Leaking Brakes

[chris1983rangie]

hi,

Besides my steering problem, ive also had problems with my brakes.
bleeding them is a piece of cake but after we bled them and got the landy off the stands prior to a test drive, i notice a drop of fluid on the garage floor. hmmmm....! not good.

so i jacked the beast up on stands took the wheels and drums off to find fluid droplet under the piston rubber boot same for all sides. What could be causing this? they are new wheel cylinders.

the only thing that could come to my mind that the seals are dodgy and i could be using the incorrect brake fluid. i used pbr super dot 3 brake fluid. it says yellow dot, suits Toyota's......Hmmmm......!:angel: yellow dot i thinks is higher operating temp.

im going to change fluid type and replace all seals with pbr brand. the surfaces inside the wheel cylinders are smooth and quite shiny.
is the surface better shiny or slightly roughed up?

also just a note i pulled my original cylinders out of the shed these units are the ones i pulled of the landy when i was stripping it down. i noticed the seals on these when i pulled them apart just to compare the old seals to the new one's, there was a difference. the new ones look different could they be the incorrect type?

what Brake Fluid do you all use?

cheers,

Chris.

[JDNSW]

Either DOT3 or DOT4 fluid will work perfectly with the Series 1.

Leakage from all wheel cylinders suggests that the seals are either faulty or incorrect. When you say they look different, in what way? There could be differences that don't matter.

Most hydraulic cylinders have a slightly matte finish, but a polished surface should seal. If the seals are not sealing, and there is no damage to the cylinder bores, the seals must be damaged or are the wrong size, or are not making sufficient pressure against the cylinder walls; this could be because they are the wrong seals, or because they have been stored for too long and have deteriorated, losing their "spring".

It is possible the edge of the seal may have been damaged in assembly if this was done without using rubber grease, and it is possible that the seals may have been damaged by contamination of the fluid - not much contamination is needed. Rubber brake components can be damaged just by handling with slightly oily hands, and it is possible that some contamination has found its way into the system, possibly from penetrating oil used to free up unions. If this is suspected, flush the whole system with metho.

John

[chris1983rangie]

Thanks John,

also just to note, i bought these Wheel cylinders from Ebay UK, who knows where they were made and what the quality of the seals are obviously faulty.

anyways i did order a new set front and rear in the PBR brand. hopefully this should sort my problem out.

the part no's below if anyone needs em.

Front's

RH P5021
LH P5022

Rear's

RH P5029
LH P5030

cheers,

Chris;)

[chris1983rangie]

ok heres some pics of my orig pbr cylinder on the left and the ebay one on the right. Chris;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1473.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1474.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1475.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1476.jpg

this is the front cylinder these didnt leak much at all just a couple of drops.
but im still changing the lot over anyways.....!:cool:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1477.jpg

[JDNSW]

It may be a problem with the photo, but the new rubber seals do not look as if they have a sharp edge up against the cylinder wall. If this is really the case, it is undoubtedly why they leak, but I am mystified as to why they would be like that - I have never seen it.

John

[Grockle]

I think it's a quality issue Chris,as you said where are they from,better buying localy of a known brand,especialy brake items.

[chris1983rangie]

hi John & Grockle,

yea sorry the pics arent that good but yes that top edge of that seal has a 45 degree chamfer, one of the guys told me at the brake clutch co that its a double seal designed to stop air from getting back into the cylinder as well as stopping fluid from getting out.

I still think where it is made and the type of rubber quality manufactured is important too. anyone can copy a design but if you compromise the quality of material used than this is where problems begin...........so much for ISO standards and Quality Control. Its a real pitty things arent made in Australia anymore........!

oh well i got my new set today from PBR and they are ready to fit tomorrow so i let you all know how i go...!

"Stick With the Brands mate"

cheers Chris;)

[chris1983rangie]

hi all,

ok i installed my new cylinders on the rear axle & re fit brake shoes, springs and drums.

i adjusted the shoes with that adjusting nut on the backing plate, then fit the road wheels i can turn the wheels by hand fowards but it locks going backwards.

does any one know why it does this? maybe i got the leading and trailing shoes wrong way around. is that possible?

also just to note i have a series 2a rear axle assembly fitted.

any suggestons would be appreciated.

thanks,

Chris

[JDNSW]

Both shoes are the same, although the cylinder end of the lining on the trailing shoe must be chamfered, and the leading one you can get away without this, so it is possible that only one is chamfered and you have them swapped. The only other possiblity I can see is that the pull-off spring at the bottom is broken, stretched or incorrectly assembled, although I don't see how you could do this.

John

[chris1983rangie]

hi John,

there is no chamfer on any ends of the lining even on the end of the trailing & leading shoes nearest the wheel cylinder. how many degrees do i chamfer?

Chris.

[JDNSW]

The angle is not specified, and is probably not critical, but closer to 20 degrees than 45. All the book says is "Chamfer both ends of each lining" (but as far as I can see it really only matters at the cylinder end)

John

[chris1983rangie]

i have chamfered the lining approx 20 degrees like you mentioned and i roughly measured what i could see in the diagram in the manual.
you can see the chamfer on the brake lining in that side view diagram.

ok turn the wheel foward and backward and the brake still catches when rolling it backwards it does it on both sides.:eek:

The fronts dont do it at all, so i'll go tomorrow and buy new springs for the bottom because like you mentioned i could of over stretched them.

thanks for your help,

cheers Chris;)

[chris1983rangie]

hi all,

ok i went this morning to buy a pair of new springs for each side of the rear brake shoes, just the bottom springs i got.

i removed the existing ones and compared them to new and they had been stretched to approx 4-5mm difference.....! i fit new springs and put the drums back on i tried moving backwards and there was slight improvement.

so i took the drums off and gave the top egde of the trailing shoe i light file. i also cleaned the drums with brake cleaner gave them a good wipe and put them back on. and it goes backwards.

as mentioned in my steering thread, i took the Landy for a test drive this evening and besides good steering results the brakes work really well and and the brake booster makes a diffrence too.

so i pull up back home and go to back up the driveway and i start to reverse and the rear brakes start to grab again but they don't lock completley they have a slight grab and make squeling noise.

the only thing i can think of now is to change the shoes because they did get soaked in fluid when the first set of cylinders leaked. i did clean them but maybe they expanded. has anyone ever had this problem before?

no major leaks yet just noticced a bit of fluid on each side at the bottom of the backing plate but no drops on the floor. i only noticed fluid from the pipe unions into the cylinders so ill give them a tighten.

ill get there in the end just gota keep trying.....!

cheers,

Chris.

[Grockle]

hi all,

ok i went this morning to buy a pair of new springs for each side of the rear brake shoes, just the bottom springs i got.

i removed the existing ones and compared them to new and they had been stretched to approx 4-5mm difference.....! i fit new springs and put the drums back on i tried moving backwards and there was slight improvement.

so i took the drums off and gave the top egde of the trailing shoe i light file. i also cleaned the drums with brake cleaner gave them a good wipe and put them back on. and it goes backwards.

as mentioned in my steering thread, i took the Landy for a test drive this evening and besides good steering results the brakes work really well and and the brake booster makes a diffrence too.

so i pull up back home and go to back up the driveway and i start to reverse and the rear brakes start to grab again but they don't lock completley they have a slight grab and make squeling noise.

the only thing i can think of now is to change the shoes because they did get soaked in fluid when the first set of cylinders leaked. i did clean them but maybe they expanded. has anyone ever had this problem before?

no major leaks yet just noticced a bit of fluid on each side at the bottom of the backing plate but no drops on the floor. i only noticed fluid from the pipe unions into the cylinders so ill give them a tighten.

ill get there in the end just gota keep trying.....!

cheers,

Chris.

Good luck Chris.do the shoes look 'thicker' since being drenched in fluid?

[chris1983rangie]

hello Grockle,

im not sure if they look thicker but i have been told they can swell if they get soaked in fluid. ill replace the shoes and hope this sorts out my problem.

cheers,

Chris;)

[lane]

Something's wrong, Chris. Surely it won't be swelling of the lining. Are the shoes originals, or after-market ones? I wonder if they are slightly longer than standard, or something like that? Can you photograph one of your assemblies in situ with the drum off?

[chris1983rangie]

Hi Lane,

yeah ill take a series of photos for you and post them on the thread as soon as i get a chance. yeah i got a feeling they could be the wrong type and yes they are after market ones.

i still have my origonal drums and 4 good sets of shoes that come off the Landy origionally i kept them as spares. they are oversized drums with oversized shoes and they still have plenty of meat on them. Do you think it would matter if i put the old O/S drums back on the rear axle with its matching O/S shoes? although the fronts are new?
what do you think?

thanks for your help,

cheers,

Chris;)

[lane]

As long as the shoes match the radius of the drums, they should be fine. You know you can get shoes re-lined?

I really feel for you. Such a lovely car and it must be frustrating to have purchased brand new gear which turns out to be out of spec or poor quality!

[JDNSW]

Hi Lane,

yeah ill take a series of photos for you and post them on the thread as soon as i get a chance. yeah i got a feeling they could be the wrong type and yes they are after market ones.

i still have my origonal drums and 4 good sets of shoes that come off the Landy origionally i kept them as spares. they are oversized drums with oversized shoes and they still have plenty of meat on them. Do you think it would matter if i put the old O/S drums back on the rear axle with its matching O/S shoes? although the fronts are new?
what do you think?

thanks for your help,

cheers,

Chris;)


No problems. As long as the shoes match the drums.

John

[chris1983rangie]

As long as the shoes match the radius of the drums, they should be fine. You know you can get shoes re-lined?

I really feel for you. Such a lovely car and it must be frustrating to have purchased brand new gear which turns out to be out of spec or poor quality!

yep, i can get them relined if need be thats good to know, ill try my O/S drums and shoes first and see what happens from there on.

what can i say, yes it is fustrating and the fact that there is such crap out there on the market especially brake items:mad: quality items have long deminished......!

so i guess i goto keep pressing on and stay positive.

no worries mate,

cheers

Chris;)



but just have to keep on going

[dane h]

Chris,

Thanks for the post. Must be the week for it. My 86 is also at about the same stage. Bled the brakes on the weekend to discover one badly leaking rear and soaked lining. A few years unused hasn't helped what looked good at the time.

... off to BGT for some new linings and cylinders to match the front.

Your 86 is looking good. I completely understand the frustration when your so close to driving :)

Stay positive!

Dane

[dane h]

another question on the brakes Chris.

Where did you end up getting the wheel cylinders? BGT no longer source new and would only re-sleeve. Preference is to change to new as simpler and less brake fluid to paint the drive during the process.

cheers

Dane

[chris1983rangie]

i bought my rear cylinders from Trade Brake and Clutch Co in Springvale/Clayton Vic and put a PBR kit through them from AutoSurplus.
Trade Brake and Clutch Co (http://www.tradebrake.com.au/default.htm)

Automotive Surplus in Mitcham Vic have Brake Cylinder kits.
Automotive Surplus Online (http://www.autosurplus.com.au/)

and the Fronts which were PBR units, got them from Repco

these are the PBR part no.s
Front cylinders

RH P5021
LH P5022

Rear cylinders

RH P5029
LH P5030

you can also try fourwheel drives in Blackburn http://www.fwd.com.au/
or Rover Parts Plus in Ballarat http://www.roverparts.com.au/
try these not sure what hey have but woth asking. European Auto Imports. Vic http://www.eai.net.au/

hope this helps,

Chris;)

[Grockle]

hello Grockle,

im not sure if they look thicker but i have been told they can swell if they get soaked in fluid. ill replace the shoes and hope this sorts out my problem.

cheers,

Chris;)

Have you sorted it yet Chris?

[chris1983rangie]

hi Grockle,

nahh not yet, a bit busy at the moment with work during the week hope fully get onto it on Fri arvo and on Sat.

Chris;)

[chris1983rangie]

G'day,

My brakes don't leak anymore, everything is all good.
i think the shoes were grabbing caus they got soaked in fluid and softened them.

drove the landy again today and it drives very good as well as it stops.
the brake booster makes a difference.

so onto the next thing, seat belts.

thanks all for your help,

Cheers,

Chris;)