Weight distribution hitch

[NeilW]

I have heard from a number of people that I can't fit an after market WDH to my Series 2 Disco because of the ACE. Is this true? Also does any know where I can buy a height adjustable tow ball tongue?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hi Neil:D
Welcome to AULRO.COM.


Lots of D2 owners on here use WDH's,,,

Its using them with air suspension that creates havoc,,,
I dont particularly agree with the concept but,, its not my car.;)

[BigJon]

If it is a Land Rover towbar it is also not recommended. If you have a Hayman Reece bar it is OK.

Having said that I also agree with Pedro. A properly set up van shouldn't require extra bits to make it towable.

[NeilW]

Thanks for the advice. I am currently towing a 16 1/2ft pop top, but I am looking for a 19 to 20ft full van. I don't have air suspension so that shouldn't be a problem. I think I'll wait until I get the new van and see how it tows.

[Grumpy]

I have a 16ft Windsor Sunchaser goes 1.7 odd tonne fully loaded with 210kg on the ball. Have no problems towing with air suspension.
Put air bags in the coils. You loose turning circle and clearance with the wdh.

Tony :wheelchair:

[jmkoffice]

I agree with Tony, I used to tow a 1.8T Jayco 17' poptop with no need to ever consider a WDH. I added bags to keep the car level and ensured the tow-ball weight was as low as possible. You are allowed 250kg, I kept mine to around 190/200kg by balancing the load in the van, admittedly the van was tandem axle with a ball weight of 175kg empty.

[d2dave]

Ball weight should be 10% of total weight of van so if van is 1.8 ton ball weight should be 180 KG.

Dave.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Ball weight should be 10% of total weight of van so if van is 1.8 ton ball weight should be 180 KG.

Dave.

The above is an urban myth.

why anyone believes its ok to place THAT much weight on a tow hitch is beyond me,,

[seano87]

The above is an urban myth.

why anyone believes its ok to place THAT much weight on a tow hitch is beyond me,,

The NSW RTA have a information pamphlet on towing trailers, and in that it even states as a general rule, towball load should be 5-10% total trailer mass.

Which is all a little ridiculous if you have a 3t trailer, I sure wouldn't be wanting up to a 300kg load on the ball. I think 5% is about all it ever should be.

Slightly off topic but still related - at times I tow a rowing boat trailer - 12.5m trailer, 13.5m with rear overhang when loaded, between 2-3t depending on load. Such a trailer is custom made, if it were to be made strictly according to ADR's, the axles have to be so far back that the ball weight was going to be about 450kg unless huge dead weights were put into the rear of the trailer. Needless to say rowing boat trailers are never 'quite' within allowed dimensions... btw I tow that with a S1 Discovery, no load distribution hitch - handles surprisingly well, overall towball load is usually around 150kg. Use polyair bags to maintain levelness.

Seano

[DeanoH]

.....................and ensured the tow-ball weight was as low as possible.

Don't even think about it. This is an absolute recipie for disaster. If the weight balance in your van is wrong, ie. too light on the tow ball, it'll become uncontrolable. You've seen trailers, vans with the 'sways' up ? This is why. You're better off to have too much weight on the tow than too little.
Theres a real good reason why the 10% rule of thumb is there. It's called "choose life". And it is a rule of thumb; another one is........"If you can lift the draw bar on a single axle van it's probably too light".

I can't recommend polyairs too highly. Lets you set ride height, doesn't affect turning circle or draw bar articulation. You can also use them to balance your ride when heavily laden and not towing. They'll certainly stop your rear springs from flattening out. I also found them useful when crossing the Simpson Desert (not towing) as they stopped the rear suspension from bottoming out when the shockers got too hot and gave up.

Deano

[Pedro_The_Swift]

ball weight has nothing to do with swaying vans,,,

vans have NEVER been designed to be towed,,

they are designed to look pretty and be SOLD.

[DeanoH]

...........................ball weight has nothing to do with swaying vans,,,


Sorry Pedro, I disagree.

Ball weight = weight distribution = stability/instability. Insufficient weight on the tow = swaying van = potential disaster.

What's your theory ?




......................they are designed to look pretty and be SOLD.

Can't argue with this one though.

Deano

[Pedro_The_Swift]

weight distribution??

why should the tow vehicle have to carry any weight??
isnt this why they put wheels under caravans?

I grant you a single axel van is much harder to get right,,
but anything with dual axels should sit on its own/level with no jockey wheel,,

because the makers CANNOT make a saleable/pretty van handle they have moved the axels backwards. All the new vans have the axels waaaaay down the back,,,


and distributed the responsibility back to the car manufacturers.

[Rosscoe68]

weight distribution??

why should the tow vehicle have to carry any weight??
isnt this why they put wheels under caravans?

I grant you a single axel van is much harder to get right,,
but anything with dual axels should sit on its own/level with no jockey wheel,,

because the makers CANNOT make a saleable/pretty van handle they have moved the axels backwards. All the new vans have the axels waaaaay down the back,,,


and distributed the responsibility back to the car manufacturers.

i agree. there seems to be a lot of confusion with people betwen a "weight distribution system" and a "sway control device" they are not the same people, so all of you guys that think a weight dist will stop swaying on a badly loaded van...........
a sway control device is a device similiar to a shock absorber which resists swaying movement of a trailer tongue sometimes caused by passing vehicles and wind, and thus controls swaying. not commonly used in australia although probably should be.
a weight distribution system is a hitch system built around a receiver hitch, which includes supplemental equipment such as spring bars that work to distribute trailer tongue loads to the trailer axle(s) and the tow vehicle front axle. Use of weight distribution system enhances handling and braking and increases trailer towing capacity beyond what is recommended when a weight-carrying hitch is used.

both these devices can be used together, but rarely are. seems to be a lot of ppl use the weight dist system to flatten out a badly loaded van and assume it does both jobs.

[StephenF10]

weight distribution??

why should the tow vehicle have to carry any weight??
isnt this why they put wheels under caravans?

I grant you a single axel van is much harder to get right,,
but anything with dual axels should sit on its own/level with no jockey wheel,,

because the makers CANNOT make a saleable/pretty van handle they have moved the axels backwards. All the new vans have the axels waaaaay down the back,,,


and distributed the responsibility back to the car manufacturers.

A van that sits balanced on its own wheels is an accident waiting to happen. How do you think the towing vehicle can have ANY control over the van if the van is free to do its own thing? There MUST be a substantial amount of weight (rule of thumb says 10% of the van's weight) on the towball so that the towing vehicle can exert some control over the van.

Think about it. A van with little or no ball weight can react to every little sideways force (road surface, airstream from passing traffic) and pass that waddle on to the tow vehicle. There was a fatal accident involving a van in SA some years ago. The driver lost control when passing a semi. The coronial enquiry found that the accident was largely due to insufficient ball weight, allowing the van to be affected by the manoeuvre and push the tow vehicle off the road. A photo of the van shows the tandem axles pretty well at the centre of gravity.

Another thing; air bags are NOT a substitute for a WDH. They may raise the rear and level the vehicle, but they do nothing for the weight that is removed from the front wheels by plonking a bloody great weight on the towbar. Granted, with a heavy 4WD like a LR the weight removed may not substantially affect steering or braking, but the principle is valid.

Stephen.

[MarknDeb]

Thanks for the advice. I am currently towing a 16 1/2ft pop top, but I am looking for a 19 to 20ft full van. I don't have air suspension so that shouldn't be a problem. I think I'll wait until I get the new van and see how it tows.


Gday, mate we tow with a WDH and did use it in the LR towbar untill Toombie2 advised it is possible doing this can twist the chassis so we are in the process of changing to a Hayman Reece bar, our van has a ball weight of 210kg and without the WDH the car sits down in the bum, a set of pollie air bags inside the springs would also solve the problem. My advice would be to install a HR bar and use the WDH even if you want to go the extra bit install a set of pollies and the tow vehicle would be spot on and never have to worry. ;)

[DeanoH]

weight distribution??

why should the tow vehicle have to carry any weight??
isnt this why they put wheels under caravans?

I grant you a single axel van is much harder to get right,,
but anything with dual axels should sit on its own/level with no jockey wheel,,

because the makers CANNOT make a saleable/pretty van handle they have moved the axels backwards. All the new vans have the axels waaaaay down the back,,,


and distributed the responsibility back to the car manufacturers.

Sorry Pedro, still disagree.

Heres why.

1/. Many years ago towing race car to NSW for hill climb. Monaro towing XU-1 on tandem trailer. On the way up XU-1 pointing forewards on trailer, no problem towing at 120KPH. On the way back had XU-1 backwards on trailer. Got to 100KMH nearly lost the lot with swaying/instability. Only thing that saved us was locking up the electric trailer brakes to pull us up. Not enough weight on draw, turned XU-1 around all fixed.

2/. Two years ago following 16' half cabin on single axle trailer. Boat slipped back on trailer about 1'. Boat pulled up on safety chain OK but trailer now light on tow, started to sway. Hurriedly dropped back and moved behind semi in RH lane. Semi passed boat trailer and 'wind' from semi was enough to send boat trailer into uncontrollable sway. Car and boat jackknifed. Boat and trailer tipped. Car, boat and trailer all wrecked. Fortunately no one hurt. Boat moved ,not enough weight on draw.

3/. A month ago, towing 1500Kg tare 15' single axle van up South road North of Alice Springs. Went to overtake road train, speed 105Kmh van starts to sway badly. Pulled up manually with electric van brakes. Problem here was unknown to me SWMBO had put box of beer, box of Coke and box of tinned food under rear bed in van, about 4' 6" behind the axle. Moved this weight to under seat about 3' in front of axle. Now safe and stable at 120 Kmh. Problem here not enough weight on the draw/too much weight behind axle.

Sorry Pedro you're wrong !

Deano

[Pedro_The_Swift]

not wrong,,

if you are silly enough to load incorrectly then these things happen,,,

if the trailer has a neutral weight fore and aft WHY would it display bad manners???

its physics,,
if the van has no effect on a towing vehicle when stationary,, how does this change in an emergency??
but if the van/whatever has ALREADY compromised the load carrying capacity of the car , and something happens, your safety margin has already been shot to hell,,,

and I can match you trailer for trailer, car for car,
tandem , triple, box,

the simple truth is,
and think about this for a sec,,

if only SOME can do it and not have problems,,

that means the rest are doing something wrong,,








and if one more person mentions a thumb,,,
:rocket:
:p

[Rosscoe68]

Sorry Pedro, still disagree.

Heres why.

1/. Many years ago towing race car to NSW for hill climb. Monaro towing XU-1 on tandem trailer. On the way up XU-1 pointing forewards on trailer, no problem towing at 120KPH. On the way back had XU-1 backwards on trailer. Got to 100KMH nearly lost the lot with swaying/instability. Only thing that saved us was locking up the electric trailer brakes to pull us up. Not enough weight on draw, turned XU-1 around all fixed.

2/. Two years ago following 16' half cabin on single axle trailer. Boat slipped back on trailer about 1'. Boat pulled up on safety chain OK but trailer now light on tow, started to sway. Hurriedly dropped back and moved behind semi in RH lane. Semi passed boat trailer and 'wind' from semi was enough to send boat trailer into uncontrollable sway. Car and boat jackknifed. Boat and trailer tipped. Car, boat and trailer all wrecked. Fortunately no one hurt. Boat moved ,not enough weight on draw.

3/. A month ago, towing 1500Kg tare 15' single axle van up South road North of Alice Springs. Went to overtake road train, speed 105Kmh van starts to sway badly. Pulled up manually with electric van brakes. Problem here was unknown to me SWMBO had put box of beer, box of Coke and box of tinned food under rear bed in van, about 4' 6" behind the axle. Moved this weight to under seat about 3' in front of axle. Now safe and stable at 120 Kmh. Problem here not enough weight on the draw/too much weight behind axle.

Sorry Pedro you're wrong !

Deano

sorry to say but i see two common denominators in these 3 scenarios,
1: driver
2: speed

common sense to me would say that if i am going to overtake a roadtrain at 105klm/h towing a 15' windsail on the back, there is a pretty large chance its gunna get hit with the air wave off the road train, and guess what, possibly make it sway,
xu1 facing backwards is an aerodynamic brick, forwards not too bad
boat held on a trailer only by a chain after dropping back a foot is probly going to sway, guess thats just pure physics

[DeanoH]

Pedro, some of your points I do agree with But not perhaps your logic on others.



if you are silly enough to load incorrectly then these things happen,,,


No problems here, I guess it's about how you define incorrectly. In the three examples I gave all were instability problems solved by increasing weight on the tow. Therefore I conclude the problem was caused by insufficient weight on the tow initially.



if the trailer has a neutral weight fore and aft WHY would it display bad manners???


Perhaps the difference is that when you have more weight behind the axle, sideways forces acting on this weight tend to twist the trailer around its pivot point (axle) puting force on the tow bar in the opposite direction. A bit like when a live axle goes down the other end goes up. When there is more weight in front of the axle this isn't an issue as this weight tends to dampen this effect. Each Kg of weight more than a neutral load in front of the axle tends to a/. decrease that force by 1 Kg and provide a dampening of 1 Kg. A double benefit if you like. I don't really know the explanation I'm not a rocket scientist. But I do know this, low weight on draw = instability = disaster. :eek:



its physics,,


You're right It's physics. I'm not a physicist so I can't explain it. I can see the effect (instability) and I can resolve it by altering the load balance in the trailer. So to me the cause and effect are pretty clear. :D



if the van has no effect on a towing vehicle when stationary,, how does this change in an emergency??


When their moving, the forces on both the towing and towed vehicle are different and constantly changing. No comparison to being stationary.



but if the van/whatever has ALREADY compromised the load carrying capacity of the car , and something happens, your safety margin has already been shot to hell,,,


No argument here.



and I can match you trailer for trailer, car for car,
tandem , triple, box,


Pointless exercise.



the simple truth is,
and think about this for a sec,,

if only SOME can do it and not have problems,,

that means the rest are doing something wrong,,


Or perhaps they are doing it (towing) right and just don't recognise it ! :)

Sorry Pedro I still reckon your'e wrong.

Just as well wer'e not doing this over a beer, we'd end up not knowing what the hell we were arguing about.

Deano

[DeanoH]

A couple of points here Roscoe


sorry to say but i see two common denominators in these 3 scenarios,
1: driver
2: speed



1: In each of the cases I gave there was a different driver, in the car trailer scenario she was a highly skilled and competant professional racing driver. In the boat incident he was just some poor bloke coming back from a long weekend and in the caravan scenario it was yours truly.

2: As for speed, in the car trailer scenario it was on the Hume Highway and yes we were speeding, naughty us, but we were being left behind by the Melb - Sydney overnighters. Different times different ways.
Excessive speed wasn't the issue with the boat trailer, probably doing 80 k's when it all started to come apart. With the caravan 105 K's is no issue either safety wise or legally. Speed limit 130K's in the territory, and no I don't tow at these speeds. I normally travel at 100 - 110 but tested after moving weight at 120 just to make sure all was OK.



common sense to me would say that if i am going to overtake a roadtrain at 105klm/h towing a 15' windsail on the back, there is a pretty large chance its gunna get hit with the air wave off the road train, and guess what, possibly make it sway,


Only if the van was poorly loaded which it was initially. Moving just 30 kg in the van solved the problem. After that no issues overtaking , so obviously draught from road trains not an issue for a corectly loaded and balanced combination. an amazing difference for such a small amount of weight transference. Correct draw weight is essential for stable and safe towing, and correct draw weight is not neutral.



xu1 facing backwards is an aerodynamic brick, forwards not too bad


What !!! The XU-1 is a two door Torana, it would be just about the same aerodynamically forwards as backwards. Even backwards it's still more aerodynamic than a Land Rover forwards. And you don't see them flying off the road whenever they're carried on a trailer.



boat held on a trailer only by a chain after dropping back a foot is probly going to sway, guess thats just pure physics

You're exactly right, too much weight behind the rear axle and it became unstable. All was OK till it slipped back. Just slid back gently taking up the strain on the rear straps until the chain took up. Then it all went pear shaped. The draft from the semi was just the straw that broke the camels back.

There is no doubt in my mind that insufficient weight on the draw or too much weight behind the axle, same thing really causes instability with towing combinations that can lead to disaster. Neutral loading is not just silly its suicidal. Your owners manual gives the maximum downward force you're allowed on the tow with a fair safety margin. I'd stick to the 10% rule up to this weight and seek professional advice if it became less than 5%. I won't call it a rule of thumb cos I don't want Pedro to shoot me.

:rocket:

Deano

[MarknDeb]

sorry to say but i see two common denominators in these 3 scenarios,
1: driver
2: speed

common sense to me would say that if i am going to overtake a roadtrain at 105klm/h towing a 15' windsail on the back, there is a pretty large chance its gunna get hit with the air wave off the road train, and guess what, possibly make it sway,
xu1 facing backwards is an aerodynamic brick, forwards not too bad
boat held on a trailer only by a chain after dropping back a foot is probly going to sway, guess thats just pure physics

What world would you pass a road train on by doing 105klm, when we went to Winton we had to pass a road train (4 trailers) and if we had of done 105 i would have never got passed before another came the other way, i had to get upto 140 and the car did it just fine the trucky even commented on how good our set up was and how well it travelled at the speed, no not trouble with buffeting at all smooth as.

[d2dave]

There is a mob in melb called Hardings Caravan Services. This is a highly respected company. They do every thing from repairs to running clinics on the do's and don'ts of caravaning. They say to have 10% on the draw bar.

Also SWMBO's fairlane has a factory fitted tow bar which has a load placard on it.

This says: Max tow capacity 1600 KG, Max Ball weight 160 KG.

All trailers can sometimes sway but if loaded correctly will correct itself.
Incorrectly loaded is sort of like a leverage effect. The extra weight makes what would normally be a small sway into a larger sway. When the trailer tries to correct itself the excess rear weight then throws the trailer harder the opposite way and so on getting more violent on each sway.

Dave.

[dullbird]

can I ask dumb question.....I dont own a trailer yet! what is loading a trailer correctly?

is it just distributing it evenly across the whole frame?

have a certain weight on the ball and a certain weight over the axles?

is it just literally avoiding heavy things at one end regardless of which end?

sorry for all the questions to curious....as this is something we will need to learn and know

[Crackerjack]

I have a 16ft Windsor Sunchaser goes 1.7 odd tonne fully loaded with 210kg on the ball. Have no problems towing with air suspension.
Put air bags in the coils. You loose turning circle and clearance with the wdh.

Tony :wheelchair:

Doesn't anyone find this weight excessive for a landrover (210kg), I don't care what brand of tow hitch you use, it is still attached to the car and the car can only take so much, eg the rear axle capacity.
It is clearly stated in the handbook the maximum weight on the towball is 150KG

[d2dave]

Dullbird,
Have a read of this.

Dave.

Trailer & Tow vehicle specifications explained | Motoring Advice | RACQ (http://www.racq.com.au/motoring_advice/about_your_car/towing/trailer__and__tow_vehicle_specifications_explained )

[d2dave]

Below is a quote taken off Haymen Reece web site.

A: Ball weight refers to the weight on the front end of the trailer not carried over the axles. As a rule you should aim to have 10 percent of the total trailer weight as ball weight. This can be measured at a weigh bridge by resting the jockey wheel only on the scale.
Alternatively Hayman Reese distributors have a Ball Weight scale with which you can measure your ball weight by placing it under the coupling and winding the weight off the jockey wheel.


Dave.

[Rosscoe68]

What !!! The XU-1 is a two door Torana, it would be just about the same aerodynamically forwards as backwards. Even backwards it's still more aerodynamic than a Land Rover forwards.
:rocket:

Deano

bwahah
that made me laugh a little :)

[Rosscoe68]

A couple of points here Roscoe

There is no doubt in my mind that insufficient weight on the draw or too much weight behind the axle, same thing really causes instability with towing combinations that can lead to disaster. Neutral loading is not just silly its suicidal. Your owners manual gives the maximum downward force you're allowed on the tow with a fair safety margin. I'd stick to the 10% rule up to this weight and seek professional advice if it became less than 5%. I won't call it a rule of thumb cos I don't want Pedro to shoot me.

:rocket:

Deano

ahh, i think this is where my opinion differs, and where i apparently didn't elaborate. i do not put any weight at the rear of a trailer/van, thats just asking for the pendulum to swing against you. i put all the weight directly over the axle which is the weight bearing point of the van and as far as i can see is the practical place for it. drawbar can be lifted fairly easily with 2 hands, had it weighed at one point at 85kgs on a 1500kg van. there is next to no weight at rear of van as all is there is the foam bed. i have never had wind wobbles, even on 110klm/h freeway but i have regularly been sucked sideways by passing trucks going either way, but my van is old an terribly un-aero. still do not agree with putting so much weight on the rear chassis/suspension of a vehicle. but then i am not an engineer, just go from what works for me on the road.

[Rosscoe68]

A couple of points here Roscoe

Your owners manual gives the maximum downward force you're allowed on the tow with a fair safety margin. I'd stick to the 10% rule up to this weight and seek professional advice if it became less than 5%. I won't call it a rule of thumb cos I don't want Pedro to shoot me.

:rocket:

Deano
and yet the D2 is handbooked at 3500kg tow weight and the tow bar max ball weight is 150kg as stated on the factory fitted landrover towbar. go figure ...

heh, although i just realised that is landrover and whoever said they knew what they were doing in the first place :)

[PhilipA]

Didn't anybody on this thread do a google???

I recall just a couple of months ago a European University studied caravan stability factors individually.
eg the placing of weight , towbal weight, speed etc

I am not sure this is the study but it says the same things

Bailey of Bristol - Caravan Stability Studies (http://www.towingstabilitystudies.co.uk/stability_studies.htm)

Europeans have always stated that towball weight should be about 7 % , and the study confirmed this. Funny the 10 % bit is a US and subsequently Aussie thing as Hayman Reese is a US comapny.

The study indicated that the placing of weight at the ends of the

Caravan, towball weight and speed were main causal factors.

I have a mate with a 14 foot Windsor Rapid , about 1400KG and it has 210Kg on the drawbar. Crazy to me, but then a lot of the weight is at the ends I guess.

Regards Philip A

[Rosscoe68]

I have a mate with a 14 foot Windsor Rapid , about 1400KG and it has 210Kg on the drawbar. Crazy to me, but then a lot of the weight is at the ends I guess.

Regards Philip A

yeah, this is what i am starting to think, the vans are badly designed with loads of weight behind the rear axle, so they compensate that by a high ball weight to try and make them stable. actually brings to mind a recent happening, well about 3 years back now, with a friend of mine, they had just bought a brand new cruiser and tandem axle van, $140k odd, and on the way home from the van supplier, flipped the whole rig. lost loads on insurance as they were underinsured. van supliers excuse ended up that because the thing didnt have anything in it, it was load biased toward the rear of the van. to me thats plain crazy having an empty van rearend heavy.

[d2dave]

and yet the D2 is handbooked at 3500kg tow weight and the tow bar max ball weight is 150kg as stated on the factory fitted landrover towbar. go figure ...

heh, although i just realised that is landrover and whoever said they knew what they were doing in the first place :)

Yes the LR does have a 3500kg tow weight but you have to have a tow bar to match. Your bar says 150 kg ball weight. Does this bar say 3500kg pull weight?

SWMBO's fairlane has a max tow weight of 2400 kg but the factory fitted tow bar is only rated to 1600. If I wish to tow 2400kg I have to get a tow bar to suit.

As for the post suggesting studies in Europe saying 7% ball weight I would not argue this as the 10% is only a guide. 10% plus or minus a bit works ok so minus a bit takes you close to 7%.

As for the suggestion that the 10% rule is because some of the old vans are too rear heavy, it does not matter how much weight is at the rear because if you have weight on the ball you have more at the front.

Dave.

[dullbird]

Yes the LR does have a 3500kg tow weight but you have to have a tow bar to match. Your bar says 150 kg ball weight. Does this bar say 3500kg pull weight?

SWMBO's fairlane has a max tow weight of 2400 kg but the factory fitted tow bar is only rated to 1600. If I wish to tow 2400kg I have to get a tow bar to suit.

As for the post suggesting studies in Europe saying 7% ball weight I would not argue this as the 10% is only a guide. 10% plus or minus a bit works ok so minus a bit takes you close to 7%.

As for the suggestion that the 10% rule is because some of the old vans are too rear heavy, it does not matter how much weight is at the rear because if you have weight on the ball you have more at the front.

Dave.

As far as I'm aware land rover dont make things that under rate the rating on the vehicle...

so they wont say your car can tow 3 ton and then only give you the factory option of a tow bar that can pull 2

At least that was what I was lead to believe.

[Rosscoe68]

yeah i wasnt going to go there, but i agree, i was under the impression you only need a upgraded aftermarket towbar if you wanted to fit weight dist bars, which LR recommends against.

[d2dave]

yeah i wasnt going to go there, but i agree, i was under the impression you only need a upgraded aftermarket towbar if you wanted to fit weight dist bars, which LR recommends against.

Are weight dist bars the same as what is often known as "level rides"?
I have a device bolted under the tow ball which has four holes in it. I then insert a spring steel rod about a metre long which is pulled up to the caravan draw bar. This transfers some of the ball weight to the front wheels of vehicle.
If this is weight dist bars the only reason I can think of that LR don't recommend them is they don't sell them.

I can see no other reason why. I have been using them for four years with no adverse effects to my Disco.

Dave.

[Rosscoe68]

yeah same thing. actually i should clarify what i said, LR don't recommend them if you have SLS air suspension.

[Redback]

can I ask dumb question.....I dont own a trailer yet! what is loading a trailer correctly?

is it just distributing it evenly across the whole frame?

have a certain weight on the ball and a certain weight over the axles?

is it just literally avoiding heavy things at one end regardless of which end?

sorry for all the questions to curious....as this is something we will need to learn and know

It means you have either too much forward or backwards of the axle/axles of the trailer.

You'll find camper trailers are pretty good as they are designed well and generally tow well, caravans on the other hand are crap to tow and generally need WDH and anti sway devices to be able to tow them well.

The main problem with vans is where all the load carrying space is and where most of the weight is distributed in the van when manufactured, as well as the piddley little wheels and crap suspension they have to carry that weight:twisted:

Baz.

[AKW]

I have a D1 4000kg tow rating with LRs 180 odd ball weight way less
than 10%.

I do a fair bit of towing one trailer i have been using lately
is evenly ballanced with a bit over 2t of wood loaded evenly
it will bounce on the ball it tows just fine at 100/105km
but the bounce is annoying so i load slightly heavy to the
frount not much just a bit..

Now dose any body know why LR do not recomend L/D hitches
with air susp.
If you think about how they work they have ride hight valves
to keep the ride level, simple....
Now if you use a LD hitch to lift the rear and move the weight some where else the susp will will think it is unloaded have less air pressure than required for that weight and WILL be unstable.

I hope this makes sense, i would love a D3 on air but would never use a weight distrabution hitch NEVER.
Anyone disagree as i have been tempted to send this to the 4wd mags
when the question comes up.

Andrew

93'tdi200disco
65'88"s2a

[d2dave]

Andrew,
I am not an expert on on air springs but I can't see why weight distribution can't be used. If you transfer some weight from the rear to the front I'm sure the air bags would adjust accordingly.

This is just a theory here, but I see LR say no more than 150 kg on the ball. If you had 2000 kg and therefore was wanting 200 kg on the ball, by using weight distribution hitch, are you not transferring some of the 200kg weight from the ball to the front wheels so effectively you wouldn't have 200kg on the ball?

SWMBO's 98 fairlane has rear self leveling suspension and the book just warns to have the ignition turned off when attaching trailers and when fitting weight dist. hitches.

Dave.

[Grumndriva]

From a legal perspective, the reduction in actual towball weight generated by a WDH can not be taken into account when determining whether weights are within limits.

Just for the record, the D2 tow ball weight is 250 kg, which easily copes with a 2.5 tonne van. The D1 is indeed limited by its low tow ball weight limit.

WDHs can be outstandingly successful in stabilising a combined rig, despite Land Rover stating that they should not be used on a D2. I can accept that that advice might be meant only to apply to SLS equipped vehicles, but I know of some with SLS who also use WDH successfully. My vehicle has coils and Poly Air springs, and doesn't need a WDH for load carrying, but it does improve handling and braking.

From my own experience, the need for the centre of gravity to be well forward of the wheels is self evident and well proven. Better minds than mine have determined that towball weights should be from 5 to 10 per cent of the towed weight in order to get the CG where it needs to be. My experience with a 2.5 tonne van supports that view.

[jmkoffice]

Here are the towing facts for Australian delivered D2's:

The manual clearly states - No equalising or other form of weight distribution tow bar should be used on the vehicle.

Maximum trailer weight is 3500 kg with ball weight 250 kg - this applies to a vehicle with coil springs with four passengers only. If fitted with air bags, passengers and some luggage can be accommodated.

When vehicle is loaded to GVW, trailer weight is limited to 2000 kg with ball weight limited to 150 kg.

In my case, the polyairs allow for some luggage and proper leveling of the vehicle with the 190 kg vertical load on the tow ball.

[AKW]

I still think if you lift weight off rear air bags they will drop
air pressure,even worse with full air susp as D3 as the frount will
add air as the weight is throwen foward and will be unstable
and dangerous.

Andrew

'93tdi200
'65 88"s2a

[d2dave]

I still think if you lift weight off rear air bags they will drop
air pressure,even worse with full air susp as D3 as the frount will
add air as the weight is thrown foward and will be unstable
and dangerous.

Andrew

'93tdi200
'65 88"s2a

I still can't see how it would matter if you use weight dist. hitch. Surely whether air or coils by shifting some weight to front of vehicle has to be better than all the weight on the rear. And as I said earlier the air bag would adjust accordingly.

Dave.

[Redback]

I still can't see how it would matter if you use weight dist. hitch. Surely whether air or coils by shifting some weight to front of vehicle has to be better than all the weight on the rear. And as I said earlier the air bag would adjust accordingly.

Dave.

Because the SLS/ACE model D2 and the airbag D3s suspension height is controlled by the ECU, once the ECU detects a difference in height it adjusts accordingly, this means the ECU and WDH will be continually adjusting.

Especially with the D3.

I can't see a problem with a coiled D3 OR D2 having a WDH.

This is my opinion on all this.

The tow vehicle is the key, if you set it up properly with the right suspension FOR TOWING and also if the van your towing has good suspension, tyres with the correct pressures and good load spread, you shouldn't need these tow aids.

Also a WDH will NOT stop swaying, these devices only make things level:D

If the tow vehicle and van have a crap setup the WDH will not stop the swaying.

[jmkoffice]

The tow vehicle is the key, if you set it up properly with the right suspension FOR TOWING and also if the van your towing has good suspension, tyres with the correct pressures and good load spread, you shouldn't need these tow aids.

Also a WDH will NOT stop swaying, these devices only make things level:D

Spot on Peter. You cannot beat a tandem axle caravan/poptop towed behind a properly equipped vehicle.

[MarknDeb]

When we towed our van on the D2a i didnt use the WDH, ah i did try it once and the car didnt feal rite, it fealt like i could have lost it so i didnt use it again and we towed nearly 35000ks with out it but now we have coils in the rear i use the WDH and the car feals the best it ever did when towing. I had it explained to me a while ago by someone at LR when there was a lot of heated dicussion between a few people (one caravan mag) and a couple of us readers RE the safety of using a WDH on a SLS LR, LR told me direct not to use it as the vehicle and the towbar had not been tested with a WDH and as the car had SLS the WDH was not needed, the caravan mag fix it guy was then telling us that if we didnt use the WDH and had an accident (that would definatly happen without a WDH) and our insurance company would not cover us, i also checked with the insurance company and they told me that if i used a WDH on a car that the manufacturer stated it was not to be used i would have difficulty in making a claim. On part of LRA that person no longer works for that caravan mag. We have firends that tow with the D3, 1 with air suspension and 1 with coils, the one with air tows a 2.7 cross country van without a WDH on the air, they are retired and just travell all the time (lucky sodes) the other with coils and they use a WDH and travels just as good as the air, the only change they made to the coil one was when they purchased the car LR had the HR tow bar fitted for them so they could use the WDH.

Now on ours LR told us that if we used the WDH with the SLS the WDH would lift the rear of the car (if set correctly) to its standard ride hight or higher than and would not charge the system with air thus could make the car unstable in certain circumstances.

Yes iam sure someone will find some fault with what i have posted and if you do take it up with LR NOT ME i went through enough **** over this in the original circumstance. :mad:

[AKW]

I aggree, i never said a WDH would stop swaying.
But with air bags if you lift weight from the rear,
move it to the frount via a WDH,
the rear bags will lower and the frount will raise in
pressure because the ECU will do what it needs to do
to keep it level.
The total weight is still there, it has to be unstable..

Overlander had a tow comp 4or5years ago said the d3
handled like a pos untill the WDH was removed then all was fine.

The orignal poster whs springs under his D2 anyway
so if he loads the van right there should be no problem.

leave the WDH to toyo drivers that can not load right.

Andrew

'93 200tdi disco
'65 88" s2a

[harlie]

LR’s stance on not using WDH with air sus has been explained here many times before.


The recommendations only came out after the D2 was released – note not an issue with the P38a… The problem occurs when the load bars are fitted to lift the rear, the ECU detects this and reduces air pressure to regain the set height. Nothing bad so far – there’s more to these systems than "sitting level" …


What can happen is the bars can be adjusted in a manner that lifts too much weight off the rear and the rear suspension pressures drop significantly putting far greater torsion through the towbar assembly than it can handle (and vehicle can become unstable with a soft air spring). This is not likely with coils as the user will notice the car sitting high in the rear and adjust before setting off – but with air the user has no idea how much force is being applied through the frame, the ECU continually adjusts to mask it. Note the factory tow bar assembly is the weak link - This is why the P38a didn’t have the warnings. There are several cases in AUS where the factory casting on the D3 (one I know of was coiled) has completely snapped off. Compare the difference HR tow kit and the factory D2 frame – it’s huge….


LR recommend not to use WDH – it’s bad… They are never going to admit that LR has fitted pathetic tow frames to their vehicles… VW, Merc and Toyota have no issues with WDH being used with their air suspension equipped vehicles because that don’t have some stupid system between the tow bar and vehicle chassis.



The tow vehicle is the key, if you set it up properly with the right suspension FOR TOWING and also if the van your towing has good suspension, tyres with the correct pressures and good load spread, you shouldn't need these tow aids.

Also a WDH will NOT stop swaying, these devices only make things level:D



Your right - a well set up rig sould never NEED a tow aid. I don’t agree at all with that second point. It’s not a just case of making it level – my air suspension does that. It transfers weight to the front axle of the car - giving back its designed spring/shock rates, it creates a torsion bond between the car and trailer chassis which dramatically changes the rig behaviour especially on poor surfaces.



There is a process to initially set up WDH with air equipped vehicles. I have used WDH with air suspension LRs for over 12 years now and won’t drag our 3.2t boat at highway speeds without it (notified and approved by my insurance co when LR kicked up originally). It’s true that I don’t NEED a WDH but the rig handles and rides significantly better with it- providing it is not over adjusted. I can add that WDH does not add as much improvement to an air sus vehicle as it does to a coil car but it still adds a hell of a lot. It is easy to see from the replys in this thread who has tried/tested a properly adjusted WDH and who hasn’t….


And for the record my trailer has load sharing sus, shock absorbers fitted to all four wheels, runs 60psi in tyres and a ball weight of 280kg. Boat trailers are fully adjustable and we’ve tested many different ball weights. A ball weight of 20kg was just dangerous – 3.2t seesaw just picks the rear of the car up and pushes it around like a rag doll - a seesaw that is not balanced behaves more predicably.

[harlie]

I aggree, i never said a WDH would stop swaying.
But with air bags if you lift weight from the rear,
move it to the frount via a WDH,
the rear bags will lower and the frount will raise in
pressure because the ECU will do what it needs to do
to keep it level.
The total weight is still there, it has to be unstable..



true - IF the bars are adjusted too high

[StephenF10]

Unless the vehicle manufacturer prohibits it, you would be a fool not to use a WDH when towing a caravan, especially on a D2 with it's stupidly short wheelbase and long rear overhang which increases the effect of any weight on the towball.

It doesn't matter if the car and van suspension is perfectly set up, dropping a van on the towball WILL increase weight on the rear axle and reduce it at the front where most of the braking and all of the steering is done. Forget Polyairs and the like; they may keep the vehicle level and create the illusion that all is well but they do nothing for the weight transfer.

The question is - how much weight can be taken off the front axle without it adversely affecting braking and steering? A heavy 4WD won't be affected as much as a passenger car, but every towing vehicle will be affected to some degree.

Use a WDH and the question doesn't arise. The ball weight is still there but the EFFECT of the weight is spread more evenly over three axles instead of one.

[AKW]

true - IF the bars are adjusted too high

NO just do not use WDH with air bags let them do the work
after you load the van/trailer right in the first place..

Andrew

[harlie]

NO just do not use WDH with air bags let them do the work
after you load the van/trailer right in the first place..

Andrew

As I said, it is easy to see who has tested correctly setup WDH and who hasn't. The air bags just make it sit level. still a huge weight reduction off the steering wheels


Unless the vehicle manufacturer prohibits it, you would be a fool not to use a WDH when towing a caravan, especially on a D2 with it's stupidly short wheelbase and long rear overhang which increases the effect of any weight on the towball.

It doesn't matter if the car and van suspension is perfectly set up, dropping a van on the towball WILL increase weight on the rear axle and reduce it at the front where most of the braking and all of the steering is done. Forget Polyairs and the like; they may keep the vehicle level and create the illusion that all is well but they do nothing for the weight transfer.

The question is - how much weight can be taken off the front axle without it adversely affecting braking and steering? A heavy 4WD won't be affected as much as a passenger car, but every towing vehicle will be affected to some degree.

Use a WDH and the question doesn't arise. The ball weight is still there but the EFFECT of the weight is spread more evenly over three axles instead of one.

Agree - 12 years with a rig that handles significantly better than without the WDH - I ain't going back - and I've had air suspension for all that time and wouldn't go back to coils... the vehicle will improve with a CORRECTLY setup system - some more than others.

[DeanoH]

Unless the vehicle manufacturer prohibits it, you would be a fool not to use a WDH when towing a caravan, ........
.................. Forget Polyairs and the like; they may keep the vehicle level and create the illusion that all is well but they do nothing for the weight transfer.


There is no questioning the effectiveness of a correctly adjusted WDH. Unfortunately they restrict turning circle and draw bar articulation making them unsuitable in some applications, particularly off road. With caravans off road means off the bitumen.

This is where Polyairs come into play as they restore ride height and rear spring travel. Steering and suspension articulation is also restored and the tendency to bottom out the rear suspension is lessened. Polyairs do not restrict turning circle or draw bar articulation.

It's pretty simple really, for heavy towing on the bitumen use a WDH, for off road use Polyairs

This is a horses for courses exercise, use which ever suits your type of travelling.

Deano

[StephenF10]

There is no questioning the effectiveness of a correctly adjusted WDH. Unfortunately they restrict turning circle and draw bar articulation making them unsuitable in some applications, particularly off road. With caravans off road means off the bitumen.

This is where Polyairs come into play as they restore ride height and rear spring travel. Steering and suspension articulation is also restored and the tendency to bottom out the rear suspension is lessened. Polyairs do not restrict turning circle or draw bar articulation.

It's pretty simple really, for heavy towing on the bitumen use a WDH, for off road use Polyairs

This is a horses for courses exercise, use which ever suits your type of travelling.

Deano

True. My comments were for on-road use, but off-road doesn't necessarily mean off-bitumen. It's the angle between the towing vehicle and the van that can cause problems with a WDH, not the road surface.

[MarknDeb]

If you are going to go into a situation where articulation (up and down) is needed and you leave a WDH system setup you need to have your head read, something will break, i have seen the end result from driving on a bush track with a WDH fitted, they ended up with no tow bar left to tow and someone else had to tow there van for them

[Rosscoe68]

was watching a big dual axle van and landcruiser with wdh go through town center the other day, we have a raised intersection for speed and pedestrian safety i guess, and as the van went up and then back down you could see and hear the stress on everything and it was a cringe moment for me watching, being mechanically trained and the son of an engineer. i cant understand why a dual axle would ever need a wdh. just doesnt add for me.

[DeanoH]

............................. i cant understand why a dual axle would ever need a wdh. just doesnt add for me.

Think about a large van, perhaps poorly loaded,and the varying distribution of weight when its actually moving.

Deano

[ozscott]

I have towed a lot with my 02 D2 coiler...mainly a 2 tonn dual axle boat trailer/boat - Seafarer Vagabond. It tows very well (with quite a lot of ball weight) including loaded up for interstate runs/camping with the boat. It does drop the back of the truck though with standard springs by 3.5cm (and more if the truck is loaded). So today I have fitted coil rite by Firestone and I am confident that it will tow even better with them. I will report back on it though.

In the meantime the air bags with 8psi in them make the rider better. The truck has 31 inch LT's, Raw Dampener for the steering and Dobinson GT shocks all round (all that gear is pretty new) and the coil rites make it even better...funnily enough it rides now VERY much like my brother in laws 95 P38A Rangie with air suspension (the bags reduce pitching nicely and give it a very sure footed feel).

Cheers

[Banjo_pluker]

I have towed a lot with my 02 D2 coiler...mainly a 2 tonn dual axle boat trailer/boat - Seafarer Vagabond. It tows very well (with quite a lot of ball weight) including loaded up for interstate runs/camping with the boat. It does drop the back of the truck though with standard springs by 3.5cm (and more if the truck is loaded). So today I have fitted coil rite by Firestone and I am confident that it will tow even better with them. I will report back on it though.

In the meantime the air bags with 8psi in them make the rider better. The truck has 31 inch LT's, Raw Dampener for the steering and Dobinson GT shocks all round (all that gear is pretty new) and the coil rites make it even better...funnily enough it rides now VERY much like my brother in laws 95 P38A Rangie with air suspension (the bags reduce pitching nicely and give it a very sure footed feel).

Cheers


I am keen to hear how you go

In reading all the posts here All I will say is that my understanding is that airbags like polyairs are to absorb up and down forces of the weight

This is the most debated subject within the caravan industry- I have never seen it end with one side or the other saying you were right- This is one of the most nicest debates, they usually end with arguments not debates:D

[Rosscoe68]

there seems to be a bit of a conflict on ppls feelings here. i reply mostly in relation to SLS equipped as thats what my experience is with.
i think both sides will agree that getting the weight behind the rear axle down and getting it further forward on the tow vehicle is a good thing. however my opinion and some others is that should be done by correctly balancing the caravan or trailer rather than fitting devices to try and coverup/manipulate an existing problem with TOO MUCH downweight on the towbar.
i have towed in many various guises and it astounds me that anyone can think a loaded badly van tows better with a WDH than a correctly loaded van without WDH.


i did however see recently an instance where i believe the WDH was particularly well used. a fwd camry towing a well loaded caravan but due to fwd, the car tended to spin tyres in wet. WDH reduced front tyre spin, fair call. or buy a rwd or 4wd car even better call.

[Grumndriva]

[QUOTE=Rosscoe68;1240274]i have towed in many various guises and it astounds me that anyone can think a loaded badly van tows better with a WDH than a correctly loaded van without WDH.

Rosscoe, with respect, I don't think that anyone is saying that. What those who actually have experience towing caravans with and without WDH (and Harlie is right: it is obvious to real caravaners who does and does not have that experience) are saying is that WDH will improve handling and braking, and therefore safety, for the tug and other traffic, particularly with larger vans. From my personal experience with a range of vans up to 21 ft behind my D2, on and off the bitumen, that is a no-brainer. It should go without saying that proper loading of the van is critical regardless of whether or not a WDH is used. Despite the claim that it is an urban myth, that also applies to the international "rule of thumb" that the weight on the tow ball should be around 7 to 12 per cent of the total mass of the van (for simplicity let's call it the 10% rule). Good vans are designed to provide this sort of weight distribution with proper loading, i.e. with tanks full and most of the remaining movable mass close to the axles.

That much is very easy to prove, either with an experimental rig as with the Bath University studies, or in practice with a real van. Just take a spare pair of undies if you try the no weight on the towball idea and go above 30 to 40 kph with a typical van.

It is also unwise to generalise statements about the design of caravans, which range from (for example) 13 feet long with a single axle to 30 feet long with three axles, which may be low mounted for bitumen work, or high mounted for dirt road or off road use, which may be on sophisticated independent suspension or on simple leaf springs with beam axles. Above all, they may be built by a properly set up, experienced and competent builder, or by an under capitalsed, inexperienced "johnny come lately". To suggest that Bushtracker, Kedron, Phoenix and similar vans are made just to look good and not to tow well does nothing for the argument because it is so obviously wrong. As with vehicles, there are some vans which are less than ideally designed and some which are not properly loaded.

It is not necessarily correct to extrapolate (too far) experience towing cars or boats to towing vans. There are substantial differences caused by the keel area and weight distribution, which may significantly affect the dynamics of towing.

It has been suggested that Land Rover's D2 tow rating of 3,500 kg with 250 kg on the ball demonstrates that Land Rover does not believe in the "10%" on the tow ball rule, or has somehow screwed up. That isn't a valid argument. It just means that Land Rover engineers have certified the chassis, towbar, suspension and brakes to tow a horizontal weight (e.g. a 4 wheel trailer or another vehicle on its own wheels) of up to 3,500 kg, or to carry a vertical (static) weight of up to 250 kg on the tow ball. The 250 kg vertical limit in practice probably limits safe van weight to somewhere between 2.5 and 3 tonnes.

This is a great forum, and everyone should feel free to express a view, but the problem is that there are probably newcomers to caravaning on here who are looking for safe and practical advice. Sadly, some of the views on this and similar threads here and on other forums are potentially dangerous. Anyone is entitled to disagree with the international "10%" rule or the supposed benefits of WDH, but for the sake of the newcomers to caravaning in particular, but also to those of us with such experience, please provide some sort of supporting evidence or a rational argument to support your counter view. None of us knows so much that we can't learn more.

[Tombie]

<snip> especially on a D2 with it's stupidly short wheelbase and long rear overhang which increases the effect of any weight on the towball.</snip>

Whilst compared to others the 100" (2540mm) wheelbase is short I would not say it suffers with long rear overhang.
I measured a GU patrol overhang and a cruisers vs the Disco 2 and the D2 has the shortest overhang of the 3 (axle to towball) in fact the Defender even comes close to the same dimensions...

Also the Rovers have a much nicer F-R balance than the other brands. I find they tow very nicely... Even with ridiculous things on the back... As long as its balanced ok...

Heres a pic (I'm still waiting for my Firestones to arrive)
http://gallery.mac.com/rovertech/100317/IMG_1099/web.jpg'ver=12724607370001

2300kgs - Tows nice and smooth with only a little effect from road surface...

[ozscott]

Very nice Cat mate....and nice truck too. She looks pretty high - are they 18s with good sized tyres??? Yours looks a fair bit like mine (perhaps a little more pitched) with my boat on. I will post up some pics when I pick up my old girl from getting the outboard serviced.

Cheers


PS. You will love the Firestones...I am really impressed - best thing I have done to the rig.

PPS. Good to see you got the best colour in LR...

PPPS..Looks like you have the best engine colour choice too...is that a set of Yammy V4's on the the loud end...?

[Tombie]

Very nice Cat mate....and nice truck too. She looks pretty high - are they 18s with good sized tyres??? Yours looks a fair bit like mine (perhaps a little more pitched) with my boat on. I will post up some pics when I pick up my old girl from getting the outboard serviced.

Cheers


PS. You will love the Firestones...I am really impressed - best thing I have done to the rig.

PPS. Good to see you got the best colour in LR...

PPPS..Looks like you have the best engine colour choice too...is that a set of Yammy V4's on the the loud end...?

Thanks for the kind words Scott...

Yes, the D2 is lifted 4" coils, 33's on the 18's (Reminds me I must do a 'members rides' write-up).

Dropped about 1" in the bum once loaded (gear/food) in disco and the boat hitched up.

I've heard good results from the firestones, So i've ordered 2 sets - a normal set and a set of bags to suit my +4" lift... Will take pics when they get here!

I'm more than happy to tow like this... The D3 we towed it up with was even better......

Niagara Grey is the Disco, Had a Bonatti Deefer too :cool:

And yes, twin 115 V4 Yammies :firedevil:

[Tombie]

P.S> Nice boat Scott :D

[Redback]

The above is an urban myth.

why anyone believes its ok to place THAT much weight on a tow hitch is beyond me,,


The NSW RTA have a information pamphlet on towing trailers, and in that it even states as a general rule, towball load should be 5-10% total trailer mass.

Which is all a little ridiculous if you have a 3t trailer, I sure wouldn't be wanting up to a 300kg load on the ball. I think 5% is about all it ever should be.

Slightly off topic but still related - at times I tow a rowing boat trailer - 12.5m trailer, 13.5m with rear overhang when loaded, between 2-3t depending on load. Such a trailer is custom made, if it were to be made strictly according to ADR's, the axles have to be so far back that the ball weight was going to be about 450kg unless huge dead weights were put into the rear of the trailer. Needless to say rowing boat trailers are never 'quite' within allowed dimensions... btw I tow that with a S1 Discovery, no load distribution hitch - handles surprisingly well, overall towball load is usually around 150kg. Use polyair bags to maintain levelness.

Seano

I agree with the above.

Set the tow vehicle and van up properly and you'll have no issues.

Baz.

[Redback]

Thanks for the kind words Scott...

Yes, the D2 is lifted 4" coils, 33's on the 18's (Reminds me I must do a 'members rides' write-up).

Dropped about 1" in the bum once loaded (gear/food) in disco and the boat hitched up.

I've heard good results from the firestones, So i've ordered 2 sets - a normal set and a set of bags to suit my +4" lift... Will take pics when they get here!

I'm more than happy to tow like this... The D3 we towed it up with was even better......

Niagara Grey is the Disco, Had a Bonatti Deefer too :cool:

And yes, twin 115 V4 Yammies :firedevil:

You don't happen to have the part No for those +4" bags do you:D

[ozscott]

Cheers mate! I have a 93 114 V4 Yam on mine and it just keeps going and going and going....

My Disco is Bonati. The D3 would tow better - more weight and better wheelbase I guess, but the D2 does a good job.

I will post back some pics of the whole thing set up with the bags.

Cheers

[Crackerjack]

I agree with Tony, I used to tow a 1.8T Jayco 17' poptop with no need to ever consider a WDH. I added bags to keep the car level and ensured the tow-ball weight was as low as possible. You are allowed 250kg, I kept mine to around 190/200kg by balancing the load in the van, admittedly the van was tandem axle with a ball weight of 175kg empty.


Ball weight should be 10% of total weight of van so if van is 1.8 ton ball weight should be 180 KG.

Dave.


The above is an urban myth.

why anyone believes its ok to place THAT much weight on a tow hitch is beyond me,,


The NSW RTA have a information pamphlet on towing trailers, and in that it even states as a general rule, towball load should be 5-10% total trailer mass.

Which is all a little ridiculous if you have a 3t trailer, I sure wouldn't be wanting up to a 300kg load on the ball. I think 5% is about all it ever should be.

Slightly off topic but still related - at times I tow a rowing boat trailer - 12.5m trailer, 13.5m with rear overhang when loaded, between 2-3t depending on load. Such a trailer is custom made, if it were to be made strictly according to ADR's, the axles have to be so far back that the ball weight was going to be about 450kg unless huge dead weights were put into the rear of the trailer. Needless to say rowing boat trailers are never 'quite' within allowed dimensions... btw I tow that with a S1 Discovery, no load distribution hitch - handles surprisingly well, overall towball load is usually around 150kg. Use polyair bags to maintain levelness.

Seano

I have been reading the post with great interest as I posted on another forum about the maximum weight on a Discovery 1 towball, I cannot find any information whatsoever that it should be more than 150kg in relation to Landrover technical and consumer information
So with many vans in Australia weighing in excess of 1500kg, what is the answer?

[ozscott]

Mate - given the 5-10% that the RTA appear to be on about you could end up with a 3,000kg tow capacity at 5% towball weight (I have a 95 D1 with a 4000kg tow capacity....in theory...which cannot obviously be achieved even at 5% tow capacity if my 95 is 150kg (I have not checked - when I towed my boat which would have had that or a bit more I didnt worry - HR receiver and hitch I had not a ounce of worry about capacity given the live axle and massive chassis set up).

HOWEVER, for 5% I personally would be getting a bit concerned. I think at 5% I would automatically want to check old suspension bushes, make sure the shocks are stiff and good, make sure that the trailer is well sorted, make sure I had either springs that didnt sag or air bags and go to the expense of WDH and anti-sway bars. You could do it on the sly and go all the above save for the last 2 and then go and see how it behaves but to my mind that would be insane with a 1.8tonn or more load and 5%....cause it can go from sweet to swinging/flip too quickly to do much about it - have seen it and it isnt nice.

Cheers

[Grumndriva]

The only hard and fast rule I know of is that you can't lawfully exceed either of the vehicle and tow bar manufacturers' published limits. The maximum "horizontal" limit is based on the ATM stated on the caravan's compliance plate (which also cannot be exceeded) not on the actual weight). The maximum "vertical" limit is based on the actual download exerted by the A frame without a WDH being used.

However, based on the best available advice from engineers and road transport agencies, as well as my own and others' personal experience, the maximum caravan weight you should be towing with a Disco 1 is that which will still keep around 7% minimum on the tow ball, or around 2100 to 2150 kg with 150 kg on the tow ball. Based on the best available advice, that should give you adequate stability provided that the van is properly loaded to give you that 150 kg on the tow ball and avoiding a major concentration of weight at either end, but particularly at the rear.

If you want to tow something heavier, you should consider a tow vehicle with a higher tow rating. The Disco 2 is rated to 3500 kg horizontal and 250kg on the tow ball. Using the minimum recommended towball weight of 7%, a 3,500 kg van is possible, and that covers most vans available in Australia. I tow a 2,700 kg dirt road van, which tows well behind my D2, but I am not sure that I would want to go an extra 800 kg.

Bear in mind that 7% is the minimum recommended weight on the tow bar for safety.

Many of us who have tried towing with and without a WDH believe that use of a WDH will improve that level of safety further, by restoring the proper weight distribution on the tow vehicle and thereby enhancing braking and handling. But I can't prove that.

There are some who don't believe that tow ball weights need to be as high as 7%. In a recent thread on a caravaning forum, concerning the number and causes of caravan accidents due to dynamic instability, it was stated that in most cases, the driver claimed that the rig had always felt very stable until the accident. Dynamic instability is always lurking, and strikes very, very quickly. I can't argue that 7% is the absolute minimum, but I can urge those towing carvans to take seriously the advice of those who should know, particularly the road transport agencies, in order to maximise their chances of safely completing their travels