V8 slipped liners

[2 rocks]

Hi all

I saw a post somewhere, where someone with a slipped liner/s on a D2 had had them 'pinned' for a little under $1k.

I've since been told this can't be done? So...

Can they or can't they?
Who's right?
What actually happens with 'pinning' anyway?

TIA
Cheers
Mike

[Blknight.aus]

its essentially hammering or peening a locating notch over from the deck material. Doable but not a real smart idea, remachining the block to take top hat liners is a much smarter idea.

[2 rocks]

Thanks Dave!
Was just hoping there might be a way out that didn't involve a $5k rebuild, as I assume even a "good" second hand motor might end up with the same issue...
Bum!
Cheers
Mike

[tempestv8]

I have had my motor top hatted, as I had not come across this "pinning" method.

Shame the top hat process wasn't done at the factory from day 1. ;)

Does anyone know if other manufacturers also top hat their liners or are all engines which have iron sleeves lined in the same way as the Rover V8, and it's just bad luck when a liner slips? :(

[p38arover]

I have had my motor top hatted, as I had not come across this "pinning" method.

Shame the top hat process wasn't done at the factory from day 1. ;)

Does anyone know if other manufacturers also top hat their liners or are all engines which have iron sleeves lined in the same way as the Rover V8, and it's just bad luck when a liner slips? :(

Mine was also top-hatted.

Re liner install in new engines, I was watch "How it's Made" on TV a couple of days ago and it showed an alloy V6 being made. The liners were inserted in the sand mould and the alloy cast around it. Those liners would, I assume, never move.

[scarry]

How common is this slipped liners problem in later D2's.?

My brother is thinking of getting an 03 or 04 D2 & looking for a petrol.

[101RRS]

Primarily is the result of a over heated engine.

Garry

[Freestyler]

The liners slipping in the rover V8 only started happening when the left the 88.6mm bore and went to 94mm and is a result of the aluminium in the block being thinner but is caused by heat that doesn't show up on your temp gauge ( specific to 1 cylinder ). I would advise any one planning on using a 3.9, 4 or 4.6 to do this if it hasn't already been done if you want the reliability. the 3.5, 4.2 and 4.4 as far as I know had the 88.6 or 3.5inch bore which didn't suffer the same fate.

[2 rocks]

How common is this slipped liners problem in later D2's.?

My brother is thinking of getting an 03 or 04 D2 & looking for a petrol.

Hi Paul
As a Td5 owner for some years and not really paying attention, I'm now finding out - as Freestyler's said - that the V8's have a propensity for this! :mad:

The labour intensive nature of top-hatting/stepped liners makes it a relatively expensive exercise. The one I bought had the heads done - which I took to be a good thing - but I assume they'd had a look and gone. "Oops! We'll just pop this back together and keep our finger's crossed..."

So I'd at least recommend a TK test before your brother buys. I've been told if the reading goes into the yellow quickly, it's the head/s as you'd expect, but a slow change can indicate a slipped liner.

In my questioning, I also discovered that head gaskets these days are 'monotorque' - so no re-torqueing - I had hoped maybe that was the issue. :p
Cheers
Mike

[mike 90 RR]

that the V8's have a propensity for this! :mad:


Poor little ol rover V8 ... I'll go out on a limb in defence of it .... :D

The MAJORITY of V8 failures can be traced back to one basic thing ... poor maintenance

The time they play up, is when they get overheated ..... If you go to the trouble of doing the "right thing" and keep the radiator clean & healthy ... check all coolants hoses thermostats and listen for that marble sound under the dash .... Then all should be fine

The trouble with older second hand rides being suspect of being a Lemon, is due to the attitude of the previous owner ... and not the fault of the ride itself

For instance .... Summers on your door step ... How many folks with "older rides" have programmed in, and are gearing up for a major coolant service?

Flame away .....

Mike
:)

[RoverP6B]

Freestyler wrote,..
the 3.5, 4.2 and 4.4 as far as I know had the 88.6 or 3.5inch bore which didn't suffer the same fate.

Hello Freestyler,

The 4.2 litre engine that Land Rover fitted into the LSE Range Rover during the 1990s used the same block as the 3.9 litre engine ands runs the same bore ie 94.00mm bore.

3.9, 4.0 4.2 and 4.6 litre engines can all be effected by cracks behind the liners, thus dropped liners from being overheated. The permanent solution is having top hat liners fitted.

Ron.

[RRV80]

slight hi-jack here, i have a 3.9 and have been trying to track down a noise it has, it is not a lifter noise, to deep, but also doesnt sound like a bottom end noise either, not deep enough, it makes the noise when cold normal driving, and when it is warm under load, its not a ticking noise or a knocking, more of a tapping, and i know the motor has been overheated on a couple of occasions, mainly due to a dodgy viscous fan and a average radiator on hot days 4wding, i have been dreading it is a slipped liner in its early stages, its done 250,000km and i am thinking of doing a top end rebuild, freshen up the heads, new cam/lifters etc as the valley cover is leaking also, but i dont want to spend any money on the engine if i could be faced with liner issues later on, i'm going to stick it on the hoist again tommorow and see if i can pinpoint the source of the noise, im not too keen on the idea of a 2nd hand engine, mainly due to not knowing the history and it could happen again.

What are the best options re replaceing the engine, and of course bigger would be nice, but all comes down to the amount of money required.

[p38arover]

So I'd at least recommend a TK test before your brother buys. I've been told if the reading goes into the yellow quickly, it's the head/s as you'd expect, but a slow change can indicate a slipped liner.

They usually show up nothing on a RR V8 with a slipped liner. I know mine didn't.

I think a better test would be to use a borescope and look in each plug hole - especially the 4 inner cylinders.

[grumpybastard]

I know Range-Rov pin liners, apparently its an awful job with the motor still in the engine bay and the mechanics hate doing it.

I have no first hand experience on it, but i was having a look at a block that had been done when i was picking my D2 up after an LPG install on it.

Price from memory was about $800... for all 8 cylinders

Range-Rov Automotive (http://www.range-rov.com.au)

187 Rooks Rd, Vermont, Melb, Vic, 3133
Ph: (03) 9874-3111 Fax: (03) 9874-2133
workshop@range-rov.com.au

[p38arover]

I assume pinning them is only useful if the block hasn't already overheated and the liners moved.

[grumpybastard]

I assume pinning them is only useful if the block hasn't already overheated and the liners moved.

From my understanding they can be pinned once slipped... a couple of people on the forums have had it done.

I can find one post from russV82a

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/72474-pinning-slipped-liner-d2-v8-thoughts.html#post938339

[Traco]

Pinning the liners stops them from dropping but it doesn't stop the block from cracking behind them again and because there's not upper flange it won't prevent coolant escaping into the combustion chamber. It's really a band aid fix and it can be successful provided the block doesn't crack again.

[Grumndriva]

As someone who has personal experience of liner slippage on two cylinders, I do not believe that the problem necessarily stems from either overheating or poor maintenance as are often quoted as reasons for the problem. My 99 D2 failed at around 163,000 and had been meticulously maintained.At least during the 70,000 km I had owned it at that time it had never overheated sufficiently to be noticeable, although I accept that the standard temperature gauge is worse than useless.

In my humble opinion, the problem is simply a design and manufacture issue: poor design and quite probably inadequate quality control of the casting process. Alloy thickness in critical areas varies markedly, and if you get one with thin webs, you run a high chance of suffering slippage. Nevertheless I am also certain that poor maintenance of the cooling system leading to overheating will aggravate the existing quality problem, but it is not the cause of it in my view.

Just as an aside, I replaced the 4.0 with a factory new 4.6. That engine basically destoyed itself at around 7000 km with massive end float in the crankshaft.

That engine was replaced with a second factory new 4.6 provided under warranty at absolutely no cost to me other than inconvenience. The current 4.6 has been close to perfect for over 10,000 km so far.

[Patrick M]

Hi Grumdriva,
I was interested in your comment about your faied 4.6 at 7000 klms. I have just had a similar experience with a brand new 4.6 it had done 9800 klms and totally destroyed itself with as you said excessive end float to the crankshaft being most obvious. When I stripped it down I found swarf in the oil gallery of the camshaft, every bearing on the crankshaft journals bar one or two had been destroyed through contaminated oil flow and I also found a 3-4mm layer of sand in the bottom of the sump along with heaps of swarf. My assumption from this is that the motor excaped the flushing processes when machined and was assembled with casting sand from the forming of the block and swarf still inside the block cavities. Although it has been suggested that I had coupled the engine and transmission torque converter incorrectly which placed an external force on the end of the crank causing the thrust bearing to be destroyed. I know that this was not the case as I checked the installation repeatedly. However the decision on what happens now pretty much rests with the bloke that assembled the rest of the engine after delivery of the original new short engine.
I believe that as you say there seems to be a lack of quality control and design flaws with these engines.
I'd be interested in your comments.
Regards:- Patrick M

[Grumndriva]

Hi Patrick,


Sorry to hear about that. Not sure what I can offer to help, but if you are having warranty issues, I could put you in touch with the guys who did my vehicle so you can compare notes. PM me your email address and I will put you in touch.

Cheers,

Terry