Fully floating axles - Why?

[TimNZ]

A bit of a question for the brains trust, why do they, (LR), bother having fully floating rear axles on the defender? The reason I ask is because my 110 has flogged out another set of drive flanges and when it goes to the dealer next week they will possibly fit new ones with a generous amount of loctite. So why do they not fit "one piece" semi floating axles, or just weld the drive flanges on?

Cheers,

Tim

[Grimace]

I don't understand why you would argue against full floating axles.

[weeds]

my 110 has flogged out another set of drive flanges and when it goes to the dealer next week they will possibly fit new ones with a generous amount of loctite.

Cheers,

Tim

what sort of loctite are you talking about, not sure how a generous amount will help

i have no idea why they are fully floating

fit maxi drive axles 'hy-tuff', convert to oil lubed and all will be good............

[rick130]

Ah, I think you are asking why they use two piece axles instead of a flanged axle, like everybody else ?

Tradition and cost. It's cheaper for them to make a two piece setup. IMO a one piece flanged axle is better.

A fully floating axle is determined by how it's suspended by the hub bearings, not whether the axle is flanged or two piece ;)
eg. a single row bearing, as used in the rear of coiler Patrols is a semi-floating axle as part of the vehicle weight is borne by the axle. ie, you can't withdraw the axle without the hub and wheels falling off as there is no stub axle.

A full floating axle uses spaced bearings between the stub axle and hub and you can remove the axle independently of the hub and wheels and still use the vehicle, tow it, etc. the axles bear no vehicle weight.

[rick130]

A bit of a question for the brains trust, why do they, (LR), bother having fully floating rear axles on the defender? The reason I ask is because my 110 has flogged out another set of drive flanges and when it goes to the dealer next week they will possibly fit new ones with a generous amount of loctite. So why do they not fit "one piece" semi floating axles, or just weld the drive flanges on?

Cheers,

Tim

BTW, the loctite will last hardly any time, even if they use something like 680 IMO, but good luck, I could be wrong.

As weeds said, the only cure with two piece axles is oil lubed hubs and an RTC3511 hub seal.

I can't believe this problem is still persisting after all these years (since going to greased hubs in the early nineties)
It's situations like this that give you the poops when companies don't address known problems, and this has been happening and leaving people stranded for near on twenty years now.
How bloody pathetic......

[isuzurover]

If you want one piece flanged axles, buy some of these from Rovertracks:
http://www.rovertracks.com/images/products/RoverTracksAxles275.jpg

HOWEVER - as others has mentioned, this does not convert your axle to semi floating, it is still a full floating axle.

[Slunnie]

I apart from the practical benfits wrt broken axles etc, I was always under the impression that full floating setups were able to carry more load than comparable semi floaters.

[roverrescue]

Talking benefits of one piece vs two piece,

One little trick I have up my touring sleeve is the trailer I run when heading north has landy hubs / stubs. For the trailer I broached out the splines on old drive flanges and capped them off to seal the hub.... so if I ever break an axle or diff on the 130, I can swap the driven flanges off the truck with the broached flanges of the trailer, drop the appropriate tail shaft and not have to pull hubs/ swivels apart in the bush (especially the fronts with CV and all).

havent had to use it in anger but Im sure i will be happy if I ever have to!!!!

Steve

[JDNSW]

I apart from the practical benfits wrt broken axles etc, I was always under the impression that full floating setups were able to carry more load than comparable semi floaters.

Everything else being equal (which it rarely is) a full floating axle can carry more load than semifloating simply because there are two bearings carrying the load not one. The other advantage is that in the event of a broken axle, the wheel affected retains the correct alignment, reducing the possibility of loss of control.

Again, everything being equal, the axle is less likely to break, because the axle is in pure torque, not torque plus bending moment because of the weight it is carrying. In theory, this also makes the axle lighter for the same strength, but in practice the heavier hub to carry two bearings makes up for this.

Apart from lower manufacturing cost, the two piece flange and axle setup, allowing a small amount of movement between the shaft and the flange, relieves the half axle of small bending moments that will result from loose wheel bearings or distortion of the axle housing.

John

[PAT303]

The wheels stay on if you snap an axle or flog out a bearing,thats one of the good things but overall floating axles are a better design.With the two piece flange I put a blob of grease in the cap every time I greased the uni's and the disco still had it's originals when I sold it or go the oil route. Pat

[TimNZ]

Ah, I think you are asking why they use two piece axles instead of a flanged axle, like everybody else ?

Tradition and cost. It's cheaper for them to make a two piece setup. IMO a one piece flanged axle is better.

A fully floating axle is determined by how it's suspended by the hub bearings, not whether the axle is flanged or two piece ;)
eg. a single row bearing, as used in the rear of coiler Patrols is a semi-floating axle as part of the vehicle weight is borne by the axle. ie, you can't withdraw the axle without the hub and wheels falling off as there is no stub axle.

A full floating axle uses spaced bearings between the stub axle and hub and you can remove the axle independently of the hub and wheels and still use the vehicle, tow it, etc. the axles bear no vehicle weight.



Yeah, that's what I meant!! :) Two piece axles.

I'd like to fit aftermarket axles, or at least decent drive flanges, but the car is still under warranty. I can't even convert it to oil lubricated :( When ever LR fit new drive flanges, which at the moment is about every 10000kms, they loctite the crap out of the drive flange/axle flange to stop it moving. This works great for about 9000kms, then it lets go and the dreaded clonk - clonk returns.

I just wondered if there was a real good reason to make them a two piece setup, but as always it seems the mighty dollar, (or pound), dictates how it has to be.

Cheers,

Tim

[weeds]

i still don't understand why they are loctiting the drive flanges or what they are trying to achieve

if you upgrade your drive flanges you will not effect the warranty on the rest of the car.........and i would have thought drive flanges would last longer than 10k

are they covering the drive flanges under warranty? maybe they should use some grease

[TimNZ]

Hi Weeds, the dealer has told me that they use loctite to stop movement between the splines of the axle and the drive flange to stop them wearing. The dealers are getting awful picky about warranty now and I don't want to risk it, they have been replacing the flanges under warranty so it's not a big issue.

I just wondered why LR insist on using a two piece axle setup if they are just going to loctite it together anyway???

Tim

[isuzurover]

I find it very strange they are using loctite rather than grease. But it seems they are the directives from Land Rover...


Here is the issue.
Ref: 51/01/98/NAS
Issue: 1
Date: 05/12/00


Click Noise from Rear Axle Area

AFFECTED VEHICLE RANGE:

Hub/Axle Shaft
Range Rover (LP) Up to YA434637

Differential Pinion Flange
Range Rover (LP) Up to YA435750
Discovery II (LT) Up to YA260194
Up to XA907212

SITUATION:

REAR AXLE CLICKING NOISE

When moving the gear selector lever from the "D" (drive) position to "R" (reverse) or from "R to "D" a clicking noise may be heard from the rear axle area. The noise may be the result of movement between the axle shaft spline and the drive flange. The differential flange to pinion spline can exhibit the same symptoms.

RESOLUTION:

NOTE: This TIB supersedes and replaces the information contained in TIB 51/01/98/NAS SECURE AXLE SHAFT SPLINE TO HUB JOINT

When a customer complains of these symptoms, or if the axle is apart for other work, Range Rover vehicles prior to the above VIN should have the axle shaft spline-to-hub joints secured using Loctite 648. Apply the Loctite using the procedure outlined below.

The rear differential flange to pinion spline for Range Rover and Discovery Series II models up to the above VINs can be corrected for a "click" sound with assembly using Loctite 648 also. When a vehicle after the above VINs is disassembled for repair, Loctite 648 should be used as part of the assembly process.

PARTS INFORMATION:

CDU1534L Stake Nut Qty. 2
NY116041L Nyloc nut Qty 1 Rear Differential flange RR up to VA37071
FS112301P Bolt Qty 1 Rear differential flange

Locally Sourced:

^ Loctite 648

WARRANTY CLAIMS:

64.15.01 Time 1.15 each side Range Rover only
Rear hub installation with Loctite

51.15.36 Time 0.55 Range Rover
Differential flange installation with Loctite

51.20.01 Time 0.50 Discover Series II
Differential flange installation with Loctite

FAULT CODE: G

Normal warranty policy and procedures apply

REPAIR PROCEDURE

NOTE: Loctite has been applied to Discovery II rear hub splines since the introduction of the model. Should a Discovery Series II rear hub be dismantled for any reason, regardless of VIN, Loctite 648 should be used during assembly as detailed below.

CLICKING NOISE FROM REAR AXLE SHAFT TO HUB SPLINE

CAUTION: Care must be exercised when disassembling the axle assemblies to avoid damage to the oil seal.

1. Refer to WSM Section 64.15.01 and disassemble rear axle.

2. Remove axle shaft from hub assembly to expose shaft splines.

3. Thoroughly clean & degrease the shaft and flange spline.

CAUTION: Ensure that only the spline area is covered when applying the Loctite 648. Ensure that from this stage the repair can be completed without delay so that work is completed within Loctite 648 cure time.






4. Apply Loctite 648 to the shaft spline taking care not to coat beyond the spline area. (Figure 1)

5. Reassemble shaft to flange assembly.

6. Install new stake-nut (CDU1534).

7. Tighten the nut to initial torque of 100 Nm (75 lbf. ft.).

CAUTION: Exercise care to avoid damage to the oil seal during axle assembly process.

8. Carefully refit hub and shaft assembly to axle case.

9. Install tires and lower vehicle to the ground.

NOTE: The torque value given in the next step is increased over the value in the Workshop Manual.

10. Torque stake-nut to 340 Nm (250 lbf. ft.) and stake the nut.

11. Allow the Loctite 2 hours to cure before driving the vehicle.


CLICKING NOISE FROM REAR DIFFERENTIAL FLANGE TO PINION SPLINE:

CAUTION: Care must be exercised when removing the flange to avoid damage to the oil seal.

1. Refer to Workshop Manual repair number 51.20.01 and remove pinion flange taking care not to damage the seal.

2. With pinion flange removed, thoroughly clean and degrease the pinion shaft and flange spline.

NOTE: Ensure that from this stage the repair can be completed without delay so that work is completed within Loctite 648 cure time.






3. Apply Loctite 648 to the pinion shaft spline ensuring that only the spline area is coated. ("B" in Figure 2)

CAUTION: Range Rover vehicles up to VIN VA370719 have pinion flanges secured with a nut. Later vehicles use a flange bolt, (refer to Figure 2). It is essential that each fastener type be tightened to the correct torque as specified below.

4. If pinion flange is secured by a bolt, install flange and tighten the bolt to 100 Nm (73.8 lbf.ft.).

5. If pinion flange is secured with a nut, install flange and tighten the nut to 135 Nm (99.5 lbf.ft.).

6. Allow 2 hours for the Loctite to cure before driving vehicle.

[djam1]

I am not suggesting that this is a good idea but we ran a Series 2 for over 20 years with the flanges welded to the axles with no issues.

[Blknight.aus]

fully floating axles are used because they are the best solution (as opposed to non, 1/4, semi or half and 3/4 floating axles)

The reason the landy setup is better than the toyota setup is as follows.


you can change and adjust the wheel bearings without loosing any diff oil or exposing the axle tube.
If you break an axle you can take the existing axle out (whats left of it) and put the cover back on without having to carry spare parts and without leaving a damaged axle bit kicking around inside.
it allows parts commonality. the same bit works front and rear.
you dont have to have a complicated system invovling cone washers spring washers and correct torquing (you should always torque correctly) to prevent any bearing float in the wheel bearings from "yawing" the drive axle this means you can easily run 0 preload (or even slight endfloat) in the wheel bearings and get a better life out of them.
have you ever tried to get the axle end off of a toymota thats torqued the axle and has locked the splines into the side gear of the diff?


the are reasons that the toymota setup is better than the landie setup but thats not for discussion here as it would require me to think that something toyota is better than something landy. (aint gunna happen)


(typing and editing sucks tonight so this ones been edited to make it read like something englishish.)

[PAT303]

The other trouble with toyota is if the wheel bearing fails and damages the stub axle the whole diff housing needs to be replaced as it is one piece disc to disc.I would grease the flanges. Pat