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101 Ron
9th November 2009, 06:46 AM
I found the limits of a 101 winch on Sunday.
I also anchored the front of the vehicle with the front pintle hook and winched out the rear and the vehicle may have been longer than before.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1049.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1048.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/944.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1047.jpg
The cable has been broken at the 30 mtr mark and is stuffed.
Any one got 65 mtrs of special 9mm cable with a specail thimble swage on the end of it ?
What would be the breaking strain of a 9mm cable with IWRC......?
the winch should be rated at 6000lb and I naturally exceeded this.
The winch its self appears OK
The POMs always thought the winch breaks before the cable did if the overload clutch is screwed up.
It is interesting in that it broke at the capstain.

101RRS
9th November 2009, 09:49 AM
My guess you either had a fault in your cable or more likely the clutch on the winch itself was out of adjustment. The clutch is designed to slip at 2100 - 2000 Kg pull so you should have just lost pull rather than breaking the cable.

101 Ron
9th November 2009, 03:27 PM
Fiction overload clutch.
I have been a bad boy and screwed it up just a little bit too high.......or the over load clutch was sticky.
I was giving the thing a hard time too.

Blknight.aus
9th November 2009, 05:24 PM
depending on the construction of the rope it should have a WLL of about 2.3T (average figure of the most common constructions) you probabley want a 2.5T version..

Conveniently I might just happen to still have a roll of that grade FSWR from a crane that would be more than the 60m you need. Its not long before I go for a recycling run.... so I'll check then, swaging and adapting will be something you need to sort.

101 Ron
9th November 2009, 08:34 PM
Thanks for the offer,but at this stage I have to check lots of things.
I am told the cable on the 101 is 9mm and is IWRC.
The winch on the 101 is not normal in its design and operation.
The winch drum only stores the cable.
The pulling effect of the winch via two turn capstan and the cable must be correct diameter and construction for the winch to work correctly.
Interestingly the cable parted company not on its weakest point up near a worn section near the hook, but on the capstan drum and the break was over a 10cm lenght of the cable.
Later this week I will do some home work on what is needed.
My greatest concern is not the cable , but trying to replace the special swage fitting on the hook end of the cable.
The fitting I am thinking of making in the lathe.
The crimping and securing of it to the cable is the problem.
The other problem I can not really at this stage see any crimping marks on this special fitting on the end of the cable for the hook.......more study needed.

Blknight.aus
9th November 2009, 08:46 PM
the constuction isnt all that Special its Independant Wire Rope Core.
without getting stupidly technical it was special in its day because of its resistance to flattening, kinking and its flexability.

theres a couple of other styles of rope that will work just as well as the IWRC stuff.

in order for a dual capstan winch to work the key factors of the rope you need to have it work properly (aside from the correct nominal diameter)are its resistance to flattening and its flexabilty. If its too stiff it wont bend around the capstans and if it doesnt resist flattening it will chaff and bunch on the capstans pullys which dramatically shortens the life of both the capstan and the rope.

got some pics of the swage?

abaddonxi
9th November 2009, 08:57 PM
A. Noble & Son Ltd (http://www.nobles.com.au/index.html)
Is iwrc the same as tirfor wire rope?

Edit:
http://www.nobles.com.au/overview.asp~area=2&cid=12&link_id=64.html
wire rope descriptions including iwrc.

101 Ron
9th November 2009, 09:04 PM
Sorry like most of my pics they are out of focus.
This fitting is a must on the end of the cable.........sort of like a needle when the hook is removed so the cable can be threaded though the pulleys for transfer front or rear of the vehicle.
http://i13http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/BILD0079.jpg
1.photobuckehttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/1033.jpg
t.com/albums/p299/101Ron/BILD00https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/917.jpg80.jpg

101RRS
9th November 2009, 09:04 PM
When I got a hard eye put in my cable the rope guy took a sample and there is nothing special about the wire. I no longer have the specs - but it is something like - 9mm with solid wire core - four strand with something like 10 wires in each strand. It was listed in his wire catalogue so with a sample can be easily matched.

The ends are an issue - the ones the wire rope company had in their catalogue for the size wire were too large in diameter where the hook goes on to fit down the holes in the 101. They suggested getting a engineering shop to make one up - they didn't seem to have issues but it concerned me a little - the rope guy was happy to test the end product to determine SWL for $50. (non destructive testing)

An option is to go for a large soft eye which will fit down the holes but there will be increased wear on the cable where the hook joins - though most electric winches have this set up.

The cable on the capstan and around the rest of the winch is quite convoluted (I had to re-thread mine a few weeks back - job is a PITA) so maybe something happened there - whatever, the winch needs to be reset up.

PS - as an edit - my wire guy was Nobles in Newcastle

Garry

Blknight.aus
9th November 2009, 09:30 PM
thats a fairly common fitting for stays but its still a compression fitting.

I think its available as a screw compression fitting.

101 Ron
9th November 2009, 09:35 PM
thats a fairly common fitting for stays but its still a compression fitting.

I think its available as a screw compression fitting.


I would be extremely in your debt if you pass on any likely supply.
Garry col is also looking for the same.

Blknight.aus
9th November 2009, 09:59 PM
do me a favor and crack up the dimensions of it and I'll hit up my last few contacts in the rigging world.

http://www.nobles.com.au/overview.asp~area=2&cid=13&parent_id=0&product_id=52.html

and

http://www.nobles.com.au/overview.asp~area=2&cid=13&parent_id=0&product_id=25.html

they're what you;re after

and while Im at it...

http://www.nobles.com.au/overview.asp~area=2&cid=13&parent_id=24&product_id=47.html
43mm diameter.

iain reed
10th November 2009, 01:00 AM
hi ron
have been working on the syd harbour bridge with the riggers and have discussed your problem they recommend trying Bullans at Revesby for the best result they can do the swages etc for you ... good luck

101 Ron
10th November 2009, 06:39 AM
None of the aussie companies do what is needed.
The end of the cable must be small......not much bigger than the cable.
This is what I found
Quick Attach Swageless Fittings Rigging Stay Lock Sta-Loc (http://www.bosunsupplies.com/QuickAttachInstruction.cfm)
Hi-MOD Fittings by Hayn Marine (http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/himod.html)
It may work.
Or this
Forks and Eyes by Hayn Marine (http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/eye.html)

101RRS
10th November 2009, 08:26 AM
None of the aussie companies do what is needed.
The end of the cable must be small......not much bigger than the cable.


That was what I found before I gave up looking. However this one from Noble might be an option. 40mm might just be small enough.

A. Noble & Son Ltd (http://www.nobles.com.au/overview.asp~area=2&cid=13&parent_id=24&product_id=48.html)

Garry

iain reed
10th November 2009, 10:24 AM
here is the link ron these are THE guys

Bullivants Home Page - Wire Rope, Strand, Wire Rope & Strand, Fibre Rope, Chain & Fittings, Slings, Hardware, Load Restraint, Load Recovery,Personal Protection Equipment, Stainless Steel, Shackle, Shackles, sling rig, sling-rig (http://www.bullivants.com/front/home.php)

101RRS
10th November 2009, 02:03 PM
When I was looking for a swage I took my cable and fairleads to Bullivants but they did not have a swage small enough to fit down the fairlead fitting. The same as Nobles - unfortunately been there done that.

But maybe second time lucky/

Garry

101 Ron
10th November 2009, 03:11 PM
I went to the local place which sells cable.
Yes we can get it and it is normal IWRC rope.....65 mtrs we can get in at $500.............I said I would think at about it.:angel:
The swage end I can get over seas and today I had a good look at the cable and swage end.
The cable is 9mm IWRC with six strands around a single internal one.
The swage end I can get overseas is for 3/8 rope as there is little advailable for 9mm.
Is .5 of a mm going to make a difference.
The set up it I like is the swage less system and it is a question mark if a 3/8 swage less with work on a 9mm rope.
I have better pics coming of the original swage

101 Ron
10th November 2009, 03:32 PM
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/955.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/956.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/885.jpg

101 Ron
10th November 2009, 05:00 PM
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/03/954.jpg

Bush65
11th November 2009, 11:39 AM
In my younger days I designed mine haulages and winders for a living. I knew a bit about wire ropes for those purposes.

Though I never had to design a capstan winch, the design handbooks give the following wire rope requirements for capstan winches:

Ordinary lay - the most common lay, where the wires of the strands are laid in one direction and the strands are laid into the rope in the opposite direction (this helps prevent the rope twisting as it stretches).
Should be flexible - flexibility increase as more, smaller diameter wires are used to make the strands.
Should provide a good gripping surface on the face of the capstan drum.
Should be reasonably resistant to wear. Small diameter wires don't wear as well as larger wires.


Recommended construction for capstan winches is 6x24(15/9/F)/F. This construction has 6 stands with 24 wires in each strand - each strand has 15 outer wires over 9 inner wires laid over a fibre rope core, the strands are laid over a fibre rope core.

In 9mm diameter, the outer wires would be approximately 0.48 mm diameter. The weight would be approximately 25.8 kg/100 m. The minimum breaking strength is 35.6 kN (3629 kg, or 8000 lbs force) for 1570 MPa wire.

This is obviously not the construction that you have because yours has a wire rope core.

The closest rope construction to that but with wire rope core that I can find listed in 9 mm diameter is 6x36(14/7+7/7/1)/IWRC. In 9 mm diameter, the outer wires would be approximately 0.50 mm diameter. The weight would be approximately 33.9 kg/100 m. The minimum breaking strength is 51.1 kN (5209 kg, or 11,484 lbs force) for 1770 MPa wire.

When a wire rope is bent over a drum or sheave, the stress increases in the outer wires of the rope - this is possibly (but could have been previous damage at that point) why your rope broke at the capstan drum (where the wire stress is highest).

The ratio of the drum (or sheave) diameter to rope diameter and the ratio of the drum (or sheave) diameter to outer wire diameter is an important factor to reduce the stress rise in the wire to an acceptable limit. As drum (or sheave) diameter is increased, the rope and outer wire diameter can be increased.

The rope diameter (9 mm in your case) is nominal. The diameter of a new rope will be larger by as much as 7% for a 9 mm rope (approximately 9.63 mm).

The swaged terminal on your rope is similar to those used for yacht rigging. A good wire rope merchant should have these and the tools to swage them, or else try some of the places that do yacht rigging. Perhaps you can find a Ronstan catalogue on line.

Edit: BTW, 6x36 IWRC is commonly used hoist rope for cranes.

Edit 2: My very old Ronstan catalogue has a swage eye for 3/8" wire that might do. It lists 8 and 10 mm but not 9 mm, but newer catalogues might have 9mm. 3/8" is 9.52 mm. The part number for 3/8" swage eye is RF1500-12, if they had a 9 mm swage eye it would look like RF1501-9.

101 Ron
11th November 2009, 05:15 PM
Bush65 you are full of it ........useful information.
Thanks.
I did have a check of the construction in I know it is 7 strand with 6 strands around the central one.
Each strand has 19 wires with 10 being a larger size around 9 smaller ones.
The cable is very flexiable for its size.
The cable was in perfect condition where it broke on the capstan pulley and the winch and cable was overloaded due to the operator (me) pushing the winch beyond its normal working load and a sticky overload clutch.
I was pulling a large lump of log on the farm in which the tap root was not cut away properly with the chain saw.
The cable measures just under 9mm or 8.93 mm to be exact.

101RRS
11th November 2009, 08:17 PM
My rope measures 8.6mm and your thread count seems about what Nobles measured when they checked my rope. That is within specs for used 9mm rope.

When pulling from the rear the first pulley on the winch is a very tight turn - about 180 degrees and this may have weakened the rope. Likewise the first turn on the capstan is not a full 360 degrees but only 180 degrees. The real tight bit is the pulley after the first turn on the capstan. The cable comes off the bottom of the capstan to the top of this pulley, around it for almost a full 360 degrees and comes off half way up the pulley to send the cable to the top of the second turn of the capstan for about 180 degrees and at the bottom it then goes to the storage drum.

I would have expected the cable to break on the interim pulley but if already damaged then the first turn on the capstan.

Also - in theory there is no reason why plasma rope should not work on the Nokken winch given the way it works - unlike most capstan winches the rope in a Nokken does not actually slip on the capstan (except when paying out with no load) so should not suffer from chaffing or heat. 9mm plasma is probably stronger than the wire. I am not going to be the first to try plasma though ;).

Garry

Bush65
12th November 2009, 10:25 AM
...
I did have a check of the construction in I know it is 7 strand with 6 strands around the central one.
Each strand has 19 wires with 10 being a larger size around 9 smaller ones.
The cable is very flexiable for its size.
...
6x19/IWRC is a common wire rope construction and is recommended for marine and general purpose.

But the strand construction 10/9 is not listed in either of my wire rope catalogues - one for wire ropes made in Australia and one for Haggie Rand (Haggie Rand are from South Africa - BTW South Africa is a world leader in wire ropes - they have the deepest mines and very demanding of wire rope winders for hauling ore from underground). Thinking about some more, 10/9 strand construction would be hard to make.

The 2 usual constructions used for strands with 19 wires are:

12/6/1 - 12 outer wires over 6 wires and a single wire at the centre. The wire diameters are all close to the same - probably indistinguishable by eye.
9/9/1 - 9 outer wires over 9 smaller wires and a single wire at the centre. The centre wire is close to the same diameter as the outer wires, the 9 inner wires are noticeably smaller than the outer wires.


9 mm rope using common 6x19(9/9/1)/IWRC construction is available in 2 strengths using 1570 Mpa or 1770 MPa wire.

For 1570 MPa wire the weight is approximately 30.8 kg/100m and minimum breaking strength is 42.2 kN (4302 kg, or 9484 lbs force).

For 1770 MPa wire the weight is approximately 33 kg/100m and minimum breaking strength is 51.1 kN (5209 kg, or 11,484 lbs force).

Outer wire diameter is approximately 0.72 mm.

Because of the larger diameter of the outer wires, 6x19 wire rope is not as flexible as the 6x24 or 6x36 constructions mentioned in my earlier post.

The drum and sheave diameters need to be larger to avoid over stressing the outer wires. From memory, 6x19 construction is not permitted (it is certainly not recommended) for use in cranes.

However for our vehicle winching purposes; usage is infrequent (compared to a crane), and the larger wires stand up to abrasive wear better than smaller wires.

BTW, I see a lot of galvanised wire ropes used on vehicle winches. Galvanised wires are susceptible to martensitic cracking when pulled under load over sliding surfaces, such as fairlead rollers that don't turn. In these cases black ropes are better (as long as rusting is not a problem).