Anti-stall - bypass

[CapeLandy]

Has anyone here sucessfully bypassed the system on the Puma to keep 1'st low at idle rather than 1000 r/min.
If so was it as easy as a switch across the clutch pressure switch and did the dealers have anything to say about it.

[dullbird]

ok I'll bite WHY?

[Blknight.aus]

Id hazard a guess as the answer being.

"so that people who actually know how to drive can drive off road properly"

[Scouse]

I doubt it's going to be as easy as bridging the clutch switch as anti-stall does not work by the clutch signal.
You can idle up a steep hill in 2nd & the revs will pick up without going anywhere near the clutch.

[TimNZ]

I doubt it's going to be as easy as bridging the clutch switch as anti-stall does not work by the clutch signal.
You can idle up a steep hill in 2nd & the revs will pick up without going anywhere near the clutch.

Hi Scouse, the car is almost undrivable with the clutch switch disconnected, (unplugged), if you do decide to try it do it in an empty paddock! (Curiosity got the better of me one day). I have not tried it with the switch bridged out however.

To disable the antistall will be difficult, I don't know if it uses the speed sensor in the gearbox or the wheel sensors for the TC/ABS, or a combination of the two. No doubt someone will find a way, it may be as simple as pulling a fuse or two.

Cheers,

Tim

[dullbird]

Id hazard a guess as the answer being.

"so that people who actually know how to drive can drive off road properly"


isn't that funny I have heard sooooooo many people say how great traction control is and i'm not just talking about the Puma...far more than I have heard people say they don't like it.

and they are people that can drive also;)

[one_iota]

Id hazard a guess as the answer being.

"so that people who actually know how to drive can drive off road properly"

Having driven quite a bit of off road in an "old fashioned" Land Rover (without the aids) I would dispute this assertion.

I find with a change of technique that the new aids help.




The basic rules remain the same:
read the conditions
know the vehicle's limits
no vehicle or driver is invincible
And further more there are still furious debates in this place about when to engage the CDL.... hardly a recent driver's aid intended to assist the novice :eek: :rolleyes:

[Grockle]

Has anyone here sucessfully bypassed the system on the Puma to keep 1'st low at idle rather than 1000 r/min.
If so was it as easy as a switch across the clutch pressure switch and did the dealers have anything to say about it.

PM, KLJW(Keith) on the Defender 2 site he had it done on his auto SVX.

[Blknight.aus]

isn't that funny I have heard sooooooo many people say how great traction control is and i'm not just talking about the Puma...far more than I have heard people say they don't like it.

and they are people that can drive also;)


yet as great as it is looky what a dead simple search brings up...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/28696-traction-control-off.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/30167-there-traction-control-fuse.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/47978-turning-off-traction.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/19745-td5-xtreme-traction-control.html

and that was just 4 picked at random from the result pages.

What I really really want to see is the switch for turning off marketing **** Speak.

[TimNZ]

The way I read CapeLandys question was that he wanted to disable the Anti-stall, not the traction control. I find both systems great, however I've read that some people do not like the anti-stall as it can cause the vehicle to surge going down steep hills in Low 1st. I've found "driving" the car down hills, ie using the throttle, stops this.

Tim

[dullbird]

you are right.......Tim and I tell you why I got mixed up.

I was writing a far more aggressive response to daves comment that basically only good drivers want to turn of there anti stall......and the rest of us well! that I went on a tangent..then decided I was being stupid deleted it and started writing something a little more sedate but as it appears above not even on the topic......:lol2:

"scurry's off to dye the hair blonde"

[dullbird]

yet as great as it is looky what a dead simple search brings up...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/28696-traction-control-off.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/30167-there-traction-control-fuse.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/47978-turning-off-traction.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/19745-td5-xtreme-traction-control.html

and that was just 4 picked at random from the result pages.


What I really really want to see is the switch for turning off marketing **** Speak.

Do you have a switch?;)

[CapeLandy]

I just find 1000 rpm to fast on really steep rock decents and as hard as you try break the throttle just opens up to keep 1000.
I guess it sounds like i'll have to live with it. I just assumed because when you depress the clutch the revs drop so in theory you could fool it with a bridge. Guess not if there is a link to a speed sensor.
Anyway - interesting arguments for and against none the less.:)

[Blknight.aus]

Do you have a switch?;)

nope partly because if you want to disable it in a deefer there is an inbuilt way of doing it more because I drive a series.

[camel_landy]

Has anyone here sucessfully bypassed the system on the Puma to keep 1'st low at idle rather than 1000 r/min.
If so was it as easy as a switch across the clutch pressure switch and did the dealers have anything to say about it.

OK... I think we're getting our terminology confused here:


Anti-stall is there no matter what gear you're in.
The idle-jack raises the engine idle speed when in 1st Lo.


From your description, you're talking about the idle jack rather than anti-stall.

So, why do you want to turn it off???

FWIW - The idle jack is there because 1st Lo is sooooo low that without it the car can produce too much engine breaking and start to slide.

M

[Scouse]

nope partly because if you want to disable it in a deefer there is an inbuilt way of doing it more because I drive a series.Is there some thing missing in that sentence?
:confused:

[VladTepes]

First this is not directed at anyone personally or in particular but...

Computers whinge whinge
TC whinge whinge
anti-stall whinge whinge

for gawd's sake people you should have got a 300Tdi like I did !

[dobbo]

First this is not directed at anyone personally or in particular but...

Computers whinge whinge
TC whinge whinge
anti-stall whinge whinge

for gawd's sake people you should have got a 300Tdi like I did !


Couldn't you find an Isuzu?

[camel_landy]

First this is not directed at anyone personally or in particular but...

Computers whinge whinge
TC whinge whinge
anti-stall whinge whinge

for gawd's sake people you should have got a 300Tdi like I did !

Yep... I have to agree. If you don't want the electronic systems, get an older car!

You have to face it that electronic systems are now a fact of life for EVERY modern car and that a laptop with diagnostics have now become a part of the toolkit. (Most people carry a laptop anyway when they go on a trip.)

There's nothing wrong with having electronics, it just means that the 'old dogs' need to learn one or two 'new tricks'. ;)

M

[VladTepes]

Couldn't you find an Isuzu?

LOL, pay that !

[Blknight.aus]

I just love the way they market what is basically the governor and a high idle setting....

I'm trying to find the advertising campaign for it which has the description of what it does and its essentially a carbon copy of the definition of a constant rpm governor.

Its pinned up at M R Automotive.

[stevencam]

I reckon the idle up is real pain if you want to go real slow like when following up slow livestock or collecting hay bales, the manually operated hand throttle on my old toytroopy was much better.

It is good when tackling steep uphills, but there are times when it would be good to turn it off!

[one_iota]

Hang on here...

The low first ratio is lower than anything put in a standard Land Rover to date.

How slow do you want to go...you can get out of the vehicle and walk slowly beside it going up a steep hill.

I challenge any other Land Rover to do that governor or hand throttle including.

Going down hill is another matter although I haven't experienced this adversely yet. The Tdi used to require some throttle on really steep slippery down hill to stop the rear end from wanting to take first place

:p;)

[Blknight.aus]

sure done it with fozzy a few times times, Did it in kermit and Bug 2.0 Oh and the old longwheel base I used to run up in darwin rest it soul and it only had the petrol in it...

you forgot about the 4.7's and the other reduction obtained by dropping the tyre pressures down to zip on old school rag tyres. dincha.

I've also driven a LWB backwards with the roof off and the windshield down laying on the bonnet to see where I was going. (and theres witnesses to that)

Nice thing about the old school solution is that it works in all gears at all governable speeds. oh and it lets you up the idle in neutral if you happen to have something hanging off of the PTO or you need to leave the engine sitting and running for prolonged periods because the alternators shot and your battery went flat 2 days ago.

[one_iota]

:D

Yes you are right Dave....very heroic I would never doubt that.

But all of those seem like desperate measures...not usually associated with the daily collecting of hay bales or following stock in a standard Land Rover.

[Blknight.aus]

nahh no easier way to get across stupidly soft sand and long low angle dunes if you're driving the wagon towing the tinny..

set the choke "everyone out + push the trailer"

also surprisingly usefull in wet clay and on shingle

[JohnR]

I am contstantly amused how much time and effort some of you guy's put into slagging the newer models. :mad: Would you rather Land Rover stop production of one of the greatest 4wd's of all times? :eek: And before you say no just keep the technology out of them. They can't A. they wouldn't pass modern ADR's and B. a lot of people actually like some of the modern additions.

I thought we were here because we love Landy's or do we only love old Landy's and those of us that have the new ones are actually unwelcome gate crashers on this site?? :(

The original thread posed a question if anyone had managed to bypass Anti-stall? Some people put some decent responces up but then the thread got hijacked by modern Landy haters :mad:

I you feel so compelled to hate us, then start up a thread dedicated to it but please stop hijacking threads with serious questions.

Cheers,

[dullbird]

I am contstantly amused how much time and effort some of you guy's put into slagging the newer models. :mad: Would you rather Land Rover stop production of one of the greatest 4wd's of all times? :eek: And before you say no just keep the technology out of them. They can't A. they wouldn't pass modern ADR's and B. a lot of people actually like some of the modern additions.

I thought we were here because we love Landy's or do we only love old Landy's and those of us that have the new ones are actually unwelcome gate crashers on this site?? :(

The original thread posed a question if anyone had managed to bypass Anti-stall? Some people put some decent responces up but then the thread got hijacked by modern Landy haters :mad:

I you feel so compelled to hate us, then start up a thread dedicated to it but please stop hijacking threads with serious questions.

Cheers,

John don't take it to heart....when a couple of people that actually OWN them start making comments about how bad all the gizmo's are on it then take it to heart;).....

when it comes from other owners it would be worth listening to...its easy to become an expert when you have not driven one or have driven one once or twice and not as an everyday work horse:):wasntme:

[Slunnie]

I still think the best was the Series II.

There was nothing to go wrong in them like timing belts, computers, traction control, door seals, radios, windscreen wipers, door locks, winding window and those radial tyres that all of the city cockys use. Just rubbish they are now. They were the days when you could fix them... because you had to.

[JohnR]

Hey Slunnie,

I don't disagree the Serries II was a great machine, I used to own one :) But I do think you can have the best of both worlds with a new one. A comfy car I'd be happy to hop in and drive to melbourne with no prep but also a classic 4wd with all the heritage that came before it and awsome offroad ability.

I have lots of other cars with no electronics or fancy stuff that I can bang my head against :wallbash:

I think we can all sing the virtues of our choice of car without putting others down, you known, peace and love brother :twobeers:

Cheers,

[dobbo]

I've also driven a LWB backwards with the roof off and the windshield down laying on the bonnet to see where I was going. (and theres witnesses to that)




Yes, I was witness to David's penis measuring exercise.




I have no problems with modern vehicles, but I do like the ability to start an old school Landy with a dead battery by clutch starting it down a curb.

I like the anti stall on the new 110 but having driven both that and my suzi I can honestly say there is very little difference between this electronic improvement and having a heap of usable off idle torque from the 4BD1 on my County. I am far from the best 4WDer in the world but I still have to work hard to stall it in low range.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you think you have trouble stalling it in low range----
;):p

[Blknight.aus]

Yes, I was witness to David's penis measuring exercise.




I have no problems with modern vehicles, but I do like the ability to start an old school Landy with a dead battery by clutch starting it down a curb.

I like the anti stall on the new 110 but having driven both that and my suzi I can honestly say there is very little difference between this electronic improvement and having a heap of usable off idle torque from the 4BD1 on my County. I am far from the best 4WDer in the world but I still have to work hard to stall it in low range.

hey I'd done a long days driving and drinking was involved........

[muddymech]

Hang on here...


Going down hill is another matter although I haven't experienced this adversely yet. The Tdi used to require some throttle on really steep slippery down hill to stop the rear end from wanting to take first place

:p;)



from what i have driven off road, the puma is even better at going down hill than the 200tdi 90, it extremely slow and well controlled.

[Blknight.aus]

till you hit that magic lurchnhop speed....

the busmasters do it to if you try going downhill with the retarder on.

[JohnR]

I done many 1st gear low speed crawls and it has never "lurched" on me?? Maybe it's a different system to the Bushmaster?? It is after all a totally different vehicle and we are talking Puma's aren't we??

1st gear on a puma is lower than most, the only time it hasn't gone slow enough for me I've had to get on the clutch and come down on the brakes apart from running an auto (no Defender option?) there is no other way of avoiding it no matter what car your driving. (unless it has special dif ratio's or reduction gears, but them your taking a about customised car?)

CHeers,

[one_iota]

from what i have driven off road, the puma is even better at going down hill than the 200tdi 90, it extremely slow and well controlled.

Like I say I haven't had any bad experiences going downhill so I have been wondering what the reported fuss has been about. I was expecting it to run away but it didn't. I haven't done any greasy steep slopes though to compare it with the Disco.

[muddymech]

Dito, its a really smooth and slow in low first, very impressive.

[Blknight.aus]

on a downhill descent that isnt a single level grade (ie a rocky downgrade) there is a magic point where it cuts between idle up and over run if you happen to jag it so that its trying to do one then the other due to changing vehicle speed over obstacles on the way down (like that double drop at the top of the line you took into gunshot but worse) and the track is consistantly rough in the right way all the way down you wind up bunny hopping it down.

Ive experienced it but then I was out to do it deliberately and had stacked the deck against the vehicle to make it happen to see if it would. you can also make it happen on the way up a hill if you're in the situation where the high idle isnt giving you enough but you need to slow right down (a torn up shale climb for example) but its nowhere near as noticable...

there are of course very simple ways to get around these problems outside of just turning the damn thing off but you cant just turn it off.

[dullbird]

on a downhill descent that isnt a single level grade (ie a rocky downgrade) there is a magic point where it cuts between idle up and over run if you happen to jag it so that its trying to do one then the other due to changing vehicle speed over obstacles on the way down (like that double drop at the top of the line you took into gunshot but worse) and the track is consistantly rough in the right way all the way down you wind up bunny hopping it down.

Ive experienced it but then I was out to do it deliberately and had stacked the deck against the vehicle to make it happen to see if it would. you can also make it happen on the way up a hill if you're in the situation where the high idle isnt giving you enough but you need to slow right down (a torn up shale climb for example) but its nowhere near as noticable...

there are of course very simple ways to get around these problems outside of just turning the damn thing off but you cant just turn it off.

Must be very magical haven't experienced it yet;)

[one_iota]

Dave,

I can imagine that that could happen particularly when there are mixed conditions: ledges and loose gound.

In the Disco I could use the accelerator and brake together (right foot and left foot) to ease down steps and slatey stuff. I couldn't do that in the Defender because it would have other ideas.

(But the 3dr 95 300Tdi Discovery was the best Land Rover ever made)

[stevencam]

Hang on here...

The low first ratio is lower than anything put in a standard Land Rover to date.

How slow do you want to go...you can get out of the vehicle and walk slowly beside it going up a steep hill.

I challenge any other Land Rover to do that governor or hand throttle including.

:p;)

The puma does have the lowest first gear, but sets engine speed at 1000 rpm no matter what so the 62 to 1 ratio at 1000rpm still gives a faster ground speed than a 40 to 1 ratio at 600 rpm. Going by the spec sheet I thought the puma to able to go 35% slower but because of the idle up runs 6% faster.
Not an issue for normal driving but if you set the vehicle going then get out to load up or feed out the slower the better.
I have not had any issues with the anti stall, but If you tackle the obstacle in the wrong gear its going stall. If your in first gear with a few revs up its sure to be digging holes before it stalls, antistall or not.
As this post was about disabling antistall / idle up features I thought I might post some reasons why one may want to do so:)

[JohnR]

So Dave where did you take a Puma on a test drive that you could experience all of this? :eek2:

I respectfully disagree with you Dave. We are talking about "anti stall" arn't we? Not engine braking? I have never managed to acidently stall a vehicle on a decent :eek: I believe what you are talking about is bad throttle control i.e. geting on it too quickly after using the engine braking. And as for making it do it up a hill I am sure anyone can make their car kangaroo by getting on the throttle at the wrong time, but again to use the anti stall you don't actually have to touch the throttle :confused:

Dave you must live in a truly magical place :toilet::toilet::toilet:

If any Puma "owners" out there are experiencing any of these problems please tell us as I am really starting to worry cause mine might be faulty it's not having any of these "reported" problems :p

Cheers,

[Allan]

Ive read all the arguments between old and new Landrovers on this thread. My Puma has taken me to places my old 300d and series 11 with lots of mods could not do around Exmouth WA. On the other hand my sons D1 went to the same places, with only 2 inch lift and bfg muds, but he has more balls than me and his vehicle is only worth a few grand. Who wins?? Money I gues

Allan

[Blknight.aus]

Puckapunyal on one of the advanced fourwheel drive training tracks, and yes its the antistall that does it..

on a ledged descent when you go from engine braking because you're under gravity and overrunning then into a step which means you go from over running to under power then back to overrun repeatadely and rapidly. not helped by ABS+TC coming on and off all the time while the vehicle's cocking wheels on the way down.

technically its more to do with "little engine big vehicle" engine braking dynamics but the problem is exagerated by the higher idle.

And yes like I said, a specifically designed track to bring out the weak points of a vehicle.

[CapeLandy]

the second clip in neutral on the breaks was better for me but on a hard surface still relatively safe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/Landy1973/th_LowRange.jpg

[dullbird]

I would of thought being in neutral would have been dangerous...I noticed it looked quite steep as your arches at the back had a lot of space in them and I think I saw your rear wheel lift also..

if you had started to slide of tip how would you have got out of that in neutral?

I'm only asking as I don't off road a manual but I was under the impression that there are situations where you need put a little bit of power on.

if your low was too fast can I ask why you didn't just dip the clutch?...surely dipping the cltuch but having the option of being in gear must be far safer

[Blknight.aus]

I'll back you most of the way dullbird but when it comes to dipping the clutch thats a no-no. ( I suspect that in this instance it was done purely for demonstrationy not instructional purposes)

When Im teaching offroad driving for technical ascents and descents my teaching is "Once you have the vehicle moving in your desired gear take your left foot off of the clutch pedal and hook your toes under the clutch pedal and pull back"

everything else you sort out with either the loud pedal or the brakes and you dont touch the clutch till you are at the next safe stopping point. (no points for clutch free shifts either)

the reason I teach that way is that in the event of a panic situation most students will hit the clutch instinctively with your toes under the clutch pedal all you get is a foot full of flootwell.

[dullbird]

oh sure but when I say dip the clutch I mean with the foot on the brake also which would give the desired effect of what he did in the video only I would think safer as when you come back of the clutch and the brake you are still in control of the car...

I appreciate your supposed to drive off road not using the clutch....but I have also seen people driving off road (this was on the same day) not using the clutch and some very abled bodies using the clutch and I can tell you the people that occasionally used the clutches were the ones that look and appeared to have FAR more control over there cars and what they were doing..

Just an observation thats all

EDIT: I also got the impression that, that is how he drives in the video and he was giving us a demonstration as to why...perhaps I have that wrong though but that's how I took it

[Blknight.aus]

ahh, ok, my mis read yes in the instance of the video, I agree, rolling in gear with the clutch in would have been the safer of the 2 bad options.

There are some situations where you do need to use the clutch offroad yes but the basic teaching and the basic rule is keep off of the clutch. The theory is that if something goes wrong it usually goes wrong in a known way and that there is less potential damage in a stall out or by having to rev the ring out of the motor (all diesels have governors so you cant make them over-rev by throttle alone). Its also accepted that if you had the clutch dis-engaged and you drop the clutch hard enough with enough of a mismatch between engine and transmission that you can cause yourself to loose traction (which can be useful occasionally) from wheel spin or from the low speed equivalent of compression lockup (which usually isn't).

[ashtrans]

Hi,

to get back on topic,

does anyone know if it is possible to turn off the anti stall on a puma ?

[spudfan]

Is the anti-stall fitted to all Puma's irrespective of whether they have TC/ABS fitted?
For those who dislike modern day Land Rovers with all the high tec. hardware and wish for the return to the simplicity of older models, it is quite possible to have the old vehicle of your choice rebuilt to as new specification.So if you are that dead set against the newest incarnation - and quite probably the last as we know it - you do have a choice. Personally I am very happy with the new incarnation. It shares garden space with the series 111 and the 200 tdi.

[dullbird]

just buy a 130

[TimNZ]

Hi,

to get back on topic,

does anyone know if it is possible to turn off the anti stall on a puma ?

Short of remapping the ecu to disable the anti-stall and idle jack features it would be a trial and error thing to figure out. To disable the idle jack you could try disconnecting the low range sensor and/or the speed sensor on the Transfer Box.

If you allow the car to roll forward slowly in low range the idle jack activates almost immediatly, but it is not so noticable in hi range, so disconnecting the low range sensor only might be enough to fool the ecu. This may also disable the anti-stall.

Cheers,

Tim

[TimNZ]

Is the anti-stall fitted to all Puma's irrespective of whether they have TC/ABS fitted?
For those who dislike modern day Land Rovers with all the high tec. hardware and wish for the return to the simplicity of older models, it is quite possible to have the old vehicle of your choice rebuilt to as new specification.So if you are that dead set against the newest incarnation - and quite probably the last as we know it - you do have a choice. Personally I am very happy with the new incarnation. It shares garden space with the series 111 and the 200 tdi.

From what I gather the TC/ABS system is seperate to the anti-stall/idle-jack functions. As for your second point you are dead right! Thats the beauty of the defender, it is timeless and eaisly modified. Like you said if you don't like the new one rebuild an other one with your choice of engine/gearbox/what ever else you want.

I personally like the features of the puma, sure there are some occasions when I miss my 89 County, (fitted with a 4 cyl 3.5l Nissan diesel), which had its own verson of anti-stall, ie it would kill itself before it would give up and stall! But for me the good features of the Puma far out way the good features of my old County.

Tim

[Blknight.aus]

theres nothing you can do to disable antistall. Its been around since the steam engine and has another name, Its called a Governor. with the exception of the steam engine if the engine is running then its "Anti-stall" is enabled..

[TimNZ]

So he wants to remove the governor then.......

[Blknight.aus]

it'd make getting it to idle or maintain speed a very interesting event.

I think he wants to disable the hi-idle function.

[TimNZ]

I think he wants to disable the hi-idle function.

I'd say so. It can be a bit un-nerving, and some cars seem to be more aggressive with the idle jack than others. My 110 isn't too bad and I have grown used to it.

Tim

[one_iota]

Short of remapping the ecu to disable the anti-stall and idle jack features it would be a trial and error thing to figure out. To disable the idle jack you could try disconnecting the low range sensor and/or the speed sensor on the Transfer Box.

If you allow the car to roll forward slowly in low range the idle jack activates almost immediatly, but it is not so noticable in hi range, so disconnecting the low range sensor only might be enough to fool the ecu. This may also disable the anti-stall.

Cheers,

Tim

From what I can gather by observation in high range the engine idles at about 850 rpm when the wheels are turning dropping to 750 when stationary. In low range it idles at 1000 rpm when the wheels are turning.
This suggests that there is a low range switch.

[camel_landy]

How do you disable anti-stall?

You can't... End of!

It is effectively in every single modern day vehicle with electronic fuel injection.

One of the inputs on an ECU is the engine idle speed. If the ECU decides that the engine is running too slow, it will increase it... Which is exactly what anti-stall is. The only real difference is that the LR guys have tweaked the parameters which it works within and turned it into a 'feature'.

Even the TD5 has 'anti-stall'...

If you don't like it, either learn how to drive it properly or get rid of it!

Luddites...

M

[TimNZ]

From what I can gather by observation in high range the engine idles at about 850 rpm when the wheels are turning dropping to 750 when stationary. In low range it idles at 1000 rpm when the wheels are turning.
This suggests that there is a low range switch.

Hi Mahn, there is a switch shown in the workshop manual:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1312.jpg

Cheers,

Tim