Does this look like the right stuff? (EGT)

[dullbird]

Hi Guys I know someone on here brought the stuff from this company....
for there EGT display.

I contacted the company some time ago asking if they did there displays in blue..(just so I could keep it in with the rest of the dash lights)

He got back to me today looks like that have done it so you can get them in blue now:)

So my question is as I dont know a lot about these sorts of things

is this the right unit
Automobile Multimeter for EGT, Boost, Blue [SYL-1813B] - $58.50 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry (http://www.auberins.com/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=139)

and is this the right probe (which I'm assuming will tap into the egr blanking plate)
EGT sensor with NPT thread [TC-KEGT-NPT] - $36.00 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry (http://www.auberins.com/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=69)

Dont want to buy the wrong bits:eek::D

[B92 8NW]

Good to see they have blue now. I had the red one in my last discovery and the light was too aggressive at night. Though it seems these new models have a dimming function which the old ones didn't.

[isuzurover]

Looks the same as I have (except for the blue)

[brianwood]

Does anyone know where I can get the K type thermocouple probe which is long enough for the 300tdi EGR blanking plate spot?
I think soemone said it needs to be in excess of 45mm to get in the gas stream...

[dullbird]

Does anyone know where I can get the K type thermocouple probe which is long enough for the 300tdi EGR blanking plate spot?
I think soemone said it needs to be in excess of 45mm to get in the gas stream...

So I'm guessing that the one I put up is wrong then?:eek:
as thats where mine will be going.

[dullbird]

here is a link to the K-type

Temp Sensors, Thermocouple : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry (http://www.auberins.com/index.php'main_page=index&cPath=3)

So is this correct what brian says? am I looking at the wrong one?

[steveG]

Hi DB.
I've got the original P/N that you posted, the weld-in one (you've probably already seen the tutorial I did on it).

Since then I've read other posts - as Brian is referring to - that suggest its not long enough to reach the gas stream.
I haven't had a chance to look into it further as I've been overseas for work and busy dropping the auto out of my disco once I got back.

Your post prompted me to email Auberins to see whether they can do a straight probe the same diameter/spec as the weld-in one.

I'm pretty sure that the weld-in one will have started life straight and then been bent.

If you want to hold off a day or so before ordering I should have a response from them.

Steve.

[dullbird]

Hi DB.
I've got the original P/N that you posted, the weld-in one (you've probably already seen the tutorial I did on it).

Since then I've read other posts - as Brian is referring to - that suggest its not long enough to reach the gas stream.
I haven't had a chance to look into it further as I've been overseas for work and busy dropping the auto out of my disco once I got back.

Your post prompted me to email Auberins to see whether they can do a straight probe the same diameter/spec as the weld-in one.

I'm pretty sure that the weld-in one will have started life straight and then been bent.

If you want to hold off a day or so before ordering I should have a response from them.

Steve.

ok mate thanks will do......however I was looking at the one that could be tapped in, is the weld in one better? I think tapping it in would be easier...also means when the car goes you can remove it easily and just put a small bolt in there...I'm guessing

Oh and yes it was your tutorial that prompted me to look at there site and ask the question......however I couldn't remember at the time who did it when I was searching for the stuff

[steveG]

From what I can work out from the website, the weld-in, tapped, and clamp on versions all use the same thermocouple (3/16" diameter, exposed tip, temp range etc), so their response should apply to the tap-in one also.

I haven't found any others on the site that are the same - the long ones seem to be thinner diameter (4mm IIRC).

Just for the record, I've found my current setup to be very responsive - it doesn't react like its sitting in a pocket of low temp gas, and to be honest I'm not 100% sure that a longer probe is necessary (although I understand the reason why it could be). Even the probe on the Thermoguard site appears as though it would only have about the same protrusion as my current one.
What I would really like to do is to run the 2 probes with different lengths side by side in the blanking plate, and see if there is a real difference in what they sense.

Steve

[PAT303]

I run one of them and I angled the probe slightly to get it into a better position and it works well and is very responsive.You can also shorten the fitting by cutting off a few threads which will give you another 1/8 inch but I don't think it's needed. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

thats what you want dullbird, Ive fitted a couple of those units to TD5's (easy job to do with the egr removal mod.

[dullbird]

thats what you want dullbird, Ive fitted a couple of those units to TD5's (easy job to do with the egr removal mod.


So you dont think there is an issue with the length of the prob dave?

[Blknight.aus]

not in the TD5 when you do the EGR removal mod as it bolts nicely into the blanking plate once youve tapped it and providing you dont screw it down too deeply sits about where I'd like to put it. (but its really only reading the flow from pot #1 not the overall average of all pots)

havent yet had the cause to be playing with the puma donk. and as with all things if you leave the engine stock in theory its not possable to generate EGT;s that are fatal to the engine.

[dullbird]

not in the TD5 when you do the EGR removal mod as it bolts nicely into the blanking plate once youve tapped it and providing you dont screw it down too deeply sits about where I'd like to put it. (but its really only reading the flow from pot #1 not the overall average of all pots)

havent yet had the cause to be playing with the puma donk. and as with all things if you leave the engine stock in theory its not possable to generate EGT;s that are fatal to the engine.

naaahhhh this is for my disco........thats why I said it will go into the blanked plate of the egr.

fitting it as the pump has had a tweak and is or has started to bellow out black smoke up steep!! hills under load when it changes down to 2nd.

So fitting it to keep a check on what the temps are doing...its going back to the garage in the near future to put it on the machine again and back it off a tad.......

[bblaze]

Hi DB
My probe is only about 45mm long, I tapped the thread into the blanking plate at an angle so the probe went nearly straight in. My gauge responsed as I would expect, nice steady rise when the foot is hard down uphill, lift the foot and it falls nicely and maintains a steady temp when crusin.
cheers
blaze

[Blknight.aus]

an easy fit to the TDi, I think you may even find that on the back end of the intake manifold theres an unused unfiished casting point that should give you a good sensor location near pot 4. I suspect that it was intended for the fitment of a heatshield.

[steveG]

I got an email back from Auberins - they have a new probe with a straight section 45mm longer than the ones on the website.
I removed my probe and measured the distance from the outside of the fitting to the back side of the manifold - roughly 120mm
The new probe should give 80mm protrusion, which should put right into the middle of the gas stream.
As soon as I get a P/N or instructions on how to order I'll post them up.

Steve

[dullbird]

Thanks mate...looking at buying mine next pay day..

So some part numbers would be good:)

[Rosscoe68]

Thermocouple with 1/4" Type K Probe Chromel/Alumel - eBay Meters, Test Equipment, Electrical, Business, Industrial. (end time 06-Oct-09 16:36:56 AEDST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Thermocouple-with-1-4-Type-K-Probe-Chromel-Alumel_W0QQitemZ200388073355QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_ B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment?hash=item2ea80f578b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_3122wt_939)

[Bush65]

naaahhhh this is for my disco........thats why I said it will go into the blanked plate of the egr.

fitting it as the pump has had a tweak and is or has started to bellow out black smoke up steep!! hills under load when it changes down to 2nd.

So fitting it to keep a check on what the temps are doing...its going back to the garage in the near future to put it on the machine again and back it off a tad.......
If you want to see what the real EGT at the turbo you need to have the probe extend out of the cast in pocket for the egr and into the gas stream. Also not touching against the side of the manifold - so position and angle in blanking plate is important.

The small diameter probes generally respond quicker, but you need to see the manufactures spec sheets to be sure. 1/8" respond quicker than 1/4" - the one you listed was 3/16" so probably not too bad.

Some people see the numbers in the display changing and assume their probe responds quickly - but this is pie in sky stuff.

Response is measured as the time for the reading to reach the true value when the temperature is changed by a particular step value - not for display reading to change from one incorrect number to another incorrect number.

As you increase the load on the engine the egt will climb. IMHO keep an eye on how rapidly it climbs and if it is approaching say 650C quickly and there is still a good way to the top of a hill, then it is time to ease off with the right foot or grab a lower gear to get engine revs back up.

Had the pump been tweaked for some time and only recently starting to blow smoke. If you are blowing smoke under load, then egt is going to be up.

It is more likely that your not getting as much air as before, than for the pump calibration to have changed.

However, when a pump is tweaked, it needs to be checked with a good load on the engine to be sure that egt will not get out of hand later. Egt will not get anywhere near as high on a steep hill when the vehicle is empty, compared to pulling a trailer or with a big load of camping gear, extra fuel and water, or the like.

[dullbird]

If you want to see what the real EGT at the turbo you need to have the probe extend out of the cast in pocket for the egr and into the gas stream. Also not touching against the side of the manifold - so position and angle in blanking plate is important.

The small diameter probes generally respond quicker, but you need to see the manufactures spec sheets to be sure. 1/8" respond quicker than 1/4" - the one you listed was 3/16" so probably not too bad.

Some people see the numbers in the display changing and assume their probe responds quickly - but this is pie in sky stuff.

Response is measured as the time for the reading to reach the true value when the temperature is changed by a particular step value - not for display reading to change from one incorrect number to another incorrect number.

As you increase the load on the engine the egt will climb. IMHO keep an eye on how rapidly it climbs and if it is approaching say 650C quickly and there is still a good way to the top of a hill, then it is time to ease off with the right foot or grab a lower gear to get engine revs back up.


Had the pump been tweaked for some time and only recently starting to blow smoke. If you are blowing smoke under load, then egt is going to be up.

It is more likely that your not getting as much air as before, than for the pump calibration to have changed.

However, when a pump is tweaked, it needs to be checked with a good load on the engine to be sure that egt will not get out of hand later. Egt will not get anywhere near as high on a steep hill when the vehicle is empty, compared to pulling a trailer or with a big load of camping gear, extra fuel and water, or the like.

Hi John.....the pump has been tweaked for a couple of months.....and it was only tweaked to put the air fuel ratio back in to factory spec because the car was running very very lean...(I have a slightly bigger intercooler)

its hard to say about it blowing smoke as the heavy smoke I'm talking about only ever rears its head climbing up the big hill on the M4 going into the blue mountains in actual fact its only really worse coming out of the mountains as that must be steeper that way.

going up the mountain it puffs a little smoke on a gear change its not until getting towards the top as the car is doing around 80 that it looses enough power to have the car drop to second....and then everyone put your masks on because that is when it bellows smoke!!

My guy at the garage said to bring the car back in and he will check the pump again as before I took it home last time he idd say keep an eye on it as sometimes the adjustment may slip.

I figured the massive smoke cloud would be due to EGT's thats really the only reason why I want to fit one...but like I said bove I dont really get smoke anywhere else.

Now people have said to me smoke with a pump tweak is normal....I dont believe this is normal that's why I want to keep a check on the temps.
I don't want to stress my engine and end its life prematurely.

[steveG]

Auberins will have the longer probes made in about 10 days. They don't have a part no. as yet, but will email me the info once they have them.

Steve

[Bush65]

Hi John.....the pump has been tweaked for a couple of months.....and it was only tweaked to put the air fuel ratio back in to factory spec because the car was running very very lean...(I have a slightly bigger intercooler)

...
Diesels run lean, the leaner they are the cooler they will run and the more your engine will love you. Smoke ratio is approx 18:1, so around 22:1 a/f ratio at maximum load is good.

As load decreases air fuel ratio can go well over 100:1 - absolutely nothing to worry about.

Some modern computer controlled diesels do control a/f ratio as part of the emission system.

...
going up the mountain it puffs a little smoke on a gear change its not until getting towards the top as the car is doing around 80 that it looses enough power to have the car drop to second....and then everyone put your masks on because that is when it bellows smoke!!

...
Too much fuel or not enough air!

Altitude/elevation reduces air quantity - turbos increase the atmospheric pressure by a ratio, so as the barometric/atmospheric pressure drops, the boost pressure will also fall. Compressor maps for turbos give pressure ratio on the vertical axis - boost pressure is atmospheric pressure times pressure ratio minus atm pressure.

What are the engine revs after it kicks back to second?

Do you know what your boost pressure is before/after it kicks back?

Hoses have been known restrict air flow due to damage that is not apparent with an external visual examination. Oil accumulation in inter cooler can also restrict air.

...

My guy at the garage said to bring the car back in and he will check the pump again as before I took it home last time he idd say keep an eye on it as sometimes the adjustment may slip.

...
I find that really hard to take seriously!


...

I figured the massive smoke cloud would be due to EGT's thats really the only reason why I want to fit one...but like I said bove I dont really get smoke anywhere else.

Now people have said to me smoke with a pump tweak is normal....I dont believe this is normal that's why I want to keep a check on the temps.
I don't want to stress my engine and end its life prematurely.
Smoke is not due to egt, but egt will be increased if you have black smoke with your right foot down.

Black smoke is incomplete combustion of fuel. Nearly always due to enough air to burn the fuel, but could be due to poor atomisation from a faulty injector (but 300Tdi's don't have many injector problems).

Tweaking the pump can involve up to 4 adjustments.

Some smoke can be tolerable, as long as it clears reasonably quickly (when boost pressure increases).

To get boost to build sooner, more fuel is required - the turbine needs the exhaust gasses to drive the compressor.

One adjustment, the torx screw adjustment in the top of the boost compensator adjusts fuel when there is no boost - screwing this down gives more fuel to help get the turbo going.

The screw under the spring below the diaphragm in the boost compensator will increase/decrease fuel quantity as the boost pressure increases.

Rotating the conical fuel pin is used to adjust fuel rate at maximum boost pressure. But will increase/decrease fuel across the full range (zero to max boost).

Most instructions I see give adjustment procedures in the order I have above. But IMHO it is back to front - rotate fuel pin 1st, then adjust spring pressure if required, then the torx screw.

The 4th adjustment is the maximum fuel rate screw on the rear of the pump - unless you have an upgraded turbo you shouldn't normally need to adjust this.

The purpose of the boost compensator is to reduce fuel when the boost pressure drops.

High egt is bad for the engine - piston melting etc.

Increased boost pressure will increase air quantity and lower egt.

The increased performance which comes with boost presure will result in an insignificant increase in stress of engine - this is due to the part of the cycle when it occurs. The majority of stress is due to inertial loads due to reversing the direction of the reciprocating parts. The inertial loads increase with engine revs - power increase from turbo does not increase revs.

[dullbird]

Diesels run lean, the leaner they are the cooler they will run and the more your engine will love you. Smoke ratio is approx 18:1, so around 22:1 a/f ratio at maximum load is good.

As load decreases air fuel ratio can go well over 100:1 - absolutely nothing to worry about.

Some modern computer controlled diesels do control a/f ratio as part of the emission system.

Too much fuel or not enough air!

Altitude/elevation reduces air quantity - turbos increase the atmospheric pressure by a ratio, so as the barometric/atmospheric pressure drops, the boost pressure will also fall. Compressor maps for turbos give pressure ratio on the vertical axis - boost pressure is atmospheric pressure times pressure ratio minus atm pressure.


What are the engine revs after it kicks back to second?
3000

Do you know what your boost pressure is before/after it kicks back?
No I don't run a boost gauge

Hoses have been known restrict air flow due to damage that is not apparent with an external visual examination. Oil accumulation in inter cooler can also restrict air.
Hoses are probably 2 year old they are silicone.....and last time we had the hoses off there was only a very very small amount in the end of the hose like a dusty light covering

I find that really hard to take seriously!


Smoke is not due to egt, but egt will be increased if you have black smoke with your right foot down.

Black smoke is incomplete combustion of fuel. Nearly always due to enough air to burn the fuel, but could be due to poor atomisation from a faulty injector (but 300Tdi's don't have many injector problems).

Tweaking the pump can involve up to 4 adjustments.

Some smoke can be tolerable, as long as it clears reasonably quickly (when boost pressure increases).

To get boost to build sooner, more fuel is required - the turbine needs the exhaust gasses to drive the compressor.

One adjustment, the torx screw adjustment in the top of the boost compensator adjusts fuel when there is no boost - screwing this down gives more fuel to help get the turbo going.

The screw under the spring below the diaphragm in the boost compensator will increase/decrease fuel quantity as the boost pressure increases.

Rotating the conical fuel pin is used to adjust fuel rate at maximum boost pressure. But will increase/decrease fuel across the full range (zero to max boost).

Most instructions I see give adjustment procedures in the order I have above. But IMHO it is back to front - rotate fuel pin 1st, then adjust spring pressure if required, then the torx screw.

The 4th adjustment is the maximum fuel rate screw on the rear of the pump - unless you have an upgraded turbo you shouldn't normally need to adjust this.

The purpose of the boost compensator is to reduce fuel when the boost pressure drops.

High egt is bad for the engine - piston melting etc.

Increased boost pressure will increase air quantity and lower egt.

The increased performance which comes with boost presure will result in an insignificant increase in stress of engine - this is due to the part of the cycle when it occurs. The majority of stress is due to inertial loads due to reversing the direction of the reciprocating parts. The inertial loads increase with engine revs - power increase from turbo does not increase revs.

Perhaps I should bring the car to you for adjustment John:D

[Bush65]

Ok, if it is blowing a lot of smoke in 2nd at 3000 rpm, then egt is bound to be very high and there is a problem that you need to address.

You need to look at both, the lack of air and the over fuelling.

[dullbird]

Ok, if it is blowing a lot of smoke in 2nd at 3000 rpm, then egt is bound to be very high and there is a problem that you need to address.

You need to look at both,
the lack of air and the over fuelling.

Will get the garage to check the fuel to air ratio again.....

I will check my hoses and I will check my intercooler..

would it have anything to do with my centre muffler being removed?

[Bush65]

Air/Fuel ratio is going to change wildly as engine revs and accelerator position change.

It would only matter at maximum load and foot flat to floor - need a dyno for that.

[dullbird]

Any updates on the part number for the new probe that is supposed to fit better?

[Leo109]

Diesels run lean, the leaner they are the cooler they will run and the more your engine will love you. Smoke ratio is approx 18:1, so around 22:1 a/f ratio at maximum load is good.


As load decreases air fuel ratio can go well over 100:1 - absolutely nothing to worry about.
...

Most instructions I see give adjustment procedures in the order I have above. But IMHO it is back to front - rotate fuel pin 1st, then adjust spring pressure if required, then the torx screw.

The 4th adjustment is the maximum fuel rate screw on the rear of the pump - unless you have an upgraded turbo you shouldn't normally need to adjust this.

The purpose of the boost compensator is to reduce fuel when the boost pressure drops.

High egt is bad for the engine - piston melting etc.

Increased boost pressure will increase air quantity and lower egt.


Hi Dullbird & others,

Wish I'd come across this thread earlier. Bushie is spot on! It's pretty meaningless to talk about air/fuel ratios in diesels. The only time the term has any relevance is at full load & full throttle.

From previous posts, Dullbird, you seem quite mechanically savvy but I suspect like most people who've gained their mechanical knowledge with petrol engines you may not be fully aware of the differences with diesels (no offence intended). Could I suggest you have a look at http://www.thermoguard.com.au/Ttalk1R3.pdf (http://www.thermoguard.com.au/Ttalk1R3.pdf) and the others articles on this page?

Regarding the pump adjustment process, again I agree with Bushie about the order of adjustments. Some notes I wrote on this topic are floating around on this site somewhere but I've never been able to find them. Please PM me if you like a copy.

About EGT sensing on the 300Tdi, I've measured EGT simultaneously at both the No.1 cylinder branch and in the EGR 'pocket'. While the No.1 cyl probe responded slightly faster there was little difference in the peak temperatures, so I've concluded that measurement in the EGR pocket is quite adequate. I think it's erroneous the think of the EGR pocket as a spot of 'still, cool gas'. The exhaust manifold is a violently turbulent place and I believe the EGR pocket does give a quite representative sample of the exhaust gas.

You might also like to have a look at ThermoGuard Instruments (http://www.thermoguard.com.au/operate.html) for some info on using your EGT gauge once installed.

Hope this helps.
Ian

[dullbird]

Hi Dullbird & others,

Wish I'd come across this thread earlier. Bushie is spot on! It's pretty meaningless to talk about air/fuel ratios in diesels. The only time the term has any relevance is at full load & full throttle.


From previous posts, Dullbird, you seem quite mechanically savvy but I suspect like most people who've gained their mechanical knowledge with petrol engines you may not be fully aware of the differences with diesels (no offence intended). Could I suggest you have a look at http://www.thermoguard.com.au/Ttalk1R3.pdf (http://www.thermoguard.com.au/Ttalk1R3.pdf) and the others articles on this page?

Regarding the pump adjustment process, again I agree with Bushie about the order of adjustments. Some notes I wrote on this topic are floating around on this site somewhere but I've never been able to find them. Please PM me if you like a copy.

About EGT sensing on the 300Tdi, I've measured EGT simultaneously at both the No.1 cylinder branch and in the EGR 'pocket'. While the No.1 cyl probe responded slightly faster there was little difference in the peak temperatures, so I've concluded that measurement in the EGR pocket is quite adequate. I think it's erroneous the think of the EGR pocket as a spot of 'still, cool gas'. The exhaust manifold is a violently turbulent place and I believe the EGR pocket does give a quite representative sample of the exhaust gas.

You might also like to have a look at ThermoGuard Instruments (http://www.thermoguard.com.au/operate.html) for some info on using your EGT gauge once installed.

Hope this helps.
Ian

No offence taken:).....I'am still very much learning about all these things. Thats why I ask so many questions.......I ask questions based on my own common sense and what makes sense to me and not always knowledge and experience....so sometimes it does make sense and sometimes its doesn't. but its how I help myself to understand, as sometimes I get lost in a lot of terminology.

Unfortunately people have seen this in the past as me being purely argumentative...which is very far from it. I just sit down with the knowledge that I have acquired (some times its false and sometimes not) and think up of different scenarios and then ask more questions. Again this helps me to learn and understand.

I have learnt an INCREDIBLE amount from this site and from the people I hang out with and talk to......
So thank you everyone!!!!!

Oh and thank you leo for the links:)

[Blknight.aus]

on a similar topic...

one of the guys at work bought in a nissan with very similar symptoms.

turns out that the boost compensator plunger had gotten stuck in the full down position meaning that the engine had max fuel available all the time and the turbo was somewhat rooted not making full boost. Smoked like a chimney unless the loud pedal was used gently.

[dullbird]

on a similar topic...

one of the guys at work bought in a nissan with very similar symptoms.


turns out that the boost compensator plunger had gotten stuck in the full down position meaning that the engine had max fuel available all the time and the turbo was somewhat rooted not making full boost. Smoked like a chimney unless the loud pedal was used gently.

Thats the only thing about mine though is it doesn't smoke

well it does on start up and I get a small puff when flooring it but then it runs ok.....its literally when the car is going up the steepest part of the M4 coming over the mountains its on the steepest bit in third it starts to lose speed quickly then then at 3000 it kicks down too 2nd and the smok just ungulfs the entire road. I guess all I can do is ask the garage to back it off a fraction..either that or be prepared to climb that bit of road at 40..

thats the stupid thing about it love the way the car is running at the moment on road got much better response its quick off the line can happily pull out and over take on the motorway without having to really think about it and plan it between gaps:D...this is the bit I don't want to loose. but I guess I have to if I don't want to do risk premature wear and do a head gasket.

[Blknight.aus]

that can also be a symptom of a sticking advance unit along side of overfueling.


If the injection timing doesnt advance at high engine RPMS you can wind up not buring all the fuel. on a standard pump setup it usually turns up as a slight loss of power with smoke at full noise. with an overtweaked pump it shows up as buckets of smoke.

[dullbird]

that can also be a symptom of a sticking advance unit along side of overfueling.



If the injection timing doesnt advance at high engine RPMS you can wind up not buring all the fuel. on a standard pump setup it usually turns up as a slight loss of power with smoke at full noise. with an overtweaked pump it shows up as buckets of smoke.

how can that be rectified?

[Blknight.aus]

It may also pay to get the injectors pattern checked but back to the point if thats what it is and not just a case of plain old overfuelling.....

overhaul the pump.

[dullbird]

if thats what it is and not just a case of plain old overfuelling.....


It may also pay to get the injectors pattern checked

overhaul the pump.

mmm that sounds expensive.

I would say its a case of over fuelling only because I never had a problem before the pump was changed after the timing belt was done

[Bush65]

It probably wouldn't hurt to advance the timing a little.

JustinC recommends this for the 300Tdi - he has posted several times.

From memory (but don't trust mine after so many sleeps) I think he recommended 0.3mm plunger lift.

[dullbird]

so would that be advancing the timing on the injector pump? I wouldn't have a clue ow to advance timing neither would Ian.....

just can't afford to put the car in the garage at the moment just for a tickle:(

[Bush65]

Thats the only thing about mine though is it doesn't smoke

well it does on start up and I get a small puff when flooring it but then it runs ok.....its literally when the car is going up the steepest part of the M4 coming over the mountains its on the steepest bit in third it starts to lose speed quickly then then at 3000 it kicks down too 2nd and the smok just ungulfs the entire road. I guess all I can do is ask the garage to back it off a fraction..either that or be prepared to climb that bit of road at 40..

thats the stupid thing about it love the way the car is running at the moment on road got much better response its quick off the line can happily pull out and over take on the motorway without having to really think about it and plan it between gaps:D...this is the bit I don't want to loose. but I guess I have to if I don't want to do risk premature wear and do a head gasket.
You have many different cases there.

1.
it does on start up This is normal - while the engine is cold it can't burn the fuel completely.

2.
a small puff when flooring it but then it runs ok This is most likely because the fuel is turned up and the turbo boost is low. The boost pressure rises as you accelerate to provide enough air to burn the fuel. Not worth worrying about - you could turn fuel down and accept performance loss, or fit a variable geometry turbo.

3.
going up the steepest part of the M4 coming over the mountains See previous posts. You have too much fuel or not enough air. The turbo should be producing maximum boost in this case. Either the boost pressure at the inlet manifold is not what it should be (then fix the air problem), or the maximum fuel adjustment on your pump is turned up to high (adjust pump). I think if it was faulty injectors or timing advance mechanism in pump, you would make smoke in other cases.

4.
on road got much better response ... can happily pull out and over take In these cases your turbo will not be producing maximum boost. This is a different fuel adjustment of the boost compensator on the pump (not the maximum fuel adjustment).

5.
its quick off the line The turbo is producing little or no boost. This is a different fuel adjustment again of the boost compensator on the pump.

The maximum fuel screw is on the rear of the pump near the fuel lines that go to the 4 injectors. If the mechanic adjusted this screw, it should be backed off. If the mechanic did not adjust this screw and it is in the stock position, then the rotation adjustment of the fuel pin needs to be changed to reduce the fuelling at maximum boost.

Your performance off the line (5. above) and at low boost (4. above) don't have to suffer. These are 2 different adjustments of the boost compensator to maximum fuel.

If the maximum boost, fuel pin adjustment is reduced, this will also reduce fuel at no boost and at low boost. This is why I gave ( in an earlier post) the order that the boost compensator should be adjusted.

Get the maximum boost fuel correct first. Then adjust the compensator for low boost fuel, then adjust for no boost (3 different adjustments of the boost compensator). As I also said most internet posts about adjusting the boost compensator have the order ar.. about.

[dullbird]

Hi John as always your posts are sooo informative....

Only one small issue, we wouldn't be confident enough I don't feel to play with something like this...this is why I got the garage to do it in the first place.

I don't know whether it would be considered rude...especially as I asked them to tickle the pump..due to the feeling of lack of performance after a timing belt change, that I can then go back and suggest that he has adjusted my pump totally wrong..

The guy that did it is a great guy and knows his stuff when it comes to landrovers (he said he has done a few pumps for people and they have been really happy) but that could mean anything I guess......but I do trust his advice and things he has done as he has worked my car from the day I owned it..well when I say worked done the bigger jobs that we have been unable to tackle due to tools or time or knowledge

When I told him what was happening he said to bring it back and he will take another look...

maybe I can approach it then

I actually asked Ian yesterday as soon as we have 5 mins to pull the intercooler out and clean and inspect hoses while we are at it.......we were going to do it today and then forgot after spending a rediculous time at bob janes this morning...then I got home and started packing and I just totally forgot. (try and get it done tomorrow after we drop the trailer and things off down at picton).

at least then I can eliminate that

[Bush65]

so would that be advancing the timing on the injector pump? I wouldn't have a clue ow to advance timing neither would Ian.....

just can't afford to put the car in the garage at the moment just for a tickle:(
The adjustment is in the pulley connected to the pump shaft that the timing belt drives. The pulley hub has locking screws that are loosened to allow the pulley to be rotated to set the timing. There is a small cover in line with the pump, on front of the timing belt cover. Remove the small cover to get at the lock screws - but space is tight there.

You need a special adapter and a dial indicator gauge. The adapter screws into the distributor head of the pump so the dial indicator can measure the position of the pump plunger.

It is best left to someone who has the adapter and experience.

The automatic timing advance that Dave was talking about is in the lower section of the injection pump. This is something else again to advance the timing automatically when engine revs (actually pump revs) increase. It is hydraulically operated by pressure from a vane pump in the front section of the injection pump.

[Bush65]

Hi John as always your posts are sooo informative....

Only one small issue, we wouldn't be confident enough I don't feel to play with something like this...this is why I got the garage to do it in the first place.

I don't know whether it would be considered rude...especially as I asked them to tickle the pump..due to the feeling of lack of performance after a timing belt change, that I can then go back and suggest that he has adjusted my pump totally wrong..

The guy that did it is a great guy and knows his stuff when it comes to landrovers (he said he has done a few pumps for people and they have been really happy) but that could mean anything I guess......but I do trust his advice and things he has done as he has worked my car from the day I owned it..well when I say worked done the bigger jobs that we have been unable to tackle due to tools or time or knowledge

When I told him what was happening he said to bring it back and he will take another look...

maybe I can approach it then

I actually asked Ian yesterday as soon as we have 5 mins to pull the intercooler out and clean and inspect hoses while we are at it.......we were going to do it today and then forgot after spending a rediculous time at bob janes this morning...then I got home and started packing and I just totally forgot. (try and get it done tomorrow after we drop the trailer and things off down at picton).

at least then I can eliminate that
Really he has not necessarily adjusted it wrong.

The problem is that the only way to know if the maximum fuel rate is too high/low, is to put the maximum load on the engine.

This can be done with a dyno, but if you don't have a dyno, then you have to suck it and see. You need to put a load on the vehicle on the steepest hill you can find.

That hill in the mountains for example. Ideally adjust it at the bottom of the hill, then drive up it and measure the exhaust gas temp.

Then if EGT is below acceptable max. increase fuel some more and repeat test. If EGT is too high, reduce fuel.

This adjustment is simple and only requires a flat blade screwdriver and EGT gauge. Will take 1 or 2 minutes max. each time to make the adjustment (not including time for testing).

Your mechanic would probably have limited ability to put the maximum load on your engine (I'm assuming he doesn't have a dyno).

Once the maximum fuel is set correctly, so egt does not go too high, then carry out the other adjustments.

I can tell you how to do this yourself - or read Ian's instructions.

Since it is only a problem when you climb that hill, there is no need to do it now. Wait until the EGT gauge is installed.

[dullbird]

Really he has not necessarily adjusted it wrong.

The problem is that the only way to know if the maximum fuel rate is too high/low, is to put the maximum load on the engine.

This can be done with a dyno, but if you don't have a dyno, then you have to suck it and see. You need to put a load on the vehicle on the steepest hill you can find.

That hill in the mountains for example. Ideally adjust it at the bottom of the hill, then drive up it and measure the exhaust gas temp.

Then if EGT is below acceptable max. increase fuel some more and repeat test. If EGT is too high, reduce fuel.

This adjustment is simple and only requires a flat blade screwdriver and EGT gauge. Will take 1 or 2 minutes max. each time to make the adjustment (not including time for testing).

Your mechanic would probably have limited ability to put the maximum load on your engine (I'm assuming he doesn't have a dyno).

Once the maximum fuel is set correctly, so egt does not go too high, then carry out the other adjustments.

I can tell you how to do this yourself - or read Ian's instructions.


Since it is only a problem when you climb that hill, there is no need to do it now. Wait until the EGT gauge is installed.

Funny you should say that I literally about 10mins ago was talking to Ian about the pump while making a cuppa and I said to him then I'm not going to change anything until I get the gauge fitted..that way I have something as a comparison.

Would it be really advisable to fit a boost gauge?....I never really wanted to before because they always look like something people take time to fit and then use for about 5 mins while making adjustment never to be looked at again:D....

if its not to complicated and not to expensive I would consider fitting one...but as i'm not going out of my way to tamper with things i guess I want to know whether or not its worth it. All I want to do with the car is things to prevent the big bux rolling out of my pocket...

I like to try and keep preventative maintenance up and the next two big things will be the head gasket and the gearbox I think so anything I can do to help prevent or catch things early I'm all for.

and I will fit a low coolant alarm another one of those things I keep meaning to buy for the last year but never seem to get around too:(...that alone will be a statement i will live to regret no doubt until I pull my finger out

[Blknight.aus]

yep boost gauges are worth their wieght if you're trying to milk the engine for economy..

[dullbird]

Why you drive to boost?

[Bush65]

Boost gauge will tell you if that area is as it should be. They don't have to be fitted permanently, so you may be able to borrow one. I never found a suitable place for a boost gauge in my disco.

The gauge can be Tee'd into the boost signal line between turbo and boost compensator on injection pump. Or there is a plug at the back of the inlet manifold - difficult to see because there is not much room between the manifold and firewall.

[Blknight.aus]

Why you drive to boost?

yep, if time isnt an issue but fuel is keeping an eye on the boost gauge will help you keep the engine in the "sweet spot" coupled with an EGT and all the other things you can do to help it along you can get some pretty good fuel savings.

[Bush65]

yep boost gauges are worth their wieght if you're trying to milk the engine for economy..
You could probably do similar with an EGT gauge - by driving to keep variation in temps small, i.e. not climbing rapidly.

[steveG]

Auberins will have the longer probes made in about 10 days. They don't have a part no. as yet, but will email me the info once they have them.

Steve

They now have the longer probes in stock.

EGT sensor with longer tip. [TC-KEGL] - $36.00 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry (http://www.auberins.com/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=145)

Steve

[dullbird]

They now have the longer probes in stock.

EGT sensor with longer tip. [TC-KEGL] - $36.00 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry (http://www.auberins.com/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=145)

Steve

Yes thanks steve me and the guy have actually kept in contact..he has put one aside for me as he now has run out of the blue gagues and is not getting them in until the end of the month...and I want to buy it all at the same time:)

[brianwood]

I've put one in my shopping cart too along with the blue guage. Waiting until stock arrives - apparently 5th November...

[PAT303]

Just on all this I'd like to add that I had the timing adjusted on my Tdi and it turned into a disaster.My engine has well over 400K on it and when the plunger lift was set to factory spec's,1.54mm it hammered like you wouldn't believe,so much so that I'm going the drop a bigend off and have a look to check for damage.On any older engine I think that it's better to let sleeping dogs lie and not play with anything as with my engine the settings are all out through wear so I can't set them to the marks.I would be happy to leave a ten year old plus engine alone and spend money on the important things like the cooling system as that is what LR engines need for long life.Dullbird has the puma been going OK?,I'm asking as I really need to make a choice as my old girl getting on and needs money spent on it or buy a new one. Pat

[dullbird]

Just on all this I'd like to add that I had the timing adjusted on my Tdi and it turned into a disaster.My engine has well over 400K on it and when the plunger lift was set to factory spec's,1.54mm it hammered like you wouldn't believe,so much so that I'm going the drop a bigend off and have a look to check for damage.On any older engine I think that it's better to let sleeping dogs lie and not play with anything as with my engine the settings are all out through wear so I can't set them to the marks.I would be happy to leave a ten year old plus engine alone and spend money on the important things like the cooling system as that is what LR engines need for long life.
Dullbird has the puma been going OK?,I'm asking as I really need to make a choice as my old girl getting on and needs money spent on it or buy a new one. Pat
Pat since the engine change and them sorting out the rear diff....the car hasn't missed a beat! we got niggly things like the drivers door handle coming lose and stuff but they are not a problem just a pain:)...

[PAT303]

Dullbird is the Puma a good step up from a Tdi coming from a womans perspective?,I'm asking as my partner doesn't like driving mine now as it bangs and clanks but she might like the puma as it's more user friendly and I really would like to buy one next year but I do want her to be comfortable driving it. Pat

[dullbird]

Dullbird is the Puma a good step up from a Tdi coming from a womans perspective?,I'm asking as my partner doesn't like driving mine now as it bangs and clanks but she might like the puma as it's more user friendly and I really would like to buy one next year but I do want her to be comfortable driving it. Pat


its a big step up from a TDI in comfort...speed, noise.
the clutch is much lighter also..something else she might like.

My advice to you would be to have her drive the TDI to the dealership and then have her jump straight into a puma for comparison test drive.

I drove a few Thousand k's last year in it and I would od it all over again.

the only thing I hate about the puma is the size of the steering wheel its too big IMHO

[spudfan]

Have had our Puma for about 18 months now. Prior to this our car was a 110 tdi of 1992 vintage. The moment we got the Puma home my wife got in and headed off in it. She has not driven the tdi since. I have asked her about the steering wheel and she says there is nothing wrong with it.She loves the Puma and has no negatives about the Puma. My wife has never driven a "normal" type car as we never had one. She is just going from a tdi to the Puma comparison wise.

[dullbird]

Have had our Puma for about 18 months now. Prior to this our car was a 110 tdi of 1992 vintage. The moment we got the Puma home my wife got in and headed off in it. She has not driven the tdi since.
I have asked her about the steering wheel and she says there is nothing wrong with it.She loves the Puma and has no negatives about the Puma. My wife has never driven a "normal" type car as we never had one. She is just going from a tdi to the Puma comparison wise.


I drive a disco though steering wheel is much much smaller:D