What's more environmentally friendly, a Disco/Defender V8 or Diesel?

[3 Sisters]

Just having a small debate with a mate.
What's better to drive for the environment A Disco or defender with a V8 or a Diesel? (Leaving bio diesel out of the equation).
And what about LPG, meant to be better, but carrying the same speed, load, etc is it?
And what about LPG Diesels?
Please post links to any good sites with info, I've found a fair bit so far, but nothing %100 solid.

[dullbird]

The most environmentally friendly car would the early series cars that are still on the road ;)

the longer are car lives the more environmentally friendly IMO:)

[V8Ian]

The most environmentally friendly car would the early series cars that are still on the road ;)

the longer are car lives the more environmentally friendly IMO:)
Quite true Lou, the exhaust emmisions are relatively negligable. By far the most polloution is generated in the manufacture and disposal of all goods.

[JDNSW]

Before you can settle the question you have to decide what you mean by environmentally friendly! Then you have to decide what period of use you are going to consider, then specify what happens to the vehicle after it ceases to be used. Then you have to specify what mileage it will do per year, and how it will be driven.

John

[V8Ian]

Before you can settle the question you have to decide what you mean by environmentally friendly! Then you have to decide what period of use you are going to consider, then specify what happens to the vehicle after it ceases to be used. Then you have to specify what mileage it will do per year, and how it will be driven.

John
And select the parameters according to the result you want.

[3 Sisters]

The most environmentally friendly car would the early series cars that are still on the road ;)

the longer are car lives the more environmentally friendly IMO:)
I have a 53 Willys jeep as my daily driver, it weighs a ton.

Quite true Lou, the exhaust emmisions are relatively negligable. By far the most polloution is generated in the manufacture and disposal of all goods.But both cars would cost(environmentally)about the same, as only engines are different.
Hence why I said ..............."to drive", sorry if I didn't word that better.


Before you can settle the question you have to decide what you mean by environmentally friendly! Then you have to decide what period of use you are going to consider, then specify what happens to the vehicle after it ceases to be used. Then you have to specify what mileage it will do per year, and how it will be driven.

JohnI think how it will be driven(ie loads, lead foot, stop starts, etc)is the main argument. I guess time frame is relivant, as engine life differs.


And select the parameters according to the result you want.
LOL, yeah, seems that way, especially with most of the stuff I've read so far.
So in short, do you guys not know? Or will the variables make such a difference?

[Chops]

I have a table here that I got off the net through an email that deals with total cost,, "Dust to Dust".
This equates everything from the drawing board, processing, manufacture, to the tip/recycling end of things.
This came about to shut some people up about how good the Prius was supposed to be.
In 2005-2006, some 322 cars were anylised, and the Range Rover Sport, and Discovery come in below the Prius,, :D An FJ Cruiser is just below them in cost,, but the Land Cruiser is well above total cost, :o

This reprt was telling of the fact that the Prius, although cheap to run, was far more expensive overall to even the Hummer. It pointed out facts like the substance used to make the special batteries was mined in the U.S. and then shipped (by boat) to Europe somewhere, processed, and then shipped back to the U.S..
One of the biggest problems is the 50sq miles around the processing site, which is now void of any life forms due to the acid rain, so much so, that it is used by NASA and the like, to train their guys for something,,(not sure what).

So, as has been said by Dullbird and V8Ian, the longer a car can run for, the cheaper it is in the longrun. This is one of the plights with the Prius,, "short life span"....
So all these things should be taken into account when discussing your topic,,

[JDNSW]

So in short, do you guys not know? Or will the variables make such a difference?

The only difference between the two is the engine, and the differences between a V8 on LPG and a diesel as far as driving emissions go is fairly small (and could go either way) - the higher compression of the diesel plus the recovery of exhaust energy from the turbocharger means a higher Carnot cycle efficiency compared to the V8, and this will probably about cancell out the difference in carbon intensity of the two fuels.

This leaves other factors to consider. One of these is that the V8 will probably encourage more enthusiastic and hence fuel wasting driving. But against that, the diesel weighs a little more - but it does not have to carry round as much fuel on average or the LPG tank.

The V8 has a lot larger proportion of aluminium in its construction, and this is much more energy intensive than steel or cast iron, but the effect of this on overall lifetime emissions is very dependent not only on engine life, but on what happens to the engine after it is scrapped. And this is also affected by things like how repairable is the engine, which will affect the service life of the engine, and hence very likely the vehicle. And while the design and manufacturing emissions for a vehicle are fixed once it is sold, the amount per kilometre (the usual measure) is obviously very dependent on the life of the vehicle. In a similar manner, long lasting designs "owe" less per unit for design and development emissions, so, for example, the long lived V8 almost certainly represents lower emissions per engine than, say, the relatively short lived TD5.

John

[willem]

The only difference between the two is the engine, and the differences between a V8 on LPG and a diesel as far as driving emissions go is fairly small (and could go either way) - the higher compression of the diesel plus the recovery of exhaust energy from the turbocharger means a higher Carnot cycle efficiency compared to the V8, and this will probably about cancell out the difference in carbon intensity of the two fuels.

This leaves other factors to consider. One of these is that the V8 will probably encourage more enthusiastic and hence fuel wasting driving. But against that, the diesel weighs a little more - but it does not have to carry round as much fuel on average or the LPG tank.

The V8 has a lot larger proportion of aluminium in its construction, and this is much more energy intensive than steel or cast iron, but the effect of this on overall lifetime emissions is very dependent not only on engine life, but on what happens to the engine after it is scrapped. And this is also affected by things like how repairable is the engine, which will affect the service life of the engine, and hence very likely the vehicle. And while the design and manufacturing emissions for a vehicle are fixed once it is sold, the amount per kilometre (the usual measure) is obviously very dependent on the life of the vehicle. In a similar manner, long lasting designs "owe" less per unit for design and development emissions, so, for example, the long lived V8 almost certainly represents lower emissions per engine than, say, the relatively short lived TD5.

John

Yes, this is the right approach to take. All else being equal, which is the most environmentally friendly ...

John makes good observations here. I would only add two more:

Diesels require more servicing than petrol motors. This can have a greater impact on the environment - more oil, filters, etc, are used.

The particulate matter in diesel emissions is quite carcinogenic, more toxic than the emissions of an LPG powered engine. So even if the emissions are about the same, the effect of the emissions on people are different.


Willem

[TerryO]

Yeah Chops I think most of us would really like a link to where that report is.

Being able show the more fanatical greener people I know that their misconceptions about reality are based on a car companys PR rather then facts would be really good thing.

Cheers,
Terry

[PAT303]

I have a table here that I got off the net through an email that deals with total cost,, "Dust to Dust".
This equates everything from the drawing board, processing, manufacture, to the tip/recycling end of things.
This came about to shut some people up about how good the Prius was supposed to be.
In 2005-2006, some 322 cars were anylised, and the Range Rover Sport, and Discovery come in below the Prius,, :D An FJ Cruiser is just below them in cost,, but the Land Cruiser is well above total cost, :o

This reprt was telling of the fact that the Prius, although cheap to run, was far more expensive overall to even the Hummer. It pointed out facts like the substance used to make the special batteries was mined in the U.S. and then shipped (by boat) to Europe somewhere, processed, and then shipped back to the U.S..
One of the biggest problems is the 50sq miles around the processing site, which is now void of any life forms due to the acid rain, so much so, that it is used by NASA and the like, to train their guys for something,,(not sure what).

So, as has been said by Dullbird and V8Ian, the longer a car can run for, the cheaper it is in the longrun. This is one of the plights with the Prius,, "short life span"....
So all these things should be taken into account when discussing your topic,,

One of the moms in my sons soccer team bought a Prius and it does nothing that Toyota said it should.On the highway it gets 5ltrs/100 and around town it uses 6 which is no better than my 12 year old VW Polo used to get,and I didn't spend 40 grand either. Pat

[Chops]

Yeah Chops I think most of us would really like a link to where that report is.

Being able show the more fanatical greener people I know that their misconceptions about reality are based on a car companys PR rather then facts would be really good thing.

Cheers,
Terry

Hi guys/gals,

The email it came with I couldn't find last night,, it will take going through a fair section of my history,, but I will do my best. The table makes more sense when you have the email to read.
The next thing is the "table" that I do have, is in/on an Excell worksheet,, can I upload that? If not, let me know how I can get it on here, I'm happy to try and do so.

[3 Sisters]

The Prius is definitely ironic but I still find it a step in the right direction, and as a learning process and by people having a say by buying them, may in fact turn out to become environmentally beneficial in the long term.
Personally, I can't wait to see a big advancement in electric cars, I reckon they will be excellent, so good for many applications, including 4WD.
I look forward to seeing racing electric cars, and their advancement.

[PAT303]

It won't happen,electric power is a dead end.Bio is the future. Pat

[JDNSW]

Electric cars may become viable for city use (and I hope they do), but even in that application they demand a better battery (in the sense of charge density, efficiency, cycle life, cost and charge rate) than anything currently available. Typical endurance of the very best available today is around 150km, with a recharge time of hours.

Compare this to a typical small diesel sedan, with a range of close to a thousand kilometres and a refuelling time of minutes.

And then there is the problem that widespread adoption of electric cars would mean a substantial increase in generating capacity - and put this against the background that Australia's greenhouse emissions are mostly from power generation.

And I see little advantage in hybrids - as a typical example, the local health service here has a couple. In 100% country driving, they give worse economy that the Corollas they have, and have less room. And you could do even better by buying small diesels, which would also cost less.

John

[Mudsloth]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the v8 does the most damage on simple fuel consumption alone. A well tuned diesal should get twice the milage a v8 does. i know my v8 chews fuel like its going out of fashion amd if i'm having a serious off road day she'll use half a tank in 100 ks. Im very seriously condidering selling my v8 and changing over to a diesal, with a chip and a bigger turbo installed into a td5 i reckon the major difference will be fuel consumption. I guess i could get rid of the 37 inch wheels, that may save some fuel but who's gonna look at me then?!

[rick130]

[snip]
Diesels require more servicing than petrol motors. This can have a greater impact on the environment - more oil, filters, etc, are used.



Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that.
TD5 scheduled serving is 20,000km, Tdi's are 10,000km, it's just that people choose to over service them IMO.
Most tdi's go over 250,000km before people even think of pulling injectors.
No plugs, leads to replace either.
Then we have the (usually) inherently longer serviceable life of a diesel vs a petrol engine.

Yes, all very debatable.



The particulate matter in diesel emissions is quite carcinogenic, more toxic than the emissions of an LPG powered engine. So even if the emissions are about the same, the effect of the emissions on people are different.


Willem

True, but being negated in modern diesels with particulate traps.

[TerryO]

Hi Mudsloth,

you say your thinking of getting rid of your V8 to buy a diesel because it will be cheaper to run.
In all seriousness why not just fit LPG to your V8? A V8 on LPG is cheaper to run then a diesel and is cleaner for the enviroment if that is a concern.

LPG also is also not an imported fuel like diesel, which is even better for the country.

Add to that the cost of changing over vehicles which would be quite high, stamp duty etc and chances are you would be much better off having dual fuel fitted to your V8 then buying a diesel.

just a thought...

Cheers,
Terry

[Hoges]

Who cares... :eek::twisted::wasntme::angel: (about hypotheticals that is;)

[3 Sisters]

Anyone that isn't consumed by their small penis syndrome.
Sorry overlooked the hypothetical cloak;)

[bee utey]

If you live within 10km of the CBD and like commuting in traffic jams, buy a Prius.
If you live within 100km of the smog and see a lot of highways, run a V8 on LPG.
If you live 500-1000km from the big smoke, buy a turbo diesel and you can even clean it up with LPG enhancement.
Horses for courses, tools for the job etc