4L V8: excessive oil consumption?

[phuma]

My disco 4L V8 is using too much oil to my liking :-/

Background:
. 1999 Disco 2 4L V8, 196000km
. running BP Vanellus C6 Classic 15w40 (this is a multifleet oil used by an independent locally)
. recently (200km ago) replaced thermostat - old one was stuck open
. at same time also replaced HT leads; was misfiring
. oil currently in engine for about 2000km
. had a near overheat situation after new thermostat was fitted (temp guage went up, and I shut off the engine as the needle went into red, and the red light came on). The overheat was because some idiot previously blocked off the pipe from the engine to the thermostat; radiator cleaned and everything fine now.
. is not losing water at all - never has, and has not since the thermostat incident
. seems to smoke a lot after overrun (only easily seen at night?)
. little bit (puff) of smoke if you floor it while standing
. no drops, nothing!, where it is parked
. smells a bit oily if you've driven it hard, and coasts to a halt

I would guess my consumption is about 1 to 2 litres per 1000km; yesterday the dipstick dropped by 5mm after a 100km run at speeds of about 120km/h, aircon on. I have not really watched it as closely since the near overheat incident, so cannot really say if the overheat has damaged something :-( I have also not really kept that good records of when I filled up with oil before, but I have had to top up (would guess at least 1 litre) between 5000km services before.

1. What is the oil consumption I should be expecting from this vehicle?
2. How much oil can worn valve stem seals "lose"? Can it explain this consumption?
3. There's a bit of oil sweating between the gearbox (R380) and the engine - is there a drain plug that I can check what's going on there?
4. Can one change the valve stem seals on this engine with the heads still on? Or is it marginally more effort just to take the heads off, do the head gaskets and everything you can do with the heads off?
5. Lots of people on 4x4community.co.za recommend running Caltex (Chevron) Delo 400 multigrade 15/40. Comments?
6. Would it maybe be a good idea to do a leakdown / compression test to isolate the possible problem? Any other tests that I could do myself?

I have sent off some oil for oil anaylys; will hopefully have the results later this week, but don't know if that will tell me anything.

[RoverP6B]

Hello phuma,

My engine is a 4.6 with about 35,000km up. The heads have K-lined valve guides, and stem oil seals have not been fitted.

As my engine is not a regular 4.6, it runs a distributor with camshaft driven oil pump, engine oil is Penrite HPR 30...20W-60.

Oil consumption is always very stable over both city and country driving, being 400 to 500ml per 1600km.

Ae your engine breathers clear,..no blockages?

Ron.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

smoke on overrun is oil passing the rings,,
(at least you know the oil pump is ok,,,)

I ran my D1 on RX till it started using some between 5k changes, then switched to HPR30,, so from around 150K to 280K it never used any oil.

sometimes fleet oils just aint enough,,

[PhilipA]

I would guess my consumption is about 1 to 2 litres per 1000km

My 3.9 with 190KK on it uses about 500-700Ml of valvoline 15-40 in 5000Km, and I think that would be typical of an average 3.9-4.0.

To me there is something seriously wrong with your car. Maybe the oil control rings have lost tension. I would have a compression test and leak down first to see what condition the rings are in.

It looks to me like a new short engine may be required, or at the very least new rings but this usually involves a rebore and new pistons.

I would be very surprised if it was just guides as usually the V8 is pretty gentle on guides even though most of my consumption is via the guides ( and yours has teflon seals).
Regards Philip A

[phuma]

Haven't replied yet because Philip's post scared me too much!

I'll check the breathers first ;-) Any chance it's just because the previous owner did not do enough changes, and the oil is now "cleaning" it and therefore using more? Please? :-)

Pedro - I always thought smoke on (after) overrun is oil going past the valve stems?

This is a weekend, and overland, vehicle. I don't expect miracles from it, some oil consumption would be ok - so if there is some cheaper ways to make it less consumptious :-) I'm all ears.

I will check back with the oil analysis results as soon as I have it.

[phuma]

Can I have a blown head gasket with the only symptom being oil lost?

[Psimpson7]

Im not familiar with the layout of the oilways etc in the head of a V8, but one of my cars suffered a head gasket failure where it leaked oil from the oil return area of the head gasket from the head to the block, so its probably possible.

[PhilipA]

My assessment is based on the amount of oil. 2 litres per 1000Km is 200CCs per 100Km , or 20CCs per 10. It is just the sheer volume of oil used that leads me to rings as the most likely explanation.

If leaking the underside of the car would be coated in oil and drop 6 inch pools every time it stopped so surely it would be noticed.

Mine had a small leak at the pressure relief valve that caused it to use 1 litre total per 5000Km and it coated the sump and crossmember with oil .

Regards Philip A

[PLR]

Can I have a blown head gasket with the only symptom being oil lost?

G`day ,

no not really , the oil only passes through on its way to the overhead gear .
There are only 2 small holes one at either end and far from any compression so would need to be a very unusual failure .

If it a manual gearbox , when stationary and running temp , give it a rev at around 3000rpms for 5 or 8 seconds if it blows some smoke the rings are possibly at fault .
If it`s an auto it can still be done but the auto may not like it .

Give it a leak down or dry/wet compression test anyway , give an idea of what it`s like .

If the oil your using now is a first use go back to what it was using .
If the consumption reduces that`s all it is and would be the first place i`d be looking .

With any engine it seem to be there are oils they like and oils they don`t , it`s not uncommon to change brands of oil and fine an increase in consumption or more leaks or the other way .

Cheers

[phuma]

Pulled the plugs tonight (they were the complete wrong kind; Champion RN11YCC - for the 3.9). Here are some plug porn for you guys... only plug 5 looks *really* oily. I had misfiring before, and also changed the leads about two weeks ago. Could a misfire make a plug look like that? The other plugs?
(next four pictures in next post)

I fitted Champion EON 2 on instructions from my independent... he does not like the NGK BPR6ES :-/

Oh, and by the way - photographically this was a challenge :-)

[phuma]

The other 4.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

justr for comparison,,
here's 4 of mine at 90k
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/1208.jpg

[phuma]

Using the wrong plugs surely couldn't have helped my plugs look better... (it wasn't me; was in the car when I bought it!)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

it seems ALL your pots are burning oil,,,
so, something common to all cylinders.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

OME is chumpion RC11PYPB4
http://www.championsparkplugs.com/results_fitment.asp?pid=rc11pypb4

explanation of your problem,,
http://www.ngkspark.com.au/sparkplug_tech.php#

[PhilipA]

I hesitate to make any comment on the plugs except 5 is definitely oil fouled.

The rest are either oil fouled or removed after the engine has been cold started, as rich fuel can look tan like that. 2 and 3 also look more suspect.

As far as 5 is concerned maybe a dead lead or dud coil could cause it, but most likely you are swapping cause and effect.ie it is the oil fouling causing the miss not vice versa.
Really a compression and leak down test will tell you more and should be the first thing you do.
Regards Philip A

[phuma]

I know - I have to do a compression test; just don't know how / where yet :-/

My oil analysis report came in:
Wear rates appear normal. Recommend checking for causes of high oil
consumption eg: defective rings,valve guides,valve stem seals etc. High oil
consumption can make readings appear normal or even low and may result in
diagnosis being unreliable. 5.5% Fuel dilution taking place - check fuel system
for malfunction. Fuel dilution makes the oil unfit for further use. Change the oil
and oil filters. Please return feedback.

The "chromium" is apparently for rings; does not look as if it is wearing too much now.
Only thing that was highlighted when I chatted to the consultant was that the sulphate is a bit high - which happens when the car was running with an open thermostat during winter :-( Fuel dilution could be explained by that too, or could be a leaky injector.

For those that are interested...
Wear metals (parts per million):
. iron 21
. chromium 1
. nickel 1
. molybdenum 2
. aluminium 5
. copper 7
. tin 1
. lead 10
. pq index 15

Contaminants (parts per million):
. silicon 8
. sodium 4
. manganese 3
. soot value 0
. oxidation 16
. sulphate 25
. nitrates 11
. fuel 5.5 %

Additives & Lubricant condition (parts per million):
. magnesium 21
. calcium 2455
. zinc 1241
. phosphorus 1060
. barium 1
. boron 2
. sulphur 11570
. total base number +6

Viscosity: 80.8 cSt @ 40C and 12.2 cSt @ 100C

[phuma]

I did not do it myself; the guys apparently did it after the car sat overnight.
All results are for dry, and cylinder number 4 was done with oil too:
1. 900 kPa
2. 1000 kPa
3. 900 kPa
4. 850, 1000 kPa wet
5. 900 kPa
6. 900 kPa
7. 900 kPa
8. 900 kPa

What next? This is a low compression engine.

[Blknight.aus]

whats the wet/dry on all the pots? and whats the difference between a cold wet/dry and a hot wet/dry?

theres more than 10% difference from the highest pot to the lowest pot so theres probabley ring prolbems in there.

to change the rings the heads have to come off, while the heads are off get the valvestems k-lined and new seals.

[phuma]

It was done from cold, and they only did the one pot 'wet' too. Sorry - I just asked a shop to do the compression test for me, did not give too many instructions. They reckon I need to overhaul a bit - heads off and engineered (valves cleaned, guides etc.), new rings, hone block, and new bearings for the short block.

Awaiting the quote tomorrow morning :eek:

In South African Rand I am guestimating about R13000 = 1900 aussie dollar.

[Blknight.aus]

I'll back that.

[Tank]

First I would check, and clean all of the fittings in the PCV system, I have a 4L motor in my 93 Disco, with the 3.5 EFI and Dissy, I use Castrol Magnatec 10W/40 and recommend it. When checking dipstick to determine oil consumption ALWAYS park in the same spot so you get an accurate reading, if no result I would do a compression test. Quick test, remove oil filler cap while engine is running and see how much blow-by you have, sit cap in hole and if it hardly moves then blow-by is not an issue, but if cap gets blown out of hole you have issues with blow -by, rings, valve guides, Regards Frank.

[Discobaker]

It was done from cold, and they only did the one pot 'wet' too. Sorry - I just asked a shop to do the compression test for me, did not give too many instructions. They reckon I need to overhaul a bit - heads off and engineered (valves cleaned, guides etc.), new rings, hone block, and new bearings for the short block.

Awaiting the quote tomorrow morning :eek:

In South African Rand I am guestimating about R13000 = 1900 aussie dollar.

Mate I know this is like a resurrection but Pedro keeps telling me to search!!!
My issues with my 4L V8 are very similar to yours, I've tried testing the blow back by sitting the oil filler cap in whilst running & it doesn't move, my plugs were fouled but I've no clue how long they have been in there, I'm running valvoline XLD plus 20w50 & it's still using oil. I'm going to try the suggested gulf western oil & see how I go but my question is, what was the outcome in you situation?
Cheers
Mat

[phuma]

Discobaker - first an independent did an 'in-car' job (they all suggested this) that entailed hone, new rings, new pistons, heads engineered. They however succeeded in making my problem a 1000 times worse. The big oil use was past the rings.

In the end I had to have the block resleeved, and it was basically a complete rebuild - this was done at another independent...

[Discobaker]

Discobaker - first an independent did an 'in-car' job (they all suggested this) that entailed hone, new rings, new pistons, heads engineered. They however succeeded in making my problem a 1000 times worse. The big oil use was past the rings.

In the end I had to have the block resleeved, and it was basically a complete rebuild - this was done at another independent...

Thanks for the reply mate, hopefully I can get away with just using a particular type of oil:)
Thank Christ this thing is still under warranty.
Cheers mate
Mat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

how can you hone something, put new pistons and rings in and still use oil?

[mike 90 RR]

how can you hone something, put new pistons and rings in and still use oil?

The sleeve was worn out / 2 much gap between piston & bore ...

(bore worn to a oval shape - verses - round rings will do it)

[PAT303]

If the bore is worn oval shaped in less than 200k I'd say it's running very rich and the excess fuel is washing the bores.If the thermostat was stuck open that could cause the problem. Pat

[phuma]

Yeah, it is sad but possible. Take on engine using oil already, don't properly spec it before attacking it with a handheld hone tool, then give it back to the customer pretending nothing is wrong even in face of many complaints of smoke and oil consumption. :mad:

If you have time and a strong stomach you can read the whole story here: Mini-rebuild to cure oil consumption (V8 p0rn inside!) - SA 4x4 Community Forum - The only forum for the offroad and 4x4 enthusiast (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php't=49475)

[Bradtot]

So I just read every post on the Sa forum what did u end up doing?
did u get any money back?
Was a very sad story
Brad:)

[phuma]

Brad - I took it to another place who did a full rebuild. No I did not get my money back :(

[Discobaker]

Brad - I took it to another place who did a full rebuild. No I did not get my money back :(

Mate was she blowing blue smoke?
As far as I understand, rings gone means oil burning means blue smoke?
Mine isn't blowing any at all except when in park and ya rev it to about 4000rpm which is to be expected considering mine rarely gets past 2750rpm. I haven't done the oil change yet to the Gulf Western & I'll do the plugs too to see what goes on there but the results will be interesting to say the least. It's taken me 2 motors, $7000 & 12 months and it's running like a dream except for the oil consumption. Temperamental B^*%h!!

[phuma]

Yeah, the smoke was blueish. Had it in droves on overrun, on hard accelleration etc. Would have thought it to be the valves guides, but the amount of oil it used.... could only have been rings!

[mike 90 RR]

As far as I understand, rings gone means oil burning means blue smoke?

Mine isn't blowing any at all except when in park and ya rev it to about 4000rpm

I haven't done the oil change yet to the Gulf Western

You could benefit from doing a wet / dry compression test .... The Gulf Western for "older motors" is great for "naturally old" motors .. But no good at fixing broken oil rings

[Discobaker]

You could benefit from doing a wet / dry compression test .... The Gulf Western for "older motors" is great for "naturally old" motors .. But no good at fixing broken oil rings

Will do, it's hard trying to eliminate possible causes when you've got no history at all on the heart of your truck. Valve stem seals & guides were done when the heads were off about a month ago so, trusting the guy that did the work??? Hopefully it has actually been done.
Cheers mate
How much is a reasonable amount to expect for a wet/dry compression test?
I've got zero blow back with motor running & oil cap sitting in position not screwed In as suggested previously?

[mike 90 RR]

. It's taken me 2 motors, $7000 & 12 months and it's running like a dream except for the oil consumption.

Considering the amount of $ you have invested in this ride .... I'ld prefer a knowledgeable answer from a Brains Trust member


For starters ... Find out if you have a High or a Low compression motor ... The compression ratio is stamped on the side of the block
Confirm and post up the Cubic size of the motor

Do the compression test and Post up the numbers ..... and hopefully someone can give you a qualified interpretation


Cheers
Mike

[PhilipA]

Yes, and tell us a bit more about what "using oil " means.
Regards Philip A

[Discobaker]

Yes, and tell us a bit more about what "using oil " means.
Regards Philip A

It doesn't leak onto the ground, all the underside of the car is clean, doesn't blow any smoke, check the dipstick after a 100km run & I've gotta put between 100-200mls of oilin to bring it back up to the full mark on the dipstick.
I'll get the numbers up asap, thanks for the interest guys, much appreciated:)

[mike 90 RR]

Mate was she blowing blue smoke?

Mine isn't blowing any at all except when in park and ya rev it to about 4000rpm

This bit I interpreted as "she burns oil & blows blue smoke out the exhaust pipe when free reving at 4k"



Might be the thin oil is just getting past the oil ring .... and the Gulf Western for older engine mix might help out


Mine has done 100thou k's on it, and still going strong (currently 321k on the clock) ... Oil pressure gauge still shows 25psi on idle and 35psi at 2500 rpm

Also ... my oil pump gears have been changed (New) and are also only 100thou k's old


Best of luck
Mike

[PhilipA]

So it is using 1-2 litres per 1000Kms.
My answer to you is the same as to Phuma, and I have no joy in seeing that I was correct.
You have a major problem not just valve guides as even without seals guides will rarely leak more than say 1 litre in 5KK.

If you have had rings done , I would suggest that your bores are glazed.

If not you need new rings or an overhaul, as the rest of the bottom end is probably quite worn. This is pretty rare a sthe bottom ends will usually go bulk K if looked after ie oil changed.

Regards Philip A

[Discobaker]

CR 8.23:1 is what is stamped on the passenger side of the motor, is this the number that deems if it's a high or low compression motor?

[PhilipA]

CR 8.23:1 is what is stamped on the passenger side of the motor, is this the number that deems if it's a high or low compression motor?
\
Low compression as are all in OZ except 82-85 RRC and very late D2a .
Regards Philip A

[Discobaker]

Cheers Mate :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Dont be too concerned DBaker,,
the difference is 8hp and 8cpl,,,;)

[Discobaker]

Dont be too concerned DBaker,,
the difference is 8hp and 8cpl,,,;)

Feeling better by the minute :)

[Discobaker]

Ok, so I rang my LR mech to enquire about a wet/dry comp test, he asked what the symptoms were & I told him I was thinking of changing to the gulf western oil & he suggested trying that first, so I did the oil change today, pulled the breather hose that hooks up to the throttle body & it was clear. The opposite side however was blocked with this piece of plastic.
Is it supposed to be there?
I've no idea where it's from & air was barely able to pass through the hose, it was caught right down near the rocka cover.
Any ideas guys?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/953.jpg

[mike 90 RR]

The opposite side however was blocked with this piece of plastic.
Is it supposed to be there?


On the drivers side rocker cover .. that hose is connected to a "tin can" called a fire trap ... Is this the spot you mean??


No plastic in that hose ... Should be clear

Unscrew the fire trap and clean it out in some Kero ... should have some stainless steel mesh inside it

[Discobaker]

On the drivers side rocker cover .. that hose is connected to a "tin can" called a fire trap ... Is this the spot you mean??


No plastic in that hose ... Should be clear

Unscrew the fire trap and clean it out in some Kero ... should have some stainless steel mesh inside it

Drivers side is the breather in question yes, where the hose connects up to the top of the valley cover sort of, there's a plastic connector, one end screws in & the other end the hose connects to. I found the plastic in the opposite end down near the rocker cover. I've cleaned it all out but found no wire mesh? It seems to be idling smoother now?

[mike 90 RR]

Drivers side is the breather in question yes,


.... Can you post up a photo of all the breather line + the connection at the drivers side rocker cover ....

[Discobaker]

.... Can you post up a photo of all the breather line + the connection at the drivers side rocker cover ....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/900.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/901.jpg
First pic is where the line hooks up to the rocker cover & is the end I found the piece of plastic in.
Second pic is the hose on the left where it connects above the valley cover.
Cheers for the reply

[mike 90 RR]

First pic is where the line hooks up to the rocker cover & is the end I found the piece of plastic in.
Second pic is the hose on the left where it connects above the valley cover.
Cheers for the reply

.... Your pictures of the manifold is not what I was expecting .... Can you post a overall photo of the motor, to make it clearer on which 1 you have

Can you also tell me which car / year you have ... as I have been assuming 3.9 V8 in a D1


I believe you have the Thor manifold .... So my comments of how it hooks up on a fire trap may (will) be wrong ...

[Discobaker]

Sorry mate, mine is the 4L V8, 2000 model.
Thanks heaps for the help.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/897.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/898.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/11/899.jpg
First pic-motor overall
Second pic-shows where breather on drivers side hooks up as per last post.
Third- shows the throttle body, breather hose is underneath, about 6" long & bends in an "S" shape to go from rocker cover to throttle body.

[mike 90 RR]

Sorry mate, mine is the 4L V8, 2000 model.

First pic-motor overall


Cheers for that

I can't comment any further about your thor manifold ... outa my league ... I can only suggest that the plastic grommet does belong in that hose and replaces the fire trap .... but was blocked from oil / carbon ... rendering the venting of the (motor) block useless, and is giving your motor grief

On a positive note :) ..... I do know that a blocked breather vent of the motor can cause excess oil consumption .... (the motor pressurises) ....


My suggestion is to clean the grommet and reinstall it ..... But seek clarification on this subject from others


Cheers
Mike

[Discobaker]

Mike, your a champ, thankyou very much, I'll wait & see if anyone else has any ideas about the little plastic UFO :)
Take care bud

[mike 90 RR]

I'll wait & see if anyone else has any ideas about the little plastic UFO :)


.... Now that I've thought about it....

Clean and reinstall the UFO grommet .... I'm 9 outa 10 certain that it replaces the fire trap and limits the amount that vents and also stops the vent from sucking the oil out your motor from the rocker cover and shoving it down your manifold

It was just blocked


.... Hopefully some else will clarify ....

[Discobaker]

I'll leave it for a couple of runs & see if I end up with oil in the line, if I do then I know it's supposed to be there.
I can't understand why one side would suck oil & not the other because if the other side was to suck it'd fill the throttle body housing with oil?

[mike 90 RR]

I'll leave it for a couple of runs & see if I end up with oil in the line


No .... I would not do that .... :(





Clean and reinstall it ..... You Don't want excess oil in the manifold .....

I recon the UFO grommet restricts and will provide enough vacuum to vent the motor .... Too much vacuum, and it will suck oil


Ask the LRA chap you have been speaking to

[Discobaker]

No .... I would not do that .... :(





Clean and reinstall it ..... You Don't want excess oil in the manifold .....

I recon the UFO grommet restricts and will provide enough vacuum to vent the motor .... Too much vacuum, and it will suck oil


Ask the LRA chap you have been speaking to

I reckon I've read your mind, I cleaned up the UFO & it does look like something that should be there to restrict the airflow so he's back in.
Thanks again mate

[Discobaker]

She's going back, still using oil even after the change to Gulf Western & a breather hose cleanout. Looks like a bottom end rebuild:(
Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
Mat

[Discobaker]

Ok, here goes,
Took the truck back for bottom end attention a week ago, got a phone call the following day to say they've decided not to rebuild the bottom end. Instead they've put in another motor, done a few more kms but has a full service history from melbourne city LR, got the books too, checked the numbers of course. Was hesitant but at the end of the day, it's not my cash to spend as it's all under warranty. Drove the two hours up to the workshop to pick my girl up & when I got there, wasn't happy with a noise coming from one of the pulleys, pulled all the easy to get to ones off & changed them Over with the ones from previous motor as we knew they were good. Noise still there afterwards leaving only the water pump & the idler beside it unchanged. Mechs offsider said, drive it home & see how it goes, maybe it's just a bit of air in the power steering system, maybe it'll work itself through. Drove away, 10 mins down the road, car is covered in oil, rear window can't be seen through, pull to the side of the freeway, oil light comes on, shut down, ring mech. Tow organised, 1.5hrs later, back at workshop, diagnose an oil cooler pipe had blown off. Fix that, change remaining pulley, water pump left & no gasket, so I get back in the hire car, head home about 7:30pm, been going since 1am (DiscoBAKER).
Wasn't supposed to be at work till 4am today, got a phone call from my offsider that does the midnight shift after I'd been in bed for about an hour, he's crook, can't make it, get up, back to work, 11pm, work through, get the call from mech, at about 11am, cars ready, water pump changed, all set, two hours travel, get to mechs at about 1:30pm, have a listen, look, under, over, etc. Happy, drive away, ten kms down the road, gearbox starts to slip, no drive, no warning lights, over to the side of the freeway we go again, ring mech, half hour later, diagnosis,auto trans cooler pipe blown off. Roadside auto trans service number 1. Hose reconnected, fill with fluid, check other lines, all good, drive away, he didn't even have a chance to get back to his workshop & I was on the phone again, 15mins, he's back, same hose, so, he pulls the little clips on the inside of the hose connector out a little more, clips it on, all good, does the same with he other trans cooler line, pulls the little clips out, can't get it to go back on, hour & a half later, gets it done, roadside trans service number 2 complete. Walked in the door 15 mins ago, I'm knackered.
Bed time now I've had my vent, no use venting to the GLW. She don't get it.
Motor sounds like a much smoother happier V8.
Cross ur fingers for me, thanks to all who gave their two cents worth. Good night.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

:Thump:

gawd I hope thats the end of it,,,

[mike 90 RR]

.... For all the troubles ..... I'ld give the mechanic 9 outa 10 for perseverance

:eek:

[Discobaker]

.... For all the troubles ..... I'ld give the mechanic 9 outa 10 for perseverance

:eek:

I'd give him an 11, he's a top bloke with alot of patience. Fab is his name, owner of Ennio Motors East Keilor in Melb (plug)

[Discobaker]

:Thump:

gawd I hope thats the end of it,,,

So do I mate, so do I :)