Theory On Closed roads

[M.Allison]

Hey Guys,

What is your guys theories on taking "an alternate route" around closed tracks?

As i have noticed time after time that these stupid park rangers close them off due to Bull dust excuses!

i only ask to see if others do it like i do :wasntme:

because i have found some rippa tracks doing this.

Thanks,

Mike

[Scouse]

Oohh, this is going to be a good thread.

Advocating this sort of bypass work is going to make it worse for us in the long run IMO.

[Basil135]

In SA, if there is a "Road Closed" sign up, it means exactly that.

If you are on that road without lawful excuse, then you are liable to be fined. If the local coppers catch you, it will probably cost you demerit points too.

[M.Allison]

Advocating this sort of bypass work is going to make it worse for us in the long run IMO.


See i completely understand what you are saying :) but at this rate soon we wont be able to go anywhere!

So the question i ask is, is it people like me that make it worse in the long run or is it a convenient excuse that the government would like to use? :p


Mike

[HSVRangie]

road closed is a road closed.

In Vic.

we have enough issues with DSE closing tracks for no reason with out ********* going around the closure because they have decided DSE should not have done it.

While I hate DSE and thier road closures one should obey or they end up shutting more tracks.
Michael.

[disco2hse]

I would think that if a track is closed, then it is closed. If an alternative route is not closed then it is open for access. But a closed route is not an excuse for creating a new route.

Alan

[willem]

I don't agree with breaking the law either ... but Mike has a point. If we don't do something more and more tracks will just be closed on us and we won't have anywhere to go. Perhaps we need to be considering what we can do to prevent more track closures, and to reverse many of the track closures that have happened. We don't have to be bullied by the various government departments and greenie groups who want to close the bush to everyone.

Now is the time to think about the right action to take and starting to take that action. Living in denial and saying that there is plenty of Australia to see will soon mean that you won't be ALLOWED to see much of it at all!

Willem

[Lionel]

Hey Guys,

What is your guys theories on taking "an alternate route" around closed tracks?

As i have noticed time after time that these stupid park rangers close them off due to Bull dust excuses!

i only ask to see if others do it like i do :wasntme:

because i have found some rippa tracks doing this.

Thanks,

Mike

For all our sakes DON'T DO IT!!! The anti-4WD plonkers will only have more ammunition to throw at us.

Cheers,

Lionel

[Chenz]

I don't agree with breaking the law either ... but Mike has a point. If we don't do something more and more tracks will just be closed on us and we won't have anywhere to go. Perhaps we need to be considering what we can do to prevent more track closures, and to reverse many of the track closures that have happened. We don't have to be bullied by the various government departments and greenie groups who want to close the bush to everyone.

Now is the time to think about the right action to take and starting to take that action. Living in denial and saying that there is plenty of Australia to see will soon mean that you won't be ALLOWED to see much of it at all!

Willem

Agreed. The more we just meekly say nothing the more the Bambi-ites get cred and close more and more tracks and access points.

I do not advocate flirting the law and going into closed roads and tracks but some form of explanation as to reason for the closure would help people to understand why they can't go a certain way.

Who do you write to? Where do you get this info? Simply turning around and saying "Oh well, that used to be a good track or way through" and not finding out why just gives those who would turn the joint over to the ants the reason to just keep on doing it.

[HSVRangie]

most 4wd associations ahve info.

and liase with the relevant bodies.

[alien]

Seasonly closed roads are closed so the track doesn't get damaged during the wet IMO.
Most tracks that are closed near me are roads that either you wouldn't get through in the wet without risking damage to your 4B(or you) or they are major fire routes(escape routes for locals) that you need in good condition at all times.
If the gate is locked shut don't go in or around.
If the gate is locked open by all means use it but be awere that most side tracks are restricted.

DSE havn't got the time to lock and check every track when rain is forcast so this is their solution.
Yes if its dry their fine but is it worth risking use of the track all together?

I can think of 6 tracks that are closed perminantly because of miss use during the closed season.(Motor bikes and 4x4s both responsible).

And now i'll hope off :soapbox:. Don't start me on the Brisbane ranges "Fungis" (no tracks open 24/7).

Cheers:alien:.

[willem]

Seasonly closed roads are closed so the track doesn't get damaged during the wet IMO.
Most tracks that are closed near me are roads that either you wouldn't get through in the wet without risking damage to your 4B(or you) or they are major fire routes(escape routes for locals) that you need in good condition at all times.
If the gate is locked shut don't go in or around.
If the gate is locked open by all means use it but be awere that most side tracks are restricted.

DSE havn't got the time to lock and check every track when rain is forcast so this is their solution.
Yes if its dry their fine but is it worth risking use of the track all together?

I can think of 6 tracks that are closed perminantly because of miss use during the closed season.(Motor bikes and 4x4s both responsible).

And now i'll hope off :soapbox:. Don't start me on the Brisbane ranges "Fungis" (no tracks open 24/7).

Cheers:alien:.

That's a poor excuse for taking them away from us permanently! Fix them up and open them again! They belong to us, not to the DSE!

I do think that those who abuse the forest ought to be sorted out, but I don't think the rest of us should be penalised because of them.

Willem

[tony]

Gotta av a say ere, eventually there will be nowhere you can off road except in designated parks that you pay to use.

this is because the majority of people are too lazy to stand up and be counted they would rather sit back and let someone Else do the talking

on a open forum I will say a closed track is just that closed....:angel:

some are justified and some are not...

prime example theres a track down the south coast which I love its now closed and locked with a gate that would not look amiss at fort Knocks
now me being me I got onto sholehaven council to inquire about the closure of this track 2 days later and hours spent on the phone I got an answer ......"I'm sorry sir we no longer have control of that area"
OK says I why not "OH we gave that back to the depatment of lands"
Oh says I why was that "well sir council could no longer afford the up keep" Oh says I in the last 10 years i havent seen any work done there
"well sir you better take that up with the department of lands"

So onto the the DLE we got, after days on the phone finialy got to talk to the head of department who was responsible for the gate...Oh I'm sorry sir yes it is a nice view up there but we just hav'nt got the resorces to manage that area..you can still walk there ......(.it would take days) its only closed to vehicular traffic....

days and days on the phone geting the run around for nothing....

untill the 4wheel movement become more vocal at local and federal level were stuffed like the shooters/hunters
ok rant over

[disco2hse]

It's no different over here. We have our share of greenies in govt dept's who honestly do think humans should be eradicated because they are hurting mother earth.

However there are a number of very popular tracks that are closed in the winter months because of the damage that might otherwise be caused. On at least a couple the local 4WD clubs have taken to working with DOC (Dept. of Conservation) and/or the local council to maintain them in exchange for continued access. Also makes a good excuse to get to the tracks when no one else is around :)

On one track, Stadia, several clubs banded together to build a cable gate to stop 4WDers from getting in and destroying the place, then driving up the main road leaving great clods of mud all over the road and creating a hazard. The reason for this is that while most of the track is on DOC land the entrance crosses private land and finishes in private land. To ensure continued access we must keep these various parties happy. Several times since then we have had to repair the cable (about 25mm steel cable) and the stanchions because people have variously tried to cut it, pull out the stanchions, drive over and through it,...

Councils have also started trying to block access to beaches, however at this stage the clubs have the rangers on their side because of the amount of work we do as volunteers on both the beaches and in regional parks.

You gotta do some work if you want to be taken seriously.

Alan

PS

This video is from earlier this year when we were doing some remedial work on one of the tracks while also having some fun out there.

YouTube - Maratoto 4WD run

[George130]

We now have an MOU with the ACT mob. Gives us access behind the locked gates. n return we will be maping the area and taking on some of the maintenance.
I don't agree with the lockit up as they don't have resources.

[numpty]

Well I'm of the opinion that we are our own worst enemies. Personally, I have no interest in driving tracks for the sake of it, although there is nothing wrong with that. If the resources aren't available, I think that is a legitimate excuse to close the track.

I'm getting to the stage of believing it's not a minority that spoil it for others, but the majority these days. Too many people living for today and devil take tomorrow. The amount of garbage that is found in popular places these days is astounding, and these are the places the majority visit.:mad: Is it any wonder we get locked out.

Oh, and FWIW, if the sign says closed IT'S CLOSED!

[willem]

Well I'm of the opinion that we are our own worst enemies. Personally, I have no interest in driving tracks for the sake of it, although there is nothing wrong with that. If the resources aren't available, I think that is a legitimate excuse to close the track.

I'm getting to the stage of believing it's not a minority that spoil it for others, but the majority these days. Too many people living for today and devil take tomorrow. The amount of garbage that is found in popular places these days is astounding, and these are the places the majority visit.:mad: Is it any wonder we get locked out.

Oh, and FWIW, if the sign says closed IT'S CLOSED!

Wow! :eek: But do we have to shout?

Willem

[numpty]

Warranted I thought.....but that's just me. 'twas really meant as a highlight.

[willem]

I'm getting to the stage of believing it's not a minority that spoil it for others, but the majority these days. Too many people living for today and devil take tomorrow. The amount of garbage that is found in popular places these days is astounding, and these are the places the majority visit.:mad: Is it any wonder we get locked out.


So who has the right to lock us out? Whose forest is it?

Now I have to make it clear that I firmly believe that we should care for the environment. We should do everything possible to make the world around us a better place. And I have no time for those who want to wreck and destroy.

But the forest belongs to all Australians. Not just the greenies. Not just the government departments. It belongs to all of us. Not just the bushwalkers who are fit enough to walk long distances. It belongs to all of us!

Therefore it is incumbent on government to make the forest available to all of us. Shutting it down just because its too hard for them to manage is not valid because it is removing from the people a facility that belongs to the people. That is not right!

We the people own the forest. The government's job is to make sure it is properly maintained and accessible to us.

Willem

[hoadie72]

There are often very valid reasons for tracks being closed off. Something that's perhaps not heard of in the east is Jarrah dieback. One of the more common ways of spreading it is on the tyres of vehicles, so in areas prone to the disease, tracks are closed.

Now I'm not naive enough to say that's the only reason tracks are closed, but sometimes they are closed with the best interest of the environment, which ultimately is in our best interests too as it ensures the long term sustainability of the forest.

[cookiesa]

theres one simple answer to don't have the resources.... leave it open if you can get in you can use it.. if you can't and need recovering YOU get to pay a hefty fee so the track can be fixed! (Of course the problem is then people make "bypasses" and chicken tracks.. in themselves not a bad thing as a badly eroded section of track very quickly reverts to bush, BUT then you get the bypass around the bypass around the chicken track around the went off the track for the hell of it and bypassed that, quite commonly what happens just before it gets closed.

I'm all for leaving it open, but unfortunately some people just can't resist chewing tracks up for some "fun"

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So who has the right to lock us out? Whose forest is it?

Now I have to make it clear that I firmly believe that we should care for the environment. We should do everything possible to make the world around us a better place. And I have no time for those who want to wreck and destroy.

But the forest belongs to all Australians. Not just the greenies. Not just the government departments. It belongs to all of us. Not just the bushwalkers who are fit enough to walk long distances. It belongs to all of us! ... Willem

Closed means closed, go around it and taint every other responsible 4WDer in the country. If you don't like it get active, write to your local member of Parliament (state) and keep following up, they won't start any action until you have about 20 letters in your folder. Join a local 4wd club and get active with the state association, if still no result and you feel you want it changed, stand for parliament yourself and get appointed to the minister for national parks and forests.

The "who owns it", "all Australians" argument holds no water because technically it's Crown land so Betty Windor owns it. (Remember we have a representative Government with Constitutional Monarch and not a Republic.) You are not allowed to enter prisons or military bases or the Parliament, except by open access routes and when they're closed they are closed and you'll be charged with trespass or worse some offence against the Crown if you go around the closed gate/door etc.

Diana

[willem]

Willem

Closed means closed, go around it and taint every other responsible 4WDer in the country. If you don't like it get active, write to your local member of Parliament (state) and keep following up, they won't start any action until you have about 20 letters in your folder. Join a local 4wd club and get active with the state association, if still no result and you feel you want it changed, stand for parliament yourself and get appointed to the minister for national parks and forests.

The "who owns it", "all Australians" argument holds no water because technically it's Crown land so Betty Windor owns it. (Remember we have a representative Government with Constitutional Monarch and not a Republic.) You are not allowed to enter prisons or military bases or the Parliament, except by open access routes and when they're closed they are closed and you'll be charged with trespass or worse some offence against the Crown if you go around the closed gate/door etc.

Diana

G'day Diana,

The all Australians own it argument does hold water, even if, technically, 'Betty' owns. Its still our land!

Just in case you hadn't noticed, I do NOT advocate breaking the law and going around gates and making our own tracks. I actually do care about the forest and do everything I can to look after it. I do not tear up tracks and make a mess. And I do take my rubbish out with me.

And I also think that we have a right to visit our own country! People do not have right to tell you or me that we can't go into the forest.

We all know that every government has to take some land to be able to operate properly. So, yes, I am well aware that you can't go into prisons or military establishments. But that is different to shutting down the general land so that nobody can go there.

We are a democracy, which is a rule by the people. The land is our land and we have a right to use it. I must say that I am surprised at the fairly passive acceptance on this forum of a trend which will eventually remove the recreation we care about! Don't we realise what is happening? More and more tracks and whole forests are being shut down. There will be less and less space for us to visit. This is happening all the time, right now!

No, I don't want to run for Parliament. I do write letters to the editor. I do write letters to MPs. And I do go to public meetings on these issues. And I do put postings on to this forum where you would think people would care about these things. I can't do everything, but I do do something.

If I can raise a bit of awareness about the steady, quietly ongoing taking of our land away from us so that others also will start to do those things that you mentioned that make a difference, then I am happy.

Willem

[robzilla]

slightly Off Topic here, but we ran into a little issue on our last trip.

On our last trip in Big River state forest, we found a nice little track worming its way back down the hill we'd just driven up (on a different path).
Track wasn't too difficult, had a pretty severe wash-out rutt running the length of it, but all cars and bikes made it down easily.

When we got to the bottom, there was a sign saying Track Closed! We'd started from the less popular end where there wasn't any sign/gate.

Now, say there was a ranger sittin at the bottom taking a smoko, and saw us coming down, reckon we'd be in legal strife for travelling a closed track, even though it wasn't sign posted where we started?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Willem

I'm not sure that we are actually a democracy = "rule by the people" yes we have competitive elections in a fair system, but there is where our "democracy" ends. We have no power to instruct the Government to do or not do anything, except in a referendum and we have no "bill of rights". A common term of what we have is parliamentary sovereignty in which ownership of the country is vested in the Government of the day with the Head of State represented by the Crown. So anyone who thinks that we have a democracy and that we own anything doesn't really understand the philosophy behind it and it suits the politicians that we have this misapprehension.

On track closures, I joined the Land Rover Owner's Club in 1973 and roads were being closed, we made representations and petitions etc and the closures have continued to this day. What has happened in the recent time is that the Nat Parks and Wildlife Service in NSW at least, now understand that it has neither the staff or the funds to maintain all the parks under their responsibility and the 4WD Clubs Association has been making in-roads with Nat Parks. It looks like we may be able to work in partnership with Nat Parks in maintaining tracks and subsequently having access to those areas currently behind locked gates. The gates will remain but we may be loaned the key for permitted trips. We already have a track near Sydney where this is the case, the Clubs that help maintain the track have access to the key, those that don't assist don't get access to the area. User pays you could call it.

My belief is that this is likely to be the only way that we will have currently closed off areas re-opened to us in the future.

Diana

[cookiesa]

My beef with "user pays" is we already do, it is called tax. We pay tax that pay for Nat Parks etc, so as a "user" you do pay, one could argue that since the GST it is even more user pays as every 4x4 item you buy etc is GST raising.

Whilst I think the "permitted trips" access is likely to be the way we go forward I don't beleive it is a fair system either. But unless someone can come up with a more workable solution it is better than a locked gate with no key access.

[alien]

It would be interesting to know the history of the tracks that we are talking about.
I'm woundering if they might be fire trails put in for fighting fires, or were they loging tracks used to retreave logs in days gone past.
Perhaps we have taken these tracks for granted or is it possible we have abussed our right to use them.
A lot of these tracks are dead end and with fairly steep or muddy sections on them.
I can think of a more than a few occations were DSE/Parks(Dept.of name change) and police have been asked to winch people out.
With the OH&S rules and regs post event debreifs have led to restrictions of access to them.

Certanly a case of the few unprepaired wrecking it for the rest of us.
Unfortunatly we must cater for the lowest comon denominater in todays society.
With more 4X4s available to Joe average this is a trend that is getting out of control.
As a person who has been out doing these recoveries at 3:30 in the morning i'm not sure if these people think of the repocutions if things go wrong.

And 2 more bob into the mix,
Cheers.