Fighting Females.

[123rover50]

News today. Sheilas on the battle front Come on . Leave it to the blokes. They need support behind without distraction.

[Chucaro]

Wow :eek: women all around the world have fought beside their men throughout the ages. And ably so. Are men really that easily distracted? ;) :D:D

Yes, they will be fighting for the females and forget why they are there :D

[THE BOOGER]

When i was in the army we had to learn about the geneva convention we were told it was against the convention for women and children to be in front line positions has that changed:confused:

[korg20000bc]

Doesn't the Geneva convention say you cannot use shot guns against human targets?

Who sticks to that?

FMJ only!

[Sprint]

what ****s me to tears is how women claim discrimination if they arent allowed to go to the front lines, but the moment one becomes a prisoner of war, the powers that be will move heaven and earth to get her back..... lets skip the bonus points available for having a woman prisoner as a propganda tool, and the "special" treatment she'll be getting whilst a prisoner

[DeanoH]

Cutting to the chase.

As I see it there are two arguments against women in the front line.

1/. Duty of care. Women soldiers captured will be raped. Not generally an issue for male front line soldiers.

2/. Male front line soldiers may go into 'protection mode' re female front line soldiers degrading decision making ability. A cultural thing not easily negated.

Solve these and it shouldn't be an issue.

Deano

[weeds]

good luck to them..........

if they want to go onto a two way range then let them fill their boots, i was more than happy sticking to the one way ranges

don't get me started on a female that took the defence department to court about a job/trade that was male only, she won the battle to only change her mind six months into training wanting to pull the pin..........the army stuck to their guns and denied her discharge, she had to complete her training and ROSO

[THE BOOGER]

Doesn't the Geneva convention say you cannot use shot guns against human targets? the convention says lots of things about how war should be fought but dont we scream blue murder if someone else dosnt obey the rules:eek: I think the convention needs to be be updated it was writen before WW2 but at the moment we are still signatories to it.

[clean32]

the convention says lots of things about how war should be fought but dont we scream blue murder if someone else dosnt obey the rules:eek: I think the convention needs to be be updated it was writen before WW2 but at the moment we are still signatories to it.

i think the convention is only enacted when both parties are signatories. Germany was never a signatory in WW2 for example neither was Japan N Korea or North Vietnam, Argentina was, but then they shot there own troops and 1/2 there officers got lost and could not locate there way back to there boys when it all whet noisy.

[THE BOOGER]

Didnt we (the Allies) hang the Germans and Japanese for breaking the rules even though they were not signatories:o

[dullbird]

what ****s me to tears is how women claim discrimination if they arent allowed to go to the front lines,
but the moment one becomes a prisoner of war, the powers that be will move heaven and earth to get her back..... lets skip the bonus points available for having a woman prisoner as a propganda tool, and the "special" treatment she'll be getting whilst a prisoner
i think Australia would do there best to get any prisoner of war back not just because they were women......think thats a tad far fetched I reckon.

[Sprint]

i think Australia would do there best to get any prisoner of war back not just because they were women......think thats a tad far fetched I reckon.

take a look at the big song and dance that was put on about that female soldier who was captured in iraq..... news coverage galore and parades when the yanks got her home

[dullbird]

take a look at the big song and dance that was put on about that female soldier who was captured in iraq.....
news coverage galore and parades when the yanks got her home

exactly;)...they love hero stories, and what better one to have than a strapping Mar EEN saving a damsel in distress
but as you have pointed out its in America

you can hardly generalise that Other country's would behave the same way.

Still everyone loves a story hey sprint:D including your self

[CraigE]

I personally think if they want to do so let them. But and its a big but they need to be treated as any other armed forces person in the same circumstance and need to be able to do the job to the requirements, not special rules. It seems to work in Israel.
Can not say it is something I would want to do, War is just so wrong in many ways and interpretations. I do however highly respect those who do put their lives on the line.
Maybe we should discharge all the males that are in the forces and do not want and some even would refuse to go to war. Last survey I believe was around 40% of the enlisted armed forces across the board. They are only in the forces for advanced and technical training that will leave them desirable for non military positions in the future.

[THE BOOGER]

I was at RMC (staff) when the mack,s were issued we had a girl in RMC TPT PL who wanted to drive them at first she was told no then told if she could pass trhe same test a the guys she could, had to lift full set of chains and fit them to the truck, she got her lic.

[Chops]

Wow :eek: women all around the world have fought beside their men throughout the ages. And ably so. Are men really that easily distracted? ;) :D:D


Ummm,,, Yes,,, Its a guy thing,,, and Yes,,we're shallow,,,:D ;)

:eek2: :whistling:

[Scallops]

The actual thing that is being looked at is this - that instead of having a blanket statement, "No women serving on the front line", the minister is suggesting a case by case assessment.

New Zealand, Canada, Israel - these are a few countries that come to mind that have had women serving on the front line, so it's not like this is some suggestion that has never been done before.

I think many blokes need to adjust their 19th century ideas about women! I've seen many women on the Ipswich train, that I reckon would make Attila the Hun turn and run! :D

It's not going to work in all cases - it will in others - this is what Combet is suggesting. That's a good idea. ;)

[Jamo]

I think the issue is more the men, rather than physical abilites of females. Some males cannot maintain focus around women; the sort of focus you need at the sharp end.

The Israelis actually had to scale back female deployment because of it. Anyone who's worked in recruit training will know what I mean.

Women actually make more ruthless and efficient killers than men.

[willem]

I think the issue is more the men, rather than physical abilites of females. Some males cannot maintain focus around women; the sort of focus you need at the sharp end.

The Israelis actually had to scale back female deployment because of it. Anyone who's worked in recruit training will know what I mean.

Women actually make more ruthless and efficient killers than men.

If you've ever seen women fight you'd have to agree with that. There's absolutely no holds barred and anything at all within reach is a legitimate weapon! Maybe that's why the guys don't want them on the front line?

I've also noticed it with swearing. When working on construction I noticed that even guys who would swear with every second word would stop when a woman came on site. But when women start to swear and another woman comes near, they don't stop, they just keep right on with the foul language. Even the presence of kids around made little difference.

Willem

[Scallops]

I think the issue is more the men, rather than physical abilites of females. Some males cannot maintain focus around women; the sort of focus you need at the sharp end.

The Israelis actually had to scale back female deployment because of it. Anyone who's worked in recruit training will know what I mean......



Which is why I suggest these men need to examine their own attitudes towards women.

[VladTepes]

Israel

Someone else also mentioned Canada and NZ (though I'm not sure to what extent it is the case in those countries)

even the Taliban fer chrissakes.


If Women want to do it AND HAVE THE REQUISITE ABILITY then let 'em at it, I say.

[Zebedee]

Wimin should not be allowed on the front line.


We need them for breeding ;).

[ramblingboy42]

Is there one domain left in this world for a man that women dont want to be involved in?
Ever hear of feminine essence? For the sake of the balance of mankind women ; get back to being women and let your men love you as such instead of challenging them for the rights to everything they do. No wonder divorce rates are so high. The differences between the sexes is what has made it so stimulating in relationships for so long. Ladies are you prepared to wipe your bum with a stick like men do on the front line. Where do you go for a pee? Sometimes you dont get a chance to wash anything for weeks and I'm not talking about clothing here. Will the defence forces have to supply special toiletry packs instead of the standard 6 sheets supplied in ration packs? How long will a woman wear her bra and undies in a combat zone? Men dont change their socks and undies for indeterminate lengths of time in the field.....when youre serious in combat you dont have room for anything besides food ammunition and the most basic clothing/bedding you can carry. I just dont reckon its the right place for women to be.

[dullbird]

Is there one domain left in this world for a man that women dont want to be involved in?
Ever hear of feminine essence?
For the sake of the balance of mankind women ; get back to being women and let your men love you as such instead of challenging them for the rights to everything they donothing like trying to suppress the opposite sex.
No wonder divorce rates are so high. The differences between the sexes is what has made it so stimulating in relationships for so long. Ladies are you prepared to wipe your bum with a stick like men do on the front line.
Where do you go for a pee? Same place most men do when out camping;)
Sometimes you dont get a chance to wash anything for weeks and I'm not talking about clothing here.
Will the defence forces have to supply special toiletry packs instead of the standard 6 sheets suppliedNo need when you have the contraceptive injection:p
in ration packs?
How long will a woman wear her bra and undies in a combat zone? Men dont change their socks and undies for indeterminate lengths of time in the fieldI'm guessing any women in the same situation would do the same thing I know I would.....
when youre serious in combat you dont have room for anything besides food ammunition and the most basic clothing/bedding you can carry.
I just dont reckon its the right place for women to be.
And I'm guessing there are many women that would disagree with that

[zulu Delta 534]

Unfortunately this argument has become a purely hypothetical one that has slipped into one of those 'sexual equality' arguments that surface so often with boring regularity. A bit like Union negotiation guidelines... Ask for a ridiculous target then bargain towards a compromise. The result then is a positive and pleasing result for both sides.
Granted there are women who feel that they should have the right to do whatever they feel like, when they feel like it and how they feel like it, and in my opinion, if they feel like that, then let them go ahead.....but then again there are still women out there who have more balanced minds and dont mind being feminine! (Thankfully!)
I know which one I hold in the higher esteem.
Regards
Glen

[dullbird]

who made the ammunition and weapons...now that's very feminine isn't it :lol2:

[Shonky]

There are plenty of women out there who are bigger, scarier and tougher than a lot of blokes. :eek:

Its not for every gal. Mrs Shonky is 5'1" and likes TV, cute small animals, cafe lunches and shoes taller than she is. She doesn't mind Land Rovers, and her only requirement for camping is a toilet. Would she suit the Army? HECK NO! :lol2:

Sitting a few desks away from me is David. David is 26, goes to the gym regularly, eats well and is a fit strong young lad. He also manicures his nails, lives in Surry Hills with his boyfriend and wears knitted vests to work. He can't stand dirt and only eats organic. Would he suit the Army? HECK NO! :Rolling:


Make the rules the same, ensure that everyone (male and female) are well breifed on the job at hand, and let em' at it.

The notion of girly girls and manly men is long gone. Women run companies, play politics, drink beer and win sports. Some of them even involve themselves in such roughian activities as driving Land Rovers!

Theres plenty of pansy arsed guys out there who couldn't hack a walk in the rain.

[dullbird]

LMFAO....very well put shonky.

I say as long as everyone that goes in for a job knows what they could be in for including stuff in the nastier sense, and they are still prepared to go forward and fight for there country. I feel you should be applauding them not bagging them out just coz it hurts your man ego

[stevo68]

Is there one domain left in this world for a man that women dont want to be involved in?
Ever hear of feminine essence? For the sake of the balance of mankind women ; get back to being women and let your men love you as such instead of challenging them for the rights to everything they do. No wonder divorce rates are so high. The differences between the sexes is what has made it so stimulating in relationships for so long. Ladies are you prepared to wipe your bum with a stick like men do on the front line. Where do you go for a pee? Sometimes you dont get a chance to wash anything for weeks and I'm not talking about clothing here. Will the defence forces have to supply special toiletry packs instead of the standard 6 sheets supplied in ration packs? How long will a woman wear her bra and undies in a combat zone? Men dont change their socks and undies for indeterminate lengths of time in the field.....when youre serious in combat you dont have room for anything besides food ammunition and the most basic clothing/bedding you can carry. I just dont reckon its the right place for women to be. Gotta say....I'm with you mate....men are men...women are women. There's a reason God gave us certain and different attributes. Chauvinistic maybe to some.....at home....its the way it should be :D i.e we have the man and woman role in place.....not trying to verge into each other's territories,

Regards

Stevo

[DeanoH]

A mate once said to me..................."If women wern't so good for,....... well one thing, they'd be knee deep at the tip".
This was shortly before his divorce.
What he was actually alluding to was the eternal male frustration in trying to understand the female mind.

Blokes, as a rule are generally comfortable with just being blokes, but for some unfathomable, to blokes anyway, reason many sheilas aren't comfortable with being shielas. I dunno if it's some sort of deep seated inferiority complex or just disatisfaction with themselves in general or what!

It's a fact of life that men and women are different and that's the way it is. This doesn't mean that men are better than women or vice versa, just different. 'Viva la diference' as the French would say. Blokes are pretty happy doing bloke things but for some reason shielas see this as a challenge or a put down and strive to prove something by competing, as if this is some sort of achievement. It's not it's just silly and makes them look insecure.

The sooner shielas realize that they are OK in their own right and don't have anything to prove the better it will be for everyone.

I was bought up to respect shielas, to treat them as ladies and to be protective of them in general. Give up my seat, open doors that sort of thing, not to give them a rifle and put them in the front line.

Blokes have logic, shielas have feminine intuition and never the twain shall meet. Imagine a bloke trying to sort out how a shielas going to think/react in a critical situation or vice versa. Doesn't bear thinking about.

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus (or is it the other way round) and thats the way it is.

Deano

[DeanoH]

Hey Deano...in my job I spend half my life holding doors open for men and women alike.

Sometimes I do it on my days off. Really throws a bloke.....just ask Uncle Ho ;):D:D:D

As my mum used to say.............."good manners cost nothing".
And if you can get a laugh out of it even better.

Deano

[Sprint]

whilst we're on the topic of sexual equality, i think i might try joining one of those "Female only" gyms..... whaddya reckon my chances are?

[Scallops]

whilst we're on the topic of sexual equality, i think i might try joining one of those "Female only" gyms..... whaddya reckon my chances are?

Dunno Sprint - how do you look in a frock?

[antvc]

Quote from "the Australian "newspaper
"WOMEN should be able to serve in all frontline combat units........under a controversial plan that could avert a looming recruitment crisis
The Rudd government wants to lift the proportion of women serving in the defence force from the current level of 13 per cent, as demographic pressures bear down on defence force recruitment over the next decade"

The problem is that the military here is a volunteer force, so even if all the positions are open to women it doesn't mean that the numbers will increase in the military.
the military has been having problems for years trying to get enough people, especially in the trades and other jobs other than rifleman and gun number

[Scallops]

or a leotard :D:D:D

You sheilas don't wear frocks when you exercise? And here I was thinking I had you lot sused. :p

[dullbird]

I think its even funnier when blokes think they know how Sheilas think and feel :lol2: 99.9% of the time your wrong :lol2:

why is it if a women wants to strive to do something well in a mans world we are insecure and competitive........ :no2: :lol2: this is part of the problem I think most guys just don't understand or perhaps incapable of understanding.

This was probably the same trail of thought that didn't allow women to vote once either.....things change, people evolve women enjoy more things (now there actually allowed too) its called the future think you just kind of need to except its going to happen and move on with life.

I have never done girly things even as a child, I played sports that were predominantly played by guys, I hung around with guys.....WHY? becasue I enjoyed the sports and I thoroughly enjoyed the company and humour of guys..more than girls

does that make me insecure? I don't think so just makes me what I am a person that just doesn't happen to like what men THINK I SHOULD LIKE ;)

[RobHay]

Wow :eek: women all around the world have fought beside their men throughout the ages. And ably so. Are men really that easily distracted? ;) :D:D


Uhmmmm.....eerrrrrrr......uhmmmmmmm ..........YES!

[F4Phantom]

No way, it would be bad for morale in so many ways. Women cannot compete physcially with men in the tiny tiny percentage of combat roles where they cannot currently serve. Men and women are different, physically and mentally. Having women fight along side men is a bad idea and it has NOTHING to do with equality. They are MORALE KILLERS.

[peewee]

i think that the jobs in the military that are open to women and those that are closed to them is right as it is. if a women wants to serve her country there are plenty of opportunities to do it without compromising the fighting ability of the countrys armed forces.
how many people posting comments on this subject have had any military service ?

[Jamo]

Which is why I suggest these men need to examine their own attitudes towards women.

The problem usually being, my dear Scallops, is that these few men (and it only takes a few) usually won't accept that they have a problem.

'Tis an unfortunate fact of life that God gave men two heads, but only enough blood to fill one at a time!

If the system were prepared to remove those individuals that lack professional judgement, then it will work very well. But I fear that it won't remove them as retention is a big issue. MAybe I'm wrong, though, There are some very good commanders out there these days.

Even so, there should be no problems with afv crews etc (particularly as armour tend to be far more mature than other arms)

[BBC]

i think that the jobs in the military that are open to women and those that are closed to them is right as it is. if a women wants to serve her country there are plenty of opportunities to do it without compromising the fighting ability of the countrys armed forces.
how many people posting comments on this subject have had any military service ?

Only did 25yrs ARA service between SPR to MAJ...probably not really long enough to be able to form a credible view on this topic.....

Females in the front line? In the type of asymmetric wars we have been enaged in...please point me in the direction of the 'front line'.

I am welcoming of females...in fact...anyone that can be professional and do the job. The problems that are all being pointed out will disappear if people have the right attitude. If a person is fit and capable of doing the job, why discriminate based on gender?

[peewee]

Only did 25yrs ARA service between SPR to MAJ...probably not really long enough to be able to form a credible view on this topic.....

Females in the front line? In the type of asymmetric wars we have been enaged in...please point me in the direction of the 'front line'.

I am welcoming of females...in fact...anyone that can be professional and do the job. The problems that are all being pointed out will disappear if people have the right attitude. If a person is fit and capable of doing the job, why discriminate based on gender?

yes asymmetric wars have blurred even elimininated the front line so we could say that all serving women are on the front line, so why extend there role? do we want to introduce anything into armoured and infantry regiments that could affect there efectiveness ?

it is good to get some input from someone with a military background on this subject.
( me 24 years british army currently enlisting into adf)

[GS-ADI]

I have not read down so I don’t know what else has been said on the topic,
But,. I have spoken to the top brass, and some WOs on the topic, and media,. Because we have some exceptional females, that in many ways are fitter, better at their jobs, better shots, and a Dam sight better looking then any grunts I know.. So I have often asked why are they not on point.. I get the same answer from everyone, the Australian public is not ready to have a daughter come home in a body bag,.. Maybe that will change in time,..
The point is a grey now people dont know where the front or the back is.. But the sentiment is very clear...

[BBC]

yes asymmetric wars have blurred even elimininated the front line so we could say that all serving women are on the front line, so why extend there role? do we want to introduce anything into armoured and infantry regiments that could affect there efectiveness ?

it is good to get some input from someone with a military background on this subject.
( me 24 years british army currently enlisting into adf)

Or.....make them more effective?

[BBC]

The problem usually being, my dear Scallops, is that these few men (and it only takes a few) usually won't accept that they have a problem.

'Tis an unfortunate fact of life that God gave men two heads, but only enough blood to fill one at a time!

If the system were prepared to remove those individuals that lack professional judgement, then it will work very well. But I fear that it won't remove them as retention is a big issue. MAybe I'm wrong, though, There are some very good commanders out there these days.

Even so, there should be no problems with afv crews etc (particularly as armour tend to be far more mature than other arms)

Jamo, retention IS at the heart of this issue, hence why they are opening the doors to a larger recruitment possibility. The ADF does not tend to be the first career choice amongst many of today's 'yoof'.

Been recently involved in an academic study with a Professor from Victoria Uni who is being partially funded by the ADF to look at the operational experiences of ADF individuals. An arising part of the study is looking at the base from which ADF members have been drawn from.

It is becoming apparent to the Professor that there is a significant part of the largely White Anglo Saxon base that comprises the ADF is drawn from the bush....city people have more employment options?

I come from a small NSW bush town of less than 3,000 people. In the three years that I spent at Tarin Kowt, Uruzgan Province, Afghanistan between Jan 2006-Nov 2008 I met 5 lads from my hometown serving there....Oh...and I forgot.....the Australian Ambassador to Afghanistan was also a class below me at school. Indicative of how narrow the ADF recruitment base is?

Mind you, the demographic is changing markedly, as per PeeWee here, the number of Brits discharging the UK military to migrate and serve in the ADF (and very welcome they are!) is becoming significant.

If retention and recruitment is such an issue, and selection and management can be properly effected, why be so limiting? Wake up Australia, and open your mind.

[Scallops]

The problem usually being, my dear Scallops, is that these few men (and it only takes a few) usually won't accept that they have a problem.

'Tis an unfortunate fact of life that God gave men two heads, but only enough blood to fill one at a time!

If the system were prepared to remove those individuals that lack professional judgement, then it will work very well. But I fear that it won't remove them as retention is a big issue. MAybe I'm wrong, though, There are some very good commanders out there these days.

Even so, there should be no problems with afv crews etc (particularly as armour tend to be far more mature than other arms)

The problem with this argument, my dear Jamo (:D), is that it suggests we continue to allow one group to be penalised for the lack of judgment of another. Whilst I agree that some men will resist such change, I don't think we should hide from moving this issue forward because of them.

If we can train men to be cool, calculating killing machines - we can train them to accept and fight alongside women - as I said originally - it's all been done before. It's a very simple concept really - let me spell it out - tasks in all fields of human endevour should be, indeed, must be, ability based rather than gender based.

PS - 'Tis an unfortunate fact of life that God gave men two heads, but only enough blood to fill one at a time!

Again, I disagree!

[Jamo]

Actually, Scallops, It suggests nothing of the sort. At no stage did I say that females should not be placed in the F echelon. It simply indicates a problem area.

As BBC said, retention is the big issue (and has been for many many years). For the sytem to work, it will simply need very effective and strong commanders who are prepared to weed out those few from both genders who make it through the seletion process but start to cause 'problems' once in. It will also require the system to be TOTALLY unbiased.

We are a very small population and, as such, must look at all ways to maintain our defense.

[Scallops]

Actually, Scallops, It suggests nothing of the sort. At no stage did I say that females should not be placed in the F echelon. It simply indicates a problem area.

As BBC said, retention is the big issue (and has been for many many years). For the sytem to work, it will simply need very effective and strong commanders who are prepared to weed out those few from both genders who make it through the seletion process but start to cause 'problems' once in. It will also require the system to be TOTALLY unbiased.

We are a very small population and, as such, must look at all ways to maintain our defense.

Well Jamo - if you're saying that although the attitude of some men might cause issues, but woman should be allowed, if capable, to undertake similar tasks anyway, then we agree. :D

But to make a point about certain male attitudes causing problems, which is a point you made, does sound like an argument against allowing it to happen. Hence my answer that we would then be allowing one group to be penalised for the lack of judgment of another.

Frankly - if some men can't deal with capable women serving on the Fl next to them - that's their problem - it shouldn't prevent it happening.

Whilst I understand this entire issue is born from retention rates, there is this more fundamental and important issue at stake here - and that is, roles should be determined by nothing other than ability - gender is irrelevant.

[DeanoH]

Two good points here


the Australian public is not ready to have a daughter come home in a body bag,..


or maybe Australian politicians are not prepared to incur the wrath that would ensue ?

and


The problem with this argument, my dear Jamo (:D), is that it suggests we continue to allow one group to be penalised for the lack of judgment of another.

Our whole society is run on this principle. From firearm laws to buying grog in Alice Springs. Why is this issue different ?

Deano

[BigJon]

How about everyone learns to get along and be nice to each other. Then we won't need armies of any sex...

Sometimes I live in a dream world! :D

[Scallops]

Our whole society is run on this principle. From firearm laws to buying grog in Alice Springs. Why is this issue different ?

Deano

The difference is that in this instance we are making a distinction purely based on gender. In your examples - both female and male persons are subjected to the same laws regarding firearms, or grog sales in Alice Springs. A debate on the merits of these actual laws is a different issue.

[ramblingboy42]

GS-ADI, we dont have "point" in our services, we have scouts.......I have served as an infantry soldier in case anyone doubts my knowledge. Having done what I did I would not encourage ANY female to serve in a combat unit. We came home to our women, not served alongside them.

[Basil135]

Personally, women have fought for equal rights for years. I dont have a problem with that. There are a number of jobs that either gender couldn't do due to physical attributes.

But that should be the ONLY line in the sand. If the testing is equal, then let them do it.



And as has been said already, where is the front line anyway? These days, a soldier in a support role is at just as much risk due to the latest weaponry as a grunt was 10 - 15 years ago.

Bullets don't discriminate - why should we?

[BBC]

GS-ADI, we dont have "point" in our services, we have scouts.......I have served as an infantry soldier in case anyone doubts my knowledge. Having done what I did I would not encourage ANY female to serve in a combat unit. We came home to our women, not served alongside them.

Too late, women are already serving in combat units...there are already women in posted to Infantry Battalions but, not in rifleman/woman (LOL) positions. They are there administering, driving, medics etc, already. The female driving in an operational area is far more vulnerable than a rifleman in a section.

What about the rifleman that chooses to come home to his male partner?...don't tell me you'll discriminate against his right to choose what gender of partner he comes home to!!!

[Dinty]

G'day All, GO SHEILA's if thats what you want to do, bloody go for it, how many other countries around the world have females in the front line, get with it Australia, boys get over your insecurities, cheers Dennis:angel:

[GS-ADI]

GS-ADI, we dont have "point" in our services, we have scouts.......I have served as an infantry soldier in case anyone doubts my knowledge. Having done what I did I would not encourage ANY female to serve in a combat unit. We came home to our women, not served alongside them.

Well I'm a trucky,.. not a Grunt,.. and we have point,
and these days you see girls in the units, that are just as good as the guys,

just on a side note,. girls that serve freely with medical units, in Africa, along side men, when they come home, seem to be less likely to off themselves then their male counterparts,.. Maybe we could learn something from the girls,

[Thommo]

I was once a typical sexist, homophobic soldier indoctrinated into a way of thinking that I had to grow out of.

I have served with females on active service. (Both Australian & NZ)
Most of these females were just as effective as many of the males.
I have had many females under my command that I would happily go into battle with.
There have been some males who I would not go into battle with.

I have no problems with a female soldier on the front line if she can cut the mustard!

What I do have a problem with is when they are trying to achieve % for political reasons. As a Platoon Sgt training recruits some years ago I WAS instructed to "encourage" the recruiting and passing of certain demographics such as females, aboriginals and other minorities at the expense of white anglo males!
Needless to say I PASSED individuals on their own merits much to the angst of my superiors.

What must be put in place for "combatant" (front line is a poor term to use) troops is for a common set of standards to be achieved for both genders.
This should apply to both physical and psychological testing.

There are females (very few but a few never the less) who have passed selection for various elements of "special forces" (and no we wont go into more detail on that) and there are specific roles in "special forces" for women.

If only the media would give the same level of coverage to a female coming home in a body bag as a male then there would be no problem.

Thommo

[Captain_Rightfoot]

News today. Sheilas on the battle front Come on . Leave it to the blokes. They need support behind without distraction.

Why do the women need their behinds supported? Sounds like it would be fun though :wasntme::wasntme: :D

[clean32]

I think that just the fact that there is a debate on if Female australians should join there male counterparts in the front lines is an indication that Australian society is not able to function in an impartial manor like some other couture who have little or no difficulty with females taking up arms in the front lines.
how ever the debate is healthy
just to put some more wood on the fire.
where all of the posts above are centered on what australians think or do not think, there are no comments as how this would be conceived by our enemies or the other side. if we were to take a moment and just look at where our troops are operational at the moment and what the locals would think or how they would respond to the australians having females in the front line. it would defiantly undermine the good social works that have been done to date.
there is on public record the treatment of every female taken prisoner in both GW1 & 2. All were molested with to some existent, the notable exception being some blond who was not but became a media show.
Now personally i have seen how female troops have been used as Bate and have witnessed battle plans changed because of having female troops on patrol. but worse the information that females are on the other side leading to the rewards of battle, perceived or other wise ( unfortunately its usaly otherwise).
My last point and again this is based on an observation is that Females tend to make quite good combat troops. i think the ability to multitask and the ability to hold up under some load situations put them in good steed but i also suspect that there is a couture background thing to this. non the less effective they were. on the down side ( and i know i may be blasted for this ) the female who has spent time under arms seems to become a bit more of the cold blooded killer, more inhumane even, Machine like. once this happens reintegrating into normal life is not really an option. tragic really when the fight you are fighting for actually destroys the goal.

[BBC]

I think that just the fact that there is a debate on if Female australians should join there male counterparts in the front lines is an indication that Australian society is not able to function in an impartial manor like some other couture who have little or no difficulty with females taking up arms in the front lines.
how ever the debate is healthy
just to put some more wood on the fire.
where all of the posts above are centered on what australians think or do not think, there are no comments as how this would be conceived by our enemies or the other side. if we were to take a moment and just look at where our troops are operational at the moment and what the locals would think or how they would respond to the australians having females in the front line. it would defiantly undermine the good social works that have been done to date.
there is on public record the treatment of every female taken prisoner in both GW1 & 2. All were molested with to some existent, the notable exception being some blond who was not but became a media show.
Now personally i have seen how female troops have been used as Bate and have witnessed battle plans changed because of having female troops on patrol. but worse the information that females are on the other side leading to the rewards of battle, perceived or other wise ( unfortunately its usaly otherwise).
My last point and again this is based on an observation is that Females tend to make quite good combat troops. i think the ability to multitask and the ability to hold up under some load situations put them in good steed but i also suspect that there is a couture background thing to this. non the less effective they were. on the down side ( and i know i may be blasted for this ) the female who has spent time under arms seems to become a bit more of the cold blooded killer, more inhumane even, Machine like. once this happens reintegrating into normal life is not really an option. tragic really when the fight you are fighting for actually destroys the goal.

Why is that this issue has been referred to a number of times, without any acknowledgement that you don't actually need to be in possession of a vagina to be 'molested'....? Such treatment is likely to be more gender prevalent but, it is certainly not gender specific. An enemy might not be so gender discriminating. Is it something that we males have trouble realizing?

[clean32]

Why is that this issue has been referred to a number of times, without any acknowledgement that you don't actually need to be in possession of a vagina to be 'molested'....? Such treatment is likely to be more gender prevalent but, it is certainly not gender specific. An enemy might not be so gender discriminating. Is it something that we males have trouble realizing?

oh very correct, i had to read your post a couple of times to get your point.
But yes, blue eyes white skin is an aphrodisiac to some cultures ( exaggerating for effect) although i have no personal knowledge of this ever happening, but i suspect that is because of where i was as opposed to it not happening elsewhere.
Personally its a bit like the first stone. i would not be prepared to put a female in such a situation but i would put a male. my reasons why are not easy to articulate as i am not so sure of them myself. maybe it has some thing to do with that book beside my bed.

talking of books. book number 4 or 5 of the Dune series has an interesting debate on the female army. science fiction i know but maybe not so when you look at the author.

[Blknight.aus]

theres exactly one reason I accept as to why females cant do some jobs in the military and its nothing to do with ability and everything to do with physiology.

Its hygiene.

I dont want to get into the whole messy deal of it but there are occasions and situation where the opportunity for adequate field hygiene isn't achievable. Its a long and convoluted debate which also got highly political when the advent of certain drugs that prevented certain things from happening and limited the ability of procreation lifted a lot of the burden of the initial problem was slandered as "Why should we do that xy+z are our natural rights" by certain members of the PC bandwagon who in my opinion should have been shot then drawn by the ankles behind a wagon for a good long way. Had said people kept their PC mouths shut this whole thing could have been over and we could have had towlies from burkaturbistan being neatly one shotted by ADF members with nicely form fitting body armour and Kevlar helmets.

I'm for it with the exception of a couple of trades and positions. (and they're mainly because I dont want to see 3 headed babies)

[THE BOOGER]

I think if they can pass the same phyiscal tests as the guys let them do any thing . back in the 80,s the girls BE tests were relaxed because to many were failing:eek: I have heard Daves hygeine question put forward too, some extra female products will have to be carried by the QM but this can be overcome, it will mean some consessions for the girls that guys dont get.
Remember equal rights does not mean we are the same (thank god):angel:
Dave when you had a real job how did they pick drivers and radio operators at my old unit if you could carry a section of 8 track link 100m you got to drive if not you were a radio op?

[GS-ADI]

I dont think hygiene is that big a deal anymore,.
Girls are smart enough to control there own, um visits from aunty flows,
the rotations are higher then they used to be..
And in general people tend to wear stuff now that looks after the body more in extreme conditions.. I have a singlet I wear out field that dosnt hold smell for 2 weeks wet it and it Dries in no time. I’m sure girls that look into it have a range of options..
Does every soldier need to have the snip? Cause that could be as big a Hygiene issue?
Not every woman should/could be a front line soldier,. But I could say the same thing for men,.. Some Women are just built for the task, just as some men are..

[BBC]

BlkKnight,

GS-ADI is correct. Hygiene is something to be dealt with by both genders.

Sitting here writing this in west Africa and seeing women here, everyday living and labouring in their subsistence agriculture where, they hack their existence in the jungle environment of this place....carrying huge loads of water, wood, with a child wrapped onto their backs, living in a packed mud hut, giving birth, and no doubt.......MENSTRUATING.....all without the aid of a QM following them around with a pack of tampons.....My Goodness!!!!....how do they survive.....so far from a shopping centre!!!!! Without even a credit card!!!!!

Unbeknownst to most men....women have been carrying on in very hygienic ways since.....Mmmmm...well........since forever.

My, my, my.....modern living has stolen the collective imagination of the developed world.....whatever did we do in the 'good old days'?

Next!!!!

[dullbird]

:eek: You said that forbidden word :eek::eek:

Well done that man....he has it to a "T" or should that be "M"? :D:D

;) Very well said BBC...and very true


X2 for BBC

[THE BOOGER]

UUUGH the word:eek: yes women have been coping for ever but men dont talk about secret womens business:p but it still has to be taken into account and can be over come if people want to. There are those who dont want to give any ground on both side of this debate, have to type quietly as have wife and two daughters in the house if i say they cant do something they take it as a challenge (and then beat me up)

[DeanoH]

The women might be able to cope :), but can the blokes cope with PMT ??!!! :eek::eek:


Deano

[THE BOOGER]

They have been known to get away with murder

[blitz]

To put it blunty, I would rather a murderous bitch beside me in a fire fight that I could trust, than a male concientious objector who at the worst possible moment could throw down his gun and plead for mercy.

When the brown smelly stuff hits the fan it's whats inside that counts not the outside attachments.

Go girls - if they are up to the same rigours as the males to get in.

[THE BOOGER]

Sounds funny now but at kapoka i roomed with a guy who had nightmares about shooting people he couldnt do it hated shooting at human shaped targets he was discharged very quickly:eek: . After the first couple of sleepless nights he was almost killed by his room mates:twisted:, just goes to show its not everybodies cup of tea. Give every body the chance if they pass give the sign-up bonus:o and train em up.

[peewee]

ok, reading through some of the comments there are some women that could do the job. but i thinck the problem is that in most cases men ( and women) act differently around the opposite sex. this may not be good in some situations.
now the problem as i see it is that the military population is a reflection of the civilian population, and the military is controled to a certain extent by the civilian population ( under the control of government, voted in by the population) as it is we are mostly brought up to behave differently to the opposite sex, now if the civilian population treated men and women as total equals and saw no difference between them, then it would work in the military. but would you want to live in a society like that ? not sure myself

[dullbird]

ok, reading through some of the comments there are some women that could do the job. but i thinck the problem is that in most cases men ( and women) act differently around the opposite sex. this may not be good in some situations.
now the problem as i see it is that the military population is a reflection of the civilian population, and the military is controled to a certain extent by the civilian population ( under the control of government, voted in by the population) as it is we are mostly brought up to behave differently to the opposite sex, now if the civilian population treated men and women as total equals and saw no difference between them, then it would work in the military.
but would you want to live in a society like that ? not sure myself

dont like the idea of cooking and sending the missus out to fix the car :lol2:

[Sleepy]

Heavy thread guys. A lot of sexism bubbling up too.

As far as I'm concerned, (and as Shonky said earlier) there are some big scary women out there that I would prefer were fighting for me. If they want to fight let them.

You guys forget that whilst menstruation would have it's hygiene hurdles it may well have potential benefits in a war..........

Imagine a Battalion of Women with Synchronised PMT - Now that is a potential WMD!



Never catch me in the forces - wouldn't know where to pee!!! Bwahahahahaha

[Shonky]

Imagine a Battalion of Women with Synchronised PMT - Now that is a potential WMD!

Amen. :eek:

[Shonky]

ps - got a laugh when I quoted your message and got the rest of it, Sleeps... :lol2:

[isuzutoo-eh]

I don't care which gender defends my property/rights/heritage/future as long as they do a good job and for those who have, are or will do so, I am thankful.


But if women and men are so equal, why is it that most sports have open teams that any gender person can join, and women-only teams that I can't join. Why does having a penis become a reason for discrimination against?:twisted:
I played mixed netball for a season and the rule was there had to be 2 girls on the court per team at all times, but the boys didn't matter if there was some or none. There were all girl teams but it was and is against the rules for all boy teams. Sexual equality my arse!


Is this sort of rule because men are better, or because women have inferiority complexes?


Would make the olympics a whole lot shorter if genders weren't divided for competition :p

-Mark

[dullbird]

I don't care which gender defends my property/rights/heritage/future as long as they do a good job and for those who have, are or will do so, I am thankful.


But if women and men are so equal, why is it that most sports have open teams that any gender person can join, and women-only teams that I can't join. Why does having a penis become a reason for discrimination against?:twisted:
I played mixed netball for a season and the rule was there had to be 2 girls on the court per team at all times, but the boys didn't matter if there was some or none. There were all girl teams but it was and is against the rules for all boy teams. Sexual equality my arse!



Is this sort of rule because men are better, or because women have inferiority complexes?
Would make the olympics a whole lot shorter if genders weren't divided for competition :p

-Mark

Same applys to mixed touch football;)

[Chops]

Been hiding under a rock lately? There are plenty of men out there that swear in front of women and expect their women to have the lawns mowed as well as the dinner cooked ;)

Plenty of women are equal or greater wage earners than their men....we ARE treated mostly as equals these days, which is what most women want, and rightly so. Everyone knows that there are physical differences but when it comes to intellect, integrity, conscience and all the other non-physical stuff...well women are right up there with the men :D

So if they want to fight...let them, and if the men don't...well let them not ;)

Well,, heres my two bobs worth,,,

I love what our armed forces do,,, I feel safe,, :D
I dont care whos up front, so long as their capable,,I do have the utmost respect for those that are willing to protect our way of life.

I've worked in factories most of my life, and the introduction of more women to the workforce has made lots of things much better,,,(especially quality wise IMHO). Women are more than capable of getting the job done along side the men of this world,,,

Having said that,,,my dad made me grow up to respect women in every way shape and form,, open doors etc etc,,,(general manners),,
I believe that these manners/beliefs that have been instilled in me, make me worry for the worst when I hear our women are off to war,,, yes, women can kick butt as well as any guy,,,( mine too :eek:) but "old school" tells me their not "supposed" to,,
Its hard to overcome some of these teachings, from family members who have fought against our international foes, especially when they morn the fact that some of our other family and friends "didn't" come home,,

So, to all that disagree with my views, "Im sorry,,,, :(", I treat men and women fairly, both socially, and at work,,(Im a supervisor),, but I dont believe "I" would send them to war,,,the anxiety over their safety, for me, would be more than I could bare,,,

Chops

[blitz]

Ok so here is a different slant, why do the men who disagree with women fighting on the front line, think that they are the only ones who can defend what is ours??????

Sorry but that is crap. Sexist and and just plain wrong. my woman in any fight would be right up there with me, not just at the drop of a hat but see it coming and be my back up all the way to hell. I would be the same for her as well. I have trained with martial arts with some people of both genders that are capable of killing. I have also trained with some people of both gender that just couldnt.

also some one mentioned rape? so bloody what? men cope it as well . not nice for either sex - really not nice so what is the issue??

ah jgoodness perhaps I grew up in a generation that taught that women can achieve anything and that they are not inferior to men.

And for all the men out there I am a male that has had much more than his fair share of intense physical violence, which over the years has messed with my head but all in all still hanging in there and being a constructive part of society.

[George130]

I have no problem but as was hinted at earlier in the thread. Combat women tend to make the males look like kids.
Combat women are more ruthless in the job and recreation from what I have read.
Would be scarey to meet one out on the town:eek:.

Otherwise the fear is having the media brew up a storm over that nice little girl killed on the front line by the big bad military.

[dullbird]

I have no problem but as was hinted at earlier in the thread. Combat women tend to make the males look like kids.
Combat women are more ruthless in the job and recreation from what I have read.
Would be scarey to meet one out on the town:eek:.


Otherwise the fear is having the media brew up a storm over that nice little girl killed on the front line by the big bad military.

I wouldn't worry......it wont make front page if another dog gets stuck in a cave.:D

[dullbird]

should of raised a poll....

[George130]

should of raised a poll....

But are we going to poll 4wders are late sipping prius drivers?:Rolling::Rolling:

[dullbird]

I would laugh with you but I haven't got any idea what you wrote :lol2:

[Bearman]

G'day All, GO SHEILA's if thats what you want to do, bloody go for it, how many other countries around the world have females in the front line, get with it Australia, boys get over your insecurities, cheers Dennis:angel:

X2
I am with you Dennis. Over the years I have known many women who have been just as capable and determined as most blokes and WANT to do this sort of thing. So I say good luck to them and lets move on!....Brian

[dullbird]

Ohhhh I like brain twister!! :D

[GS-ADI]

Just had another thought

What about when a bloke, who is protective of women, is confronted by a female soldier on the other side. Is he not going to shoot because it's a woman and likely be shot himself? or will he shoot?

wasn’t it in ww2 when something like 80% or 85% of soldiers would not take an open kill, "that guys sleeping lets not shoot him"

The Germans got a shock from the Tommy gun wielding Russian Girls,..

[THE BOOGER]

Since the american civil war its been known that only about 5% of soldiers shoot to kill most aim off or just dont shoot maybe the girls can improve on this.:twisted: Although for military purposes wounding is better than killing:eek: it takes alot more resources to look after a wounded soldier than a dead one.

[Shonky]

That's my point.
There were something like 800,000 Russian women soldiers in WW2...about 70% of whom fought on the front line.

As more and more armies [there are already some of course that do] are likely to accept females on the front line it could well happen.

;)

We are being very Army centric here! What about all the female rebels/guerillas/freedom fighters/jihadists? :ohyes:

The Viet Cong used female soldiers extensively... in fact the Vietnamese have many female fighting heros dating right back to the early french occupations.

More recently, there have been more than a few women and young girls lining up to blow themselves to bits in the name of Allah...

:eek:

[Shonky]

I know - the point I was making is that "the enemy" quite happily allow women to fight...

It's not other armies we are fighting these days - it's extremist civilians with a nasty agenda.

[Jamo]

Since the american civil war its been known that only about 5% of soldiers shoot to kill most aim off or just dont shoot maybe the girls can improve on this.:twisted: Although for military purposes wounding is better than killing:eek: it takes alot more resources to look after a wounded soldier than a dead one.

I don't think it comes down to that in battle. Dudes might say they shoot to kill or shoot to wound, but in general combat it's more like shoot to neutralise/stop the threat. If someones shooting at you or posing an immediate threat, you shoot. Maybe you hope to wound only, but that'd be just a hope. Centre of the seen mass or the general direction of the incoming fire in a heated exchange.

Most probably wouldn't know a female was hit until the clearing after (particularly as current enemies all wear dresses no matter what gender!:p)

In any case, it's us we're talking about do the point about be able to shoot a girl is moot. We won't be shooting our own girls!!

[DeanoH]

also some one mentioned rape? so bloody what? men cope it as well . not nice for either sex - really not nice so what is the issue??


The issue is that rape and war go hand in hand, and it's a fact that considerably more women are raped than men! Even the American military get involved. Rape and murder of the very people they are there to protect.

So is it reasonable to put female front line troops at greater risk than their male counterparts ? Does it matter that women may 'want' to be there or is the additional risk that they would be taking a determining factor ?

Imagine the 'Duty of Care' argument a smart lawyer could put forward in the case of a female front line soldier who had been raped. .............. "yes, Colonel you knew that your female infantry stood a much greater chance of rape (than males), what did you do to lessen this risk"....... A losing argument whatever the response.

Deano

[Sleepy]

Watched "GI Jane" last night on TV. Pretty lame movie about a woman (Demi Moore) trying to qualify for the US Navy Seals. Interesting theme though - made me think of this thread.

Bottom line was the comment by the Defence Senator that no politician would risk having a woman on the front line - lose too many votes.

Soooo, is it about an individual "rights" or a societies fears?

[GS-ADI]

here is a old photo of a girl that makes the issue fuzzy
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/829.jpg

[Rudolf]

Wait till they are so fat and over weight.
Some are in our police force and cant even walk properly, never mind doing foot patrols in town.
Lots of news and rumours used to do the rounds about sexual asault on female soldiers in the US milatary.

[Shonky]

...plenty of fat men in the armed forces ;)

I have heard one refer to himself as "a fine example of the contemporary western soldier"... :D

[Sleepy]

Should fatties be allowed on the front line.

Just think they'll:


eat all the rations
decrease the range of LRPV
give in to enemy interogation techniques ...."Just tells us where your troops are hiding and the Krispy Kremes are yours"
increase hit rate of enemy snipers

[GS-ADI]

Raaf get more food then the army does,.. they are just trim cause they spend so much free time in the gym..


Saw on the news one night they the armed forces are trying to get their troops to lose weight

BUT....you should see what they are feeding them :eek: It's no wonder they are fat ;)

[cewilson]

Raaf get more food then the army does,.. they are just trim cause they spend so much free time in the gym..


Stick with subjects that you 'think' you know about :twisted:

[THE BOOGER]

I,ve eaten in both RAAF or,s mess and army or,s mess know which i prefer RAAF wagga used to have fruit loops an all:p but that was before they brought in contract catering:mad:

[cartm58]

let's just say there are plenty of dead male soldiers who have been killed by female soldiers in WWII, Vietnam and so on.

Women and children can kill just as well as any man given a weapon and the opportunity.

Women can and do serve in front line roles, have manned anything from artillery, motor, machine guns, anti aircraft, combat engineers, they have flown in fighters and bombers.

The argument isn't about are they capable of fighting the argument is do we want them to fight

[dobbo]

The question is if the average soldier came across the following scene

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/54678/

Would he fire his weapon, or would he fire his weapon?

[clean32]

My argument against women being in the frountline is 2 fold.

Standing orders were, pre-puberty with a weapon, clip them. Female with a weapon, clip them. a group with females armed, ID your self, once ( there shock) twice ( look for reaction) third time ( judge reaction) clip them. an all mail group. 123 negotiate its there first move.

the second part. is after its all over women seen to have it a bit harder to fit back into the world. where a guy seems to do the i know that you know it was a bad day lets have a beer and talk about the rugby. women seem to chat about it have doubts about it and its seems to eat them up a bit. Maybe because there isint enough women to talk amongst themselfs but then they tend to avoid each other after. honestly i dont know just what i have seen.

my parting statement as a guy is that defense is about defending australia, thats not just a lump of dirt thats a life style or the freedom to choose a life style, a couture etc all that stuff, that includes the women of australia. its a bit confusing to be over there defending here when what you are defending is there??

[dullbird]

My argument against women being in the frountline is 2 fold.

Standing orders were, pre-puberty with a weapon, clip them. Female with a weapon, clip them. a group with females armed, ID your self, once ( there shock) twice ( look for reaction) third time ( judge reaction) clip them. an all mail group. 123 negotiate its there first move.

the second part. is after its all over women seen to have it a bit harder to fit back into the world.
where a guy seems to do the i know that you know it was a bad day lets have a beer and talk about the rugby. women seem to chat about it have doubts about it and its seems to eat them up a bit. Maybe because there isint enough women to talk amongst themselfs but then they tend to avoid each other after. honestly i dont know just what i have seen.

my parting statement as a guy is that defense is about defending australia, thats not just a lump of dirt thats a life style or the freedom to choose a life style, a couture etc all that stuff, that includes the women of australia. its a bit confusing to be over there defending here when what you are defending is there??

To me that states that men don't deal with it very well......thats not facing up to the reality of what happened not talking about it and shutting it away is not a way to deal with things that may keep you awake at night.

[Sleepy]

...at least women will talk about it ;)

Of that you can be certain....





























run away
run away
run away
run away
run away
run away
run away

[clean32]

To me that states that men don't deal with it very well......thats not facing up to the reality of what happened not talking about it and shutting it away is not a way to deal with things that may keep you awake at night.

And neither is Blabbing like a girl to some uni educated pimply faced drongo who has no idea of the world.
bottling it up isint an answer as you said but you have your mates and you dont need words with strangers.
Besides the demons are more about what didn't happen than what did. the US has a massive budget on rehabilitation, all the help you could ask for. but i think if you dig into it a bit more you will see that the guys who stuff up have the LMF issues, the guys who go bush just got to noisy.
i dont have the words to say it correctly but i notice no other noisy guys are posting so i will bail now.

[procrastination inc]

my parting statement as a guy is that defense is about defending australia, thats not just a lump of dirt thats a life style or the freedom to choose a life style, a couture etc all that stuff,

Aussie Couture
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/776.jpg

[clean32]

Yep...plenty of men refused to talk about their experiences in WW1 and WW2....sort of blocked it out as if it didn't happen...and plenty of them committed suicide

Of course...we don't have enough experience with female soldiers to know the likely outcome...but at least women will talk about it ;)

They neither blocked it or committed suicide.

have you even seen any of the letters sent to the wife's of returning solders, more commonly POWs?? ad to that that every one was involved everyone had lost some one as well as many of there fathers had seen the first war etc.

there is a paper ( Australian)( Vietnam) that i saw once. that conscripts from families whose father had fought in the second war didn't stuff up. where those that returned to PC sucky chatty partners/ families or indifferent families were the ones who had the problems. nothing worse than " what are you thinking? please talk to me? bla bla bla you just cant get your head of topic.

[dullbird]

They neither blocked it or committed suicide.

have you even seen any of the letters sent to the wife's of returning solders, more commonly POWs?? ad to that that every one was involved everyone had lost some one as well as many of there fathers had seen the first war etc.

there is a paper ( Australian)( Vietnam) that i saw once. that conscripts from families whose father had fought in the second war didn't stuff up. where those that returned to PC sucky chatty partners/ families or indifferent families were the ones who had the problems.
nothing worse than " what are you thinking? please talk to me? bla bla bla you just cant get your head of topic.

but did you ever consider this is because they may of without realising withdrawn themselves from society?
Hence why loved ones get worried and asked such questions...talking about it means you have to deal with it.....coming home and being withdrawn would not be nice for the person coming home as well as the person waiting for that person to come home I would of thought.

Just my opinion of course but that statement you have written above again only screams to me that there are men out there that do not cope with what they have done...and can not deal with what they have seen so try to block it out rather than again dealing with it.

[clean32]

Hmmmm...so the blokes that shot themselves in the head with their service revolvers years after the war didn't commit suicide?

and the ones that shot upright and stood to attention clicking their heels at certain sounds, or banging their heads on the table and all that sort of stuff, while they never talked about the war were OK?

I am talking WW1 & WW2 here coz none of our family served in Vietnam.....and have I seen letters, yes I have.....and they were pretty to the point and unfeeling IMHO.

But this is a bit OT anyway......coz some women would likely cope OK, just like some men do.

you are wrong

[cewilson]

Some things you just don't talk about. How do you explain to your wife about seeing women and children die in front of you - and they look no different to your own wife and kids.............

Everyone deals with it their own way. There are services etc out there to help people (Critical Incident Stress etc) but forcing someone to talk will never work. They need to do it off of their own back.

Either way, it's getting away from the original topic of the thread. And personally it wouldn't matter if it was a bloke or a woman - they would both most likely have the same side effects to seeing/doing the same ****!

[BBC]

I've been looking for this document to show in this thread.

This lady worked in the ADF with me. She's been working 'front line' for a couple of years now and survived through one of the more intense conventional wars that have been seen recently....the 22 Day War in Gaza....
and she's still there; giving her all:

18911

[George130]

I have noticed in this thread that nothing has been said about incidents like Rwanda.
Some of what went on there made conventional war seem tame.

[DeanoH]

I've been looking for this document to show in this thread.

This lady worked in the ADF with me. She's been working 'front line' for a couple of years now and survived through one of the more intense conventional wars that have been seen recently....the 22 Day War in Gaza....
and she's still there; giving her all:

18911

All very well and good. A bit like Pavlov's dog really. Stop firing rockets into Israel and perhaps you wont get the crap shot out of you in return.

Deano

[BBC]

All very well and good. A bit like Pavlov's dog really. Stop firing rockets into Israel and perhaps you wont get the crap shot out of you in return.

Deano

Goes both ways mate. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Stop oppressing people, develop respect, and they might be able to re-discover the co-existence for which the place was known for.

You'd really think the memory of the holocaust would give the Israelis the appreciation of what people will resort to when they are forced from their land and held behind a wall.

[DeanoH]

Goes both ways mate. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Stop oppressing people, develop respect, and they might be able to re-discover the co-existence for which the place was known for.

You'd really think the memory of the holocaust would give the Israelis the appreciation of what people will resort to when they are forced from their land and held behind a wall.

No argument on either point ! Pomms and the UselessN have also got a fair bit to answer for here.

But from a tactical point of view, .........."don't take a knife to a gun fight", tossing dumb rockets into a country with precision munitions isn't the smartest thing to do. If you poke a stick into a bullants nest don't complain when you get bit.

Deano

[clean32]

Goes both ways mate. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Stop oppressing people, develop respect, and they might be able to re-discover the co-existence for which the place was known for.

You'd really think the memory of the holocaust would give the Israelis the appreciation of what people will resort to when they are forced from their land and held behind a wall.

Mate this goes way back, did you ever read about the Mufi of J. or things like how many Muslims actually fight for the IDF, its much more complicated. personally i have no idea how a solution could be formed or accepted by anyone.

[GS-ADI]

I have noticed in this thread that nothing has been said about incidents like Rwanda.
Some of what went on there made conventional war seem tame.

I really feel for the people on clean up,. throwing dead babies into pits 4 at a time, has got to do something to a persons mental state,. I don’t care who you are or what sex you are, it has to have an effect..
God bless the people that put their hand up to help out in that place, God bless Medics everywhere

[clean32]

I really feel for the people on clean up,. throwing dead babies into pits 4 at a time, has got to do something to a persons mental state,. I don’t care who you are or what sex you are, it has to have an effect..
God bless the people that put their hand up to help out in that place, God bless Medics everywhere

its not the kids, its the bits and the flys and its better if its a few days latter, they doint look so human and there eyes doint look back

[BBC]

No argument on either point ! Pomms and the UselessN have also got a fair bit to answer for here.

But from a tactical point of view, .........."don't take a knife to a gun fight", tossing dumb rockets into a country with precision munitions isn't the smartest thing to do. If you poke a stick into a bullants nest don't complain when you get bit.

Deano

Just depends what you can resort to. By your take, the Taliban are just about to take a licking from a technologically superior force.

In the end, the Israelis have all the watches and, the Palestinians have all the time. The demographics of the situation will eventually overcome the current situation. The Palestinians have a burgeoning population and, like any developed state, the Israeli birthrate is right down.

Hence, their immigrant and settlement program, whereby they are trying to illegally stake out their turf for the future....the Germans used to call it...Lebensraum.

[clean32]

BBC is correct

to add

The current crop of immigrants or for about the last 20 years are not Jewish state makers of the past they are more likely to be moving away from where they came than to Israel, this has created other problems like Neo Nazi teen age gangs ( the children of jewish immigrants) there is also a large jewish underclass, Black and Asian jews who are economically ostracized.
Next have a look at the birth place of Israelis leaders many came from the eastern block, this is the main indicator to there thinking ( if you understand eastern block thinking)
Lastly Israel has become a fractionalized society. in the past all these fractions were united in the defense of Israel and there only differences were over " when to attack" today the common course has diminished and the resulting gap between these fractions is widening resulting in violence between different jewish communities.

on the other hand the Palestinians have always been fractionalized, different groups jockeying for power positions and influence in the rest of the world, this is there main motivation, the destruction of Israel has only in reality caused to be a rally cry for each of these individual groups ( on the main) IN short why bite the hand that feeds you. its the same as saying Northern Ireland will never return to Ireland because Ireland hasn't got the DOE where the UK has.
its almost the same with the Palestinians and more so the Gaza strip, there utilities food, commerce and trade ( what there is of it) all comes from Israel.
the real problem is that there has never been any real individual organization to negotiate with, worse although each attempt for any such Palestinian organization to rise has been hampered by other Palestinian organizations, other Muslim nations and of course the Israelis themselves. if we were to look back at the start of the Israeli state 1948? it was the surrounding Muslim nation / forces that displaced Palestinian villages and not the Israelis ( with a few exceptions) it was the other Muslim nations who hampered the initial UN development programs etc etc.

although what i have written is quite simplex, i hope that it gives some insight to the problem over there and that there is no easy solution. if it was easy it would have happened already.

[clean32]

i should add, the only real force trying to pose a solution in steps in Iraq but obviously this would not be acceptable to the west. however Israel and Iraq have an interesting relationship ( if contradictory).
Iraq was up until 1953 ( i think) a democratic state, and a fast emerging power in the region, geographically they also so maintained quite good relations with the soviets. Now remember a lot on munitions and equipment was moved though Iraq to russia during WW2. in fact the majority was moved that way. during this time Iraq benefited but a reasonably modern armed force ( originally to defend the railways) and the best infrastructure in the region, add to this a high oil income after the war, this all lead to a stable and strong state that was by no means a western puppet. the solution to this problem, nutted out my the Poms and funded then implemented by the CIA was to over through the duly elected government of the democratic nation of Iraq and install a puppet dictator, The Shar, followed by his son. most of us can remember the rest.
its basically the same story in Burma.
so things are not always as they appear to be.

[DeanoH]

You've made some good points here


Just depends what you can resort to. By your take, the Taliban are just about to take a licking from a technologically superior force.


The point I'm making is that tactically, goading a stronger opponent to attack you may obtain strategic gains for your cause, hearts and minds, international sympathy etc. but at what cost. Continued death and misery for your people. What I'm questioning here is the pain worth the gain ?
Re the Taliban. Didn't they start off as essentially "the defenders of the faith" in Russian controlled Afganistan and have the support of the US at the time ?
As for expecting the technically superior force to "win", I think that history has shown us that an idealogically committed force will ultimately overcome a morally corrupt one regardless of the technologys involved.


In the end, the Israelis have all the watches and, the Palestinians have all the time. The demographics of the situation will eventually overcome the current situation. The Palestinians have a burgeoning population and, like any developed state, the Israeli birthrate is right down.


Watched a documentary yesterday about an Australian film showing how peace and tolerance is actually on the rise globally. It showed an Israeli primary school where Arab and Jewish kids were not segregated and learned to get on OK. Also had a Nigerian Iman and Christian cleric puting aside their differences and working towards peaceful co-existance in their community. Had a similiar tale in rural Kenya.
Quite uplifting really, perhaps there is hope for an enduring solution and not just a "final" one. Israels current hard line stance is perhaps understandable given the Palestinians election of Hamas whose avowed goal is the complete destruction of Israel. Don't see much hope of reconciliation whilst this goal remains Hamas' main credo.
Pity the adults can't get on as well as the primary school kids.



Hence, their immigrant and settlement program, whereby they are trying to illegally stake out their turf for the future....the Germans used to call it...Lebensraum.

The big difference here of course is that Nazi Germany wanted the land AND the complete extermination of the population. Pretty much the same goal as Hamas' really.

Deano

[clean32]

You've made some good points here
The point I'm making is that tactically, goading a stronger opponent to attack you may obtain strategic gains for your cause, hearts and minds, international sympathy etc. but at what cost. Continued death and misery for your people. What I'm questioning here is the pain worth the gain ?
Re the Taliban. Didn't they start off as essentially "the defenders of the faith" in Russian controlled Afganistan and have the support of the US at the time ? Deano


well actually the Talinban was a pakistani creation with a lot of support from the poms ( and kiwis french etc) aussies had other security problems at that time. where the US supported pakistan.they never really understood the taliban and were never really involved with them until the blowpipe disaster and its replacement with the stingers. the US tended to follow old pommy policy of funding warlords and different fighting groups with training usually being provided by others.
in the mean time the taliban grew stronger by using pakistani intelligence training and funds along with Palestinian recruiting methods and doctrine.
it has only been in the last 3-4 years that the US has become awear of the true existent of Pakistanis involvement, although everyone else did know.


As for expecting the technically superior force to "win", I think that history has shown us that an idealogically committed force will ultimately overcome a morally corrupt one regardless of the technologys involved. Deano

on the contrary, history has shown that a force with tenacity and time can over come a technically superior one. morals have nothing to do with it. if we were to look most non western forces they all tend to be corrupt in some form or another, paying for promotion, the selling of arms and stores to who ever even the enemy etc



Watched a documentary yesterday about an Australian film showing how peace and tolerance is actually on the rise globally. It showed an Israeli primary school where Arab and Jewish kids were not segregated and learned to get on OK. Also had a Nigerian Iman and Christian cleric puting aside their differences and working towards peaceful co-existance in their community. Had a similiar tale in rural Kenya.
Quite uplifting really, perhaps there is hope for an enduring solution and not just a "final" one. Israels current hard line stance is perhaps understandable given the Palestinians election of Hamas whose avowed goal is the complete destruction of Israel. Don't see much hope of reconciliation whilst this goal remains Hamas' main credo.
Pity the adults can't get on as well as the primary school kids.Deano
Yes a very nice sponsored bit of international propaganda.

Hamas recruiting pitch is the destruction of Israel, it works very well on the poor uneducated, just blame Israel for why they are not driving a merc and have 3 wife's. Hamas has goals but it is more of a control, unite and make money for the boys at the top as well as promoting there brand of Islam. oh and there leaders who live in another country.


big difference here of course is that Nazi Germany wanted the land AND the complete extermination of the population. Pretty much the same goal as Hamas' really.Deano

wrong on both accounts, The Nazis wished to enslave the slavic races not exterminate, that was reserved for the jews and Gipsies ( who share some common ancestry). Hamas wants control not extermination. if there was no Israel then Hamas would have no reason to exist, Hamas is dependent on Israel for its existence.

[BBC]

DeanoH & clean32,

Well reasoned and articulated debates developing here from both of you. It has come away though, from the intent of the thread.

I put the Gaza War story in from my friend to demonstrate the position of a female in a conflict zone, albeit that she was not a combatant bearing arms. This though, did not prevent one side of the conflict shooting at her in her car. I think if she had been bearing arms she would have been killed.

Should we continue the question of human conflict (specifically the Israel/Palestine question) here, or take it to a seperate thread? Much to be discussed and debated. It all comes down to the human condition and how one culture sees themselves in relation to another.

Cheers,

BBC

[blitz]

Isnt there an old saying that goes along the lines of: fighting for peace like rooting for virginity?

Old man Ghandi had it right in regards to peace, so to do the budhists, if you really want peace then you have to stop shooting the crap out of each other and treating each other with dignity and respect.

until both side of the fence can do that then there is no chance for peace

[123rover50]

Here we go. We can discuss this all over again. I still think its wrong for the sharp end.

Didiman

[bob10]

I don't care who they send, just don't send me,[again], I'll fight them on the beaches, preferably Fraser when the tailor are running, cheers, Bob [smilebigeye] :twobeers: