Puma Drive Line Slop Measurements & Clatter

[Brid]

In my opinion, Defenders have far too much drive train slop/backlash! I've recorded a measurement of sorts by jacking up one wheel at a time, and measuring the free travel at the circumference of the tyre. It doesn't measure backlash or identify where the play originates from, merely an indication of slop.

I've done this with my 2007 PUMA in the following modes (with handbrake OFF)...
Centre Diff OPEN
Centre Diff LOCKED
HIGH Range
LOW Range
Each of the 6 FORWARD and REVERSE Gears
All that with a REAR wheel lifted, and then a FRONT wheel lifted
I also measured movement with the handbrake ON (for the rear wheel up) to indicate diff, axle spline play. (Only 35-40mm here)

The results are in a spreadsheet, but the following trends might be of interest...
Play increased with each gear shift (Gear 1 least to gear 6 highest)
More play in HIGH range than LOW range
More play centre diff OPEN than LOCKED

The worst was 380mm travel 6th gear, high range open centre diff! That,to me, is a rediculous amount of free play.

The reason I did all this is because from new the Defender exhibits a violent drive train clatter under some circumstances. Low range, locked on VIC High Country trails has been the most obvious, and it occurs most noticeably between gear changes (eg 2nd to 3rd). As measured by the above, 2nd gear play is 90mm (rear wheel up). Through neutral, the play increases to 225mm...and that's where the clatter starts. You can hear the shafts clattering back and forth, and at that stage you'll grate the gears...it simple can't mesh cleanly because of the movement. If the centre diff was OPEN this wouldn't happen since the propshafts aren't fighting each other.

I suspect the main play might be in the transfer intermediate shaft, but I would appreciate anyone who can shed some light on it please. It is very difficult to replicate what happens to demonstrate to the dealers, and I suspect that is just the Land Rover design specs anyway.

Surely that amount of play is unnecessary, and causes shock loads throughout all driveline components.

I know you could shim out a lot of that sort of play with old Range Rovers, but maybe someone out there can provide some information please?

Cheers
Brid

[one_iota]

I suspect the main play might be in the transfer intermediate shaft, but I would appreciate anyone who can shed some light on it please. It is very difficult to replicate what happens to demonstrate to the dealers, and I suspect that is just the Land Rover design specs anyway.

Cheers
Brid

That could be the explanation. I say this because I was told by a dealer that it had replaced a couple of tranfers recently due to excessive movement accompanied by clatter. Worth persisting with the dealer I reckon.

[JDNSW]

While I can't give any details on the slop in the latest drive trains, I would comment that for all Landrovers with a similar layout, the symptoms you describe are greatly exacerbated by a dragging handbrake - and I would check this (one back wheel off the ground, handbrake off, prop shaft should turn easily a full turn by hand with no change in resistance). Reasons for a dragging handbrake include:- full of mud or sand; loose drum; rusted up expander; drum loose; broken pull-off spring; adjusted up too tight.

The Landrover drive train has a lot of joins between driving members - every splined joint - but in my experience, apart from definite faults like U-joints on the way out and chewed up drive flanges and gearbox main shafts, the biggest amount of slop comes from worn thrust washers in the centre diff and to a lesser extent the front and rear diffs.

John

[Bush65]

There is a fair bit of play in the t/case dog clutch for high/low.

Because of the way you are measuring the play, with one wheel elevated, the ratio of the planet pinions to side gears in the centre diff and the diff for the elevated wheel doubles the rotation at each diff. So 2 diffs will quadruple the rotation.

In normal driving both side gears are turning together and you don't get this gearing up effect.

I just went out and did a similar check on my disco I. In high range, top, the wheel rotates 1/8 revolution.

[TimNZ]

Hi Bird, I had the same rattle noise in low range that you have described, turned out to be the clutch. The anti rattle springs were very loose.

Cheers,

Tim

[BilboBoggles]

Same here - My MY09 had a nasty driveline clatter when coasting in 1st. I was beginning to think it was normal. They just replaced the clutch for another reason, and it's now silent! Or at least drowned out by the engine now.

[defmec]

my 200tdi was bad for drive line slop ,every time you put your foot on the clutch when in low 4x4 it would clack back and forth ,driving slow in traffic i would get a hop (car jolting back and forth from the centre diff) and even try to change gears some times without getting drive line take up,it was a pita
i ended up converting it to part time 4x4 and it stopped 90% of drive line slop, it was alot easier to drive and when off road i wouldn't get the
clatter when i put my foot on the clutch.
i have noticed friends with 80 series cruisers that are full time 4x4 get the same drive line slop as the rovers get with the lt230
i now have a county with a lt95 and it has non of the slop the lt230 has

[Brid]

Hi Bird, I had the same rattle noise in low range that you have described, turned out to be the clutch. The anti rattle springs were very loose.

Cheers,

Tim

Thanks Tim
This was a lot more violent than the clutch rattle (which I also had). I 'm pretty sure it has to do with there being a lot more free play in neutral than in 2nd & 3rd.

It has only been a problem when LOCKED and driving on firm fire trails and at gear change. Plenty of hard work in the Simpson, and because there was no wind up in the sand, I suspect that is why I didn't get any clatter. I feel that while I need to be locked on the steep fire trails, I am getting transmission wind up on the firm bits. As soon as the clutch goes in on gear change, suddenly some of that wind up is released. Without referring back I think my measurements were 90mm free wheel travel (Low 2nd)...225mm (neutral)...115mm (3rd gear). If I don't wait a fair while until the violent back clattering stops, it can't get into 3rd cleanly, and mostly you don't have that luxury.

Brid