Rust Protection

[wisey110]

Looking at some sort of rust protection, and before i do anything thought i'd ask what everone else does/has done. I know, the easiest way is to take someone elses 4b.:D
So far i've come up with Lanotec lanolin as a spray on. But there is a thousand Electronic ones out there.
Feed back please.
Lance

[Scallops]

Electronic protection is bogus on something that is not submerged in water -eg. your vehicle - lanotec, fish oil - any spray on stuff is as good as anything. Some places can spray a black tar stuff on - I had this done to mine - needs a touch up each year.

[JDNSW]

I was going to suggest "move west of the Great Divide", but having checked where Bowenville is on the map, I suggest you should not have much of a rust problem.

John

[scott oz]

Hope this isn’t digressing the thread but since it seems to be a general rust question.

I recall reading that the bulkhead of the defenders is a double skin which is difficult to treat? One solution was to drill a hole in the outer engine bay skin and then spray a fish oil / anti rust product inside. I seem to recall that one suggestion was to fill it with oil and let it “seep” out.

Anyone ever heard of this or done it? OR does my memory fail me. (wouldn’t be the first time) :angel:

[wisey110]

Yeah i'm west of the divide. Not a hell of alot of sea water out here, hang on what the hells water(hassn't rained here for about 4 months). lol.
I get to fraser and straddy and any other beachs or islands i can find often enough. Thought it'd be better to have somthing to help with rust than nothing at all. Think i'll spray lanolin on the underside fairly often, pretty cheap for what it does. Supposed to make mud and anything else that sticks come off a bit easier. We got a few cattle might help to wash the crap off.

[Reads90]

I would not worry about it too Much . You can take precation when you go to the beach and spend some time cleaning the car afterwards.

But belive me Aussie realy don't know what rust is. These cars are made and designed in the Uk where they put salt on the roads for 4 months of the year. You clean your car on a monday and then drive tpo work and the side of the car is covered with a film of white salt. It is worse than driving down the beach

As for the electronic devices that they sell. Two things make me very warry about them ,
1st is the Uk has a mayor problem with rust and is the main reason most of the cars in the Uk are alot newer than ones in Aus , and if these worked really well then why are they not sold in the Uk or Europe. Untill i came here i had never heard of them .

Also I once worked at the Southside Land Rover dealership in Brisbane and the chap from one of the companies that sells these came to us to make us sell them with new cars. As i had not really heard of them before i was interested how they worked. He told me they put a negative charge though the chassis. At which point i said to him, that the battery does that anyway, He then walked of and would not talk to me for the rest of the day. BTW at the dealership if you sold this with the car you got another $70 in your pocket

The best you can do is underseal the bottom of the car. Some do it with used engine oil and spray the underneth. Or you can buy wax oil which you spray all under the car. This is what is done in the Uk and is tried and tested to work


BTW i had a 1996 disco (lived in Aus at Bridie Island most of its life ) and a 1996 90 import from Uk . The 90 was rebuilt and resprayed 6 years ago. Underneth the two looked totally differnat. The 90 has alot of more surface rust on the chassis whereas the disco was still in the black paint that the chassis came out the factory with . The bolts on the 90 was always fun to undo if needed whereas the Disco they came stragiht of with too much hassle. Same if you look at a RRC pretty much all 1990 RRc in the uk will be on the second or thired rear top tailgate and 2 botoom one. With have the sills welded up and pretty much totaly replaced with bar and weld, And the front inner wings with be replaced the same as the Sills. Could not belive my eyes when i first saw a RRC here

[gatesy]

I thought the oil leaks were built in rust protection :D :wasntme:

[Reads90]

I thought the oil leaks were built in rust protection :D :wasntme:

well that was always a joke in the Uk that Land Rovers do two things, give themselves an oil change and rust protect themselves

[isuzurover]

But belive me Aussie realy don't know what rust is.

I beg to differ. I was at a govt auction once where they had 2 4x4s ex Qld National Parks. Only 2 years old! But they had spent their entire life on moreton/fraser.

One was a 130, and you could pull handfulls of rust off the chassis. The other was a cruiser ute - which looked in better shape, but the rear axle housing was about to fall apart due to rust. Both vehicles had maybe another 12 months life in them, tops. I have never seen a vehicle rust that quickly in Europe.

But I agree the average car in Europe is much rustier than the average car here.

[Hally]

This is what mine looked like


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/1170.jpg

I bought this car when it was three years old had it for another 2 years and found that hole and a big crack

dont know what the previous owner did to it but I had to replaced the chassis which lead to the V8 conversion:D
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/1171.jpg

I now respray my car every 6 months with lanolin seems to be doing ok i've had the car for 4 years now with no sign of rust and been to the beach 4 times

[disco2hse]

Lanolin, fish oil and wax oil are all good, so too would be Penetrol except you'd need a mortgage to pay for it (would probably be the best though).

I spray and paint on Dinitrol which has the benefit of soaking in through coatings of dust left after the bottom has been water blasted prior to application. Any time I do work underneath I paint the exposed metal parts with more Dinitrol. Other than that bolts and nuts get a treatment of copper grease before tightening.

I have found that those areas I have not been able to get at in the past, like behind the petrol tank, have gathered surface rust through the rubbish LR paint. If you really want to go crazy, remove tanks and get right in behind them with whatever you use, squirt the stuff into the drain holes in the chassis, and squirt it into gaps at each end of the tub frames (assuming you are talking about a Deffie or Series).

Alan

[wisey110]

I'm going with Lanolin only coz its cheap and easy to get here. Next time i wash it i'll give it ago see how long it takes before it needs redoing. And i guess to be on the safe side everytime before and after a beach trip.

[Hally]

There are two problems with lanolin. One your car smells like sheep (I wont make any kiwi jokes). Two when you go on the beach the sand sticks all over it like a fat kid on a smarty when I return from beach trips I usually go to car lovers and give it a good going over but its very difficult to remove the sand and after about 6 or 7 car washes with a high pressure hose the lanolin starts to wear off so I give it another spray like I said in previous post around every 6 months just a bit of a touch up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Electronic protection is bogus on something that is not submerged in water -eg. your vehicle - lanotec, fish oil - any spray on stuff is as good as anything. Some places can spray a black tar stuff on - I had this done to mine - needs a touch up each year.

Look... I'm not going to say that the electronic type works. However the submerged in water bit isn't quite right. You are confusing cathodic protection with capacitive protection. The later doesn't require the body to be immersed in water whereas the former does. All the ERPS work in the latter fashion.

My Father was a corrosion chemist. Unfortunately he wasn't around to ask when we were considering it. So, I phoned a friend in the corrosion association who had done some limited testing of these devices.

He said that he was surprised at how they worked and the voltages involved, and explained the theoretical basis for how they are supposed to work. He said that he thought that they "might work".

I did some more digging and got some pretty positive anecdotal reviews on them. Due to the low cost we decided to give one a go.

We've been to the beach many times with our car, and at our last dealer service where they did the corrosion inspection they could see no evidence of rust. We got MR to check as well and they said there was no evidence that the car had even been to the beach. :) Unlike many defenders even all the bolts are still shiny. :)

We do all the other good things like very thorough washing after beach trips, and I usually put some form of oil on the underside of the car before heading up there. Our car is still reasonably new, but so far so good - touch wood :)

[Scallops]

Look... I'm not going to say that the electronic type works. However the submerged in water bit isn't quite right. You are confusing cathodic protection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection) with capacitive protection. The later doesn't require the body to be immersed in water whereas the former does. All the ERPS work in the latter fashion.

My Father was a corrosion chemist. Unfortunately he wasn't around to ask when we were considering it. So, I phoned a friend in the corrosion association who had done some limited testing of these devices.

He said that he was surprised at how they worked and the voltages involved, and explained the theoretical basis for how they are supposed to work. He said that he thought that they "might work".

I did some more digging and got some pretty positive anecdotal reviews on them. Due to the low cost we decided to give one a go.

We've been to the beach many times with our car, and at our last dealer service where they did the corrosion inspection they could see no evidence of rust. We got MR to check as well and they said there was no evidence that the car had even been to the beach. :) Unlike many defenders even all the bolts are still shiny. :)

We do all the other good things like very thorough washing after beach trips, and I usually put some form of oil on the underside of the car before heading up there. Our car is still reasonably new, but so far so good - touch wood :)

Hello Capt. :) - I stand corrected on the getting the 2 methods confused - quite right. But I still see the "capacitive protection" concept as less than convincing :D The only real references I can find to these systems are from the producers of such devices, like this one...

CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection System - Corrosion Control (http://www.counteractrust.com/)

Be that as it may, allow me to make a few observations (and remember, I'm a Geophysicist, not a chemist!) ...

From what I can gather, it is supposed to work like this - An electric current is applied to the metal object to be protected - in this case, our vehicles, by treating the metal object as the negative plate of a capacitor. This is achieved by a capacitive coupling between the metal object, a dielectric material and a positive plate. Pulses of direct current are provided to the positive plate. The vehicle acts as a common ground with the means for providing the pulses coming from it's battery.

If this is exactly how it works, then there is no net DC current generated - that is the nature of an insulator. Therefore, during the pulse, there would be protection, but during the absense of the pulse, the bias is opposite. At best, this would cancel the effect of the pulse phase,; at worst, it might even be sufficent to cause corrosion beyond that driven by oxidation differentials in the metal - actually encouraging rust! :eek:


I'd use lanolin!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hello Capt. :) - I stand corrected on the getting the 2 methods confused - quite right. But I still see the "capacitive protection" concept as less than convincing :D The only real references I can find to these systems are from the producers of such devices, like this one...

CounterAct Electronic Rust Protection System - Corrosion Control (http://www.counteractrust.com/)

Be that as it may, allow me to make a few observations (and remember, I'm a Geophysicist, not a chemist!) ...

From what I can gather, it is supposed to work like this - An electric current is applied to the metal object to be protected - in this case, our vehicles, by treating the metal object as the negative plate of a capacitor. This is achieved by a capacitive coupling between the metal object, a dielectric material and a positive plate. Pulses of direct current are provided to the positive plate. The vehicle acts as a common ground with the means for providing the pulses coming from it's battery.

If this is exactly how it works, then there is no net DC current generated - that is the nature of an insulator. Therefore, during the pulse, there would be protection, but during the absense of the pulse, the bias is opposite. At best, this would cancel the effect of the pulse phase,; at worst, it might even be sufficent to cause corrosion beyond that driven by oxidation differentials in the metal - actually encouraging rust! :eek:


I'd use lanolin!
Like I said.. I'm not so sure about it. It's actually AC, and the voltages are quite high.

I think anyone who bought one of those and then forgot about the rest of the techniques would be asking for trouble. However, as part of a strategy I'm happy with it. I think I paid about $400 for mine. I also paid $300 to have the thing rust proofed, and most of that has worn or fallen off so I don't think its that that expensive.

We're about to go to fraser and as mentioned above I've just bought 5 litres of lanolin and will hit the underside this weekend. :)

One of the stories that impressed me - a friends family owns half of hamilton island. They had 3 similar vehicles - all with similar preparation. One had an ERPS on it. It lasted 2 years longer than any of the other vehicles. Whats more, when they got a new vehicle they took the ERPS off the old vehicle and put it on the new one. Within 6 months the old one was no longer serviceable. Interesting - hey?

[clean32]

Nothing wrong with rust

we all know what you get when you mix rust and aluminum, just add a tungsten fuse LOL

[lardy]

Hope this isn’t digressing the thread but since it seems to be a general rust question.

I recall reading that the bulkhead of the defenders is a double skin which is difficult to treat? One solution was to drill a hole in the outer engine bay skin and then spray a fish oil / anti rust product inside. I seem to recall that one suggestion was to fill it with oil and let it “seep” out.

Anyone ever heard of this or done it? OR does my memory fail me. (wouldn’t be the first time) :angel:

My understanding was coming from LR country where there is more salt on the roads than there is in the sea, you drill a pilot hole in the door post from the backside, and fill it with a quality anti-corrosion product such as waxoyl or wurths these are designer oils and so do not just coat like fish oil they have overlap technology built into them, cap the pilot hole with a grommet .
For example should you have two tightly fitting plates waxoyl or wurths anti-corrosion products will not only cover the surface but find its way into a seam and penetrate 10-15 mm either side on the untreated side.
I am going to do this to my replacement bulkhead (next job) also my new doors when they come.

[disco2hse]

My understanding was coming from LR country where there is more salt on the roads than there is in the sea, you drill a pilot hole in the door post from the backside, and fill it with a quality anti-corrosion product such as waxoyl or wurths these are designer oils and so do not just coat like fish oil they have overlap technology built into them, cap the pilot hole with a grommet .
For example should you have two tightly fitting plates waxoyl or wurths anti-corrosion products will not only cover the surface but find its way into a seam and penetrate 10-15 mm either side on the untreated side.
I am going to do this to my replacement bulkhead (next job) also my new doors when they come.

Exactly. The stuff works and works well. On the same vehicle where I have missed getting in with the Dinitrol (just a brand of waxoyl type stuff) there is clearly more surface rust. Even those bits that I had done previously and that had been scraped clean for some reason are still provided with protection because the stuff is self healing for the reason that Lardy pointed out. Once it has formed a barrier or crust it loses any residual stickiness unless it is scraped or scratched off.

The only stuff that I would think that might be better is Penetrol (http://www.floodaustralia.net/products/penetrol.htm). There's fact sheet here (http://www.floodaustralia.net/factfiles/penetrol.pdf). Normally you mix the stuff with primer and/or top coat so rather than a protective membrane over the top of the surface, this stuff needs to be applied when it is painted.

Alan

[lardy]

Exactly. The stuff works and works well. On the same vehicle where I have missed getting in with the Dinitrol (just a brand of waxoyl type stuff) there is clearly more surface rust. Even those bits that I had done previously and that had been scraped clean for some reason are still provided with protection because the stuff is self healing for the reason that Lardy pointed out. Once it has formed a barrier or crust it loses any residual stickiness unless it is scraped or scratched off.

The only stuff that I would think that might be better is Penetrol (http://www.floodaustralia.net/products/penetrol.htm). There's fact sheet here (http://www.floodaustralia.net/factfiles/penetrol.pdf). Normally you mix the stuff with primer and/or top coat so rather than a protective membrane over the top of the surface, this stuff needs to be applied when it is painted.

Alan
Further to this Alan, the sticky stuff that land rover used to apply (and the british army used to barm on the undersides of vehicles) has been proved to not adhere so well and basically allows water to trap between the chassis and the bitumin type coating and aid the rotting out of your precious and expensive chassis, although i understand wurths underbody shultz is ok

[bent]

Howdy

I work for a Gov Dept in QLD and I manage a number of LC'S that are on the beach for the life of their lease, we use one of the electronic products plus a septone product of which the name escapes me, it is a tar based product. So far we are really happy with the results on the chassis etc and is resistant to sand blasting the under carriage gets.

However I think if we did nothing other than wash the cars down every day, I don't think that the chassis under body would be significantly affected (other than surface rust), for us it is the things that you cant protect that die, things such as alternators, starters, electrical plugs etc. Interesting our oldest vehicle (16 months) has the most rust damage to the bulbar and the cnr of the door panel where it meets the cnr of the quarter glass.

I can reccomend the septone product which is similar to a number of other brands (tar based), but my biggest tip is to NOT drive in the wet sand areas on the beach and NOT to drive through the ocean. (much like you see in a certain 4WD magazine on a regular bassis)

And above all, wash the car as soon as possible, use low pressure high volume not high pressure low volume ie gurnie.

Good luck,

Ben

[buzz66]

Fish Oil for chassis.

Tectyl in a spray can for everything else.

Simple

[wisey110]

Went to super cheap the other day and got some lanolin and another product they had soi'll give it ago on either side and go from there.
Don't mind if it "Smells like sheep", i live on a farm it's got to be better then cattle...

If anyone knows the name of that tar stuff post a reply i'd like to give that ago

Lance

[lardy]

I'm going with Lanolin only coz its cheap and easy to get here. Next time i wash it i'll give it ago see how long it takes before it needs redoing. And i guess to be on the safe side everytime before and after a beach trip.

cheap it may well be, effective! who knows sheep don't do science.
Cost of a replacement chassis only 1500 quid plus shipping lol

[disco2hse]

cheap it may well be, effective! who knows sheep don't do science.
Cost of a replacement chassis only 1500 quid plus shipping lol

Yeah but how many rusty sheep have you seen :eek:

Alan

[spudfan]

I hand painted my chassis with a brand of thick black metal paint. I gave it three coats, put waterproof tape over the holes, gave it another coat and then waxoiled inside the chassis. I put car wax on the rear cross member and keep it polished. With this method you can still see the chassis and keep an eye on it. The chassis is easily hosed down or occasionally cleaned with a sponge or brush to check it. It is a joy to see how it sheds water. Each to their own. Time will tell.

[dickyjoe]

So should you paint the chassis first of lanolin it first?

[spudfan]

Don't think the paint would take to the Lanolin.

[disco2hse]

So should you paint the chassis first of lanolin it first?

Paint first, and if you are going to do that you need to prepare the chassis properly before applying the paint other wise you are creating conditions where water can be trapped in crevices and cracks.

If you use one of the newer two pot paints, for example, you may not need to use an additional protective coating like lanolin. Some paint formulations provide an impermeable layer.

Alan

[Bigbird]

Guys if you want a real good rust protection for your chassis you cannot beat good old diesel,just take a look at the fuel tanks on my truck,yes dust sticks to it but thats about it,it would be the best protection you could use for the price outlay,i sprayed my entire chassis with diesel in a 10 litre pump up spray bottle,when you hose it the dust falls off but there is always a nice oily residue that water beads off,for all you guys that drive your cars on the beach you deserve it,you would never catch me driving my landy on the beach.....wes.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Guys if you want a real good rust protection for your chassis you cannot beat good old diesel,just take a look at the fuel tanks on my truck,yes dust sticks to it but thats about it,it would be the best protection you could use for the price outlay,i sprayed my entire chassis with diesel in a 10 litre pump up spray bottle,when you hose it the dust falls off but there is always a nice oily residue that water beads off,for all you guys that drive your cars on the beach you deserve it,you would never catch me driving my landy on the beach.....wes.

Hmmm.... I take that on board. But IMHO you're missing out on one of the best aspects of 4wd ownership. :o

[lardy]

i am with Wes....everyone tells me i should go hooning down the beach with my landy....why would i ? i want it to last.
Although the method should be hose down steam clean and waxoyl after beach larking...but i fear that i would get complacent and don't want to buy a new chassis just yet, more to this i suspect that my landy may have copped some abuse in the past now it's getting some love.

[wisey110]

I don't really get the to beach that much, but when you got islands like fraser and straddy just 3hrs away they are really good spots to drive around and camp. I had a Nissan Navara ST-X i took that over to fraser no bloody way would i do that again, but a landy eats it up, its not the beach part thats awesome. Its the tracks leading off the beach that are the fun bit. Plus on the farm here the mud sticks like glue, anything that helps get it off is a good thing.

[Gav110]

I have been mulling over this issue again as I get ready to take delivery of the new Puma. The weight of opinion is clearly with Lanolin/Waxoyl type spraying, but living near a beach I'm also concerned about the bits that can't be easily reached, and the engine parts (alternator etc).

I came across this article, and just wondered if anyone has any specific experience of this product in Australia - given the Aussie references?

Electronic Rust Protection Systems for Hummer & Land Rover from CounterAct Corrosion Protection - The CounterAct anti-corrosion system, which employs the vehicle's battery requires no sprays or co (http://www.off-road.com/offroad/New+Products/Electronic-Rust-Protection-Systems-for-Hummer-amp-/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/388845)

Thanks Gav

[disco2hse]

Been discussed on this thread. Read some of the earlier posts.

[Gav110]

Been discussed on this thread. Read some of the earlier posts.

Yes mate, I read the earlier references...

My interest is in the experience of anyone who has any personal, practical experience of a product like CounterAct or similar ERP systems having had it installed in their vehicles for some time.

I have seen some interesting posts from commercial users. Just looking if there were any updates from those considering it or who may have fitted it some time back?

[Bundalene]

For corrosion protection inside the Defender chassis I use a product called Sikagard 554, which is a wax like product. The last lot I bought - in Jan this year was $25 for 1 litre container. It is available at smash repair suppliers or automotive paint shops. I find this excellent. To apply inside the chassis you will need a pot gun with an extendable nozzle - relative inexpensive from Supercheap - also need an air compressor. The chassis will take about 2 litres and another litre in the doors, B,C pillar etc.

This is a link to the product.
http://www.sika.com.au/cmi/pdfs/TDS_Sikagard551552554.pdf

Defender firewalls are notorious for rusting. Below is a photo our car, which we fully re-built from the ground up. The pic shows a 2 year old, 10,000kms on the clock Defender firewall. The rust is forming between the spot welded upper panel section.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8694/april1065.jpg (http://img251.imageshack.us/i/april1065.jpg/)

Erich

[mark2]

Lanolin, fishoil, tectly 506 etc on the inside of all cavities - chassis, rear crossmember, firewall, door frames, body pillars. The only way to really get it in there fully is to get a proper rust proofing gun with a long wand.
Dont put it on the outside of anything - sand will stick to it forever.

Penetrol is great for painting on surface rust prior to painting - stops the rust coming through the paint.
I prefer a good quality enamel paint on the underside exterior because sand doesnt stick to it. Landrover chassis paint is generally very thin. In any case, the real damage is done by rust forming on the inside of cavities and seams. Surface rust on the outside of a chassis is easily treated with penetrol and a spray can. Tar based products can trap moisture and hide rust until its too late. Tar on the chassis also tells a prospective buyer that the vehicle has probably done beach work.
Diesel is OK on the outside of the chassis is OK because it can be easily cleaned off with degreaser but it will eat suspension bushes.

Get fanatical with the hose after the beach. As someone else said, volume, not pressure. Most people think a quick spray underneath at the local carwash is enough. Its not. Drive through a shallow freshwater creek or river if you have the opportunity

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well I have a three part approach.

1. Mist lanotec through all cavities (chassis, doors) yearly.
2. Spend probably 5 hours washing after a beach trip. I usually spend about 3 hours on chassis and washing the exterior. I spend a couple of hours the following weekend doing the chassis again and hosing the sand out of the inside.
3. Fitted an ERP. I have a couplertec.

Our car is an 05 model and has been to Fraser many times (usually twice a year).

So far, so good. (TOUCH WOOD). There are no signs of corrosion. Even the bolts for the doors are still shiny. :)

I think the ERPS I use probably works. I have heard many stories of people disconnecting them and having corrosion suddenly start appearing everywhere.

The problem is, unless you have two vehicles used side by side it's always hard to know...

[roverrescue]

Wow!
I go down the beach 3-4 times a week to walk the dogs or flick a lure...
Plenty of "natural" LR rust protection but certainly dont wash the bloody thing, thats what the wet season is for isnt it?
Maybe I should splash a bit of dieso about? Seems my style!

S

[gmeddy]

i've used a product called Fertan a few times on an earlier vehicle with a bit of body rust. its been a few years since i treated it and never painted over it or re-treated it, and the rust has never come back to life!
it smells like vinegar, is dark brown, and comes in a little spray bottle, probably about 200ml i think.
when it leaks out of the bottle and is left for a while, it ends up all sticky and gooy, so it seems to be some sort of oil based product i guess. the bottle says it's all natural with no harmfull chemicals in it. all i know is it works great!

[JohnF]

Years ago I liked Fish-oil [but it smells bad], and then painted over the fish oil with Bitchumen paint, a thick tar type paint. Bitchumen paint was once made for rain water gutters, but now days gutters are color-bond steel, and this may no longer be available.

Also a product called ColdGal [as in galvanising] is great. Most welding workshops that I know do use this Coldgal. But it is very thick, and you will use a lot, and it is very expensive, and may not suit spots like inside of the chassis, and other hard to reach spots. Coldgal hides holes and defects as well, which is another reason why welding workshops use it.