Turbo upgrades

[philco]

I am interested to know if anyone has done a turbo upgrade kit or their own upgrade on a 300Tdi???????????
I see a couple of kits available for approx $2400 but want to know if anyone has done it and how it goes in their 300Tdi

[Bush65]

IMHO the best value would be to have the turbo high flowed (and refurbished at same time). Increase boost setting of wastegate to approx 18 psi, adjust fueling of injection pump (egt gauge required), clean any buildup from inside the intercooler and fit silicone hoses. If you then need a little more power and response, upgrade the exhaust system to lower back pressure.

If you don't think that will be good enough, then you should look into a kit with a variable nozzle/VGT turbo.

One obstacle when you want to upgrade the 300Tdi turbo is that the turbine housing is integral with the manifold - when you remove the stock turbo, you don't have a manifold to mount another turbo on. This increases the cost significantly.

So if you are not in a hurry, search for a 200Tdi manifold at a reasonable price, then you can look for a better turbo - if not a VNT, then a good ball bearing turbo.

But you will need to increase the fueling or you have wasted your time and money. A VNT turbo will give more boost at lower revs but for an improvement at the higher end, you need to burn more fuel - the turbo upgrade will provide more air to burn the increased fuel cleanly.

[rijidij]

I bought a 300 Tdi 130 from another member on here who had just fitted an Alisport VNT kit with upgraded intercooler and radiator and fueled up. I am quite impressed with the performance. It goes much better than the Td5 Defender that I just sold.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/663.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/664.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/743.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/661.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/662.jpg

[philco]

Thanks guys for that, I looked at the ALLI Sport one and emailed them a few questions, it looks good but was not sure of cost to bring in the country. How did you get on?
Also a higher flow intercooler would help???

[rijidij]

Thanks guys for that, I looked at the ALLI Sport one and emailed them a few questions, it looks good but was not sure of cost to bring in the country. How did you get on?
Also a higher flow intercooler would help???

The previous owner imported the kit, so I'm not sure what the total cost was to get it here.

A bigger intercooler will deffinately help if you plan to turn up your fueling, and fitting an EGT gauge is highly recommended to keep temperatures at a safe level.

Cheers, Murray

[klappers]

Thanks guys for that, I looked at the ALLI Sport one and emailed them a few questions, it looks good but was not sure of cost to bring in the country. How did you get on?
Also a higher flow intercooler would help???

Yes, a larger intercooler will help. I am just in the process of sorting out something to upgrade the power of my 300tdi... exhaust would be a good start, as would a larger cooler. Fueling is also critical. But, you are going to need fuel to match the boost.... whilst it is good for diesels to run lean, (that's the deal with diesels) to lean and they run hot. So you would need more fuel THROUGHOUT the rev range! Not just up top. I have not had a look at my mechanical injection pump, but I would assume that there is built in boost compensation. To a point. Hence the need to "wind in" more fuel to get the stoic mix right. :)

[Bush65]

... Fueling is also critical. But, you are going to need fuel to match the boost.... whilst it is good for diesels to run lean, (that's the deal with diesels) to lean and they run hot. So you would need more fuel THROUGHOUT the rev range! Not just up top. I have not had a look at my mechanical injection pump, but I would assume that there is built in boost compensation. To a point. Hence the need to "wind in" more fuel to get the stoic mix right. :)
Nope!

A higher air to fuel ratio will help a diesel run cooler, and will lower EGT.

Diesels run considerably higher air fuel ratios than stoic... usually about 22:1 at full load (will be much, much higher at light load). Smoke ratio is about 18:1 and stoic... is about 14:1.

The 300Tdi has a boost compensator - it is there to reduce fuel as boost pressure (hence air) drops, and so reduce smoke for pollution reasons.

With an upgrade turbo, more fuel will usually be needed to spin a larger turbo up to obtain higher boost pressure (because it is driven by the energy in the exhaust gas), as well as to make more power. However upgrading to a VNT turbo of similar size could see some improvement without more fuel, but will still perform better with sensible increase in fuel.

You won't make more power just by adding more air to a diesel engine (adding air to a petrol engine will increase power because the carbie/F.I. system will correct the air fuel ratio).

[philco]

So a 200Tdi manifold will be better to add a new turbo, as the waste gate is attached to the turbo instead of the manifold? so doesn't matter on turbo type? I was looking at a Garrett T28 or T30 to fit with a 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust and no mufflers

[rick130]

The 200Tdi Disco manifold is better as it uses a T25 type bolt on flange, and scuttlebutt used to be that it flows better than the 300Tdi manifold anyway.

There's a thread here from a while back where I posted some phone pics of a 200Tdi manifold on a 300Tdi which is a Bruce Davis upgrade.

[rick130]

<snip>
...with a 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust and no mufflers

oooh, you don't want to do this, you wont like it, unless you are absolutely stone deaf and don't mind the cabin becoming the exhaust resonator at 100km/h. ;)

Use a decent muffler and resonator. I made the entire system originally without any sort of muffler at all. Bad mistake.
The resonance right at 100km/h was unbearable, (300Tdi, 130 CC) as was the overall noise.
3" tube really amplifies the noise over a stock pipe diameter without a muffler.

I now have a small straight through muffler and resonator and it's still obnoxiously LOUD. :eek:

[Bush65]

So a 200Tdi manifold will be better to add a new turbo, as the waste gate is attached to the turbo instead of the manifold? so doesn't matter on turbo type? I was looking at a Garrett T28 or T30 to fit with a 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust and no mufflers
Nothing to do with the waste gate. The 300Tdi has the complete turbine housing cast intergral with the exhaust manifold - when the old 300Tdi turbo is removed, you don't have a manifold that another turbo can bolt up to.

If you get a 200Tdi manifold, then you can swap to any turbo with a compatible flange or use a flange adapter.

Some of the Garrett T28's should be ok on a 300Tdi - use one with a small A/R turbine housing and do not go too large with the compressor wheel. IMHO a T30 will be far too large for a 300Tdi.

[philco]

Thanks guys, I had thought of a 2 1/2" pipe mandrel bent, so if i put a small muffler on to reduce the noise that would be better? the T28 turbo do I have to specify the type of wheels, bearings etc for it? as the T25 has a tag with the specs on it.
How do i know what type of T28 to buy? as seen so many diff specs for T28, could i use a 2nd hand 1 from a jap wreckers?

[philco]

Does any one know of a 200Tdi manifold for sale???????:ohyes::ohyes:

[Bush65]

Thanks guys, I had thought of a 2 1/2" pipe mandrel bent, so if i put a small muffler on to reduce the noise that would be better? the T28 turbo do I have to specify the type of wheels, bearings etc for it? as the T25 has a tag with the specs on it.
How do i know what type of T28 to buy? as seen so many diff specs for T28, could i use a 2nd hand 1 from a jap wreckers?
I did some quick investigation using the Squirrel Performance Turbo Calculator (http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/) From several sets of data that I input, a Garrett turbo that looked good to me was the GT2259. More info on the Garrett GT2259 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT22/GT2259_452214_3.htm) and pdf file with flange data (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt22_pdfs/Garrett_GT2259_452214_3_new.pdf)

That Squirrel calculator is based on the methods given by Garrett for sizing turbos. The Garrett info are available as PDF files Part 1 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/Turbo%20Tech%20101.pdf), Part 2 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/Turbo%20Tech%20102.pdf), Part 3 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/Turbo%20Tech%20103.pdf), Part 4 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/DieselTech.pdf), and Part 5 (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/Garrett_Turbo_System_Optimization.pdf) The important parts for sizing are 3 and 4.

If you look at 2nd hand Garrett turbos, the numbers are usually on the compressor housing. They most likely will not have the GT2259 or similar designation, so you need to look up the numbers in a Garrett catalogue (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/products/catalog.html).

The designation GT2259 is deciphered as:

The first 2 numbers e.g. 22 is the frame size - dictated by its turbine wheel inducer (inlet side - is the large diameter of the turbine wheel) diameter.
GT22.. is 50.3mm diameter
GT25.. is 53mm diameter
GT28.. is 53.8mm diameter
GT30.. is 60mm diameter
GT.... ..........

The last 2 numbers is the compressor exducer (outlet side - is the large diameter of the compressor wheel) diameter.
GT..54 is 54mm diameter
GT..59 is 59mm diameter
GT..60 is 60mm diameter
GT.... ..........

An 'R' after these 4 numbers designate roller bearings. A roller bearing turbo will spool up quicker. You will need to restrict the oil inlet if fitted in place

Other information you need from the catalogue include:
A/R of the turbine. Smaller A/R will provide more boost at lower rpm - this is what we need with diesel engines. Generally (but not with 300Tdi) it is a simple to replace the turbine housing for a different A/R - a common tuning procedure.
Trim of compressor wheel - enlarging trim will increase air flow capacity of the compressor wheel.

[malsgoing130]

A diesel Mech mentioned that they used to swap out the turbines on the stock 300tdi with those from an isuzu, he mentioned it in passing and I should have questioned him further;) has any one done this or heard of this before, he did mention "big" increase in performance.
cheers
mal

[Bush65]

A bit more info, but sadly I can't find as much information as I would like.

200Tdi turbo is Garrett TB0242, 465171-0001/2 or 465175-0001 - I don't know turbine and compressor wheel sizes.

300Tdi turbo is Garrett T250-4, 452055-4E - I don't know turbine and compressor wheel sizes, except rough measurement of compressor inducer is approx 38mm.

TD5 turbo is Garrett GT2052, 452239-0003/4/5E - compressor wheel - inducer 37.6 mm, exducer 52.2 mm, turbine wheel - inducer 47.0 mm 72 trim A/R 0.5

TD6 (disco 3) turbo is GT2256V - I don't know turbine and compressor wheel sizes except GT22.. should be 50.3 turbine inducer and 56 should be compressor exducer. These are variable geometry turbo - which has similar affect as changing A/R from smaller at low boost to larger at high boost.

The HS2.8TGV engine (2.8 litre development from 300Tdi) also uses a GT2256V turbo - the 300Tdi performs well with these turbos fitted.

The turbo that Murray has on his 130 defender (post above) is a GT2556V - this has a larger turbine wheel (I assume 53mm inducer), but remember it has variable geometry.

IMHO, unless you want to really work the injection pump over and fit 3" mandrel exhaust, and unless you use a variable geometry turbo, you should not go bigger than a GT22.. size turbo with small A/R (around 0.5 A/R). The upgrade will come from using a bigger compressor - something bigger than 52mm exducer as used on TD5 and up to 60mm if you want to push the boost pressure up to around 22psi (so probably between 52 and 60mm).

The 3.0 litre Nissan GU's have a variable geometry turbo - I don't know details, but given they are 3.0 litre diesel, the size will probably be good for upgrading a 300Tdi.

[slug_burner]

Do we know what vehicles we will find the GT2256V on?

If I was looking for a second hand one I would like to go looking in the right wreckers yard.

The next problem after that will be having to sort out the control of the vanes (I don't know if that is what they are called, I mean the control surface used to maintain gas speed for varying gas volume) as one thread that I saw on a UK forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=29453&view=findpost&p=290473)the control circuit used vacuum and a digital/ECU control signal. Swapping to a pressure driven diaphragm resulted in a lot of experimentation with spring rates.

[Bush65]

Do we know what vehicles we will find the GT2256V on?

If I was looking for a second hand one I would like to go looking in the right wreckers yard.

The next problem after that will be having to sort out the control of the vanes (I don't know if that is what they are called, I mean the control surface used to maintain gas speed for varying gas volume) as one thread that I saw on a UK forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=29453&view=findpost&p=290473)the control circuit used vacuum and a digital/ECU control signal. Swapping to a pressure driven diaphragm resulted in a lot of experimentation with spring rates.
The pics below are cropped screen captures from a garrett 2006 catalogue.

These show all of the GT22..V variable geometry turbos in that catalogue.

AFAIK many computer controlled diesels use a vacuum actuator. The only one I know of that is used without computer control is the HS2.8TGV engine (2.8 litre development from 300Tdi) which uses a GT2256V turbo. It is listed at the top of the 3rd pic under Navistar (current name of the engine manufacturer)part no 724652-0001. This turbo has a boost pressure actuator - I can give you more details.

I can't see why a boost pressure actuator can't be used. I am familiar with the thread you are talking about - IMHO the person made it more difficult than it should be (and it was not a garrett turbo).

Edit: reloaded 1st pic as column titles had been cropped.

[slug_burner]

Thanks Bush65,

It looks like either Merc or bmw are the wreckers to look in.