300TDi Head Bolts! Reuse or Bin??

[Tank]

What's the consensus on reusing 300TDi head bolts, I know the L/R Manual says "discard", but what's the view of those that have done a Head Gasket job on the 300TDi.
I am considering reusing to save some precious dollars, is it wise to do so?
I don't know if the head gasket has been replaced before (367,000+klms) or the head bolts for that matter, any and all suggestions/advice would be welcome, Regards Frank.

[Disco_owner]

Not knowing if the head gasket has ever been done before , I'd says discard:( Head Bolt Kit is $49.99 inc GST. :)

[spudboy]

Did a head gasket on my TDi300. New bolts fitted.

2 months later, gasket pooped itself (delaminated - mfg fault), so had to do it again. Used the same (newish) head bolts again.

3 years on, no problems.

As Disco-Owner says, for $49 it's probably not worth scrimping.

[Cliffy]

They are "stretch bolts".
Depending on what manual you read they can be reused 3 -5 times.
If you haven't owned your bus from new then BUY NEW!
Good insurance policy!

[Tank]

Thanks fella's, I've ordered new bolts, better to be sure than sorry, Regards Frank.

[justinc]

The main thing to note also is don't pay too little for bolts, good quality bolt kits are a little more exxy but at least you will be guaranteed uniform bolt tensile strength:o

JC

[Tank]

The main thing to note also is don't pay too little for bolts, good quality bolt kits are a little more exxy but at least you will be guaranteed uniform bolt tensile strength:o

JC
JC, what sort of money for quality bolts, do you know what L/R originals cost, Regards Frank.

[justinc]

JC, what sort of money for quality bolts, do you know what L/R originals cost, Regards Frank.

Frank,

I have never bought LR bolts, BUT there are a few european made sets available, I think even Elring do one, and they are around the $120 mark. When you consider the fact that there are 14 bolts, all 12.9 grade and of reasonable length and diameter, then around $10 a bolt is pretty good.

I can't remember the manufacturers name, but there are a few, and there is a set from a Spanish or EU manufacturer that is good too. (Possibly the supplier to International Engines in Brazil?)

The main thing is avoid no name cheap bolts, I have seen them on offer and I would be highly suspicious of their reputation at less than $5 a bolt:o

JC

[p38arover]

Not knowing if the head gasket has ever been done before , I'd says discard:( Head Bolt Kit is $49.99 inc GST. :)

That sounds too cheap.

[Disco_owner]

That sounds too cheap.


That's the price I was quoted from BMI today. :( may be JC is right , that could have been quote for a no name brand , and there is variations in Tensile strength of each bolt in the cheaper kits.:o

but I'll make some enquiries and post it up tomorrow.

[p38arover]

That's the price I was quoted from BMI today.

Lots of stuff from BMI is AllMakes - a brand to avoid, IMHO.

[Disco_owner]

Lots of stuff from BMI is AllMakes - a brand to avoid, IMHO.

my V8 Rangie's NEW head bolts were AllMakes :(but so far the head gasket is going strong .:)

[Disco_owner]

Lots of stuff from BMI is AllMakes - a brand to avoid, IMHO.

Well, I called this morning and spare parts department have assured me the 300tdi Headbolt kit is not an Allmakes Brand.

[Ace]

When i stuffed my engine at the end of last year and had the head re-done and a short motor added to the equation i re-used the majority of the head bolts again, had to replace 2. Bruce davis said if they torque down to the correct settings then there is nothing wrong with using them again. Apparently if they are buggered they wont tighten up properly and feel like the threads are stripped if the bolts are stuffed. Just what bruce said to me. matt

[Tank]

New Bolts and Gaskets arrived this morning (only ordered them yesterday just before lunch), Bolts are Federal Mogul brand, cost $55, gaskets and bolts with Express delivery was $147.90 from British 4WD imports in Bayswater Vic, very happy with service, Regards Frank.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

They are "stretch bolts".
Depending on what manual you read they can be reused 3 -5 times.
If you haven't owned your bus from new then BUY NEW!
Good insurance policy!

Stretch bolts or Torque To Yield are single use only. Dont know where you got 3-5 times from.

Cheers

Andrew.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Frank,

I can't remember the manufacturers name, but there are a few, and there is a set from a Spanish or EU manufacturer that is good too. (Possibly the supplier to International Engines in Brazil?)

The main thing is avoid no name cheap bolts, I have seen them on offer and I would be highly suspicious of their reputation at less than $5 a bolt:o

JC

Ajusa is the manufacturer JC. Used to sell buckets of them when I was at SMS Diesel. Precision sell them too IIRC.

Dont touch any of the Chinese bolts as these are known to be made with scrap steel and dont hold a set quality or tensile.

Cheers

Andrew

[thevroomroom@bigpond.com]

Just bought a set of Britpart bolts from Rovacraft in Perth. $55. Not sure about Britpart, I've had a waterpump failure and a brake master cylinder from Britpart that were really dubious quality and both failed. ( Water pump leaked from gland within 300 km's and the master cylinder held pressure in the system locking the brakes on within the first 10 km's). We'll see what happens with these bolts (Its our truck so we can experiment!)

[Blknight.aus]

you can reuse both the v8 and the tdi head bolts up to 5 times.

as a general rule I dont reuse head bolts on engines that I dont know how many times they have been reused previously in or if the bolts have done more than 100,000 KM.

I personally only reccomend using them 3 times as that leaves you 2 more goes up your sleeve incase something stupid happens when you're desperate.

I'll have a dig through the manuals later and find the reference

[87County]

Stretch bolts or Torque To Yield are single use only. Dont know where you got 3-5 times from.

Cheers

Andrew.

It is from the LR tdi workshop manual.............

forthe few $s, I fiited new (from Turners)

[rick130]

Check the thread age fella's ;)

[Blknight.aus]

last post before mine was yesterday, the information in the thread remains valid regardless of age.

[rick130]

and you were answering something that'd been already answered four years ago Dave.....

[uninformed]

sometime people dont hear the first time, and sometimes its helps the post count :angel:

[87County]

sometime people dont hear the first time, and sometimes its helps the post count :angel:

...and that is how you do it :)

[roverrescue]

Old "binned" 300 tdi head bolts make great T-slot bolts for fixtures on your mill / drill whatever
The large flanged head can get ground to a nice T shape.

Selection of lengths and diameters too!

anyways - I just added that comment to up my post count!

S

[Blknight.aus]

post counter upper only.

no technical value in this post.

[Blknight.aus]

(everyone else is doing it)

[87County]

(everyone else is doing it)


we'll end up getting all of these deleted ! :D

[rick130]

Oh bugger it, in for a penny, in for a pound :D



:angel:

[rick130]

Ok, tech content.

Anyone use the fancy pants ARP bolt lube at all ?

Supposedly ensures much more reliable bolt/clamp tension over engine oil or a moly oil/grease or slurry.

[uninformed]

Ok, tech content.

Anyone use the fancy pants ARP bolt lube at all ?

Supposedly ensures much more reliable bolt/clamp tension over engine oil or a moly oil/grease or slurry.

yep but only 32-1, just make sure your carby is tuned correctly and then your good to go WOT!!!!

[rick130]

yep but only 32-1, just make sure your carby is tuned correctly and then your good to go WOT!!!!


Is is synthetic ? and does it matter ? :confused:

[87County]

Ok, tech content.

Anyone use the fancy pants ARP bolt lube at all ?

Supposedly ensures much more reliable bolt/clamp tension over engine oil or a moly oil/grease or slurry.

Now this thread (no pun intended) gets interesting again.

Thanks Ric - definitely something to keep in mind

ARP-bolts.com | ARP Ultra-Torque (http://arp-bolts.com/pages/arpultratorque.shtml)

If I had known this product about it I probably would have used it.

I oiled the block threads with a light engine oil before the final clean off of the deck (attempting to keep the head gasket mating surfaces as clean as possible) and applied grease to mating surfaces the bolt flanges - best I could do with home mechanic's knowledge. So far so good.....

[rick130]

The papers on it and the results using various lubes are very interesting.

Studs fix a lot of (potential) issues too.

[roverrescue]

Rick,
in specific relation to the 300
does headbolt tension really matter that much?
The failure rate seems to be a function of differential heating combined with internal delamination of the composite gasket.
Would using studs and serges 32-1 chainy oil really make any difference if you then blew a hose cooked the engine in the process warping the tin can head relative to the block????

You know a little part of me doesnt want to turn that Dawes valve down and I want to keep pushing 20psi+ just to see what happens next ;) Hopefully with somewhat sensible fuelling and only minimal (JC recommended advance) I shouldnt be melting piston tops so only real issue should be head integrity...

S

[87County]

The papers on it and the results using various lubes are very interesting.

Studs fix a lot of (potential) issues too.


yes.... unfortunately I wasn't aware of all that info before I did mine.....


I would be interested to know (and understand) why the use of studs instead of hold-down bolts would be an improvement.

If there was a good reason for doing it (and if it was as straightforward as installing studs to the block threads) it could be a simple fix- assuming that appropriate studs are available.

[rick130]

Rick,
in specific relation to the 300
does headbolt tension really matter that much?
The failure rate seems to be a function of differential heating combined with internal delamination of the composite gasket.
Would using studs and serges 32-1 chainy oil really make any difference if you then blew a hose cooked the engine in the process warping the tin can head relative to the block????

You know a little part of me doesnt want to turn that Dawes valve down and I want to keep pushing 20psi+ just to see what happens next ;) Hopefully with somewhat sensible fuelling and only minimal (JC recommended advance) I shouldnt be melting piston tops so only real issue should be head integrity...

S

If you and I used a MLS head gasket instead of the composite, we could crank the bolt tension up and wind up the boost quite a bit more (with a better/more efficient turbo)

[rick130]

yes.... unfortunately I wasn't aware of all that info before I did mine.....


I would be interested to know (and understand) why the use of studs instead of hold-down bolts would be an improvement.

If there was a good reason for doing it (and if it was as straightforward as installing studs to the block threads) it could be a simple fix- assuming that appropriate studs are available.

ARP say it better than I ever could, I'll dig up the link.

Someone on here has gone the stud route, ARP set them up as it wasn't off the shelf, and he posted the invoice... :eek:


Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque
loading. Here’s why. When you use bolts to secure the head,
the fastener is actually being “twisted” while it’s being torqued
to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two
different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in
a “relaxed” mode – never crank it in tightly using a jammed
nut.
If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight.
Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch
only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud
will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This
provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the
head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs
and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run.

[87County]

thanks Ric, I searched "arp" on this site and got no results