EGR kits,, do not buy!!!

[stig0000]

since I own a td5,, as like most people who own a td5 I have thort about the EGR removal kits,, and reading allot about people that have done it an 'say' they get better performance with a EGR kit,


after doing alot of reading and asking around, and just completing a emissions training week at landrover training in Sydney, I have asked landrover about the td5 egr kits,, and with what we learned about emissions that the kits have 100% no effect on performance,

if you don’t know how egr works Google it, but in short it helps Bern one of the 3 main gasses in the exhaust from your engine, once of which is NOz, when this gas burns it cools the oxygen around it down,, cooling your combustion chamber down, which makes the burning of the fuel more efficient(sort of like when people NOS there cars), in turn better fuel consumption, and helps in the cooling of your engine,

the only way EGR will hinder a engines performance is if its faulty, an most cases stuck open, letting the exhaust into the manifold all the time, but other than that it has no effect on performance,

So if your like most people out there that is looking at the EGR kits for performance, don’t get it unless you have a egr fault, which in that case is better to get it fixed, not taken off,

As always im open to all comments,

[cal415]

not owning a TD5 myself but owning a toyota 1kz-te prado, i know the EGR blocking helps these motors out, and i am guessing there is going to be a whole hoard of people on here that will disagree with you. Surely the EGR kits wouldnt be such common mod if it had no effect other wise we would all be runningn fuel polarisers and hyclones....

[Blknight.aus]

Actually I agree with him. If your EGR is functionin correctly there is no change in engine performance if you blank it off or bypass it.

That said.

I fixed mine twice before fitting the bypass kit and I'm not prepared to pay for what they want to replace the unit to stop it sticking open. When the EGR is working properly it allowes carbon particulate back into the air intake of the engine which also gets oil in it from the crankcase ventilation system AND any turbocharger blowby. carbon particulate and oil makes a very good lapping paste which is not something you want being fed into the engine.

[Graeme]

Actually I agree with him. If your EGR is functionin correctly there is no change in engine performance if you blank it off or bypass it.
I don't agree with this statement as I've obtained considerably better light throttle response with EGR disabled. I've also had the experience of a faulty MAF causing the EGR valve to be kept open with the throttle open causing a dangerous throttle delay.

The D2 WSM states that EGR is only fitted (to these vehicles) for emission reduction purposes.

[Blknight.aus]

I don't agree with this statement as I've obtained considerably better light throttle response with EGR disabled. I've also had the experience of a faulty MAF causing the EGR valve to be kept open with the throttle open causing a dangerous throttle delay.



so that would be a sticking EGR in the first instance and an EGR fault in the second.

[landyfever]

Very good Nick, it sounds like you've learned something !

Anyway I agree with what you say but, replacing the land rover EGR housing with a more open free flowing housing will help.

[discowhite]

the kits have 100% no effect on performance,

,

100% incorrect statement!
the shear size difference in the throat between the EGR body and the EGR kit will surley have some effect in performance....as proven by many people.

cheers phil

[Leo]

Someone once likened the EGR concept to forcing somebody to breathe their farts.

On a serious note, have a look at the inside of the air intake manifold of an EGR equipped diesel car and it will be filthy. That gunk can't be good for the longevity of the engine. Also the official LR reason for the slight hesitation that the TDV6 and TDV8 engines sometimes suffer is the egr.

I can't speak about the TD5, but there is definitely a significant difference with the TDV6 once the EGR valves are blanked off.

[justinc]

Yes EGR may help when the vehicle is in as new condition, but having seen inefficient, choked engines from years of ingesting carbon particulates use more fuel and lose performance, then how can THAT be good for the environment??? I would sooner see efficient, correctly mapped modern diesels on the roads, than choked, smoking, fuel burning expensive to repair EGR equipped ones. I have seen quotes of $1500 and upwards to 'service' the Nissan ZD30 EGR system just to regain fuel economy and performance, which incidentally is a common problem with these so called modern high performance diesels:mad:


I remain unconvinced that leaving it attached to a Td5, especially the later throttled version(:o) is a good thing if the engine is over 60K old.

Just my 1.5c worth

JC

[Graeme]

so that would be a sticking EGR in the first instance and an EGR fault in the second.
Nope. 1st improvement was achieved by unplugging the electrical lead from the modulator (still the situation today with EGR valve still installed) and 2nd instance fault overcome by replacing the MAF with the EGR still fully functional at the time. The modulator was unplugged at a later date when I became familiar with the TD5's EGR system and engine electronics generally.

[Dougal]

The description is quite wrong.
Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are not burnt, nor do they cool anything.

EGR is used to displace excess air (and oxygen) in the cylinder with inert exhaust. Because the cylinder now has less oxygen present, it cannot form as much NOx.
EGR on a diesel does not cool the combustion, the main reason people disable it is to keep soot out of the intake.

EGR in a throttled petrol engine is used to cool the combustion, which also aids in reducing NOx and throttle pumping losses. This can reduce part load fuel consumption, however it doesn't apply at all to diesel engines.

[discowhite]

The description is quite wrong.
Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are not burnt, nor do they cool anything.

EGR is used to displace excess air (and oxygen) in the cylinder with inert exhaust. Because the cylinder now has less oxygen present, it cannot form as much NOx.
EGR on a diesel does not cool the combustion, the main reason people disable it is to keep soot out of the intake.

EGR in a throttled petrol engine is used to cool the combustion, which also aids in reducing NOx and throttle pumping losses. This can reduce part load fuel consumption, however it doesn't apply at all to diesel engines.

so basically it was added to ''cheat'' the emmision standards of the time?
instead of improving the combustion/performance to reduce the emmisions.:mad:

cheers phil

[Bush65]

since I own a td5,, as like most people who own a td5 I have thort about the EGR removal kits,, and reading allot about people that have done it an 'say' they get better performance with a EGR kit,


after doing alot of reading and asking around, and just completing a emissions training week at landrover training in Sydney, I have asked landrover about the td5 egr kits,, and with what we learned about emissions that the kits have 100% no effect on performance,

if you don’t know how egr works Google it, but in short it helps Bern one of the 3 main gasses in the exhaust from your engine, once of which is NOz, when this gas burns it cools the oxygen around it down,, cooling your combustion chamber down, which makes the burning of the fuel more efficient(sort of like when people NOS there cars), in turn better fuel consumption, and helps in the cooling of your engine,

the only way EGR will hinder a engines performance is if its faulty, an most cases stuck open, letting the exhaust into the manifold all the time, but other than that it has no effect on performance,

So if your like most people out there that is looking at the EGR kits for performance, don’t get it unless you have a egr fault, which in that case is better to get it fixed, not taken off,

As always im open to all comments,
You seem to be one mixed up person, and you come here and pass on a lot of misinformation. You also contradict yourself in the same post.

[Blknight.aus]

poo. posted to the wrong thread.

[Bytemrk]

Interesting,

You theory may be correct - I'm not technically qualified to comment.

But the real world experience of many many people here - is that the IS a very significant difference.

In my case there is no question that removing the EGR and replacing it with a more free flowing pipe made a very noticable difference to the way the car drove.

Some people may think it's a placebo thing - But Mrs Bytemrk had no idea I had done that work - and the first time she drove the car she commented to me asking if I had done something as it seemed smoother and more powerful than it was.

Personally I'll take real world experience over theory any day..

Mark

[Dougal]

so basically it was added to ''cheat'' the emmision standards of the time?
instead of improving the combustion/performance to reduce the emmisions.:mad:

cheers phil

Well you could say that, but can you really label it as "cheating" if it worked?
The reality is, without EGR many engines couldn't have been sold.

EGR is still a part of emissions control schemes, both diesel and petrol. But some now are completely internal (trap exhaust via the valve action instead of taking it back through the intake manifold) and others have sophisticated filtering and cooling systems to remove the problem of EGR soot mixing with oil and clogging up your intake ports.

I'd like to know what diesel engine efficiency is possible without meeting emissions regs. In other words, "how much improvement can we expect as better emissions strategies are discovered?"
Modern TDi engines are already beating previous engines (albeit not by much) for outright efficiency at the same time as meeting more stringent emissions controls.

[DeanoH]

You seem to be one mixed up person, and you come here and pass on a lot of misinformation. You also contradict yourself in the same post.


I don't think theres any doubt that the LR people have filled his head with a lot of seemingly credible b......t, but as he said he's open to comment. I think the info he posted has been pretty well disected and shown to be incorrect.

Attacking the man and not the ball doesn't add constructively to the debate.

Deano

[Tombie]

I like the theory.. But in practice the results are very different..

*Note, vested interest as I sell the kits!*

Interestingly please note South African spec TD5s do not, and have not, ever used EGR ...

Improved low end response, improved engine cleanliness etc are side effects of removal of EGR on a TD5.

Chipped TD5s with removed EGR still pass all MOT testing and would pass testing in AU on emissions too.

[stig0000]

As I thort this would bring on a massive debate, not a thread to start fights, just a difference of opinion, also EGR is something that allot of people don’t no how it fully works and what its dose/for,

as I was in the same boat as others considering getting a egr kit, for the resion of better performance. Which is what most people are when buying this kits, and if you look at adverts for this kits its one of the main selling lines,

I am only going off info that I have studied, an been tort to be a Tec on landrovers,
And not from a tafe, land rover them self’s, so if there wrong, the people that made and tested the engine are wrong??,

the way I see it is if egr did damage to the engine,(not just td5s, all car makers) and did nothing for the emissions or the engine, it wouldn’t be there, it’s a complete waste of time and millions of $$ to car makers,

as for performance, EGR is only in operation in the right conditions for the ECU to activate it, but as soon as you do something its shut off faster then you can think to put your foot down. It is like this for the very resion in not hindering the performance of the engine,

[Tombie]

EGR does do damage....

Factories make vehicles with life spans... The engine only has to meet this to pass...

Fact is, it introduces lots of extra soot etc into the combustion chamber.
Oil in non EGR fitted TD5s remains cleaner longer....

Performance improves... Performance, Not power...

LR also say theres no Oil Pump bolt issues :cool: And that the Injector loom isnt a problem anymore ;)


However, removal of EGR on a Nissan 3.0L causes massive increases in EGT and will destroy the engines... (side note useless info)

[Bytemrk]

as for performance, EGR is only in operation in the right conditions for the ECU to activate it, but as soon as you do something its shut off faster then you can think to put your foot down. It is like this for the very resion in not hindering the performance of the engine,



Stig,

As I said above - I am no mechanic .... but even if the egr valve is closed... in my case (a 2003 Disco TD5) there is the valve blocking the airflow as it comes from the Intercooler into the inlet manifold. Have you ever looked inside one? ... they are badly restricted.

This is what the inlet air from the turbo has to get past. :eek:

http://www.td5alive.com/images/later_egr_valve.jpg

That's the big issue with performance in my view.

It's pretty basic theory... from way before anyone thought about putting a computer in a car... the better the airflow into and out of the motor... the better it will run.

I don't think anyone said the EGR did any damage to the motor.... it simply runs far better with it removed.

Same as swapping a badly designed exhaust manifold for a decent set of extractors... or dozens of other vehicle mods.... it just improves on the initial design.

Mine won't be put back on my car .. that's for sure..

Mark

[Bush65]

You seem to be one mixed up person, and you come here and pass on a lot of misinformation. You also contradict yourself in the same post.


I don't think theres any doubt that the LR people have filled his head with a lot of seemingly credible b......t, but as he said he's open to comment. I think the info he posted has been pretty well disected and shown to be incorrect.

Attacking the man and not the ball doesn't add constructively to the debate.

Deano
You're right, my bad.

I thought of replies to all the rubbish in the original post, and also recalled what was in another of post by the same person, then just had a brain fart.

I don't know if incorrect information was given, if it was misunderstood, and finally transposed poorly in this thread - probably a combination.

But the poster claimed to have done "after doing alot of reading and asking around ..." So should have been better informed and could have checked what the Land Rover people had claimed, before making such claims here.

I still suspect the poster has thrown his/her own interpretation and garnishing to what information may have been given.


since I own a td5,, as like most people who own a td5 I have thort about the EGR removal kits,, and reading allot about people that have done it an 'say' they get better performance with a EGR kit,


after doing alot of reading and asking around, and just completing a emissions training week at landrover training in Sydney, I have asked landrover about the td5 egr kits,, and with what we learned about emissions that the kits have 100% no effect on performance,

if you don’t know how egr works Google it, but in short it helps Bern one of the 3 main gasses in the exhaust from your engine, once of which is NOz, when this gas burns it cools the oxygen around it down,, cooling your combustion chamber down, which makes the burning of the fuel more efficient(sort of like when people NOS there cars), in turn better fuel consumption, and helps in the cooling of your engine,

the only way EGR will hinder a engines performance is if its faulty, an most cases stuck open, letting the exhaust into the manifold all the time, but other than that it has no effect on performance,

So if your like most people out there that is looking at the EGR kits for performance, don’t get it unless you have a egr fault, which in that case is better to get it fixed, not taken off,

As always im open to all comments,

[seano87]

I am only going off info that I have studied, an been tort to be a Tec on landrovers,
And not from a tafe, land rover them self’s, so if there wrong, the people that made and tested the engine are wrong??,


Err... I don't think Landrover are going to say anything themselves along the lines of "Oh yes, EGR is bad, bypass it, we were idiots to put it on in the first place". If its on the engine they built, they would say anything to justify it... true or otherwise.

Seano

[Jamo]

I agree with the "Don't buy" sentiment.

I didn't spend a cent on mine!:)

[clean32]

ok the Exhaust gas recirculation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia article on this is quite good and almost complete.

i think the original poster has gotten his wires crossed and confused between a petrol and diesel motors.

[Graeme]

Clean32,
I didn't look past the picture of the Saab engine in that article. Its a Saab 900 8-valve carby version with the carby sittng on top of the inlet manifold. Saab hadn't used EGRs at least up until 1995 but I don't know about later models though. Not worth looking at the rest of the article after that.

[clean32]

Clean32,
I didn't look past the picture of the Saab engine in that article. Its a Saab 900 8-valve carby version with the carby sittng on top of the inlet manifold. Saab hadn't used EGRs at least up until 1995 but I don't know about later models though. Not worth looking at the rest of the article after that.

should have kept reading down to the diesel bit

[PAT303]

An EGR is just like the early bomberdoors with the air pumped into the exhaust set-up,it's just

[PAT303]

That came out all wrong,the egr is a way to cheat the polution laws like the way bomberdoors had air pumped into the exhaust manifold to dilute the exhaust.A well tuned engine will always be better and the test for polutants is at a given rpm,say 2500 without the engine loaded so it is not accurate anyway. Pat

[Dougal]

That came out all wrong,the egr is a way to cheat the polution laws like the way bomberdoors had air pumped into the exhaust manifold to dilute the exhaust.A well tuned engine will always be better and the test for polutants is at a given rpm,say 2500 without the engine loaded so it is not accurate anyway. Pat

No it's not.
EGR is a method to reduce NOx at part load, it's nothing like the old "smog pumps".
NOx is the brown crap that resides in blankets over cities without sufficient wind. It's a serious problem in some geographic locations.

Yes EGR raises particulate levels and decreases combustion efficiency, but both of those side effects are dealt with in current production engines. DPF's sort out the soot and EGR cooling gives back the combustion efficiency.

If you really want to take up the issue of trading efficiency for NOx reduction, then it's a political debate rather than a technical one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I removed the EGR from our car a little while back. I noticed a small increase in low end performance. The only downside I can see is I think that it is taking a little longer to warm up the engine because it disables the heat exchanger.

[Zute]

My understanding of EGR systems (its been round for 30 odd years in oz) is the gases are recirculated to the engine at idle to help burn the unused fuel. (not all fuel is burnt at idle ) Its this cold state of the engine when first started that pushes it past the emission levels required. And is the main reason for viscus fans.(faster warm up) I studied this back in 1980 and not much in EGR systems have changed since than. Oh and I did pass.;)

[clean32]

My understanding of EGR systems (its been round for 30 odd years in oz) is the gases are recirculated to the engine at idle to help burn the unused fuel. (not all fuel is burnt at idle ) Its this cold state of the engine when first started that pushes it past the emission levels required. And is the main reason for viscus fans.(faster warm up) I studied this back in 1980 and not much in EGR systems have changed since than. Oh and I did pass.;)

thats about it, same time they cut down on the amount of cooling fluid in the block & head, aluminum heads sort of became mandatory etc

the comment on wikki about adding mass to the combustion chamber and that hasn't been covered so far in this thread, is logical but the problem is that the gas's being recirculated are almost already at such a high temp that it negates much of the supposed benefits, the benefit now being in the percentage of gas recalculated which in itself is a percentage of the volume due to its already expanded state add to that only a percentage of the gas is modified in the combustion chamber.

a dubious addition in the TD5 because surly the mapping could take care of partial or light load emissions. i suspect that its only there for worm up or a faster worm up

[DeanoH]

DPF's sort out the soot and EGR cooling gives back the combustion efficiency.

Contemplating removcal of EGR from SWMBO's D2 and am following this thread closely. Been very informative so far.

One question............What's a DPF ?

Deano

[Blknight.aus]

DPF

Diesel Particulate Filter.


or typo for PDF which is that wierd ass adobe acrobat document format

[Dougal]

Contemplating removcal of EGR from SWMBO's D2 and am following this thread closely. Been very informative so far.

One question............What's a DPF ?

Deano

Yarr, Diesel Particulate Filter (aka soot trap). You're not likely to find one on a D2.

[wardy1]

Not qualified to get into the tech debate here so I won't. But as a D2 owner with a Td5 towing a camper at about 1.4 tonnes fully loaded...... the difference is NOT neglible....it's ****ing great!
Yes mine is chipped, bu the difference was DEFINITELY noticable after doing the EGR as well.
JUST DO IT

[clean32]

Not qualified to get into the tech debate here so I won't. But as a D2 owner with a Td5 towing a camper at about 1.4 tonnes fully loaded...... the difference is NOT neglible....it's ****ing great!
Yes mine is chipped, bu the difference was DEFINITELY noticable after doing the EGR as well.
JUST DO IT

so that sort of says it all

[CraigE]

I blanked mine off (using an alternative no cost method) for the primary purpose of stopping all the crud entering the engine and causing damage and for this alone. I was amazed the crud that I cleaned out. Now even those of us without formal mechanical training know that any of this crud and oil blow by entering the top end of the engine will do damage eventually.
As a bonus there was a very minor increase in light throttle response.
The fact that it is also expensive to fix the EGR every time it jams also played a part.
As said all manufacturers build an engine to last a finite life, so you have to buy more and so on. That is not disputable as it is economics. However a lot of smart people come up with modifications to increase engine longevity.

[CraigE]

My understanding of EGR systems (its been round for 30 odd years in oz) is the gases are recirculated to the engine at idle to help burn the unused fuel. (not all fuel is burnt at idle ) Its this cold state of the engine when first started that pushes it past the emission levels required. And is the main reason for viscus fans.(faster warm up) I studied this back in 1980 and not much in EGR systems have changed since than. Oh and I did pass.;)
Possiblly older than that. My Uncle invented an EGR set up (not called EGR as such then) back in the early 60's in Adelaide. No one was interested at the time and he could not get it marketed. Hence patent lapsed and he made nothing out of it.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Someone once likened the EGR concept to forcing somebody to breathe their farts.


Based on this theory, my dog needs to be renamed EGR..... but I don't force her, she actually likes it!!! :eek: :wasntme: :angel:

[slug_burner]

this debate has opened up a whole new can of warms :wasntme:

so it is to stop the particulates from contaminating the intake charge (and subsequently the oil) and to remove the inlet restriction (butterfly) where the gas is fed into the inlet side of the engine.

My understanding is that in petrol engines when the engine is cold more fuel than that required for the stoichiometric ratio has to be pumped into the cylinders to ensure reliable ignition, that is why the O2 sensor has to be bypassed until the engine warms up. In diesels, is there a similar issue? glow plugs and very hot air due to compression would reduce this problem. Therefore I don't know that EGR is really to overcome problems when the engine is cold (not wormed up:wasntme:).

[DeanoH]

this debate has opened up a whole new can of warms :wasntme:

....................the stoichiometric ratio has to be pumped into .


You're not kidding. I use phrases like this at 1:43 am, SWMBO just belts me and rolls over...........................

Deano

[Bush65]

... My understanding is that in petrol engines when the engine is cold more fuel than that required for the stoichiometric ratio has to be pumped into the cylinders to ensure reliable ignition, that is why the O2 sensor has to be bypassed until the engine warms up. In diesels, is there a similar issue? glow plugs and very hot air due to compression would reduce this problem. Therefore I don't know that EGR is really to overcome problems when the engine is cold (not wormed up:wasntme:).
Diesels run with much more air than the stoich... ratio.

I do know for some mechanical injection pumps, the governor goes to a maximum fuel position for starting, but when the engines starts, it goes to normal.

[Blknight.aus]

lets get this sorted.

EGR is done in both petrol and diesel engines for similar reasons in similar ways to pacify the greenies.

in a naturally aspirated petrol engine it mainly comes into effect under light throttle settings and overrun. Heres why.

when you're off the noise the throttle butterfly is closed and in theory so is the fuel supply. In reality whats happening is you're in a rich running situation with more fuel than air available so you wind up with unburnt fuel (and other nasties) heading for the exhaust. This is where EGR for petrols comes into play by opening up a port between the exhaust and the intake some of the gasses recirculate thus burning off some of the unburnt fuel(and other nasties)

A good enough reason in and of itself. but wait theres more and Im not talking a free set of steak knives and a stapler.

With the ERG open and exhaust gasses winding up back in the intake manifold the pressure in the intake manifold behind the throttle butterfly increases which does 2 things for you. First off it reduces pumping losses in the engine because theres now a lower pressure differential across the the engine so at light throttle settings less of the available power is used to draw air into the combustion chamber, Secondly (and which way this works depends on if you're talking carbies or injectors but its the same result at the end of the day) it slows the speed of the gasses in the intake manifold which in the case of a carbied engine means theres a "lesser" vacuum behind the butterfly so less fuel is drawn out of the main jet and in the case of an injected engine less air passing the air flow meter which means the injectors are turned way down on duty cycle so less fuel goes in. Oh as a bonus on the injected engines you have a higher manifold pressure so the fuel pressure regulator ups the pressure behind the injectors meaning A) the fuel that is going in is going to atomize better and therefore burn cleaner and B) when you do get round to opening the throttle you're going to get a nice dose of fuel from the get go to get things happening in a hurry.

Whatdya mean thats not enough, you still want more? Ok heres one last thing it does for ya.

IT makes the combustion process run cooler by displacing some of the fuel and some of the air(read oxygen) theres less stuff in the cylinder to burn which means less heat and a cooler running engine. This has long term advantages in terms of fuel efficiency, cylinder head/gasket life (especially on ally heads), valve life and your exhaust system.


Now I know that has bugger all to do with the TD5 cause its a diesel and its a turbo and and and... Thats just to give you the background of WHY we have EGR in the first place.

Now lets talk diesels.

A diesel engine at the end of the day is the same as a petrol engine fuel and air goes in exhaust, torque and heat come out. Same end result Very very different execution. With every variation on a theme comes its own set of problems each problem has its own solution and for once the same problem (emissions) once arrived at has the same solution (EGR).

With a petrol engine we use EGR to reduce the amount of unburnt stuff thats going out the exhaust in a diesel its the other way around when you're on a light throttle setting you have gobs of air (again read as O2) to burn but not much fuel, for those of you not familiar with the difference read on for those who are feel free to skip ahead a bit.

With a diesel every time the crank goes round the same amount of air gets drawn into the engine and spat out the exhaust, why? cause theres no throttle butterfly to vary the airflow and therefore the fuel/air mix ratio. Remember a petrol engine varies the total amount of air AND fuel thats in the combustion chamber keeping it, ideally, at a 14.7:1 ratio of Air/fuel by mass. (it cant so thats part of why we have EGR anyway) where as a diesel just changes the amount of fuel being injected into the combustion chamber. Which leaves us with the problem of lots of free air to be burnt, good for combustion and fuel economy bad for the production of oxides of nitrogen.

No, its not what you're probably thinking, Its not Nitrous Oxide that gets produced if It was I guarentee not one person would ever complain about EGR. We're talking about Oxides of Nitrogen which are far nastier to the environment and nowhere near as much fun to have in the engine.

Heres how it happens.

When youve got your diesel (turbo or not) humming along at full noise all things being as designed youve got nearly the perfect air fuel mix for diesel burning off producing a few hydrocarbon emissions (which get delt with by a catalitic converter) some nitrogen, water and lots of CO2 which is all good..

When you back off the situation changes and with less fuel but the same amount of air you wind up with lots of oxides of nitrogen and the easiest way to prevent that is to replace some of the air (21%O2 79%N) with something that not, say Exhaust gasses. The first benefit is that any unburnt gasses get another go round and the second is that you lower the oxygen and nitrogen content getting in in the first place which means lower output of nastie Noxies at the tail pipe.

Unlike the petrol engine the EGR on a diesel should only be passing gasses from the exhaust to the inlet under light throttle conditions when the potential for the production of nasties is highest. The fuel mapping that should be on a diesel (more accurately small turbo diesels) and the reasoning for having the EGR should lead to the EGR being closed off under all the following conditions, Over run and normal driving the reasonings simple.

Firstly If the engine is on over-run then the fuel rack or injector cycle should be at 0 because you dont need the engine running as its being pushed along by inertia, If the engine is being pushed along by inertia and its got no fuel theres no combustion process, if theres no combustion process your engines a compressor and you're making neither exhaust gasses or any oxides of nitrogen. If theres no exhaust gasses or oxides of nitrogen then A, you dont need EGR because the problem you're trying to solve is already solved and B, even if you did need it there's no point in having it because All you're recycling is air and why? Because on over-run a properly tuned diesel is just an aircompressor. Simple yeah.

Second situation is under power. Its a turbo diesel you put in x amount of air y amount of fuel and bingo perfect combustion. If you're making any boost then you have above atmospheric pressure to work with which means there is no reason to have anything other than perfect combustion happening in the pot come bang time. This leaves us with only one other throttle condition, A trailing throttle.

how often do you drive your small diesel on a trailing throttle?

on a trailing throttle you're in pretty much the opposite boat to a petrol engine more air than fuel with a lot more combustion temperature so you get a lot more oxides of nitrogen with very little additional heat (diesels combustion process is a lot hotter than petrols to begin with) and no unburnt fuel so you really only need the EGR to open up enough to replace the unrequired oxygen and nitrogen with something else

All good yeah, all simple and all benefits. Well yes, so long as its all working properly and designed properly in the first place.

First off Engine manufactures don't like putting this stuff in in the first place because it costs money look at the TD5 (if you have one) especially the EU3 version you've got an extra bit of casting on the exhaust manifold, a cooler, the valving, the control mechanism, more joints to make, more bits of piping and a partridge in a pear tree.... Compare it to someones TD5 whose pulled the lot off all you have is a bit of pipe, and a flange blanking plate. A lot simpler and a lot cheaper.

So why do it?

Because of the greenies.

now given that theres some benefits to be had and they can be had at no loss to performance theres no reason why we shouldnt appease the greenies. Well right up until something goes wrong.

when something goes wrong you wind up with an inefficient running engine that at best burns more fuel to do the same amount of work and at worst not only does the same amount of work burning more fuel but polluting more as well. That doesnt even take into account the increased long term wear rate on the engine which then leads to increased oil consumption. This is especially true of a diesel.

usually the first thing to go wrong is the recirculating valve sticks open or becomes sluggish which means that you wind up with spent combustion gasses getting into the combustion chamber when all you want is nice clean air and fuel. But thats not the worst bit, well not in my opinion anyway, the worst bit is that unless you do some very expensive filtering you will always be putting dirty air into the engine and this causes what I'd call premature wear.


Ok spieling done.

At the end of the day.

A correctly functioning EGR costs you nothing in terms of power nor performance especially in a turbo'd engine. Before you try the argument of "intake restriction" remember the turbocharger is forcing air past it and the MAP sensor is after the EGR valving. If the engine needs more air the turbo just pushes it in and the velocity of the air past the EGR valving increases to compensate for it. (no don't try the volume argument either if you think that way I'm going to get you to explain a carburettor to me).

What a correctly functioning EGR costs you ultimately is engine life.

When it starts to go wrong is when it starts to cost you power and performance. Honestly would you have even known that your engine even had an Exhaust Gas Recirculator on it if it hadn't gone wrong and started to cost you power/performance/fuel economy?

If your EGR is working right your only gain by bypassing it is engine longevity. If its not then you start to get some gains But they're not really gains because all you're doing is getting back to the original performance. Its a bit like saying "I fitted silicon intercooler hoses and it improved my engines performance". It might have but only because you took out an old worn out delaminating rubber hose that was restricting flow and replaced it. You'd have got the same effect by simply putting in a new rubber piece but you make a long term gain from only having to replace the hoses once as the silicone hoses last practically forever as opposed to the 3ish year life of the rubber ones.


Questions?

[Lionel]

Chipped TD5s with removed EGR still pass all MOT testing and would pass testing in AU on emissions too.

Yes, they WOULD pass the very limited MOT and AU emissions testing, BUT - car manufacturers have to comply with MUCH more stringent testing regimes, which have to be valid for the projected life of the engine, assuming proper servicing. If this were not so, they would certainly not spend money on EGR valves!

Removing a properly working EGR valve WILL increase the NOx emissions over some part of the normal working range of the engine, (in the case of the TD5, probably on trailing throttle.)

If you are happy about this, well and good, but personally, I have no desire to adversely affect the environment unnecessarily, so I won't be removing mine.

Your above statement is a little like drinking drivers who worry more about being caught, than the real point, which is the danger they cause themselves and other road users.

BTW, I'm NOT suggesting you drive when drunk!!!

Cheers,

Lionel

[vnx205]

lets get this sorted.
...... .... .... ...

Questions?

None that I can think of. :D

[DeanoH]

on a trailing throttle

Questions?

OK I'll ask the dumb question. What's a trailing throttle ?

Deano

[Blknight.aus]

not a dumb question...

before I get to answering that it needs to be pointed out that round these parts the only dumb question is the one you think of but dont ask. Guaranteed theres no fewer that 5 other people who are thinking exactly the same thing but havent asked.

A trailing throttle is essentially a light throttle application in an over run condition.

Its order of applicability is (as far as this thread is concerned at any rate)


Petrol engines

Carbied
Early injected
Modern injection

Diesel engines

Naturally aspirated
Forced induction



the reason behind that applicability in this instance is the nature of the fuel delivery control systems ability to deal with Exhaust emissions in its own right. as mentioned in the diatribe the diesels governor in its own right if all things are perfect should take care of unwanted emissions.

an example of a trailing throttle is when you're coasting down a hill and rather than lifting your foot right the way off the accelerator pedal you maintain a little throttle application.

What it causes to happen (as applicable to diesels) is a combustion condition where there is more air than fuel and a lowered combustion temperature, this is because of a change in the conditions of the combustion chamber. Instead of the bang initiating, raising the temperature and the pressure thus forcing the piston down you wind up with the bang initiating and then burning on against a lowering pressure (and therefore temperature) resulting in raised nasties being produced. (A practical example of this is if you build a fire in a fan forced hearth then put some very green wood on the top. Once the green wood starts to burn remove it from the hearth and observe how much more smoke is made.)

on very very old school engines a trailing throttle was important as it prevented the antiquated carburetors from massively overfuelling the engines and causing fouling (carbon deposits forming, oil dilution, backfiring, excessive fuel consumption yada yada yada) when on extended downhill grades which could then take up to a couple of Ks to clear up if it cleared up at all.

[slug_burner]

Dave,

Do you talk as much as you write? The weight of words alone should have any argument collapse.

[DeanoH]

Don't listen to him.

Thanks Dave for the kind words and explanation.

I was in Alice Springs 2 weeks ago and had Kayes D2 TD5 serviced at the LR dealer before returning home. Had a chat to the mechanic who also mentioned crap in the inlet. He suggested cleaning the inlet pluming with degreaser. He also noted that dust had got past the air filter and mentioned one good point of all the oily crud was that it acted as a secondary filter and helped protect the engine. Any way he cleaned it up and the power and fuel consumption has improved markedly. I didn't realise how much performance had been lost, I'd just put it down to towing the van (1500 Kg tare). Fuel consumption improved from an average of 18.5 l/100k to around 14.5 l/ 100k at 100 kmh. Nothing to do with EGR's, and perhaps more to do with cleaning around the MAF sensor, but certainly shows the difference a clean unrestricted airway makes.

Deano

[Blknight.aus]

yeah, sometimes

[slug_burner]

Dave,

I was not having a go, I was just amazed at how much you are able to type. No further questions, yet!

[stig0000]

from all this i hope that people that dont no much about cars will have a better understanding of them, and what such a diffrence little things can have on them

[Zute]

Lionel wrote:
If you are happy about this, well and good, but personally, I have no desire to adversely affect the environment unnecessarily, so I won't be removing mine.


Oh Crap, If your going to throw this into the argument, than you had better explain why your driving a large 4wd.
Did you not read about trailing throttles ?
What about all the extra energy used to manufacture an EGR system in the first place ?
If humans REALLY care about the environment we should pull the population back to about 500,000.............not gunna happen.

so lets move on. Where can I buy a removal kit ?

[clean32]

Lionel wrote:
If you are happy about this, well and good, but personally, I have no desire to adversely affect the environment unnecessarily, so I won't be removing mine.


Oh Crap, If your going to throw this into the argument, than you had better explain why your driving a large 4wd.
Did you not read about trailing throttles ?
What about all the extra energy used to manufacture an EGR system in the first place ?
If humans REALLY care about the environment we should pull the population back to about 500,000.............not gunna happen.

so lets move on. Where can I buy a removal kit ?

on the trailing throttle bit, i headed down the road in the wife's honda civic. i noticed that u used a bit of throttle heading down a hill where in the county i need a weee bit of brakes. posable there is more trailing throttle used in lighter cars?

[maysy1]

To the writer re 3.0 Patrol engines blow with egrs removed. Incorrect, as a Patrol owner and like many others we disable the egr valve by blocking it with a stainless plate. We did not like the fact the soot mixes with oil mist that will then foul the MAF sensor in the early model 3.0 and or turn to grinding paste in the engine. I as well as many others have blocked the egr many many many ks ago and havent had any dramas. But...........on a Patrol you must also fit a tdi controller to take control of the turbo vanes away from the ecu as Patrols run a variable vane set-up. This is because the ecu will lower boost to cater for the egr into the engine. Lower boost means higher egts. I personally have never looked back and my egts actually dropped by about 100c after blocking the egr, fitting the dawes controller and installing a mandrel bent 2.5" into 3.0" exhaust. The engine stays cleaner and the oil remains a nice honey colour for at least 70000kms. I know this is a Landrover discussion but just wanted to correct the comment about exploding 3.0 engines due to blocking the egr valve. NOTE: The reason I was on this site is I am thinking of purchasing a Deefer and saw this debate.

[Dougal]

To the writer re 3.0 Patrol engines blow with egrs removed. Incorrect, as a Patrol owner and like many others we disable the egr valve by blocking it with a stainless plate. We did not like the fact the soot mixes with oil mist that will then foul the MAF sensor in the early model 3.0 and or turn to grinding paste in the engine. I as well as many others have blocked the egr many many many ks ago and havent had any dramas. But...........on a Patrol you must also fit a tdi controller to take control of the turbo vanes away from the ecu as Patrols run a variable vane set-up. This is because the ecu will lower boost to cater for the egr into the engine. Lower boost means higher egts. I personally have never looked back and my egts actually dropped by about 100c after blocking the egr, fitting the dawes controller and installing a mandrel bent 2.5" into 3.0" exhaust. The engine stays cleaner and the oil remains a nice honey colour for at least 70000kms. I know this is a Landrover discussion but just wanted to correct the comment about exploding 3.0 engines due to blocking the egr valve. NOTE: The reason I was on this site is I am thinking of purchasing a Deefer and saw this debate.

My nissan work car (YD22) has as part of the EGR system an intake flap.
It's the intake flap I'd be looking at if you're finding increased EGT's. Does the ZD30 have one?

That said, I don't see the problem with the ECU cycling the boost up and down. Provided the sensors aren't poked it's not going to run hot enough to lunch your engine.

70,000km. Wow, that's a long oil change.;)

[Tombie]

To the writer re 3.0 Patrol engines blow with egrs removed. Incorrect, as a Patrol owner and like many others we disable the egr valve by blocking it with a stainless plate. We did not like the fact the soot mixes with oil mist that will then foul the MAF sensor in the early model 3.0 and or turn to grinding paste in the engine. I as well as many others have blocked the egr many many many ks ago and havent had any dramas. But...........on a Patrol you must also fit a tdi controller to take control of the turbo vanes away from the ecu as Patrols run a variable vane set-up. This is because the ecu will lower boost to cater for the egr into the engine. Lower boost means higher egts. I personally have never looked back and my egts actually dropped by about 100c after blocking the egr, fitting the dawes controller and installing a mandrel bent 2.5" into 3.0" exhaust. The engine stays cleaner and the oil remains a nice honey colour for at least 70000kms. I know this is a Landrover discussion but just wanted to correct the comment about exploding 3.0 engines due to blocking the egr valve. NOTE: The reason I was on this site is I am thinking of purchasing a Deefer and saw this debate.

My comment was a 'generic' one, based on the feedback from Nissan owners in our club..

On the TD5 the EGR can just be removed...

On the ZD30, as you have expanded on, other modifications to the vehicles fuelling system are required to prevent engine damage...
Therefore my initial statement is correct ;)

[maysy1]

sorry meant 7000kms. But I continue. The reason we take control away from the ecu once the egr is blocked is simple. As I said previously the ecu will lower boost to cater for egr, when this occurs and with the egr blocked the egts will soon creep up. The Dawes valve works by allowing the turbo to work in a traditional linear fashion. That is, more revs=more boost=lower egts but to a point. The problem with the ecu in a ZD 30 engined Patrol is it does not work in a linear fashion and will lower or raise boost according to throttle inputs and allowing for egr. The above relates to a Patrol which has a variable vane Turbo. The Navara as I understand it, has what I call a traditional turbo and is set up differently and yes it too has egr.........unfortunatley. EGR was a low tech effort to meet emissions and is a short term fix. What is more stupid is over time engines with egr actually become less efficient,blow more smoke and die before their time because they choke up on a mixture of blowby and soot which becomes grinding paste.

I wont carry on but in the future you will see manufacturers swinging away from egr as it is crude and destructive. As you can tell I am no fan myself. Anyway I didnt mean to offend or hijack the thread and I apologise in advance for any offence. Cant wait to check out some deefers.

[Dougal]

sorry meant 7000kms. But I continue. The reason we take control away from the ecu once the egr is blocked is simple. As I said previously the ecu will lower boost to cater for egr, when this occurs and with the egr blocked the egts will soon creep up. The Dawes valve works by allowing the turbo to work in a traditional linear fashion. That is, more revs=more boost=lower egts but to a point. The problem with the ecu in a ZD 30 engined Patrol is it does not work in a linear fashion and will lower or raise boost according to throttle inputs and allowing for egr. The above relates to a Patrol which has a variable vane Turbo. The Navara as I understand it, has what I call a traditional turbo and is set up differently and yes it too has egr.........unfortunatley. EGR was a low tech effort to meet emissions and is a short term fix. What is more stupid is over time engines with egr actually become less efficient,blow more smoke and die before their time because they choke up on a mixture of blowby and soot which becomes grinding paste.

I wont carry on but in the future you will see manufacturers swinging away from egr as it is crude and destructive. As you can tell I am no fan myself. Anyway I didnt mean to offend or hijack the thread and I apologise in advance for any offence. Cant wait to check out some deefers.

Any turbo engine varies boost with throttle inputs. It doesn't matter whether it has ECU control, fixed geometry, variable vane or otherwise.

EGR is still being used in all engines and will be for some time. They simply filter it better to stop re-introducing soot.
Apparently caterpiller weren't using it, but now even they have buckled. If you can't meet emissions standards, then you can't sell engines.

[maysy1]

Any turbo engine varies boost with throttle inputs. It doesn't matter whether it has ECU control, fixed geometry, variable vane or otherwise.

EGR is still being used in all engines and will be for some time. They simply filter it better to stop re-introducing soot.
Apparently caterpiller weren't using it, but now even they have buckled. If you can't meet emissions standards, then you can't sell engines.

Yes but even at a constant revs the ecu will still lower boost for egr in a ZD30 Patrol. What we found in a ZD30 was if we are cruising at say 100kph and we just feathered the throttle a tad more the ecu would then say "hey great conditions for some egr" and promptly lower boost to allow more egr. Because we had blocked the egr we had to overcome the ecu for a consistant boost. Hence a tdi controller was fitted to overcome this. But remember we are talking about a Patrol and I am sure you and your Patrol mates know why we mod them? That why I am thinking its time for a Defender, but dont tell my ,mates on Patrol4x4.com
lol

[Dougal]

Yes but even at a constant revs the ecu will still lower boost for egr in a ZD30 Patrol. What we found in a ZD30 was if we are cruising at say 100kph and we just feathered the throttle a tad more the ecu would then say "hey great conditions for some egr" and promptly lower boost to allow more egr. Because we had blocked the egr we had to overcome the ecu for a consistant boost. Hence a tdi controller was fitted to overcome this. But remember we are talking about a Patrol and I am sure you and your Patrol mates know why we mod them? That why I am thinking its time for a Defender, but dont tell my ,mates on Patrol4x4.com
lol

Why did you consider the lowering boost to be a problem that needed fixing? Did EGT's get close to four figures?

[Lionel]

Lionel wrote:
If you are happy about this, well and good, but personally, I have no desire to adversely affect the environment unnecessarily, so I won't be removing mine.


Oh Crap, If your going to throw this into the argument, than you had better explain why your driving a large 4wd.



Strangely enough, being a member of this forum, I do like to go bush on occasions.

It's a bit hard to do that in a Toyota Prius!! :p

Is that a good enough explanation?

Cheers,

Lionel

[Lionel]

Lionel wrote:

Oh Crap, If your going to throw this into the argument, than you had better explain why your driving a large 4wd.
Did you not read about trailing throttles ?
What about all the extra energy used to manufacture an EGR system in the first place ?



Actually, we are not talking about extra energy so much here, it is the production of nitrogen oxides under certain running conditions.

Perhaps YOU should read about trailing throttles! And, while you are at it read the rest of the thread - only carefully this time! ;)

Cheers, (again)

Lionel

[maysy1]

Why did you consider the lowering boost to be a problem that needed fixing? Did EGT's get close to four figures?
For a ZD30 and I am talking ZD30 we try to avoid anything over 650c post turbo. We are of the opinion high egts in conjunction with overfueling because of a filthed up MAF from egr and blowby oil, contribute to cracked pistons thus engine failure. Once again egts in an ZD30 can be controlled by upping boost but only to a point. I guess it is a fine line.

[maysy1]

For a ZD30 and I am talking ZD30 we try to avoid anything over 650c post turbo. We are of the opinion high egts in conjunction with overfueling because of a filthed up MAF from egr and blowby oil, contribute to cracked pistons thus engine failure. Once again egts in an ZD30 can be controlled by upping boost but only to a point. I guess it is a fine line.

Anyhoo the debate has been fantastic and there will always be conjecture re egr systems! Those that say nay or yay to egr. The statements made by myself is my take only. So take from it what you will. In fact dont take it at all. I will just shut up and go into the night. I think my beer is cold enough now! Might just have one.

[maysy1]

Any turbo engine varies boost with throttle inputs. It doesn't matter whether it has ECU control, fixed geometry, variable vane or otherwise.

EGR is still being used in all engines and will be for some time. They simply filter it better to stop re-introducing soot.
Apparently caterpiller weren't using it, but now even they have buckled. If you can't meet emissions standards, then you can't sell engines.

Yes looks like Cat likes egr systems eh???????
Whilst scanning through yesterdays carsguide in the Daily Telegraph I found an article about Caterpillar dumping Exhuast Gas Recirculation (EGR) across its range of new engines. CAT belives that while it is a successful way of reducing nitrous oxide emmisions it has an unnacceptable outcome for users in the form of less performance, higher fuel economy and a reducting the longevity of the engine. One of CAT's marketing mannagers went on to say, "We made EGR work, nut we just couldn't see the value for the customer. The fuel econmy was worse, there were alot more maintenance problems so we abandoned the technology.".
CAT is now using a system called ACERT which uses a package of components to reduce the formation of nitrous oxide at the combustion point through twin turbochargers (to cram as much Oxygen in as possible) and injecting fuel in a series of shots rather than a single one and variable valve timing on the inlet valve. CAT now claims a tougher, more powerful and econmomical engine than before whilst still being as clean and green. (as per article researched on Exploroz and additional mechanical engineering journals)

[Dougal]

For a ZD30 and I am talking ZD30 we try to avoid anything over 650c post turbo. We are of the opinion high egts in conjunction with overfueling because of a filthed up MAF from egr and blowby oil, contribute to cracked pistons thus engine failure. Once again egts in an ZD30 can be controlled by upping boost but only to a point. I guess it is a fine line.

If you're concerned about engine failure, then you need to shift that probe. Post-turbo temps are useless because the temp drop across the turbo varies with EGT's, boost, rpm and many more factors.

Regarding caterpillar, have you got a link to any recent articles? I can find heaps from 02-05, cat introduced EGR in 07.

[Blknight.aus]

The cat in the busmaster doesnt appear to have it.

[maysy1]

If you're concerned about engine failure, then you need to shift that probe. Post-turbo temps are useless because the temp drop across the turbo varies with EGT's, boost, rpm and many more factors.

Regarding caterpillar, have you got a link to any recent articles? I can find heaps from 02-05, cat introduced EGR in 07.

Yeh I hear ya re the position Dougal and this too has been the subject of discussion. You are dead correct in what you are saying to gain a true perspective of temps within the engine the probe needs to be pre turbo. To be honest mine is post along with many others just because most aftermarket dump pipes come with a bung prewelded and it is the old human trait of its easier to do there. In saying that I just work on the premise that if the egt gauge shows 550c post turbo it is time to take the foot off a bit. There has also been discussion of backing off at 600-650 post turbo and now in later contemplation this figure is too high for the little ZD30.

My opinion only of course there will be others who may take theirs to 600-650 but not moir. In relation to the research I did with egr many months ago. At the risk of sounding blase, just search the material from the United States and you will gain an insight. Most Universities have search engines regarding this but even then there are still fans and perhaps this is because of contributing factors of. Cost versus sales and the bottom line, I believe you discussed this anyway and are no doubt correct. My background was in earthmoving machinery and off road vehicle hire and I used keep abreast of developments and I guess I didnt really care in those days about longevity, just reliablity and cost effectiveness as we would just turn the gear over after the money was made and reliabilty became an issue but.............since now directly having to own a vehicle fiited with egr I became very interested in longevity. Hence why I dont like egr. But debatable none the less.

Dougal when you do the research, you may still agree with the concept and most certainly I respect that. Many others concur this in their research.There are authors who back it with their integrity. Mercedes, BMW.I ,mean the list is a whose who. It does the job........but I just think designers and engineers could come up with a better idea. Especially for the vehicles we love, because lets face it we have worked long and hard for them and it is in our interest to keep our 4bys fresh and willing. Let us know what you think because I have enjoyed the discussion as your points have merit,certainly from a cost aspect. Many Many multi billion dollar manufacturing companies utilise egr systems because they had to. Case point they didnt stop selling gear because of egr hey? We just learnt to live with it.

[maysy1]

This is one discussing ACERT-http://ohe.cat.com/cda/components/fullArticle'm=116060&x=7&id=346759

[maysy1]

Another interesting read. Cat's ACERT Engines Promise To Be Formidable EGR Alternatives | Environment & Natural Resources > Pollution & Environmental Impacts from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/environment-natural-resources/pollution-environmental/6232586-1.html)

[Dougal]

This is one discussing ACERT-http://ohe.cat.com/cda/components/fullArticle'm=116060&x=7&id=346759

Thanks but I'd aleady found that article, it's dated 2003 which is almost prehistoric with the rate that diesel engine emission controls have beend developing.

EGR does have it's downsides, I'm not disputing that and I don't think anyone else does either. But it seems to be an unavoidable technology right now with no viable alternative. Basically it's the lesser of all the available evils. Intake throttling was used for a while, it's impact on fuel economy was far beyond anything EGR appears to do.

Needless to say, there are a lot of very smart people working on this problem every day worldwide, spending millions looking for a breakthrough. I'm keeping an ear to the ground to see what comes around.

But at the moment the use of particulate filters (soot traps) with cooled EGR can take the soot out of the equation. This is the #1 problem which owners report and Cat reference in that article you linked in above.

[maysy1]

HA HA yeh I guess 2003 is along time ago in engineering terms. Things move quick thats for sure. But tell me guys how is the egr system plumbed on the later defenders say after 2004?
Is there a thread on here re the question?

[Blknight.aus]

2004-early 2007 they used the system on the TD5 because well they have the td5.

you have a dedicated port on the front of the exhaust manifold that ports the gass in to a tube (and also a cooler on the MY03 spec) to the controlling valve mounted between the outlet of the intercooler and the intake manifold.

pre my03 its just a valve and post my03 its a valve and a butterfly. this is all vacuum operated and computer controlled.

[jackerz]

i just want an EGR kit because it keeps less **** out of my intlet manifold...

i cleaned the inlet manifold today and it was shockingly filthy... did the intercooler and pipes too.

i know how it works, but its 100% for maintenance side of things.

[jackerz]

oooh wow, this is an old thread... haha

[scott oz]

i just want an EGR kit because it keeps less **** out of my intlet manifold...

i cleaned the inlet manifold today and it was shockingly filthy... did the intercooler and pipes too.

i know how it works, but its 100% for maintenance side of things.

The oil in the intercooler pipes and intercooler will be from the crank case breather, the man & hamel filer helps with this or just breah it to the air.