front, and standard six cylinder brakes (2 inch shoes and 11 inch drums) on the rear.

All leaf spring Land Rovers (apart from the 101) had 4.7:1 diffs, the 101 had 5.54:1 diffs.
If you want to swop a 3.54:1 diff from a coil sprung axle into a series one it is possible. You need to swop the entire diff carrier (everything that comes out when you undo the bearing caps) along with the diff pinion, which requires a new crush tube between the bearings.
101 and Series Crownwheel and pinion are interchangeable without the diff carrier.

No need for reverse cut gears, the factory didn't bother.

That covers most of your questions.

[bobslandies]

South African built CKD IIB's had Salisburys front and rear.
As far as I'm aware all the IIB FC's that came out of Solihull had ENV axles front and rear.

The main difference between the FC axles and those fitted to 109 as fitted on One Ton models from about 72-76, along with other Heavy Duty applications such as armoured cars.
All were fitted with the 3 inch shoes and 11 inch drums on the front, and standard six cylinder brakes (2 inch shoes and 11 inch drums) on the rear.

All leaf spring Land Rovers (apart from the 101) had 4.7:1 diffs, the 101 had 5.54:1 diffs.
If you want to swop a 3.54:1 diff from a coil sprung axle into a series one it is possible. You need to swop the entire diff carrier (everything that comes out when you undo the bearing caps) along with the diff pinion, which requires a new crush tube between the bearings.
101 and Series Crownwheel and pinion are interchangeable without the diff carrier.

No need for reverse cut gears, the factory didn't bother.

That covers most of your questions.

The One Ton Salisbury front differential assemblies differ in that they have the standard narrower Series 2A/3 track width matching the rear Salisbury differential introduced in the last of the Series 2As. Unlike the wider Salisbury 2B front ends with removable swivel balls they have integral swivel balls like a 101 front Salisbury. "E" suffix 2B Forward Control ENV hubs also have 16mm wheel studs rather than 9/16 BSF.

We used to replace the crush tubes with solid spacers (need a bit of fiddling to get it right) so that pinion seals could be more easily replaced and still retain the correct preload for the pinion bearings.

Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

South African built CKD IIB's had Salisburys front and rear.
As far as I'm aware all the IIB FC's that came out of Solihull had ENV axles front and rear.

The main difference between the FC axles and those fitted to 109 as fitted on One Ton models from about 72-76, along with other Heavy Duty applications such as armoured cars.
All were fitted with the 3 inch shoes and 11 inch drums on the front, and standard six cylinder brakes (2 inch shoes and 11 inch drums) on the rear.

All leaf spring Land Rovers (apart from the 101) had 4.7:1 diffs, the 101 had 5.54:1 diffs.
If you want to swop a 3.54:1 diff from a coil sprung axle into a series one it is possible. You need to swop the entire diff carrier (everything that comes out when you undo the bearing caps) along with the diff pinion, which requires a new crush tube between the bearings.
101 and Series Crownwheel and pinion are interchangeable without the diff carrier.

No need for reverse cut gears, the factory didn't bother.

That covers most of your questions.The SIII Stage 1 V8 (and Isuzu in Australia) was leaf spring and had 3.54:1 diff ratios, however the pinion angle on the front diff is inclined so should have a DC jointed prop shaft. The front assembly also has CV joints in the swivels.

AFAIK only the last contract of the South African SIIB had the Salisbury diffs. This was because SIIA/SIIB and ENV production had ceased in the UK. SADF called their 1974 build SIIB: SIII I Ton, 110" F/C they also have SIII clamshell design chassis.

The earlier Sth Africa built forward control (prior to 1971) had ENV diffs. In Australia some very late SIIB (sold to ACT) were fitted with Salisbury diffs. Even as late as July 1973, all the NSW records of SIIB are 331 prefix up to D suffix vehicles indicating UK build. The Port Elizabeth build SIIB with Salisbury are 332 prefix with F suffix. Presumably the Salisbury assemblies were manufactured in the UK and shipped to Port Elizabeth, so whether these last ACT vehicles were 332/F or 331/F is unknown and were likely sold through Leyland Truck and Bus, where we don't have the records.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/143.jpg

[isuzurover]

The SIII Stage 1 V8 (and Isuzu in Australia) was leaf spring and had 3.54:1 diff ratios, however the pinion angle on the front diff is inclined so should have a DC jointed prop shaft. ...

FWIW - since it sounds like Jake is thinking of retrofitting...
I have a Stage 1 complete front axle in my IIA, with standard IIA propshaft (unis out of phase). I have no front end/driveline vibration whatsoever.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Jake

If you do retrofit, I would use a standard 110 or Defender rear Salisbury with drum brakes and retrofit the spring and shock mounts. Make your Salisbury front to match the Defender track, probably using another Defender or 110 housing and then use Stage 1 CV swivels which will leave your steering and front brakes unchanged. IIRC the Defender/RRc is 60mm wider than the SIIB.

Barry Ward, Hi-Tough Engineering (Maxidrive axles) in Queensland has the brooches to cut the stage 1 CV and Salisbury diff splines in halfshafts for your project.

However if you're thinking of going disk brakes, then use a rear disk brake Defender Salisbury and PM me about the front disk options.[/I]

Diana

[jakeslouw]

I'm looking at fitting the FC axles to a Series 3 109 ute.

If the track widths are different between FC Sals and standard Series Sals then I'll need to fit a pair and deal with the extra track width.

Then I might need to compensate for the 4.7 ratio at some stage, so hence the question regarding the later diff center portion interchangeability, but I wasn't sure if there were axle shaft differences : size and spline , between the FC Sals and the later 110 Sals.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The SIIB assemblies are 4" wider than the standard normal control Land Rover, (SIIA are the same track as normal control and that's why they fall over) The SIIB are also underslung rear axle assemblies so you will need to swap the spring plate to the underside.

If you are only looking at having a Salisbury front end with the original track, then the early SIII 1 Ton Land Rovers had a front Sals, but these were discontinued before the end of the model and many later vehicles only had standard Rover diffs. You would need to watch the for sale and ebay ads in the UK to get a front Sals and they occasionally come up in vendors like Blanchards and Dunsfolds.

You are in the correct place to find SIIB f/c Salisburuies.

[isuzurover]

I'm looking at fitting the FC axles to a Series 3 109 ute.

If the track widths are different between FC Sals and standard Series Sals then I'll need to fit a pair and deal with the extra track width.

Then I might need to compensate for the 4.7 ratio at some stage, so hence the question regarding the later diff center portion interchangeability, but I wasn't sure if there were axle shaft differences : size and spline , between the FC Sals and the later 110 Sals.

Diana says above that FC (IIB I assume) axles are 4" wider than series. Coiler axles are 6" wider - HOWEVER a rear coil sals only has the long side axle tube lengthened. The short side axle tube and axle are the same length on both 109" and drum braked 110 salisburies. So it would probably be easiest for the rear to widen one side of your 109 sals and buy 1 custom axle (halfshaft).

[DasLandRoverMan]

Somehow I managed to forget about the Stage 1... :(

As for SADF IIB's and what axle types, I know you've researched them somewhat more than I have, and I've learnt something too.

As far as I'm aware all Salisbury axles have the same 24 spline half shaft pattern, so it would be theoretically possible to extend a 109 tube and build it up with 110 shafts and hubs/flanges if needs be?

I'm also aware the Salisbury inner splines are the same as a 24 spline Rover, so in theory you could extend the axle tube, weld on appropriate flanges and bolt on swivels etc from a 24 spline rover front end and it all work rather nicely.
It'll end up about 2 inches wider than the equivalent Rover item as the diff centre is wider, but is doable.
As far as I know the guy who did it is an Aussie who has appeared on forums as 'Agrover' and 'BillVanSnorkel' and is famed for building a 6x6 Series II with a walking beam back end.

[isuzurover]

...

As far as I'm aware all Salisbury axles have the same 24 spline half shaft pattern, ....

Except FC101s which had 21-spline, 1.47" diameter axles/halfshafts.

And of course Dana60s come in 1.3" (16-spline or 30-spline) and 1.5" 35-spline. It is a shame the brits didn't use the american splines...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Somehow I managed to forget about the Stage 1... :(

As for SADF IIB's and what axle types, I know you've researched them somewhat more than I have, and I've learnt something too.

As far as I'm aware all Salisbury axles have the same 24 spline half shaft pattern, so it would be theoretically possible to extend a 109 tube and build it up with 110 shafts and hubs/flanges if needs be?

I'm also aware the Salisbury inner splines are the same as a 24 spline Rover, so in theory you could extend the axle tube, weld on appropriate flanges and bolt on swivels etc from a 24 spline rover front end and it all work rather nicely.
It'll end up about 2 inches wider than the equivalent Rover item as the diff centre is wider, but is doable.
As far as I know the guy who did it is an Aussie who has appeared on forums as 'Agrover' and 'BillVanSnorkel' and is famed for building a 6x6 Series II with a walking beam back end.I think the Bill above is our Wagoo on this forum.

As ben has suggested Rover Sals (apart from 101) have the same spline. If Jacques can get a SA SIIB Sals I'd use that pair, if going to build them up I'd be pragmatic and use County/Defender and swap the ratios if necessary just because the alignment of the flanges on the axle tubes have to be soooo accurate. Then in the absence of a Shortland front end, I'd go the Stage 1 swivels because the Defender track rod can foul the spring pack. Having CV joints make the manufacture of special halfshafts far easier. The other option for the front swivels when using Defender types on a leaf spring vehicle is to use a LHD Right swivel and a RHD left swivel then put the track rod at the front and join the drag link to a special bracket integral to the track rod.

[jakeslouw]

What about a Salisbury rear and a Dana 44 in front?

Wouldn't that sort all the strength issues?

[landrover dave]

What about a Salisbury rear and a Dana 44 in front?

Wouldn't that sort all the strength issues?
Dana 44 diffs aren't very strong, ask a jeep owner!

[jakeslouw]

Dana 44 diffs aren't very strong, ask a jeep owner!

I am a Jeep owner. 2002 WJ Overland and a 2012 JKU

[DasLandRoverMan]

What about a Salisbury rear and a Dana 44 in front?

Wouldn't that sort all the strength issues?

A D 60 would be better, that's the equivalent to the Salisbury.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A D 60 would be better, that's the equivalent to the Salisbury.Actually its the other way around. The Salisbury is a Dana 60 made under licence in the UK.

[Cliffy]

I know where there are 3 front env front axel/diff assys hub to jub

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I know where there are 3 front env front axel/diff assys hub to jubSIIA or SIIB?

Are the halfshafts intact?

[Cliffy]

Well obviously they are in wa but yes the 1/2 shafts are ther (I think).
How do you tell the diff between a/b?
I can hit the guy up for them if you are prepared to ship back to ?
If you only want the shafts give me a price and I will see if I can get the whole assy and rip them out for you.
Not really an are of landys have much experience with.

[123rover50]

The track of a 2a FC is the same as a bonneted 2a .
The track of a 2b is 100 mm wider.
If I remember correctly the bump stops on the 2a axle are directly above the spring mounts.
The bump stops on the 2b are outside the spring mounts.
You should be able to tell from that.

I converted my FC from its original diff to Salisburys all round. Stronger as that little second pinion bearing in the ENV is prone to cracking its housing.

Keith

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/443.jpg

The black one is SIIB (both front)

On the rear the SIIA is axle over spring same as normal control LR while the SIIB is spring over axle so the spring mounts are on the top.

[Cliffy]

Cool but does someone want them?