Legality of aftermarket 17" rims for D3

[solarstabi]

Note that ADRs & VicRoads in Victoria state that wheel nuts must engage "at least the same number of threads as original"; National ADRs: "same number of threads as stud diameter".
For a D3, this means that 14x1.5mm studs, original wheel nuts engage ~9 turns, or 13.5mm. Replacement rims & nuts must engage about 9 turns or more.
So 17" Dynamic steel rims are o.k., but Performance BB6 alloys are not - the nuts only engage 6 turns, or 9mm.
I've confirmed the amount of nut engagement with Performance BB6 17x8" & BMW X5 17x7.5" Wheels.
I think many people don't realise that wheel studs on a D3 are so short that you only get 9mm of nut engagement.

So OEM 7" rims, or Dynamic steel rims, are only legal ones out there, that I have found so far.
BTW, Kings did a 17x8" steel rim. Marginal on scraping brake caliper (so not legal in Vic), so they decided to stop offering them to D3s.

[Graeme]

I bought some (8!) BMW 17x7.5 for use on a D3 but would not fit them as-is due to insufficient stud length - only 5-6 turns. I planned to have the holes drilled to use D3 nuts although a 6mm washer would have to be used as well as they are thinner.

[TDV6]

Thats one thing that I didnt check, all else is ok.

Ryall

[TDV6]

While I still haven’t checked mine by what happens while on the car, most Performance 17x8 alloy rims were 38mm positive offset while my rims are 45mm positive offset an extra 7mm further inset closer to the engine.

So 7mm plus the standard 9mm should give me heaps over the 13.5mm of engaged thread making my rims legal in VIC as well as QLD which dosent have this requirement as far as I know.

I will check the thread turn count over the weekend to confirm.

Ryall

[RickO]

'Evening All,

Has anyone got experience with the Dynamic 17" aftermarket rims for the D3?

If so, what tyres are you running - did you go the Grabber AT2 in 17"?

Cheers,
RickO

[CaverD3]

I would not think it matters which whhel is used, it's just the nuts that have to be long enough.

[TDV6]

Sometimes my theorising works out but in this case after putting one of my new BB6 45mm offset rims on the car, I found that I still had only six full turns of the wheel nut to fully tighten them.

Ryall

[rmp]

Where did this requirement come from, didn't see it on the VicRoads website?

[solarstabi]

Rob, went down to VicRoads Oakleigh, & they printed a few pages from their website. I don't have the URL, but it is under:
Vehicle Standards Information -> Guide to Modifications for Motor Vehicles (May 2003), Section 8 (Wheels & Tyres):
"Wheel nuts must engage the thread of the wheel stud for at least the same length as the original wheel nut and have the same taper as the mating wheel stud hole." So in Victoria, if the OE nut engages 9 turns, the aftermarket nut must engage AT LEAST 9 turns.
The ADR information (National) I got from 2 sources:
1. Steve at Performance Wheels in Dandenong (verbal) - "nut must engage same length as diameter of stud (i.e. 14mm stud, 1.5mm pitch, must engage 14mm, or 14/1.5=9 turns (approx).
2. Wheel alignment technician at LR Doncaster (name not known), copied some pages from his wheel/tyre training course notes. Says same as Steve told me.

[solarstabi]

Caverd3, it's not the nut which has to be long enough, it's the stud.
There is not enough D3 stud poking through a Performance alloy wheel's tapered nut-seat to allow more than 6 turns.
Steve at Performance Wheels commented "LR D3 studs look shorter than I've seen on other 14x1.5mm studded cars" (e.g. Commodore).
Could it be that LR deliberately fit short studs just so that you have to use their wheels & nuts? No...... that's just paranoia......

[CaverD3]

Meant studs.

If LR ones are shorter then new longer studs should be legal even if the thickness of the alloy around the stud hole is thicker.
The requirement is to have the same amount of threaded stud giving purchase into the hub?

[solarstabi]

Graeme, I took a BMW X5 wheel to my local (highly-reputable) wheel repair/modification business to see if modifying (machining) it is possible to allow OE nuts to fit. No way, as there isn't enough spare alloy material to be machined out & still leave strong base for nut to engage, either with standard LR nut or with turned-down nut/washer that fits into the narrower BMW hole.
His opinion: "Studs are too short to use on unmachined wheel, & wheel has insufficient alloy material to allow machining. 6 turns not enough or legal to use. Don't do it!"

[solarstabi]

Caverd3, studs on D3 hubs are integral, I believe. They can't be "punched out" & replaced with longer ones. I saw this on another forum, probably the UK one. So we're stuck with the studs we get as standard, & so can only use a nut that can engage 9 or more turns on them. i.e. OE nuts on OE rims, or tapered nut on Dynamic or similar steel wheel. All alloy rims have a minimum of 7mm (typically 10mm) of alloy beneath the seat the nut screws down onto. It's this 7-10mm which prevents the nut engaging the stud enough. Theoretically, 7mm alloy allows 12mm of engagement - still not enough.

[ahilliar]

I sit reading this and now fee pretty pleased I was able to pick up OEM 17 " alloys for a good price.

[Graeme]

I hadn't considered the back of the BMW rim and the lack of spare face and can see that enlarging the 16mm holes to 23mm wouldn't leave a lot for clamping, although still more than the washer on the nut.

Correction to earlier info - there would be a need for an additional 4mm washer, not 6mm.

Topline wheel nuts in the USA make ET sytle conical seat nuts in 14mm x 1.5 if their catalogue is correct which appear to suit with only a slight enlargement of the hole, although the seat angle might not be the same as BMW rims. These tapered nuts have a shank that fits into the hole to gain extra threads. The catalogue part numbering inconsistencies suggests the catalogue might not be correct and I haven't been able to find a supplier (even USA) to confirm what they have.

D3 wheel studs can be replaced even though LR don't list them. Someone found D2 studs to be identical, which doesn't help the length problem other than to say that the studs can be removed. Galpro Engineering in South Australia make various studs and nuts so maybe they could supply appropriate studs. I inquired about shorter D3 nuts but their price was more than s/h D3 nuts that could be shortened by 4mm to avoid using an extra washer.

[solarstabi]

Ahilliar,
I spent a lot of time investigating 17" wheels.
1. I listened to experienced LR owners, but took what they said with a grain of salt.
2. I did the internet thing. Lots of mis-information.
3. I spoke with vendors. Some mis-information.
4. I spoke with wheel-modification specialists. Lots of very good advice.
5. I took a real example of an alloy rim I wanted to use to vendors, mod-experts, & then VicRoads. Decision final. Not legal, not modifiable.
6. I went for a wheel alignment. Tripped over a set of OE 17" rims by accident.
Bought them on the spot.

How lucky can you get? As lucky as the amount of effort you put into solving a problem properly.
I put a lot of effort into the exercise, but then I just got lucky.

Khama....

[solarstabi]

Graeme,
The only solution to this problem is longer studs than OE D3 ones.
If someone offers that solution, then any aftermarket alloy wheel (with an offset close to OE 52mm) using a 14x1.5mm stud with conical wheel nut (which engages at least 14mm) will work and be legal.
Longer studs would mean that BMW X5 17x7.5" wheels (quite cheap) are suitable & legal.
As would be Performance Wheels' BB6 17x8" wheels.

Anyone with BB6 alloys should check with their insurer (ultimately VicRoads or equivalent in other states) if 9mm nut engagement is adequate if the legislation states 14mm.

From an engineering point of view, it might be "adequate".
Legally, & insurance-wise, it wont, without an independent engineering certification.

[Graeme]

After having another look and measure of the BMW rims, I am quite comfortable with enlarging the holes to take LR nuts, but would definitely not just use the tapered nuts supplied with the rims. If people are not having reliability (cf legal) problems with using tapered nuts on std studs then IMO enlarging the stud holes would have totally benign effects. However its most likely a moot point for me because I have a D4 on order.

[Leo]

What's the load rating on BMW rims?

[rmp]

The insurance companies will only be concerned if this issue was the cause of a crash, for example if a wheel came off.

Having checked this out the BB-6s are indeed 6 turns. Haven't checked the OEMs but their design is such that the rim rests entirely on the nut, which is why it screws in further.

The exact wording is from VSI-8:

"Wheel nuts must engage the thread of the wheel stud for at least the same length as the original wheel nut and have the same taper as the mating wheel stud hole."

It goes on to say that "redrilling wheels, hubs, drums discs or axle flanges is not permitted".

Thus the BB-6s don't comply, and can't be made to comply either.

So, Performance will be getting a "please explain" call on Monday. Watch this space.

Well done whoever picked this up. I had read the VSIs a few times but missed that one.

[Ashes]

Hey guys, great reading;)

I read a lot about potential insurance claims being denied because of modification X...

How often in reality does this actually occur. Anyone definately, absolutely, genuinely, absolutely really know of a claim being denied due to 3 nut revolutions on a stud?

[CaverD3]

If a wheel fell off or broke I guess they would notice that. :lol:

[rmp]

Hey guys, great reading;)

I read a lot about potential insurance claims being denied because of modification X...

How often in reality does this actually occur. Anyone definately, absolutely, genuinely, absolutely really know of a claim being denied due to 3 nut revolutions on a stud?

I don't know of any. I have checked with the insurers, two of them, and here's a quote:

"Insurers MAY not deny a claim if the unroadworthy component was not a prime cause of the accident. I.e. Bigger tyres but hit in rear while at traffic lights - very few would seek to deny. But if have illegal lift kit and rolled on corner - expect issues"

So...under what circumstances could missing 3 turns of a wheelnut become an issue? Only if the wheel came off the vehicle. Not unknown, but hardly the case of being involved in a smack and then having it denied.

[Jamo]

It's an interesting issue and I'll be waiting to see what Performance Wheels have to say.

At the end of the day, if the thread engagement is illegal then the product cannot be used 'for the purpose for which it's intended' and therefore the manufacturer must rectify.

I've never had an issue with mine, but then I carry my torque wrenches under the back seat and check the wheel nut torque when I check the pressures.

(I had a stud stripped once when the BB6 were on, but that was due to an overzealous workshop apprentice wielding a rattle gun!)

[rmp]

Should also point out that the insurer could choose to deny a claim, but then again pretty much every car on the road may have some roadworthy problem, even if it's a blown globe which instantly makes you illegal.

Performance don't actually market the BB-6 for the D3, unless I'm mistaken, so they may say "we sell the wheels at this spec and haven't warranted it for any given vehicle". But then the onus goes on the fitters, who usually promote themselves as "tyre professionals" and thus people who should know this stuff inside out.

We'll see.

[rmp]

Spoke to Performance today, then emailed them VSI8 and VSI26 and excerpted the wording.

Seems the LR nut is a barrel nut, designed such that the rim rests on the body of the nut itself. Apparently the industry is moving away from that design, and Performance followed suit, and their testing has worked. However the issue is not the safety of the wheel per se -- it is compliance with the regulations. Pointed out the BB-6 is is not legal on D3s.

I'll post here when I get a response.

[PCH]

Wow this is quite an interesting thread.

I'd say Jamo and I were pretty much the first around to find that BB6 rims suit the LR design with small hub flang, adequate load rating and acceptable wheel offset. I remember the dilemina at the time was just finding a rim to suit the flang and load rating then making sure the offset was allowalbe and now to find out the nuts are 3 turns short is mind boggling.

Like Jamo I've done many thousands of km's (sealed and unsealed) without a wheel nut ever coming loose - let's hope it stays that way in the future.

Chris

[CaverD3]

The trouble with regulations is that it is a one size fits all. A safe modification gets caught up as well.
The nuts are unlikely to come off I would think and all the nuts do is hold the rim to the hub the wheel is held by friction between the two (like bolting structural timber sections together) the surface area is what determines the load rating.
If you got an engineer to say it was as safe as the original, would it be legal?

Maybe the wheel suppliers should go for a type approval.

[Mark_T]

Could you not have longer studs fitted?

On my old drag car I ran Moroso wheel studs that came in a variety of different lengths. Not certain about the legality but it could be an option.

Mark

[TDV6]

Toyota and Holden have vehicles with 14mm by 1.5 twist studs, but whether they fit the LR housing and are longer than the LR studs, I do not know.

When I was having my caravan built I got 14x1.5 studs from Toyota, but had to scrap the idea as I could not get a van hub that could carry the heavy load of the van and have a 72mm spigot bore diameter.

Ryall

[Hooroo]

Graeme, I took a BMW X5 wheel to my local (highly-reputable) wheel repair/modification business to see if modifying (machining) it is possible to allow OE nuts to fit. No way, as there isn't enough spare alloy material to be machined out & still leave strong base for nut to engage, either with standard LR nut or with turned-down nut/washer that fits into the narrower BMW hole.
His opinion: "Studs are too short to use on unmachined wheel, & wheel has insufficient alloy material to allow machining. 6 turns not enough or legal to use. Don't do it!"

G'day. So did the set of OE 17" rims that you bought bolt straight on without alterations? If so, any chance you could provide details of the rims and studs? And what tyres did you mate with them? (I've been looking for an answer to this for ages)

[solarstabi]

OE 17x7" rims are as fitted to D3 S model. Bolt straight on, same wheel nuts, offset 53mm (18" are 52mm I think).
So if you can get'm, go for it. Hard to get, though. Some LR specialists import them, when they can find them.

[rmp]

Spoke to Performance today, then emailed them VSI8 and VSI26 and excerpted the wording.

Seems the LR nut is a barrel nut, designed such that the rim rests on the body of the nut itself. Apparently the industry is moving away from that design, and Performance followed suit, and their testing has worked. However the issue is not the safety of the wheel per se -- it is compliance with the regulations. Pointed out the BB-6 is is not legal on D3s.

I'll post here when I get a response.

This has not been forgotten, am talking to Performance...will update when discussions have finished.

[rmp]

Nearly finished. Expect to have some interesting news soon and a good solution.

[Hooroo]

Nearly finished. Expect to have some interesting news soon and a good solution.

G'day RMP, thanks for informative Tyre Talk pt2 in the Oct Overlander 4WD (that has just landed on my London doorstep and been read cover-to-cover in one go). I can see you're busy collecting and collating info for the D3/D4 and look forward to the reading the result of your efforts :BigThumb:

When I get back to Oz and get another Disco to fit out I will be getting an extra rim/tyre set to put on for trips. They will need to go straight on with NO MODS and be LEGAL.

Would you also mind addressing why smaller rims are better than larger ones for 4WDing (other that tyre availability)? And looking at vehicles in the Vic High Country it seems like 32" tyres are 'small' these days! Crikey...

[CaverD3]

Smaller rims give taller side walls.
Tyre diameter can remain the same.
Larger diameters give greater clearance but affect the gearing and speedo.

[rmp]

G'day RMP, thanks for informative Tyre Talk pt2 in the Oct Overlander 4WD (that has just landed on my London doorstep and been read cover-to-cover in one go). I can see you're busy collecting and collating info for the D3/D4 and look forward to the reading the result of your efforts :BigThumb:

When I get back to Oz and get another Disco to fit out I will be getting an extra rim/tyre set to put on for trips. They will need to go straight on with NO MODS and be LEGAL.

Would you also mind addressing why smaller rims are better than larger ones for 4WDing (other that tyre availability)? And looking at vehicles in the Vic High Country it seems like 32" tyres are 'small' these days! Crikey...

All that is covered in the November issue out soon and that is also the start of a three-part listing of just about every tyre for 17s and greater. But in brief; the greater the distance between the rim and the road the better for various reasons including rim damage, and also to do with ride quality over rough roads. There are downsides but not relevant to offroad touring. Larger diameter tyres are IMHO not required for a D3 to navigate HC tracks; they aren't legal and you can't go very much greater anyway without rubbing. If people want large-tyred toys buy an old Patrol, Disco and have at it, the D3 isn't for that use again for various reasons such as clearance, effect on the electronics. I have driven stock-standard cars all over the HC for years and had no problem driving tracks.

[Hooroo]

Robert, excellent advise, thanks. I also like to keep a car as standard as possible.

I headed into a wet, gnarly section of Vic HC the first weekend I had my white, V6 S in 2005. It ended hung up on ruts (caused by huge wheels) and being 'assisted' up a particularly slippery rutted section by a Patrol (lets keep that between us!!!:wallbash:). I groaned every time the bottom of the vehicle dragged over rocks in the middle of the rutted tracks. Ouch.

Of course the 'S' had no air suspension. So when I got home I gave the car to Pedders who stopped normal production and used my car to design new +2" springs. Top mob. These worked well on the Hay River track shortly afterwards. It would have been irresponsible to attempt the trip without the lift. Now I've bitten the bullet and had air suspension models since and they are ace (regardless of electronic blips). And luckily all models have air now.

Two more question though RMP in case you've already got the answers:

It's my belief that the D4 has new braking package (Oct OV4WD article). (Does this include the 2.7lt?) If so, will I need to start a whole new search if I want after market wheels?

I suspect the smallest wheels for the D4 are 18"s? Is the hub the same as the D3? (I'll keep an eye on topic 'D3/D4 after market WHEEL OPTIONS' too)

FYI people: From RMP in Overlander 4wd forum: 'As for the D4...the TDV6 2.7 takes the same rims as the D3, unlike the 3.0.'

Talk about a can of worms. I know I'm not the smartest kid on the block, but :spudnikdizzy:

The search for perfection continues :twobeers:

[CaverD3]

D4 3.0 will only take 19 inch rims. :o:mad:

[gghaggis]

Larger diameter tyres are IMHO not required for a D3 to navigate HC tracks; they aren't legal and you can't go very much greater anyway without rubbing. If people want large-tyred toys buy an old Patrol, Disco and have at it, the D3 isn't for that use again for various reasons such as clearance, effect on the electronics. I have driven stock-standard cars all over the HC for years and had no problem driving tracks.

I'll respectfully disagree with this. Although I'm not familiar with what's required for the Vic high country, many of us here in the West run slightly oversize tyres (265/70/17 = 31.9" diameter) without any drama. Much needed on sandy tracks (of which we have a few 1000 km's of!). I've done it for 4 years, with no drivetrain/electronics/warrany issues - I've not heard of anyone who has. In my experience, the electronics cope fine with the larger diameter. I've had 32.5" tyres on for competition work and the traction control, hill descent etc worked flawlessly (much to the dismay of the local Nissan/Yota drivers).

Cheers,

Gordon

[rmp]

I'll respectfully disagree with this. Although I'm not familiar with what's required for the Vic high country, many of us here in the West run slightly oversize tyres (265/70/17 = 31.9" diameter) without any drama. Much needed on sandy tracks (of which we have a few 1000 km's of!). I've done it for 4 years, with no drivetrain/electronics/warrany issues - I've not heard of anyone who has. In my experience, the electronics cope fine with the larger diameter. I've had 32.5" tyres on for competition work and the traction control, hill descent etc worked flawlessly (much to the dismay of the local Nissan/Yota drivers).

Cheers,

Gordon

I don't think we're disagreeing, Gordon. My main point is that larger tyres aren't *required* for general offroad touring. If people want to fit them fine, but I reckon you could get a D3 around pretty much any touring track in Australia without, and I don't think you're arguing against that? My second point is that you can't really go much larger on the D3 anyway (leaving aside compliance with roadworthy which pretty much limits to stock). When I said if you want to play "large tyres" I mean 35s plus, not 32s which are these days not large at all.

As for sand I've not found any issue with the standard diameter tyres on any car I've driven on many beaches, dunes and deserts, including softroaders. Actually one exception, low-profile tyres, but that's not a diameter problem.

Re the electronics. They are not designed for 32.5" tyres but that's not to say they won't work with that diameter and I'm well aware many people run such a tyre with no compliants at all. However, the point here is a question of degree. As one example, the ABS, ESC etc work with vehicle speed which is calculated from rotations of the wheels. Non-standard diameters throw this calculation out, therefore the vehicle is travelling at a different speed than the computers think it is. As there are small variations in tyre diameter from tyre to tyre and through wear etc there would be some tolerance of course, but the difference in actual vs calculated speed has to decrease the effectiveness of the likes of ESC. I'm in no doubt about that -- but is it sufficient a decrease to be concerned about, so far outside the designed tolerances? Probably not.

Anyway each to their own, larger tyres certainly have advantages offroad and I know many people happily run them, but my point is they aren't required if you just want to go touring offroad. Of course, I have met some would say you'd really need a four-inch lift with 35" tyres for touring, and others who run 37s on their tourers -- well everyone has their own opinion (and budget)!

[rmp]

Two more question though RMP in case you've already got the answers:

It's my belief that the D4 has new braking package (Oct OV4WD article). (Does this include the 2.7lt?) If so, will I need to start a whole new search if I want after market wheels?

I suspect the smallest wheels for the D4 are 18"s? Is the hub the same as the D3? (I'll keep an eye on topic 'D3/D4 after market WHEEL OPTIONS' too)



1. The D4/RRS TDV6 3.0 min diameter is 19".
2. The D4 TDV6 2.7 min diameter is 17" (no RRS 2.7)
3. The D3/RRS TDV6 2.7 min diameter is 17".
4. The D3 V8 min diameter is 18".
5. The TDV8/Supercharged models are min diameter 19".

At this rate on the D5 Land Rover will be supplying large alloy circles with black paint on the outside and calling it a tyre.

The D4 3.0 has a new brake package, not the 2.7. Basically the faster a car goes, the more effective the brakes it has, and the usual way to make brakes more effective is larger rotors and calipers, thus increasing the minimum rim diameter. The 3.0 is quicker than the 2.7, hence the difference. This is all very well if you're dealing drugs or cruising the street, or trying to set a laptime on a racetrack, but not so good out in the rough. That said some tyre companies are doing their best with the bling-sized rims, but there is only so much one can do before the laws of physics start to intervene.

[gghaggis]

Hi Robert,

No, I don't think there's any real disagreement - if you want to tour a D3 around Australia, it will easily do it on the std 235/70/17 tyre size (although I'd recommend upgrading the rubber to a decent AT).

However, I personally prefer the D3 on 265s. It rides a little smoother, the 3 ~ 4% difference in rotational speed is easily handled by the electronics (if it really bothers someone, you can actually change the base tyre size the software algorithms use, providing you have the right interface equipment). And on the more difficult tracks, the slight height increase is quite useful. For one thing, the car triggers extended profile less often. One of the weak points of the D3 is ramp-over angle, leading to damage to the fuel tank and/or compressor on these sorts of tracks. Still, I agree that no one would really call a 32" tyre 'big' these days.

On a confirmatory note, one of the dealers here is fitting a D4 2.7 with 17" rims for a few days testing (I think they come std with the 18's?), and isn't anticipating any problems as the disc/caliper size is the same as the TDV6 D3. But then who wants a D4 with a D3 diesel?

The 18" rims used on the Bowler Nemesis should fit a D4 3.0, as they're running the RRS supercharged braking system. That could make the D4 a little more acceptable for touring.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

.....On a confirmatory note, one of the dealers here is fitting a D4 2.7 with 17" rims for a few days testing (I think they come std with the 18's?), and isn't anticipating any problems as the disc/caliper size is the same as the TDV6 D3. But then who wants a D4 with a D3 diesel?

The 18" rims used on the Bowler Nemesis should fit a D4 3.0, as they're running the RRS supercharged braking system. That could make the D4 a little more acceptable for touring.

Cheers,

Gordon
Has the dealer tried to fit D3/D4 18" on a 3.0 yet?

[CaverD3]

I think the supercharged RRS disks are smaller than the D4 ones.
Downgrading the size of disk would not make the brakes any less safe, especially if you put bembos on, but I am surre you would not be allowed to do it.:angel:

[Graeme]

Brembos are the same 360mm. D3 V8s at 350mm would be indiscernibly smaller yet fit 18" for sure if need be and there is a couple of tyre options in 18". Maybe 2.7 brakes are OK with an engineering cert, but then there's the insurance co and warranty too for a while. 18" that fit without any changes is definitely the best solution unless 17" is a must-have.
I still hold hope that D3/D4 18" will fit.

[sniegy]

Graeme, All,

The D4 with the 3.0L Diesel will NOT allow the fitment of 18" rims.
Its not the diameter of the disc u need to worry about its the new brake caliper that gets in the way. Its huge!:o
On the 19" rim there is only maximum 5mm between them.
The disc will alow 18's no problems...it the Caliper that wont allow it.

The 2.7 will still alow 17's i think, havent had a chance to play with this one yet, but visually it looks like the brakes are different but will still allow 17's to be fitted. Will advise when i have time to play....Many vehicle to ready for delivery......;)

BTW the 3.0L goes great....:D:D:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p:p:p:wasntme:

[Graeme]

Geez Sneigy, you could have let me live in hope a bit longer! No good hoping to grind a mm or 2 off the calliper either with that much of a shortfall.

[gghaggis]

The Nemesiss uses 360mm discs with the Brembo calipers on the front (I think the rear is a little smaller) + the new 5Ltr supercharged motor. The 18" rims are a special edition, but not made by LR, and shod with Kumho 265/70/18 AT's or MT's. I'll see if I can get any info on them - they _might_ fit .......

Cheers,

Gordon

[CaverD3]

There is hope yet.:) :BigThumb:

[gghaggis]

This was the original news story in the UK:

http://www.comp.co.uk/news/detail.asp?newsStory=<b>PD1880+8+X+18+RALLY+RAID+WHEEL<%2Fb>

I've emailed them an enquiry - if they get back to me, I'll post it up here.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

They sound promising, although at 180GBP each from Rallysport.com plus shipping (esp air freight) plus import duty could make a set of 5 a bit expensive.

[gghaggis]

Hmmm, a lot of conflicting statements flying around the internet re whether the Compomotive rims even fit the RRS SC. So far the story seems to be:

1. The Compomotive PD1880 will only fit the RRS SC if you remove the anti-vibration block on the rear of the caliper and either:
a) replace it with a reshaped one (so it doesn't stick out)
b) re-attach it upside-down.

2. There is a Compomotive MD model (880?) that will clear, but is not rated for the weight
3. The Advanti Photon 8x18 will also fit, if you do either of the mods in 1) above.

No one has the exact dimensions of the D4 3.0 caliper vs the RRS SC, so I guess the only thing to do is wander down and measure them. Hi ho .........

Cheers,

Gordon

[rmp]

If the brakes require any modification at all to fit 18s (even "doesn't change anything" mods), then consider the conversation you may need to have with your insurer, Land Rover for warranty, or the police. Not saying don't do it, each to their own, just consider the consequences.

[gghaggis]

If the brakes require any modification at all to fit 18s (even "doesn't change anything" mods), then consider the conversation you may need to have with your insurer, Land Rover for warranty, or the police. Not saying don't do it, each to their own, just consider the consequences.

Yes, probably a race/competition mod only (although note that Bowler do it for their road cars - the Nemesis EXR). But I'll keep checking - if LR redesigned the anti-vibration block for the D4, it may not need modification, as it is the only thing that prevents these rims from fitting (and the original design is pretty foolish - it only relies on the mass/momentum attached to the caliper, not the precise shape, so why make it stick out so much??).

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

The 3.0/5.0 D4 doesn't use Brembo front callipers, but a new 2-piston sliding calliper. Thus it shouldn't protrude out as far from the disc but could be larger in diameter although the release info states that LR have reduced the size of the brake package compared with the Brembo setup on the RRS.


A new, larger brake system has been introduced along with the new engines, to cater
for the Discovery 4's enhanced performance and to improve braking feel.
This new system is inspired by the four-piston, opposed-calliper performance system
used on the Range Rover Sport. It employs a 360mm ventilated front disc with a new,
cast iron twin-piston sliding calliper – which serves to reduce the size of the front brake
package while preserving its stiffness, which in turn helps achieve excellent pedal feel.

[gghaggis]

The 3.0/5.0 D4 doesn't use Brembo front callipers, but a new 2-piston sliding calliper. Thus it shouldn't protrude out as far from the disc but could be larger in diameter although the release info states that LR have reduced the size of the brake package compared with the Brembo setup on the RRS.


I'll have a demo D4 and an old RRS SC to compare with next week - I've also got one of the Avanti Photon rims, so we'll see ....

Cheers,

Gordon

[rmp]

Update on the Performance rims. They have been redesigned so that the nut engages for the correct length by redesigning the hole in the rim using the existing nuts. A quick visual inspection is all I've managed so far, but shortly I will be able to verify this. Other specs remain unchanged.

[Leo]

Brakes of the 3.0 D4 are smaller in overall dia than the old Brembos on S/C and TDV8 RRS. Let us know what you find, gghaggis.

With the right offset, even a 17" might fit, would be worth trying 17" steel wheels too.

[rmp]

As Sniegy said, it's not the diameter of the disc it's the size of the caliper. Having eyeballed a 19" there is very little space left, and Land Rover confirmed 18s (theirs) do not fit. That's not to say aftermarket 18s wouldn't, but I just can't see 17s going on.

Also note that any rim checking needs to be done on both front and rear as they have different diameters and calipers.

[Graeme]

Gghaggis,
If you had an 18" D3 rim at your disposal, I would be interested to know if it fits on the rear and that it actually does not fit on the front, as the 18" could have a different inside shape to the 19".

[gghaggis]

Gghaggis,
If you had an 18" D3 rim at your disposal, I would be interested to know if it fits on the rear and that it actually does not fit on the front, as the 18" could have a different inside shape to the 19".

I'll see if I can find one.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Frisbee]

Hi folks.

Slightly off topic - I have some 17" steel wheels for my D3 which I bought last year for use on Fraser etc.

I'm slightly worried that they are no longer legal (due to their offset) and was wondering where I can buy the Performance BB6's from in QLD? I take it that they are now OK with the modification to the "nut holes".

Also, how much are we paying for them.

Cheers

Fris

[CaverD3]

Why wouldn't the wheels be legal, I would think you would need more than the same turns to tighten.
Also you are in Queensland not Vic?

[Frisbee]

I thought I had read that steels are illegal due to their offset (under some new laws).

I'm in QLD...

[TDV6]

G'day Frisbee,

To be legal in QLD the offset must be between 40 and 53mm positive offset, you are allowed 26mm overall increase and as 53 is standard and half of 26 is 13 which is where the 40mm offset comes from.

My BB6's are 45mm offset.

In NSW its 25mm overall so thats 40.5mm to 53mm.

see QLD and NSW Gov documentation listed below.

Ryall


Page 18 in QLD doco,

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/ebde8d0521b67c6/Pdf_modification_motor_vehicles2.pdf

Page 2 in the NSW Doco,

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi09_rev4.pdf

[Frisbee]

Thanks for that TDV6 - I'll have to check my steel rims and see what they are...

Fris

EDIT:

Just measured them and the the offset is only 30mm.

I bought these last September. Would they have been legal then? If not perhaps I can have a discussion with the Bob Jane store concerned.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Actually, a closer measure with a straight edge would seem to indicate that the offset is 38mm. Does that seem right?

Also, I've just spoken with a tyre dealer who says that 38mm should be legal. Doh! I've read the Qld Transport documentation and from what I can gleam TDV6's comments (above) in respect to the minimum of 40mm seems right.

[Graeme]

Also, I've just spoken with a tyre dealer who says that 38mm should be legal. Doh! I've read the Qld Transport documentation and from what I can gleam TDV6's comments (above) in respect to the minimum of 40mm seems right.
I doubt that a tape measure could accurately enough detect the 4mm excessive track width for it to be a problem.

[TDV6]

G'day Frisbee,

My understanding is that the wheel properties should be stamped somewhere on the rim, so there should be something that tells you the offset for that rim.

I have phoned Qld transport (technical section) in the past to be told the 13mm per side was what Qld was going with.

Regarding the proposed new "National Code" bits may or maynot be implemented.

I'll be interested to see what BJ comes up with if the rims you have are not QLD legal.

Regards,

Ryall

[TDV6]

Frisbee, I forgot to add that the driver for me to make sure the rims were legal is the fear of having an insurance claim rejected. I am sure that the car would be fine with your current set of rims as LR tend to over engineer things, however insurance can be looking for an out so they can reject any claims.

Ryall

[Frisbee]

Yeah, that's my main concern. The steel 17" wheels are only used off-road and I hate to have a claim knocked back on a technicality.

They are Dynamic wheels but I can't see the offset anywhere on them. Anyone have clue where to look?

[rmp]

Update. Today I saw the revised BB-6s, and tested them; 10 turns to tighten, so that's one more turn than the stock rim. Within limits. They have bevelled the nut and rim so it goes further into the rim, as opposed to simply making the backplate thinner.

However, that particular set of rims were at a 38mm offset and with a copy of VSI8 I explained that that gave a track increase of greater than the legal limit of 25mm. Now awaiting a set that has the correct offset, AND the correct nut engagement.

[rmp]

New set will have a 42mm offset, so 53-42 = 11 x 2 = 22mm increase in track, within the 25mm limit.

All good...

[Frisbee]

Thanks for keeping us posted rmp.

Cheers

[Graeme]

I've found some tapered nuts with correct length shanks to give the extra threads for the BMW rims. The nuts are longer than needed, protruding from the rim like D2 nuts so the supplier is checking if shorter ones are available.

[djhampson]

Dumb question... what is the offset actually measuring? Offset from what?

[Bushwanderer]

I've found some tapered nuts with correct length shanks to give the extra threads for the BMW rims. The nuts are longer than needed, protruding from the rim like D2 nuts so the supplier is checking if shorter ones are available.

Hi Graeme,
I'd be interested in the outcome of your search.

I have 4x BMW rims stored down in Melbourne, awaiting collection. I have heard that the BMW boss hole is larger than that for the LR rims and so they can't be centred on the boss. Is this your experience? If so, using "centring" nuts would be important.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Jamo]

Dumb question... what is the offset actually measuring? Offset from what?

It's the offset of the centre of the rim (where it bolts to the hub) from an imaginary line down the exact centre of the rim.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/95.jpg

[Graeme]

Hi Bushwanderer,

The nuts are Topline ET style conical nuts in 14mm x 1.5 pitch and available from Antique Tyres in Melbourne, the Oz agent for Topline nuts. There's a possibility that the rim holes will need enlarging to fit the shank. They are 60mm total length.

I haven't tried them on the D4 yet due to the calipers but I understood the centering hole was the correct size. As fitted to the X5, the centering hole is used although it uses bolts, not nuts. I'll be trying one on both front and rear soon after temporarily removing the calipers to check clearance for the rear caliper bracket (might not haveto get 2.7 rear brackets) and both stone guards so will post my findings. Several D3 owners have fitted them using just the too-short cone nuts without centering rings.

[Tombie]

You MUST use an adapter ring in the centre of the hub...

[TDV6]

Wheel specs are as follows:-

Offset = 53mm
Stud (M14 x1.5) hole (x5) PCD = 120mm (M14 = 14mm; 1,5 = one ane a half turns twist for the stud) (x5 means 5 studs)
Mounting face diameter = 163mm
Spigot bore diameter = 72.63/72.56mm (for a vehicle spigot diameter of 72.5/72.47mm)

But this does not mention the "X" factor which is a an approximate measurement of the clearance required for spokes to clear the brake calipers, small, medium and large is the best explanation I have yet had. The D3 I am told is large so what is the D4 (extreme?), please correct me if you have more current info.

Ryall

PCD is Pitch Circle Diameter which is a circular line drawn through the center of the studs.

[Slunnie]

Wheel specs are as follows:-

Offset = 53mm
Stud (M14 x1.5) hole (x5) PCD = 120mm (M14 = 14mm; 1,5 = one ane a half turns twist for the stud) (x5 means 5 studs)
Mounting face diameter = 163mm
Spigot bore diameter = 72.63/72.56mm (for a vehicle spigot diameter of 72.5/72.47mm)

But this does not mention the "X" factor which is a an approximate measurement of the clearance required for spokes to clear the brake calipers, small, medium and large is the best explanation I have yet had. The D3 I am told is large so what is the D4 (extreme?), please correct me if you have more current info.

Ryall

PCD is Pitch Circle Diameter which is a circular line drawn through the center of the studs.
M14x1.5 means the largest diameter of the thread is 14mm as stated, but the 1.5 indicated the width of the thread in mm - also being the distance between the tops of each thread - ie turn the nut once and it will advance 1.5mm

[Graeme]

Otherwise known as the pitch...

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
Thanks for the update. :BigThumb:

I look forward to hearing of further progress.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Bushwanderer]

You MUST use an adapter ring in the centre of the hub...

Hi Tombie,
Thanks for the feedback. :BigThumb:

Do you know where such adapter rings can be obtained?

Best Wishes,
Peter

[rmp]

Update on the Performance rims. They have been redesigned so that the nut engages for the correct length by redesigning the hole in the rim using the existing nuts. A quick visual inspection is all I've managed so far, but shortly I will be able to verify this. Other specs remain unchanged.

Update update. The Performance BB-6 Rims are now, finally, being manufactured with a legal offset (+45), legal load rating (1400kg) and a legal amount of turns per nut. Make sure you specify all three at the time of ordering and reject any rim that does not comply.

[trobbo]

who is selling them and how much?

[rmp]

who is selling them and how much?

Performance Wheels (http://www.performancewheels.com.au/)

[Disco4SE]

Do they do an 18" rim to suit the D4 3.0 ??????????

[rmp]

Do they do an 18" rim to suit the D4 3.0 ??????????

I'm going to have to put my mod hat on here and request you search the forum, or even any of the current threads and you'll see that question well and truly answered. Please do this before asking questions.

[Frisbee]

Might be a silly question but what nuts do you use on the BB-6's?

PS I did read through this thread and ran a search but I can't see anything on the subject.

[rmp]

Might be a silly question but what nuts do you use on the BB-6's?

PS I did read through this thread and ran a search but I can't see anything on the subject.

The nuts supplied with the rims.

[Graeme]

Hi Graeme,
I'd be interested in the outcome of your search.

I have 4x BMW rims stored down in Melbourne, awaiting collection. I have heard that the BMW boss hole is larger than that for the LR rims and so they can't be centred on the boss. Is this your experience? If so, using "centring" nuts would be important.

Best Wishes,
Peter
After waiting forever for the elusive Topline nuts, I've found a US supplier (brandsport.com) with full specs for nuts which should fit the BMW X5 rims without modification. They are Gorilla brand M14x1.5 60 degree tapered nuts with 8mm shank extension (5+ threads) and shank dia 16mm. At most the rim holes will need a little reaming to ease fitment. I've ordered 24 for 60 USD incl freight. There wont be much metal in the shank but if necessary a long version with 17.5mm dia shank can be obtained from the same supplier. These would require hole enlargement of about 2mm dia.

The Series 2 BMW rims that I have fit the D4 centering boss perfectly.

[Graeme]

RTA now says that an engineer's certificate is required. This doesn't surprise me as the regulations state that braking capacity cannot be reduced without a certificate. The compliance plate approval number is inconclusive as the same plate is used for the S, SE and HSE verisons.

[djhampson]

Sorry Graeme but what do you need the Eng Cert for?

To change the wheel size or to change the wheels?

[CaverD3]

Brakes, always thought that RTA would require engineers cert. Given the same braking capacity as the V8 D3 ( if V8 size disks are used-up to 18 inch wheels)I would have thought that it would not be a problem.

[djhampson]

Oh cool.... I'm looking into buying a set of X5 rims and getting the nuts you mentioned.

Thanks very much for your info.

[Graeme]

Yes, any reduction in braking capacity is what I understood was the reason. An optional upgade brake "package" does not require a certificate. Whilst LR's compliance approval application for the D4 shows that all wheel sizes are applicable to all engine variants, LR commented that the 3.0 and 5.0 engines will only be available with 19" and 20" wheels, along with manual gearboxes and coil suspension only available with the 2.7!

Booster, m/c and hoses have the same part# so the engineer with whom I've been speaking can think of no reason why he wouldn't pass it. Now I just need to be sure that I want to have the lesser brakes, especially as I discovered from the compliance approval application that the 3.0 rear discs are larger too.

[Graeme]

Oh cool.... I'm looking into buying a set of X5 rims and getting the nuts you mentioned.

Thanks very much for your info.
If I decide not to do the conversion, I'll have a couple of sets of BMW rims for sale. However one reason for doing the conversion is the ready availability of the BMW rims, as long as the nuts are as specified. I could even be looking for 2 or 3 more rims if I get to have different diameter everyday and outback tyres, such as 255/65 normal use and 265/70 tough times ones.

Edit: I will be continuing with my 2.7 brake conversion and have abandoned the idea of getting 18" rims. The ET nuts have been confirmed as in stock and are being despatched immediately.

[djhampson]

Well I bought these (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320618292502&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT) of eBay last night. Hope to pick them up soon.

[djhampson]

Graeme - Could you post a link to the correct wheel nuts on brandsport.com please?

I'm not entirely sure which nuts have the 8mm shank extension.

[Graeme]

I ordered the 1.4" ones - centre picture.

14mm x 1.50 E/T Ultra Mag Seat Lug Nuts (http://www.brandsport.com/etultramagseat4.html)

[djhampson]

Thanks!

Anyone want to combine an order with me? Shipping is epxense so it would save some dollars!

[Graeme]

Shipping of the nuts? Look at the various options - last is best by heaps! 60 USD for 24 nuts and shipping.

[djhampson]

Yeah but at $37 it costs more to ship than to buy 25 nuts.

Buying 50 only increases shipping to $47.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi dj,
That sounds like a good deal on the rims. :BigThumb:

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Graeme]

Yeah but at $37 it costs more to ship than to buy 25 nuts.

Buying 50 only increases shipping to $47.
I thought 60 USD was enough to invest for nuts that I'd throw away if I don't think the shank wall has enough strength. I almost bought the taller ones with the thicker shank but decided to give these a try first. I'll be real happy at less than $3 each if they do the job.

[Graeme]

Well I bought these (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320618292502&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT) of eBay last night. Hope to pick them up soon.
That's a good price. I haven't seen that pattern before.

[djhampson]

Picked up the rims this evening. They don't look to bad. Fitted onto the hub nicely. The LR nuts didn't fit.

The centre cap is a different size so I'll still need to find a way to get rid of the BMW Logo. Spray paint and a LR sticker is one option I've thought of.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/209.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/210.jpg
Sorry for the crappy photos... couldn't be bothered to the camera out so the iphone had to do.

[Graeme]

The tyres look a bit small for the D3!

My 2nd set of rims came with an aftermarket wheel cap. Both sets came from the same tyre outlet and I had asked if they had something to hide the BMW name.

[djhampson]

The tyres are 235/65/R17 so they are 5% too small for the D3. The D3 placard calls for 235/70/R17.

[Graeme]

RRS size - 29"

[djhampson]

Doubt I can use them on the D3... the tyre is 25mm smaller than the D3 placard so Qld Transport will get their kncikers in a knot.

I could throw them on Dad's RRS tho... There is probably 10-20k of of usable tread left on the BMW rims. Would be a shame to waste them.

[gps-au]

Doubt I can use them on the D3... the tyre is 25mm smaller than the D3 placard so Qld Transport will get their kncikers in a knot.

Biggest worry is to get the speedo recalibrated (thou it should still be in recalibration range)

I struck a similar problem when I was forced to retyre with smaller HT's because I really couldn't wait for 2 weeks on the supply chain.

[djhampson]

Speedo doesn't worry me... I use GPS most of the time.

And most of my driving is in peak hour so speed is the least of my problems.

The main issue is that Qld Transport only allow 15mm either way from the tyre placard.

[Graeme]

I ordered the 1.4" ones - centre picture.

14mm x 1.50 E/T Ultra Mag Seat Lug Nuts (http://www.brandsport.com/etultramagseat4.html)
My nuts arrived and they appear to be suitable. They are not a tight fit in the rims, having plenty of clearance so no possibility of binding. Without having done a test fitting, I can see at least 4 more threads before where the standard acorn's thread starts. The nuts screw smoothly onto a sample stud and the shank stops well short (approx 3mm) of the bottom of the hole in the rim - about the same distance that LR nuts short in LR rims. They only have full taper seat width at the 6 points whereas some nuts have a full circle of seat so I would regularly check for a while that they stay tight.

Overall, just what's needed!

Edit: Test fitting (finger tight) reveals 10.5 threads of engagement cf 9 with the std 19" rims & nuts. Nuts are a fairly snug fit in the holes with multiple nuts fitted but no problem. The top of the nut protrudes sufficiently to enable easy starting on the thread using fingers.

[djhampson]

Awesome news. How long did they take to arrive?

[Graeme]

They were despatched Tues 23rd after a 1-day delay due to a misinterpretted email of mine where it was thought that I might not want them afterall.

[Graeme]

Some pics showing the nuts & rims.

http://www.aulro.com/app/data/1098/IMGP2076.JPG
It will work better with a tyre fitted and a brake calliper to stop the pads falling out.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1676.jpg
Closest nut is just started and the other one finger tight.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1677.jpg
The nut stops well short of the back of the rim.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Graeme,
Great feedback. :BigThumb:

I may have missed it, but are the nuts 22mm, as per OEM?

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Graeme]

Hi Peter,

No, 13/16" so less than 21mm. I'd expect the standard brace to stretch out of shape if used much at all.

[Bushwanderer]

Graeme,
Thanks for your reply.

I wouldn't rely on the LR socket, either.

I have bought a single-hex deep socket (actually for a rattle-gun) for the LR wheels and would be looking for something similar if I get the 13/16" nuts.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[djhampson]

Got my wheel nuts today. Threw the rims on and went for a drive. I didn't realise how noisy my GGs have gotten.

I think I'll get Cooper STs 245/70/R17s fitted next week :p

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1373.jpg

[Graeme]

Very good! I look forward to being able to fit mine.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi djh,
Good work

It sounds like Graeme's nut specification is sound.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[djhampson]

Well I drove all the way to work today and no wheels fell off so its looking good so far!

[Bushwanderer]

Hi djh,
Are you using the LR nut torque spec. of 140Nm, or other?

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Graeme]

It might be worthwhile comparing LR's 140nm with the X5 torque specs, considering the X5 uses the taper rather than LR's flat surface yet uses the same stud/bolt 14mm diameter and 1.5mm pitch. What torque for the BB-6 rims for the D3 that also use a taper? BB-6 taper might not be 60 degrees especially since the holes were modified to obtain more thread engagement.

[djhampson]

I used 140nm when I put the rims on. I don't know what the tyre place did when I got the Coopers fitted yesteday.

The STs seem ok so far. A bit more road noise then I was hoping for but then they are a bit more aggressive. Its nothing another notch on the volume dial can't fix.

[Graeme]

Pics?

[djhampson]

Only 1 for now....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1408.jpg

[Graeme]

Looks a good fit! Those STs are chunkier at the edges than I remember too.

[Bushwanderer]

X5 wheel nut torque:

From this website:
BMW Tyres | Free Mobile Fitting | Etyres (http://www.etyres.co.uk/tyres/bmw)

It would seem that the correct torque for the X5 wheel nuts is 140Nm, just like for the D3 wheels. :)

Best Wishes,
Peter

[ozscott]

Looks good mate - just had to make it a weapon offroad.

Cheers

[djhampson]

Took it offroad on Saturday to a sodden Scenic Rim Adventure Park. For those who don't know the Sunshine State isn't living up to its name.

The STs went well it was very very slippery and the mud was v. sticky.

But I did find a good way to cover up the Beamer Logo....
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/863.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/864.jpg

[Graeme]

So, not cement rendered then...

Did you get 245/70 or 265/70? They look quite large compared with what I expected.

I'm still deciding what everyday tyre I'll use - maybe even get the Pirellii ATRs again as they're now available from the US again in LT245/70 although something with more open tread would be preferable.

[CaverD3]

No, I think they are stuccoed. :D

[djhampson]

245/70.

I'm considering get a set of HT on my 18" rims and swapping to the STs for the fun stuff.

The fuel economy on these is about 1 ~ 1.5L/100km/hr worse and they are a tad noisy.

However they were a massive improvement offroad so I'm not too worried.

[PCH]

Only 1 for now....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1408.jpg

Hi There,

I would be very interested to know your ST's go in the longer term. I had a bad experience with the ST's where my first set of Coopers were ST's (245/70/17) and they cracked and chipped badly. Exclusive Tyres replaced all 5 under pro-rata warranty and then I got STT's in the same size and paid a difference of around $200 at that time. I've had 2 sets of STT's and been reasonably happy with them. The cracking and chipping never has occurred and I believe it is due to the softer anti-chip compound used.

Chris

[Gaviatrix]

Hi There,

I would be very interested to know your ST's go in the longer term. I had a bad experience with the ST's where my first set of Coopers were ST's (245/70/17) and they cracked and chipped badly. Exclusive Tyres replaced all 5 under pro-rata warranty and then I got STT's in the same size and paid a difference of around $200 at that time. I've had 2 sets of STT's and been reasonably happy with them. The cracking and chipping never has occurred and I believe it is due to the softer anti-chip compound used.

Chris

Chris, all,

I've just bought a set of LR OEM 17" rims for my MY08 TDV6 HSE and am considering tyre choices for them. I'll probably go with 245/70R17 LT as going to a 265 might be a bit wide for the 7" rim width. I'm in WA so need something good on rocky tracks and sand as well as reasonable in mud. It would also be good if they were also not too noisy for long, heavily laden road trips (5-up. sometimes towing a camper too). Chris, now are your STTs doing after a few months, and what are your thoughts about the kind of use I'm looking for? Has anyone tried the ST-Cs (which seem elsewhere to get a better rap than the STs)? Does anyone have direct experience of these against BFG MT T/A KM2, which I've also read generally good reports on, or would you say these are all too aggressive for my needs and I'd be better of with something like Bridgestone D694 or GG AT2? I've read a lot of the threads and of course there is no one definitive answer but I'd be interested in your thoughts.

I'll keep my 18" rims with their current Kumho road tyres on for pure suburban and highway use when we're not loaded to the gunnels.

Cheers, Gavin

[discojools]

I have BFG MT KM2 245/70/17 as a second set and am really happy with them.. They are quite noisy at low speeds, in fact they seem even noisier on my D4 as opposed to my old D3. Have mainly done sand stuff with them and they were excellent despite the aggressive tread. I think 265/70/17s are illegal here in Vic being more than 15mm (or is it 15%?) than standard,but they may not be in WA. Silly isn't it?

[Graeme]

or would you say these are all too aggressive for my needs and I'd be better of with something like Bridgestone D694 or GG AT2?
I wanted a medium pattern but robust tyre for most uses and got Yokohama Geolander A/T-S in LT245/70-17. I'm pleased with the openness of the tread pattern, the full-depth voids, the 3-ply sidewalls and the silica compound tread but alas can't provide any comments on their performance yet as LR still hasn't suppplied the 2.7 brake parts ordered 3 months ago that are needed to allow fitment of the 17" rims.

[rmp]

The Cooper STs are prone to chipping. Avoid. The ST-Cs are fine, but I would run STTs which as no noisier and much better offroad.

The BFG KM2s in 245/70/17 are legal in Vic (and it is 15mm). I run a set now. At 100km/h I can make out who my wife is talking to on her mobile. The tyres do not stop you keeping up with traffic around the bends and I think are quite liveable day to day, but I have a high tolerance for such things and that is subjective.

What is not subjective is the toughness of a tyre such as this and those are what you want for the Outback or extended offroading over any P-construction tyre.

I have run all the tyres mentioned above so speak from direct experience.

The rim widths for any given tyre spec can be found on the mfr website. It will be a range.

[TerryO]

Pardon my ignorance, is this often spoken about extra 15 mm diameter restriction a federal restriction or do some States (NSW's in particular) allow larger diameter tyres?

If not there are lots of illegally tyred 4x4's on the road round here.

cheers,
Terry

[Geedublya]

As far as I can determine NSW allow 50mm which is the national standard.

[Gaviatrix]

As far as I can determine NSW allow 50mm which is the national standard.

Regrettably, Geedublya, there is no national standard, and NSW doesn't allow 50mm, although WA does. Here is a useful summary (though beware, it's a few years old, and I make no representations as to its currency): http://www.toyo.com.au/TechInfoPDFs/Alternative%20Wheels%20&%20Tyres%20%20-%20Regulations.pdf

I think you're right TerryO, and many people have the potential to find their insurance invalidated if they have a bingle - which is partly why I'm being so cautious. Also, I saw your post in the other thread (should we have a sticky on tyres in this forum - yes!) and thought this review might be of interest to you: http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/tips-and-techniques/44314-tread-wars?fid=110797

I bought 4WD Action last weekend and in it was an advertorial booklet from Bridgestone which also had a summary of the regs, although I don't think it was quite accurate ....

Discojules, Graeme, rmp, thanks very much for your comments. All food for thought, and for a long session on the phone getting price comparisons. I'm going to have to get off the pot soon as the first 4 of my 17" rims are due to be delivered tomorrow :)

Cheers, Gavin

[Graeme]

I wanted a medium pattern but robust tyre for most uses and got Yokohama Geolander A/T-S in LT245/70-17. I'm pleased with the openness of the tread pattern, the full-depth voids, the 3-ply sidewalls and the silica compound tread but alas can't provide any comments on their performance yet...
After a few thousand kms on these tyres, so far very good! Their cornering grip on gravel inspires confidence unknown to me with the previous Pirelli ATRs, both on the D4 and the previous D2. They walk through slushy mud with ease but do clog quickly in clay. The carcase hasn't been put to the test in severe conditions yet so its still early days. Oh, they're fine for my driving on wet and dry bitumen too. I recall they were a little noisier on some surfaces compared with the ATRs but I no longer notice it.

[Redback]

As far as I can determine NSW allow 50mm which is the national standard.

I'm pretty sure I read a document recently, that although over 15% was illegal, a 51mm maximum was allowed on offroad vehicles.

I'm fairly sure this was the case when they were trying to introduce the VSI50 legisation AND this was an area they were trying stop, along with body and suspension lifts, as far as I'm aware, in NSW a maximum of 150mm lift is alowed but you are only allowed if it is a maximum of 50mm for each lift (ie) 50mm suspension, 50mm body and 50mm tyres, but it must be engineered if more than 2 of this combination are done, in other words you can't do 100mm on any one item.

I could be wrong though, there were so many documents flying around, it was hard to keep up:eek:

Baz.

Baz.

[discowhite]

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi09_rev4.pdf

look under minor changes to wheels.
didnt see anything pertaining to 4x4's

cheers phil

[CaverD3]

Only thing under four wheel drives:

"Four wheel drive vehicles
Except where the original manufacturer provides to the contrary, the maximum width of front wheels is the lesser
of the maximum width for rear wheels or 204mm (8 inches), the front and rear wheel widths must be the same."

[discowhite]

i took that statement as being about the ''rim'' width?
wheel to me = rim
tyre to me = tyre
as they usuall relate inches to rims and metric to tyres.
but being the rta who knows.

cheers phil

[gazm3]

Interesting discussion.

Upon strolling through the internet i found that the D3 runs exactly the same 5/120 PCD and 72.5mm bore spacing than the E36 bmw (3 series 1991-1999) - but uses M12 size bolts, so they would need some reaming. The X5 and X3 use the M14 so they would be a better bet. These rims would be a good low cost option for a 17" rim set - but you would have to get rid of the BMW badge cos it just looks wrong

If these work, also the humble commodore runs this exact PCD and centre bore spacing, which means all the young 18yo who swap thier "gay" 17x8 rims for cool 20x8 rims will mean there is an abundance of these rims available also. Ive prob got my sons old holden 17x8 rims floating around also. I know some of the designs may be average but painted black you wont notice them, and they will be perfect for some nice 265/70/17 off road tyres.:)

Graeme - do you have a link for those extended shank nuts?

Heres a list of the bmw models and offsets that are relevant.

1 Series E81/82/87/88 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 35-45

3 Series E30 M3 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 27-30

3 Series E36 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 30-47
3 Series E36 M3 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 35-47

3 Series E46 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 30-47
3 Series E46 M3 = PCD 5x120 centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. Fronts ET 30-47, Rears ET 20-27,

3 Series E90/91/92/93 = PCD 5x120, Centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 30-45
3 Series E90/92/93 M3 = PCD 5x120, Centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 34-37

5 Series E28 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 18-25

5 Series E34 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 13-20
5 Series E34 M5 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread.

5 Series E39 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 74.0mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 15-25 (would need hubcentric spacer 72.5-74mm)
5 Series E39 M5 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5.0mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 15-25

5 Series E60/61 = PCD 5x120 centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 15-32
5 Series E60 M5 (Saloon) = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 12-32
5 Series E61 M5 (Touring) = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 12-32

6 Series E24 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread.

6 Series E63/64 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 14-20
6 Series E63/64 M6 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 12-20

7 Series E32 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 19-26

7 Series E38 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 13-25

7 Series E65/66/67/68 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M14x1.5 bolt thread. ET 15-25

8 Series E31 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread.

X3 E83 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M14x1.5 bolt thread. ET 40-45

X5 E53 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M14x1.5 bolt thread. ET 40-45

X5 E70 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 74.0mm and M14x1.25 bolt thread. ET 37-53 (would need hubcentric spacer 72.5-74mm)

X6 E71 = PCD 5x120, centre bore FRONT 74.0mm, centre bore REAR 72.5mm and M14x1.5 bolt thread. (would need hubcentric spacer 72.5-74mm - on front only)


Z3 E36 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 30-40

Z3 M Coupe/M Roadster = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread.

Z4 E85 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread. ET 45-52

Z8 E52 = PCD 5x120, centre bore 72.5mm and M12x1.5 bolt thread.

[Graeme]

From an earlier post...

I ordered the 1.4" ones - centre picture.

14mm x 1.50 E/T Ultra Mag Seat Lug Nuts (http://www.brandsport.com/etultramagseat4.html)
The load rating of rims other than X5 is likely to be insufficient.

The X5 centre caps can readily be disassembled to remove the BMW logo.

X5 rims appear on ebay from time to time and at a reasonable price usually.

Edit: I bought 2 ebay sets, both from Tempe Tyres. For the 2nd set they replaced the BMW logo disc with their own Starcraft disc after I asked if they could supply non-BMW caps.

[Preacher]

If these work, also the humble commodore runs this exact PCD and centre bore spacing, which means all the young 18yo who swap thier "gay" 17x8 rims for cool 20x8 rims will mean there is an abundance of these rims available also. Ive prob got my sons old holden 17x8 rims floating around also. I know some of the designs may be average but painted black you wont notice them, and they will be perfect for some nice 265/70/17 off road tyres.:)

I tried to source a set not long ago from a local wrecker - they laughed at me said there were VERY FEW around. THE REASON it seams that only the Holden Adventurer has the 17's all the rest 16 inch - So bought aftermarket 17" steel rims for the disco 3 which came with new studs/bolts - VERY HEAVY WHEELS

dj

[gazm3]

From an earlier post...

The load rating of rims other than X5 is likely to be insufficient.

The X5 centre caps can readily be disassembled to remove the BMW logo.

X5 rims appear on ebay from time to time and at a reasonable price usually.

Edit: I bought 2 ebay sets, both from Tempe Tyres. For the 2nd set they replaced the BMW logo disc with their own Starcraft disc after I asked if they could supply non-BMW caps.


Thanx mate.

what determines load rating is thier a specific code, or just cos it came off a similar weight car

[Graeme]

The load rating will either be cast into or stamped onto the rim, or documented somewhere by the vehicle or rim manufacturer. I haven't seen documentation for the X5 rims but it has been reported that they are rated at 1000 kg, which is a little less than the D4 rim but a little more than the RRS rim.

[kingo]

Hi Graeme, I see you are using X5 rims, how does the load rating compare, I understand the D3 wheels are rated to 940kgs, what are the X5's rating?

[NavyDiver]

Hi Graeme, I see you are using X5 rims, how does the load rating compare, I understand the D3 wheels are rated to 940kgs, what are the X5's rating?

Brought some but yet to see them. The gent selling said "Had a look and i found on the tyre a rating of 925kg. I hope this helps! cheers"

This is 15kg less than the "Max Load 940kg" stamped on the inside of the alloy 18" rims on my D3. The term max load is interesting termanology.

Looking at the rims on ebay for BMW seem to show 4 or more 17" rim styles. I am not sure if they are all the same! Mine are at this link (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170686001690'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
I am going to put them on before paying this time after being ripped off by Joel White from sydney sailing with his 640kg rated rims! Mind you the new X5 I just got for $76 for the four they makes them very cheap!:)

[Graeme]

Another forum member has fitted that same pattern to his D3.

Don't forget to get the long shank nuts!

[djhampson]

Another forum member has fitted that same pattern to his D3.

Don't forget to get the long shank nuts!

That would be me.

so far 10k + they haven't fallen off yet. I've had a few comments about them mainly from ppl noticing the BMW logo in the middle.

Tho I did do a puncture sidewall after 300km :(

[Graeme]

I checked mine for tightness after their 1st outing, but after 20K kms the vehicle doesn't seem to be particularly low on any corner and I haven't seen any wheels overtake me, so I think the nuts are holding.

[Starchy993]

I just completed a 5,000km round trip via Fraser Island in my D3 TDV6. In preparation, I purchased a set of 17" Dynamic steel rims with Cooper ST 245/70/17 tyres.

The Dynamic nut turns 10 full revolutions compared to the OEM nuts which only turn 9 revolutions.

Whilst slightly noisier than the Continental road tyres, the Dynamic wheels look good and perform wheel on the D3. The spare steel rim also fits comfortably in the generic spot. I think there is a set on eBay at the moment for $560 for 4 rims.

I hope this helps you out.

[kingo]

Have just won a set of BMW X5 rims on ebay and will pick them up in he next day or so, not as cheap as ypur $76 dollar purchase, but much better then LR rims and I don't mind the pattern. Now for the tyres, MT's at the least, but what and how much. Will stay with 265/70/17 as I'm already running Cooper STC's in that size, any suggestions?
Cooper STT, BFG KM2, Maxxis, Mickey Thom MTZ????????

QUOTE=Graeme;1506305]The load rating will either be cast into or stamped onto the rim, or documented somewhere by the vehicle or rim manufacturer. I haven't seen documentation for the X5 rims but it has been reported that they are rated at 1000 kg, which is a little less than the D4 rim but a little more than the RRS rim.[/QUOTE]

[Disco3QLD]

Last week I fitted 17" Dynamic steel rims with the new to Australia "Falken WildPeak A/T's" to my D3 and was pretty impressed with them offroad over the weekend and much better in the mud than the Pirelli Scorpions. On road was a little noisier but worth it.

[Redback]

How we all going with these rims

[djhampson]

Mine are going good. The coopers aren't tho.

I've done a 2nd sidewall and nearly done a 3rd and 4th.

So the STs are about to be binned and KM2s fitted.

[Graeme]

No problems with mine. I wondered how well the shanks on the long shank nuts would last with repeated tightening but have had the wheels off several times and no thread distortion has been apparent to date. I've never been able to tighten the nuts after their initial fitment.

[djhampson]

I lost one wheel nut soon after I switched from my road tyres to my 17"s. I suspect I didn't tighten it up!

[Felon]

So is it true that all BMW X5 rims fit the Discovery 3. I have a Hse with the 19 inch rims and want some 17s for off road. Dont really care about legality just that they will fit and be safe.

[Graeme]

IIRC the X5 17" don't fit over the slightly larger brakes fitted to V8 D3s.

[Owl]

Mine are going good. The coopers aren't tho.

I've done a 2nd sidewall and nearly done a 3rd and 4th.

So the STs are about to be binned and KM2s fitted.

Suprise suprise!!

[Felon]

Thanks Graham. Guess it might be 18s then. Do X5 18s fit?
Or are there any other alternatives to look at Discovery wheels are so expensive. Except of course the 19s which I have which it seems noone wants :)

[Plane Fixer]

I am after 5 19" Disco wheels. I have an ad in the wanted section.

[Felon]

I'd need new ones before i could sell these :)
In perth there are about 3 sets on gumtree for about 100 per wheel.

[roamer]

I am after 5 19" Disco wheels. I have an ad in the wanted section.

I have got 2 sets of 4, RRS wheels 19" (one set like new) (photo in gallery)
and 7 x 255/55/19 GY MTRs (30% worn)

PM me if you want more info

Cheers Ken

[Redback]

Thanks Graham. Guess it might be 18s then. Do X5 18s fit?
Or are there any other alternatives to look at Discovery wheels are so expensive. Except of course the 19s which I have which it seems noone wants :)

No, only 17" X5 rims between 2002 and 2006, some are 5 spoke and some are 8 spoke like Graeme's

[101RRS]

No, only 17" X5 rims between 2002 and 2006, some are 5 spoke and some are 8 spoke like Graeme's

Do you still have the BMW rims on your car?? Have you had any issues?? I have the same and the recommended wheel nuts but have not put them on. I am still running GG ATs on my standard 18" rims which are good enough for most of my running around and most 4wding but have not been on a tough enough trip to warrant buying muddies for the 17". I would like KM2s but cannot justify the cost for their low use so will go Maxxis Bighorn MTs when I buy.

Cheers

Garry

[Graeme]

Mine have been on for over 50K kms.

[Redback]

No issues, I'm back on the 18s for a while, just sorting out fuel economy between the 18s with ATs and the 17s with MTs, same rolling diameter.

[101RRS]

Thanks - when I do get my MTs I am going 255/65R17 which is with a mm or two of the standard 255/60/18s (saves the cost of buying an Mt spare).

Over the past year I have gone from the RRS OEM 255/55R18 Wranglers to the D3 OEM 255/60R18 Wrangler to new 255/60R18 GG ATs and there has not been any appreciable differences in fuel economy and I record every drop of fuel that goes into my car and account for the errors in distance travelled caused by the slightly different rolling circumferences. I even account for the 200ml of 2 stroke I put in - hmmm maybe a need to get a life.

MTs might be different though.

Garry

[TerryO]

Bugger me Garry what are you going to do once you work out in 1000 kilometres time that the muds use an extra .77245 of a litre of fuel per hundred kilometres? ...:wasntme:

Just wondering if you make allowances for tail and head winds? ...:eek:

cheers,
Terry;)

[Geedublya]

You might be in for a surprise if you do that Garry. I thought that I could do the same with 265 60 18 Copper ATR and 245 70 17 BFG KM2. The tyre size calculator gives the circumference of them at 2434.3 mm and 2433.5 mm respectively.

When I measured them, the KM2 was 2470 and the ATR was around 2430. I don't think my stability control would be happy with 40mm difference.

As an aside I'm not seeing any difference in economy between the ATR and the KM2 so far.

[101RRS]

Bugger me Garry what are you going to do once you work out in 1000 kilometres time that the muds use an extra .77245 of a litre of fuel per hundred kilometres? ...:wasntme:

Just wondering if you make allowances for tail and head winds? ...:eek:

cheers,
Terry;)

pFFFttt