Skill required for use of non-synchro gearbox off road?

[sjd70]

I have been looking for a good SWB for a while. I like the series 2/2a but am a little inexperienced with non-synchro gearboxes.

I enjoy Fraser Island (in my Disco Tdi auto!) and other off road destinations and understand the theory of double de-clutching etc but I can see how difficult trying to do this quickly in a off road situation would/could be.

Is the answer just the correct gear selection in the first place and keep on going...?

Is it just practise and it becomes really easy?

Do you just crash the gears at the odd time where a gear change is required fast?

Do I just accept that a series three is better?? (or weaker??)

How easy is a non-synchro box off road compared to a series three?

Any input appreciated.

Sean

[pop058]

I have been looking for a good SWB for a while. I like the series 2/2a but am a little inexperienced with non-synchro gearboxes.

I enjoy Fraser Island (in my Disco Tdi auto!) and other off road destinations and understand the theory of double de-clutching etc but I can see how difficult trying to do this quickly in a off road situation would/could be.

Is the answer just the correct gear selection in the first place and keep on going...? YES

Is it just practise and it becomes really easy? YES

Do you just crash the gears at the odd time where a gear change is required fast?

Do I just accept that a series three is better?? (or weaker??)

How easy is a non-synchro box off road compared to a series three? could be described as a challange

Any input appreciated.

Sean

You will learn to love a non-syncro box.

Paul

[vnx205]

Is the answer just the correct gear selection in the first place and keep on going...?
There are a lot of situations where that is good practice with any gearbox.

Is it just practise and it becomes really easy?
When I was a lot younger and my reflexes, hearing and eyesight were a lot better :p, I drove a Series II offroad a bit and found the gearbox pretty easy to use.

Do you just crash the gears at the odd time where a gear change is required fast?
That didn't seem to happen very often. For example if I was running out of puff in second low and needed first low, if I had left it a bit late to change down, I found that in the time it took me to press and release the appropriate pedals and move the applicable lever, everything had just about stopped moving or rotating so that all that seemed to be needed was to disengage the clutch and push into first without even double de-clutching. It usually just slipped in with no noise at all. Of course if I was better prepared, double de-clutching worked as it should.

Do I just accept that a series three is better?? (or weaker??)
No - just different.

How easy is a non-synchro box off road compared to a series three?
A lot of people from farmers and construction workers to adventurers drove Series I and II Land Rover in some pretty extreme conditions, so it must be pretty easy.

Any input appreciated.

Sean

I imagine people like the Snowy construction workers needed some pretty quick changes in the conditions in which they worked. As far as I know they coped.

[JDNSW]

I can't really say, as I learnt to drive in vehicles with no synchromesh, but both my sons, having learnt in cars with synchromesh adapted fairly rapidly and easily to the 2a. Second is really very easy - changing up, all it needs is a brief pause in neutral, changing down double declutching is necessary, but does not have to be particularly accurate, and a bit of a clash won't hurt anyway.

First is more difficult as it is not constant mesh, but you can usually avoid changing down to it on the move. If you are likely to need to do so, you probably should be in low range anyway (in which case you are using 2/3/4). If you are in low range and need to change into first, you will be going so slowly that you are almost certain to stop anyway, so you might as well stop to avoid the problem.

John

[Blknight.aus]

once you're ofay with the way the gear box works a good operator can shift a non syncro box quicker than a normal driver can shift a full syncro box.

I have no problems operating on or off road without syncro its just a learning curve, If you really, really want to learn a crunch box grab an old series, hook up a tons worth of trailer then go driving in melbourne for a couple of days.

In answer to you're questions.

yep picking the right gear before you go is always best regardless of the type of transmission.

yep it gets easier

yep everyone crunches gears.

its not really harder its just different..

the non syncro box is stronger the series III is a little easier if you've never driven crash box or you're not confident about it.

[chazza]

When I learnt to double de-clutch in the Army, I was shown that the faster the action on the clutch pedal the better it worked.

Two quick bangs on the floor and the next gear will engage easily :D

Once you have mastered this skill (we had to in in 2 or 3 days or be off the course) try changing gears on the move without a clutch at all. The technique is the gentlest of finger pressure on the gearstick, whilst throttling off, the gear will disengage when it wants to and gentle pressure will push it into the next speed. Down-shifting is the same, with a bit of throttle in neutral to synchronise the dog clutch speeds. If this is done well there is no crunching and the passenger won't even notice that you are not using a clutch :D

Cheers Charlie

[clean32]

think about what you are asking the gear box to do.

as you are disengaging and engaging 1 gear thats connected to the drive shaft and another thats connected to the motor ver the clutch.

changing up you are asking the gear connected to the motor to spin slower to match the speed of the gear connected to the drive shaft a paus will help with this as the motor will lose its revs rater quickly.

shifting down is a bit different because you are asking for the motor driven gear to speed up. i tend to leave a bit of throttle on to try and match the motor revs for the new lower gear i am selecting. a bit of practice and if you get the reves correct it will just slip in quite quickly, no dubbing of the clutch.

i still double on upshifts, habit and it makes a mandatory pause, helps with the timing.

[peterg1001]

... try changing gears on the move without a clutch at all. ...
Cheers Charlie

That brings back memories. About 1970 I was delivering a load of beans to Spitalfields Market in London, and the clutch master cylinder failed on the way out of the markets. I drove back down to Kent, through London, across Tower Bridge, down the Old Kent Road, with no clutch. Just as well it was the middle of the night.

Peter

[isuzurover]

I have been driving my IIA offroad for 14 years. The lack of synchromesh has never caused an issue. The 2 - 1 change is the only tricky one, but you rarely need to do that offroad.

I once drove from northern NSW to Brisbane with no clutch - now that was a bit difficult...

What causes more difficulty is not being able to change easily from L-H at speed.

[hodgo]

I taught at the Army school of transport for two years, when the International F1 ( MK5) was in service and this vehicle has a fully crash box which was often a problem to some students, I found the best way to teach them was to give them an understanding of what the difference was between between the two types of boxes is and and why one has to double clutch.
I know this will draw some flack from Dave and some other mechanical minded persons as its not technically correct and to try and explain a syncro cone etc to some one that does not have a mechanical aptitude is a bit hard. But I found this works.

Think of a gears in a box ( circles with square cut teeth evenly spaced around it, the ends are square cut, the tops are square cut ) these are crash gears or non syncro gears.
Syncro gears are rounded on the ends and tops and with and the help of oil they slide into one another with ease.
A gear box can be divided into two half's, Top and bottom, Power comes into the box from the engine via the input shaft ( top one) and turns the top half of the box.
The power is the transmitted to the road wheels via the bottom half of the gear box when a set of gears are engaged.
With a crash box these two gears have to be revolving at the same resolutions to engage.
Don't forget when changing up gears it just a double clutch action , but changing down gears, when the clutch is engaged and the box is in natural you have to rev the engine slightly to bring the two gears up to the same revolutions.
When learning its not a good idea to rush the changes but make it a fast flowing action. and remenber your road speed in relation to the gear about to be engaged.
Best of luck, just keep praticing , as other he said, when you master it you will enjoy the driving this type of box.

Hodgo

[sjd70]

Thanks for all the excellent responses guys.

It seems the consensus is careful and considered practise and good gear selection, especially when off road.

I will certainly look more favourably at the older girls from now on!

[Bushie]

Non synchro boxes are not really that hard to get used to, a bit of practice will see you come good. You will however find it easier to change when the engine/gearbox needs to change as revs etc will already be closer matched.

MInd you if I jumped into a series landy I'd no doubt crunch a few gears - probably been 15+ years since I drove a non synchro box (Thornycroft Nubian)


Martyn

[wovenrovings]

You would have to admit Hodgo that the F1 had a particularly difficult crash gearbox. The landy is much easier.

Once you have driven a crash box for a while you will find you can use the same technique to change quicker on a slow sychro box. i.e the range rover 4 speed, as the sychros will have to less work.

[hodgo]

Its just a case of being able to understand whats happening in the gearbox, understanding road speed in relation to engine speed and you being able to sincronise the lot.

When you think you are good at it try shifting the transfer case from high to low and low to high on the move with out any noises.

Hodgo

[vnx205]

In the 60s, a mate of mine, who was a bit better at that sort of thing than I was did that for a couple of weeks in Sydney traffic.
He had bought an ex Electricity Commission SWB at auction. A stick had jumped up and ripped the clutch salve cylinder off, but he thought the rest of the vehicle looked good , so he took a chance on it.

For a couple of weeks, he drove it around Sydney with no way of disengaging the clutch. He became quite good at sitting at the traffic lights with the engine switched off and in 1st gear low range. When the lights turned green, he hit the starter, worked his way up though a couple of gears and into high range and up another gear or two. Then did it all again at the next set of traffic lights.

The vehicle did turn out to be a good buy. He never had any transmission problems.

[Aaron IIA]

You would have to admit Hodgo that the F1 had a particularly difficult crash gearbox.

What is difficult about a F1 International gearbox? Have you driven a 6x6 Studebaker? The shift patern goes around in a circle. How about a carrier? The shift patern is spun around 180 degrees, and the vehicle will stop while changing between first and second gears.

Aaron.

[MickS]

In the 60s, a mate of mine, who was a bit better at that sort of thing than I was did that for a couple of weeks in Sydney traffic.
He had bought an ex Electricity Commission SWB at auction. A stick had jumped up and ripped the clutch salve cylinder off, but he thought the rest of the vehicle looked good , so he took a chance on it.

For a couple of weeks, he drove it around Sydney with no way of disengaging the clutch. He became quite good at sitting at the traffic lights with the engine switched off and in 1st gear low range. When the lights turned green, he hit the starter, worked his way up though a couple of gears and into high range and up another gear or two. Then did it all again at the next set of traffic lights.

The vehicle did turn out to be a good buy. He never had any transmission problems.

But he walked in circles due to an excessively large left leg...:D:eek:

[hodgo]

What is difficult about a F1 International gearbox? Have you driven a 6x6 Studebaker? The shift patern goes around in a circle. How about a carrier? The shift patern is spun around 180 degrees, and the vehicle will stop while changing between first and second gears.

Aaron.


There is nothing wrong with a Studebaker gear box I did my driver's course on studies and GMC in 1964, the difference being is that the vehicles were left hand drive and we are use to right hand. They are really no different to a Mk5 F1 only U are sitting on operate sides of the vehicle. Rear engine buses unless fitted with a U change box work from the left hand side of the vehicle to the right and when you have driven a 5 or 6 speed fuller one of the most unforgiving boxes ever made ( I feel ) . It will give you something to complain about
Or try a Leyland from the 1950 vintage 5 speed box on a rear engine vehicle They can be a mongrel.

Hodgo

[numpty]

Non synchro boxes are not really that hard to get used to, a bit of practice will see you come good. You will however find it easier to change when the engine/gearbox needs to change as revs etc will already be closer matched.

MInd you if I jumped into a series landy I'd no doubt crunch a few gears - probably been 15+ years since I drove a non synchro box (Thornycroft Nubian)


Martyn

I remember one of those times in particular Martyn.:angel::angel:

As others have said regards changing gear, after a while it becomes almost second nature.

[Blknight.aus]

I taught at the Army school of transport for two years, when the International F1 ( MK5) was in service and this vehicle has a fully crash box which was often a problem to some students, I found the best way to teach them was to give them an understanding of what the difference was between between the two types of boxes is and and why one has to double clutch.
I know this will draw some flack from Dave and some other mechanical minded persons as its not technically correct and to try and explain a syncro cone etc to some one that does not have a mechanical aptitude is a bit hard. But I found this works.




not going to pick you on technical issues on that one... you're trying to get a concept to a driver in this instance and at the end of the day anything that you tell them that makes them work out the magic concept of "matching the speed of the gearbox input to the speed of the vehicle for the gear you are ABOUT to select" is the right thing to say, I dont care if its "the jelly beans around this cake need to be moving at the speed of the smarties on this one before you put the edges of the cake in contact".

If you were trying to explain how it actually worked Id have a crack.

the box in an F1 isnt that hard....

[Aaron IIA]

There is nothing wrong with a Studebaker gear box I did my driver's course on studies and GMC in 1964, the difference being is that the vehicles were left hand drive and we are use to right hand. They are really no different to a Mk5 F1 only U are sitting on operate sides of the vehicle. Rear engine buses unless fitted with a U change box work from the left hand side of the vehicle to the right and when you have driven a 5 or 6 speed fuller one of the most unforgiving boxes ever made ( I feel ) . It will give you something to complain about
Or try a Leyland from the 1950 vintage 5 speed box on a rear engine vehicle They can be a mongrel.

Hodgo

That is my point. No gearbox is hard. You just have to learn it's shift patern, and think about the ratio difference that you are going up or down to. If you read the various Land Rover manuals, they tell you when pulling a heavy load to start in low range first gear, work up to top, change to high range third gear, then top. It is all just practice, and knowing how far apart each ratio is from it's neighbour.