Rolls-Royce B40 Powered 80" Land Rover

[Lost Landy]

All 1949 80" landrovers had the 1.6 litre motor except the " B40 Rolls Royce" powered models.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

All 1949 80" landrovers had the 1.6 litre motor except the " B40 Rolls Royce" powered models.The B40 powered Land Rover was an after-market hybrid, no different to a Holden powered Land Rover so should be considered in that light. Also I think that you will find that the B40 powered ones were all 1950.

There were some 2 litre prototypes built by Rover but not in 1949.

[JDNSW]

The B40 powered Land Rover was an after-market hybrid, no different to a Holden powered Land Rover so should be considered in that light. Also I think that you will find that the B40 powered ones were all 1950.

There were some 2 litre prototypes built by Rover but not in 1949.

The B40 engined Landrovers were modified by Hudson Motors as subcontractors for Rover, so a case could be made that they were different to Holden powered models - indeed, more akin to the Isuzu powered Stage 1s.

The contract was signed on December 20th 1949, and although there was a prototype built (by Rover) prior to this, it seems unlikely this was ever completed or delivered, so for practical purposes they were all built in 1950. In any case, since the 1950 model year started after the August 1949 works shutdown, they were all 1950 models anyway.

John

[260AC]

The contract was signed on December 20th 1949, and although there was a prototype built (by Rover) prior to this, it seems unlikely this was ever completed or delivered,

John

Yes, the single Rover built B40 was completed.

R862561 Desp 'In' 11/02/49 and 'Out' 15/03/49, To Mr Goddard, Rover Co. Then redispatched 'Out' to FVDE Cobham, (Rolls Royce Engine)

[JDNSW]

Yes, the single Rover built B40 was completed.

R862561 Desp 'In' 11/02/49 and 'Out' 15/03/49, To Mr Goddard, Rover Co. Then redispatched 'Out' to FVDE Cobham, (Rolls Royce Engine)

Thanks for the clarification - my quick reading of the relevant section of John Smith's book left me with the impression that this was uncertain.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The B40 engined Landrovers were modified by Hudson Motors as subcontractors for Rover, so a case could be made that they were different to Holden powered models - indeed, more akin to the Isuzu powered Stage 1s.

The contract was signed on December 20th 1949, and although there was a prototype built (by Rover) prior to this, it seems unlikely this was ever completed or delivered, so for practical purposes they were all built in 1950. In any case, since the 1950 model year started after the August 1949 works shutdown, they were all 1950 models anyway.

JohnJohn

Just out of interest, the B40 engined Land Rovers may have been modified by Hudson Motors, who may have been subcontractors for Rover for things and contractors for the Ministry of Defense for other things. The vehicles converted had already been delivered to the MoD and it was because of a MoD requirement to test the Rolls Royce B40 engine's suitability for the Austin Champ project and not for any design requirements for the Land Rover. Why would it have been a Rover contracted development?

In Rover terms the production year commences in August of the year prior to the calendar year, (as yor said) so a contract signed in December 1949 is signed in the 1950 production year (as you said) and it is unlikely that any of the actual production of B40's happened in the 3 days before Christmas shutdown or in the 3 days that they may have worked in the week between Christmas and New Year - if the factory operated at all.

Therefore: The Land Rovers converted to Rolls Royce B40 power were all 1950 models - as I said.
The Land Rovers had all been delivered to the MoD so the B40 conversion was after-market as I said.
Which makes them hybrids and no different to the Holden conversion Land Rover tested alongside the B40 powered Land Rover by the Australian Dept of Supply, Army Design Establishment.

Not at all like the production Isuzu powered Land Rovers.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have to apologise the 33 test vehicles were indeed 1949 models.

According to an article in the magazine "Classic Military Vehicle" April 2003 edition. "In May 1949, 33 new FV18001 Series 1s from contract 6/VEH/3569, were shipped to Hudson Motors' West London factory for the transplant." the article continues to conclude with the comment "However, it is worth dispelling the myth that says that these were "prototype Rolls Royce engined vehicles" which never made it into production. There is no documentary evidence that there was any intention to produce B40-engined Land Rovers in quantity - the vehicles were simply test beds for the engine." Similar statements about the Land Rover being merely a test platform for the Rolls Royce B40 engine (and Holden engine) are clearly documented in the Australian "Army Design Establishment" reports of the B40 (and Holden engine) tropical trials.

As I said hybrids.

[JDNSW]

I have to apologise the 33 test vehicles were indeed 1949 models.

According to an article in the magazine "Classic Military Vehicle" April 2003 edition. "In May 1949, 33 new FV18001 Series 1s from contract 6/VEH/3569, were shipped to Hudson Motors' West London factory for the transplant." the article continues to conclude with the comment "However, it is worth dispelling the myth that says that these were "prototype Rolls Royce engined vehicles" which never made it into production. There is no documentary evidence that there was any intention to produce B40-engined Land Rovers in quantity - the vehicles were simply test beds for the engine." Similar statements about the Land Rover being merely a test platform for the Rolls Royce B40 engine (and Holden engine) are clearly documented in the Australian "Army Design Establishment" reports of the B40 (and Holden engine) tropical trials.

As I said hybrids.

That is quite correct, but the fact remains that the installation was designed by Rover, who however, as you say never had any intention of series production of them. In fact, by that time they were so busy building standard Landrovers that they had to put the work out to Hudson Motors. Certainly the ultimate use of the vehicles was as test beds for the engine, and I have no doubt that Rover was hoping that they would not be asked to mass produce them. (They were not really a very suitable engine - too bulky, too heavy and too powerful.)

But the fact that the installation was designed by Rover makes the circumstances different to the Holden example - as far as I know there is no evidence that a Holden engine installation was ever designed by Rover, let alone producing forty of them.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...But the fact that the installation was designed by Rover makes the circumstances different to the Holden example - as far as I know there is no evidence that a Holden engine installation was ever designed by Rover, let alone producing forty of them.

JohnDo we have evidence that the conversion WAS designed by Rover?

The article I quoted from suggests that "The first vehicle was possibly converted by Rolls-Royce as a proving exercise, but work on the trials vehicles was undertaken by Hudson Motors Limited, the British subsidiary of the detroit-based firm of the same name."

Yes we know from Mike's record of the dispatch books that the first B40 powered vehicle was allocated to Mr Goddard (our new best friend) then dispatched out to FVDE, however did the B40 engine conversion occur at Rover or at FVDE? I would lean to FVDE as it would be Rolls-Royce engineers modifying their engine for the test platform (Land Rover) and they would have to have their Rolls-Royce resources on hand for the design modifications to produce the B40 No.1 Mk2b used in the Land Rover.

Mike - does the vehicle dispatch record list the engine number?

Alex - Can you ask Arthur? :)

I have to say this again, this use of Land Rover was for the development of a Rolls-Royce B40 engine as part of a series of parts-in-common engines for the Ministry of Defence by Rolls-Royce. The B40 was for use in the Austin Champ. The contracts for the design work would have been let by either the MoD or Rolls-Royce not by anyone else including Rover.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have to apologise the 33 test vehicles were indeed 1949 models.

According to an article in the magazine "Classic Military Vehicle" April 2003 edition. "In May 1949, 33 new FV18001 Series 1s from ...<snip>I have to apologise I thought I was wrong, but in-fact I was in error that I thought I was wrong! :D

It seems that like many published sources including the information is not completely reliable.

According to another "reliable" source all the B40 converted vehicles were 061 prefix making them 1950 models, which corresponds with an assumption the vehicles came out of MoD stock in May 1950 not May 1949.

If people wish to check some of the MoD numbers of known B40 vehicles are:
11 BC 75
11 BC 77
11 BC 80
11 BC 98
12 BC 09
12 BC 13
12 BC 15
12 BC 17
12 BC 41
12 BC 42

If they were sent from Rover they would all have 33 numbers in sequence where in real life the numbers are spread over at least 67 which would indicate to me they were collected at random from a MoD motor pool.

[JDNSW]

Diana,
John Smith's new book has a whole chapter on this vehicle and gives a great deal of detail (I won't go into the detail - if you don't have the book yet you should get it), although these are not necessarily correct in all respects. He does however include photos of things like the parts list and drivers handbook.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana,
John Smith's new book ...

...if you don't have the book yet you should get it), ...John

I'd have to learn to read first! :p :wasntme:

[3toes]

If you are interested in this engine and the various uses it was put to think the best source of information so far is the book by Pat Ware called The Rolls - Royce B series engine In National Service. This was published about 15 years ago and is hard cover.

Do not have a copy to hand however from memory the B40 engine was intended to power the military Land-Rovers. This was a policy decision made during WW2 that to make supply easier they would adopt a standard range of engines which all military vehicles would be powered by. No more different engine from each vehicle manufacturer. Land-Rover was not to be an exception.

Rolls-Royce had designed just such a range of engines prior to WW2 that had never gone into production. Rather than start from scratch and so delay replacement of the worn out vehicle fleet they adopted the product as it was. Hence some of the design features of the engine do not live up to what you would expect for the age.

Some more info can be found here RREC - Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts' Club - Clan Foundry Belper (http://www.rrec.org.uk/History/Clan_Foundry_Belper.php)

[JDNSW]

If you are interested in this engine and the various uses it was put to think the best source of information so far is the book by Pat Ware called The Rolls - Royce B series engine In National Service. This was published about 15 years ago and is hard cover.

Do not have a copy to hand however from memory the B40 engine was intended to power the military Land-Rovers. This was a policy decision made during WW2 that to make supply easier they would adopt a standard range of engines which all military vehicles would be powered by. No more different engine from each vehicle manufacturer. Land-Rover was not to be an exception.

Rolls-Royce had designed just such a range of engines prior to WW2 that had never gone into production. Rather than start from scratch and so delay replacement of the worn out vehicle fleet they adopted the product as it was. Hence some of the design features of the engine do not live up to what you would expect for the age.

Some more info can be found here RREC - Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts' Club - Clan Foundry Belper (http://www.rrec.org.uk/History/Clan_Foundry_Belper.php)

Not entirely correct, but pretty much. The engines derive from the Bentley engine developed just before the Rolls Royce takeover (which explains why they have some rather dated features!) but did not actually go into production in any form until after the war, when the engine in six cylinder form went into the first post war Rolls and Bentleys. RR proposed it to the War Office in four, six and eight cylinder variants to solve the problem of a multitude of different spares etc.

The four was planned to go into the Jeep replacement, already being designed as the FV1800 in 1944, best known to us as the Austin Champ. But it was not available until 1952, even as a prototype, and since the Landrover was already being used by the Army, the decision was made to test the engine in this.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<SNIP>...when the engine in six cylinder form went into the first post war Rolls and Bentleys. ...<SNIP>John

Didn't the 6 cylinder B60 version go into the Austin Princess or similar car, manufactured under licence from Rolls-Royce?

Diana

[JDNSW]

John

Didn't the 6 cylinder B60 version go into the Austin Princess or similar car, manufactured under licence from Rolls-Royce?

Diana

The original Austin Princess used the Austin/BMC C Series engine, but I believe the much later (sixties) and smaller Vanden Plas Princess did use a RR engine, a short stroke version of the B60. (confirmed - see Wikipedia)

John

[vnx205]

So is that idea of common components across different size engines with different numbers of cylinders used much today? If not, why not? It must surely have advantages in some circumstances.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So is that idea of common components across different size engines with different numbers of cylinders used much today? If not, why not? It must surely have advantages in some circumstances.Yes

Take a look at the specs of the Isuzu engines. The 4BD1 is 3.9 litres the 6BD1 is 5.8 litres and use the same internal components.

[JDNSW]

So is that idea of common components across different size engines with different numbers of cylinders used much today? If not, why not? It must surely have advantages in some circumstances.

I was shown an example today by the bloke that came to fix my satellite link - his VW van has an engine that is half a BMW V10. It has been a common idea throughout the history of internal combustion engines, but for a variety of reasons, has rarely seemed to have all the advantages it looks like it ought to.

John

[Grockle]

If you are interested in this engine and the various uses it was put to think the best source of information so far is the book by Pat Ware called The Rolls - Royce B series engine In National Service. This was published about 15 years ago and is hard cover.

Do not have a copy to hand however from memory the B40 engine was intended to power the military Land-Rovers. This was a policy decision made during WW2 that to make supply easier they would adopt a standard range of engines which all military vehicles would be powered by. No more different engine from each vehicle manufacturer. Land-Rover was not to be an exception.

Rolls-Royce had designed just such a range of engines prior to WW2 that had never gone into production. Rather than start from scratch and so delay replacement of the worn out vehicle fleet they adopted the product as it was. Hence some of the design features of the engine do not live up to what you would expect for the age.

Some more info can be found here RREC - Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts' Club - Clan Foundry Belper (http://www.rrec.org.uk/History/Clan_Foundry_Belper.php)

I worked on these engines as an apprentice at 38 Central Workshop REME in Chilwell Nottingham,thanks for the link it's very interesting as I live only a few miles from Belper.

[andrew e]

I remember reading in a land rover owner inernational mag about one of these a while ago. One of the contributers (Peter Gallie???) got himself a lucky find - an unmolested ex museam piece, 1949 (thats what they said, and it had the lights behind the grill...) B40 powered royal review S1. It had hubcaps and all. The wheelbase was also altered for the engine, It grew an inch to 81.


Andy