Forbidden Suspension Mods

[andyrover]

I just picked up the latest Overlander mag which made reference to July article by Mark Allen on D3 suspension mods not recommended by LR. Also quoted some tricky device by Andrew Trafford, no further details. Any clues?

I can see a possible area of improvement in upping the sit-down speed from 40 kph as it could reduce transit times past Big Red. Also seem to recall a while ago a bit of trickery to fool the EAS computer to rise higher than factory settings eg. for serious crawling over rocks. Could be useful?

[rmp]

I forget which issue that was, but it wasn't the latest which is November (just out), it was 3-4 months back.

The device in question is an in-cabin method of changing the length of the sensor rods from Mitchell Bros. CD3 will be along shortly to explain it.

The D3/RRS warns at 40kmph and actually lowers at 50.

While all manufacturers take a dim view of any aftermarket accessories (at least in Australia), it is very rare for one to make the sort of statement Land Rover did and specifically call out a modification as unsafe.

Refer to various other threads here for more on the issue.

[andyrover]

OK, thanks, found it way back on page 10 somewhere and it looks interesting, shortening the height sensor rods would trick the system into thinking the car is lower than it actually is. This got me thinking a couple of things: Thing 1 - it's all good, who needs access height anyway? but then came Thing 2 - what else is being affected by fooling the system? For normal driving, the computers must think you are drivng around at access height all the time, unless they don't allow that and lift the car to 'normal' height automatically, which of course is now really extended height!

To quote from the Oct Overlander p.18: "The device described by Mr Trafford is strongly opposed by Land Rover as it is unsafe and interferes unlawfully in the air suspension system of the vehicle and with the braking system." I am prepared to dismiss the comment about 'unlawful interference with the air suspension system' as more of the same nanny state meddling we saw in NSW by the RTA recently, but I do worry about affecting the brakes in some way (in any way, in fact!). Any thoughts?

[Leo]

Slightly shorter rods make no difference to braking. I think LR are just covering themselves if anything does happen.

If you are still in warranty and do use shorter rods, don't let the dealer know. :angel:

[Blknight.aus]

doesnt make any difference to braking?

sure, you peg a lifted vehicle into a hard corner under brakes see how unaffected your braking is....

remember you're dealing with air suspension not spring steel or lift blocks doing this stuff.

changing the amount of air in an airbag changes not only its height but its characteristics.

dont believe me?

try it with tyres first get a handfull of differnt size and shape tyres weight them to the same mass, inflate them to the same pressure and drop them off of a cars tailgate and watch what happens..

now change the pressure.

notice anything different.

Although the scale isnt the same the same changes apply to your airbags.

[andyrover]

Thanks, fairly obvious but not quite what I had in mind... For instance, Terrain Response changes settings to ABS and has some interaction with the suspension height (I think). If only ABS is affected, I'm not that worried but I would like to know of any other effects on braking before modifying...

[Leo]

doesnt make any difference to braking?

sure, you peg a lifted vehicle into a hard corner under brakes see how unaffected your braking is....
.

I get what you're saying, but on the D3 and RRS, there is negligible difference in braking distance (if any) whether in normal height or off-road height. Putting 100kg of stuff in the back will have a greater effect.

andyrover: shortening the suspension rods has no effect on terrain response. As far as the computers are concerned, you're at normal height.

[Blknight.aus]

the main reason its forbidden is because thats not the way its designed.

altering any aspect of the suspension alters all the maths on how the vehicle was set up. Some car manufaturers even go down to the level of specifying the exact standard of tyre you can have on the car (porsche) for similar reasons. so even ignoring the extra loading and stress you can put on the suspension components by pushing them up further and all the other stuff that changes position on the driveline itself (hands up everyone who did a 2 inch lift on a disco with a rubber donut) by changing the height, stiffness, spring rate, leverage points and/or all the other fun aspects that get poked into computer programs these days to work out how a vehicle should handle you are going into places that the designer didnt design into the thing.

Prang a modded one and you're exposing yourself, the dealer, the car makers, the bloke who made the parts, the bloke who fitted the parts, the cop who pulled you over and failed to notice the vehicle was illegal, your dog, its fleas, someone you met on the street who encouraged you to keep the mod because it looked cool, mrs jones at number 42, the last mechanic to work on your vehicle, the guy who didnt defect it on its last inspection for roadworthy, his boss for not ensuring that it was suitabley defected and at least 12 other totally random people who are not related to you or the vehicle to litigation and lawsuits.

Blame it on the Americans and their "I can get rich quick by being ignorant and suing someone else for my stupidity" I do.

[daveyb]

Does anyone have a link to this Mark Allen article? I can't seem to find it. Interesting. Interesting.

[CaverD3]

As there are shortened and adjustable rods available; the original idea was to allow the shortened rods to be driver chosen. This would allow the factory setting to be the default setting. A return to factory settings being better (and safer) than permanent shortened rods.
The system has been tested in the Simpson and outback Queensland and has proved robust and effective.
However once the system was mentioned in the mainstream press LR Aust immediately set some lawyers onto myself and Mitchell Bros. Yes andyrover they used the never enacted VSI 50 to justify their argument. LR are within their rights to refuse a warranty claim if they believe a modification caused the failure (fair enough). It should be at your own risk.
We are trying to ensure the system is legal and are talking to engineers. We will eventually need to talk to LR and are happy to talk directly.
The system gives an extra 30mm of lift at normal height and correspondingly higher heights at other settings when activated. So it is well within the current supension modification height in the code of practice.

Davey this is the original:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/943.jpg

I'll see if I can dig up the Overlander response to LR.

[jtonline]

This would be great if Land Rover could just make it so we can do more than 50 when in 'off road' height. Especially when I was driving in soft sand on the weekend and could only do 50 and see my mates in their prado's and land cruisers dissapear up the beach up to the 80km/hr speed limit. :rulez:

[CaverD3]

Yup, but LR do not see it a a problem nor did Overlander.:angel:
The Toerag can do 70kph and the Matzkar system just manipulates the signal electronically instead.

[rmp]

Actually the roadtesters at Overlander do see a problem with it, which is why the article was run in the first place.

[CaverD3]

I was talking about the fact that the D3 is too low in normal height and too slow in off road for certain situations.:confused:

[rmp]

I was talking about the fact that the D3 is too low in normal height and too slow in off road for certain situations.:confused:

Yes...and that is what Overlander agrees with, which is why that article was run and letters from readers (and a training organisation) saying the 40/50 warn/lower have been disagreed with. Land Rover of course say there is no problem, which is not Overlander's view. Now as to your mod, well it was given space in the mag so that says something, but Land Rover, like everyone else, get a right of reply.

[gps-au]

Personally, I can see why LR would kick up a stink, just to cover there a :censored:'s.

But used sensibly I cant see a problem with it. I actually think its better than either permanent shortened rods, or even manually selectable (on each corner) as that can be a pain and the temptation to leave it high is just too great.

My use is simple, just as a replacement height switch, the only time I would consider using both is for a high river crossing, which fortunately this trip I haven't needed it (yet?).

[norto]

I was talking about the fact that the D3 is too low in normal height and too slow in off road for certain situations.:confused:
Have to agree. Just spent the weekend with Tdmp, Wayned and Jonesy63.
We did a trip up behind Moruya along Mericumbene and Oulla creek fire trail.
The persistant bong at 40 kph and the lowering at 50 is painfull.
Its not a problem untill you go offroad

[Guss]

also agree...

[jtonline]

Wonder if you can some how access the Nanny, that drops the car at 50km's and tell it to ...... well not lower, therefore meaning you can select it manually instead of the car controlling it???? Just a thought, something I would never do of course. :angel:

[andyrover]

I found the solution! Back on page 13, called 'Adjustable Height Sensor Rods' sold by a bloke in USA at a currently favourable exchange rate :D. These can be fitted in place of the originals and adjusted to a length suitable for maintaining off road clearances :twisted:

[CaverD3]

Adustable rods work to increase the suspension height.
They are a permanent solution and need to be taken on and off to return to factory settings.
Same principle but my system will alow return to factory settings by switching off the system.

[daveyb]

I found the solution! Back on page 13, called 'Adjustable Height Sensor Rods' sold by a bloke in USA at a currently favourable exchange rate :D. These can be fitted in place of the originals and adjusted to a length suitable for maintaining off road clearances :twisted:


Cheers Andy!

[Guss]

As there are shortened and adjustable rods available; the original idea was to allow the shortened rods to be driver chosen. This would allow the factory setting to be the default setting. A return to factory settings being better (and safer) than permanent shortened rods.
The system has been tested in the Simpson and outback Queensland and has proved robust and effective.
However once the system was mentioned in the mainstream press LR Aust immediately set some lawyers onto myself and Mitchell Bros. Yes andyrover they used the never enacted VSI 50 to justify their argument. LR are within their rights to refuse a warranty claim if they believe a modification caused the failure (fair enough). It should be at your own risk.
We are trying to ensure the system is legal and are talking to engineers. We will eventually need to talk to LR and are happy to talk directly.
The system gives an extra 30mm of lift at normal height and correspondingly higher heights at other settings when activated. So it is well within the current supension modification height in the code of practice.

Davey this is the original:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/943.jpg

I'll see if I can dig up the Overlander response to LR.


Sounds good CaverD3, do you have a larger pic so we can read the article? Did you find the Overlander response?

[andyrover]

I just bought some of the adjustable rods, haven't fitted them yet, been busy measurin' tho' and it seems to me you can fit them at standard height and adjust them on the car by 10mm (6 full turns). That should give the expected 50mm difference in ride height. Adventurous activities over, adjust them back to standard again and Bob's your uncle! Subject to confirmation...

[daveyb]

Bingo Andy! Most of us Boys here in the States just leave them set "shortened" as we don't have a Nanny yet. The only downside of going back and forth with the adjustments while installed is hitting the exact same alignment settings. I highly recommend a complete alignment after rod install.

[CaverD3]

Land Rovers claim here was based on VSI 50 which is not law........yet.
Make sure you tell your insurance company you have a suspension lift though.

[jtonline]

Man, Land Rover make a great Car the best I have had so far, but they are really spoiling it's pleasure over this little thing. Come on Land Rover just go "ok here is the electronic update so we can stay at offroad height till we get to 70km"... PLEASE! :wallbash:

[rmp]

Man, Land Rover make a great Car the best I have had so far, but they are really spoiling it's pleasure over this little thing. Come on Land Rover just go "ok here is the electronic update so we can stay at offroad height till we get to 70km"... PLEASE! :wallbash:

You don't understand Land Rover.

They have a design brief; make the best cars in the world, then cripple them in such a way you still buy it despite the flaw. Every Land Rover model fufils this design objective.

Imagine if Land Rover made Cameron Diaz -- she'd turn into Camilla Parker Bowles as soon as you exceeded 50kmph.

[CaverD3]

:Rolling:

Land Rover Oz won't do anthing to help. Will try to kill aftermarket mods even. Maybe they want to bring out a software mod and wish to kill the competition so they can charge a fortune for what should be there.:angel:

[Dave128]

Land Rover is not the only manufacturer to limit suspension height at 50kmh porsche is another example.

I would not want to trust any after market mod that may not take into account all the vehicle systems such as articulation cross suspension valves, impact on vehicle yaw sensors or roll stability control in the ABS system that is active above 50kmh. ABS based RSC is common in many vehicles.

I prefer to change/challenge my driving approach on sand rather than blame vehicle design and get the most out of the vehicle within its limitations.

[CaverD3]

Giving a lift to a coil sprung vehicle with ESC would have exactly the same issues and lane change testing by the aftermarket industry of numerous vehicles has shown this not to be an issue and remain very stable. In fact many commercial vehicles will spectacularly fail this test.
Fine Dave, it is your choice whether to fit or not. It should also be your choice to engage or not and adjust driving to suit. Most manufacturers allow you switch off the ESC anyway.
It is more dangerous to have low tyre pressures or worn tyres.

The Toerag which is basically the same as the Porche will do 70kph in off-road height.
The normal road height of the D3 is too low for deeply rutted tracks where you have to travel long distances (some have suffered severe underside damage). Off road height gives better clearance than most 4x4s but something in between is what is needed. In most situations you can adjust your driving to suit but there are some situations where it is not desirable or practical. This is the gap in the D3s ability to be an outback tourer and where some will go for a coil sprung Jap one instead.
It is a matter of marketing. Vehicles are tested for only those speeds which suit the product to the main markets. This is only an issue in Oz and SA and we are too small a market for them to bother.:(

[Jamo]

The porsche will only drop from 271mm down to 250mm. It will then stay there unless you go over 160?.

It has five use selectable heights rather then three.

[Jamo]

I can't edit my post so I'll correct it here.

The Porsche has 6 height settings of which one is not user selectable.

Loading is 161mm - only available when stationary
L2 is 181mm - automatically lowers to this over 210kph (not user selectable)
L1 is 191mm - automatically lowers to this over 120kph
Normal is 215mm
H1 is 241mm - automatically lowers to Normal over 80kph
H2 is 271mm - automatically lowers to H1 over 30kph

So there you go!

[AnD3rew]

One thing I learned on the weekend is that apparently if you flick up the suspension switch when you hear the I'm about to lower bong, it will suspend the lower for a period of time (not sure how long).

This can help if you are running up to a dune, or getting a run up to the soft sand when entering or leaving a beach.

still doesn't help if you need to do a long distnace in soft sand though.

[WhiteD3]

I did a test some time ago re extended mode. Lowered the car onto the jack to invoked extended mode, the drove slowly around the block. As long as I stayed under 8kph(?) it stayed in that mode. I could drive faster than this but had to drop below 8kph within each 45 second window to keep the mode active.

[gghaggis]

I did a test some time ago re extended mode. Lowered the car onto the jack to invoked extended mode, the drove slowly around the block. As long as I stayed under 8kph(?) it stayed in that mode. I could drive faster than this but had to drop below 8kph within each 45 second window to keep the mode active.

In an emergency, you can pull the EAS fuse to prevent changes. You won't have any cross-axle valving though - not that you have much articulation at that height anyway.

Cheers,

Gordon

[jtonline]

In an emergency, you can pull the EAS fuse to prevent changes. You won't have any cross-axle valving though - not that you have much articulation at that height anyway.

Cheers,

Gordon

So If we want to stay in off-road height when driving down the beach through rutted sand, we pull out the EAS fuse and it won't lower? Trying not to get excited as I may not be getting that right?

[CaverD3]

Yes, but it generates fault codes, do it too often and it may drop.

[gghaggis]

As CaverD3 said it generates quite a few fault codes, and you could lose your TR. As I mentioned - "in an emergency", eg deep fording, rock climbing etc.

Cheers,

Gordon

[rob4play]

Having manually selected high suspension mode I turned off and pulled the 20A compressor fuse. Was forced to find this solution on a Birdsville trip. Stayed at high no matter what all programs could be selected and only got the warning alarms when crossing the speed threshholds etc - drove for Kms without problem and tuned the tones out after a while.
PS that was standard high mode not extended

[jtonline]

Having manually selected high suspension mode I turned off and pulled the 20A compressor fuse. Was forced to find this solution on a Birdsville trip. Stayed at high no matter what all programs could be selected and only got the warning alarms when crossing the speed threshholds etc - drove for Kms without problem and tuned the tones out after a while.
PS that was standard high mode not extended

Again though would this not trigger error codes and flag warnings to the Dealer/servicer?:wasntme:

[d3viate]

"My friend" bought a set of genuine front and rear links for about $120 I think they were, cut and shut them 10mm shorter and so far have done over 45,000kms on them including big corrugations for a couple of thousand kms straight and have never had a problem, and the tyres wore flat across the tread, "he" rotate's the tyres ( Mickey Thompson MTZ's but now 4 lug ATZ's). The dealers have not noticed. As the links connect to a Potentiometer there is no load on them. I, sorry, "he" also carries one spare set modified and the originals but they have not been required as yet touch wood.

[rob4play]

Correction - thought I better test again getting to that point where the memory is not that good.
Suspension fault light comes on and no special programmes available which is how it was when at Big Red etc.
Big Red was no challange had set in high with the fuse out for the before mentioned reasons which meant I could run up at good speed so just stayed in hi ratio start in third and used command shift to drop down and keep the torque and revs up when steeper/softer. DSC off of course and never hinted at running out of traction or puff.
However I do also have the wider Cooper LTZs 285/60 fitted which when lowered to 22psi help a lot of course.

When I tested after the original faults etc had been fixed I had no fault lights etc come up only the usual alarms re lowering no suspension fault alarms etc. Put the fuse back in and all normal nothing residual and no questions from the dealer after recent service. Might just be that it generated the command to lower but does not check that it has but simply next time it crosses the speed threshold again automatically generated the command again hence the recurring lowering alarm.
Would be a good one to test thoroughly next time I am in the sand. My test once everyhting was fixed was just a 8km loop with tight corners very steep hillls and a very short section of dried ruts off road.
P.S.tempted to wire in a hidden toggle switch rather than have to pull the fuse.