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View Full Version : Cycling Q - about to change from clips to cleats



Scouse
17th November 2009, 09:28 AM
I've recently resumed cycling after approx 25 years. I initially gave it up when I developed cartilage problems. I saw a few specialists for a couple of years without success & then cars came along so nothing more was done. I started riding home from work (about 25k) in June, & since the weather has warmed up, now ride approx 150km / week.

Anyway, to my question regarding cleats. I've always just used toe clips & hard soled shoes (soccer boots with the studs cut off) but I'm doing a lot more Km than I used too these days & the pedals are wearing through the shoes after a couple of thousand km.

Rather than keep replacing shoes, I'm looking to change over to cleats, with the added benefit of increased efficiency.
My local bike shop carries road Shimano shoes & pedals & Specialised (?) for mountain bike stuff. Seeing as I just do commuting with not too much walking, should I go with the road shoes/pedals or are would the MB set up be OK for what I do?

Is there anything special I should look for when buying shoes/pedals or are they much the same these days?
My LBS has been in the area for at least 30 years that I know of (ABC Liverpool) & they seem pretty trustworthy from my other dealings with them so should I just take their advice?

Thanks.

Oh, & my cartliage problem seems to have cured itself over the last 20 odd years. I had the odd twinge/click when I started out in June but nothing for the last few months :).




BTW, I'd love to put this into the new Outdoor Pastimes section but it doesn't fit in anywhere ;).

Psimpson7
17th November 2009, 09:43 AM
I run Time ATAC pedals on my Mountain bike which are excellent in wet muddy conditions as they dont tend to clog.

My shoes are SIDI which were expensive when I bought them, but that was almost 15 years ago now!!!!!! and they still are fine!! Amazing!! (I used to ride a lot back then so they had a serious work out!)

You can reverse the cleats to change the angle of release.

If you haven't used them before when you first do unclip before you stop;)

weeds
17th November 2009, 09:45 AM
If you haven't used them before when you first do unclip before you stop;)

lol....good advice, i ended up laying on the ground still clipped in with three or four other riders watching on........i never thought to test them at home prior to my first ride

x-box
17th November 2009, 09:46 AM
well, you'll get a heap of replies i think, but i'll give my opinion anyway.
i also used to do a lot of road riding in my younger and lighter days, and changing from cleats to clips is a huge leap in comfort and efficiency, and nowadays with decent shoes it's even better.
road cycling shoes are great and works really well, but having said that, my mtb shoes are brilliant as well with the added benefit that i can walk with them on, where with road shoes walking is a pain, even short distances...
as you mentioned walking is not a major issue with you, so i would take the most comfortable shoe - end of story
happy cycling and stay safe

Scallops
17th November 2009, 09:51 AM
Heya Scouse,

MTB shoes have recessed cleats so are much easier to walk around in. Road bike shoes and cleats are lighter and maybe more comfy - I have a pair of Sidi shoes which I've had for years and they are very comfortable, but if you need to walk they are a pain because the cleats are not recessed.

To use MTB shoes on a road bike or visa versa - you need cleats to match the pedals - so its a matter of selecting a pedal first, then getting shoes which will take the cleat.

I'm not sure what sort of bike you have - or if you do anything other than commute - but if you don't need to walk much with the shoes on, I'd go for road shoes with cleats/pedals of your choice.

For bad knees - you want plenty of "float" - which is movement of the shoe in a arc around the pedal axis.

Time pedals are very "floaty" - I love mine. Quality shoes are worth buying too, for comfort and longevity. My Sidis are 7 years old - not going to wear out any time soon.

Hope that helps - you will find a small learning curve with these pedals - adjust them to the easiest release setting at first, practise against a wall of something you can grab. The pedals will improve your efficiency greatly - think little cirlces as you pedal and you will start to pedal the entire loop. :)

samuelclarke
17th November 2009, 09:54 AM
I have Shimano Mountain Touring (http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/shoes/mtb.html) SPD shoes with SPD pedals...they allow decent walking comfort and work well on and off road.

Specialized have some good gear too.

My next pedals will be CrankBrothers (http://www.crankbrothers.com/) - sweet gear, and they work with most shoes.

isuzurover
17th November 2009, 10:30 AM
Heya Scouse,

MTB shoes have recessed cleats so are much easier to walk around in. Road bike shoes and cleats are lighter and maybe more comfy - I have a pair of Sidi shoes which I've had for years and they are very comfortable, but if you need to walk they are a pain because the cleats are not recessed.

To use MTB shoes on a road bike or visa versa - you need cleats to match the pedals - so its a matter of selecting a pedal first, then getting shoes which will take the cleat.

I'm not sure what sort of bike you have - or if you do anything other than commute - but if you don't need to walk much with the shoes on, I'd go for road shoes with cleats/pedals of your choice.

For bad knees - you want plenty of "float" - which is movement of the shoe in a arc around the pedal axis.

Time pedals are very "floaty" - I love mine. Quality shoes are worth buying too, for comfort and longevity. My Sidis are 7 years old - not going to wear out any time soon.

Hope that helps - you will find a small learning curve with these pedals - adjust them to the easiest release setting at first, practise against a wall of something you can grab. The pedals will improve your efficiency greatly - think little cirlces as you pedal and you will start to pedal the entire loop. :)

Agree completely.

Rayngie
17th November 2009, 10:48 AM
Hello Scott,

I'm using MTB Shimano shoes and pedals / cleats, i use the kind of shoe which pretty much just looks like a set of trainers, had 'em for ages and they work great, they tie up normally and have a velcroe strap over the top, very secure, but am looking to change to Crank Bro's pedals and cleats as i'm finding the Shimano SPD's clog up really badly and are hard to keep clean.

Enjoy,

Ray,

Scouse
17th November 2009, 10:55 AM
Is there much of a difference between the actual cleat operation (ie, is one better than the other) of Moutain Bike & Road?
If they're going to last 10-15 years then I might need to plan a bit further ahead. If get back into touring, then MB shoes might be a better long term prospect. But if MB shoes are a compromise, then I'll stick with road shoes for the time being.


My bike is an old Peugeot & was set up as a tourer. Steel frame, 27" tyres, very old school but I've had it for 30 years now. I've stripped it down a bit (no mudguards or front rack) but she's still heavy compared to the modern bikes. No point making it easy for myself ;).

incisor
17th November 2009, 11:01 AM
when you wish upon a star....

Scouse
17th November 2009, 11:03 AM
when you wish upon a star....Thanks Inc, but why do I have "special" powers ;).

Sith
17th November 2009, 11:10 AM
If your going to use Shimano , go for the YELLOW CLEATS as they provide float , red cleats are a lock and leave type and play havoc on your knees .
I would recommend a spd type shoe to start with and go practice on a lawned area of clipping in and out . Once your used to them they are worth their weight in gold
Remember when talking knee pain , it can be a ill fitted bike more times than not , pain in the front of the knee is from pushing too hard , remember cadence is your friend !!

Scouse
17th November 2009, 11:30 AM
pain in the front of the knee is from pushing too hard , remember cadence is your friend !!I know that now. I used to sit in the highest gear & wore the teeth out until the chain started slipping :(.
Not a single 'sports specialist' mentioned cadence at the time.

big guy
17th November 2009, 11:39 AM
I suggest you go to a reputable shop and have the bike properly fitted to you.
You may have a wrong size frame etc.

Once you get shoes and proper pedals, riding takes on a whole new meaning.
Pushing down on the pedals should be a thing of the past and pulling up on each stroke is how you will get efficiency, strength and speed.

Good shoes, pedals and cleats with say 9% of play plus a fitting could cost from $300 to easy over $1000.

Is your bike worth it.
There are some great specials on so why not get a new bike for xmas and they often through in shoes and riding gear plus a fitting is always included.

Just some food for thought, the kays you are doing it may be worth it.

Have a look on bike New, Used & Cheap Bikes for Sale, Buy & Sell Bikes Online - BikeExchange (http://www.bikeexchange.com.au) they have some bargains but you have to be sure that you are getting right frame size etc, set up is so so important.
Happy riding

incisor
17th November 2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks Inc, but why do I have "special" powers ;).
cause you have to be careful what you wish for :P

Scallops
17th November 2009, 01:12 PM
Is there much of a difference between the actual cleat operation (ie, is one better than the other) of Moutain Bike & Road?
If they're going to last 10-15 years then I might need to plan a bit further ahead. If get back into touring, then MB shoes might be a better long term prospect. But if MB shoes are a compromise, then I'll stick with road shoes for the time being.


My bike is an old Peugeot & was set up as a tourer. Steel frame, 27" tyres, very old school but I've had it for 30 years now. I've stripped it down a bit (no mudguards or front rack) but she's still heavy compared to the modern bikes. No point making it easy for myself ;).

Not really - they both work the same way. Just different shapes. MTB cleats and pedals are often designed to allow mud and crud to clean out easier - ie the eggbeater style pedals made by crank brothers.

In your case, I'd go the MTB shoes, cleats and pedals - you can put them on any bike (as you can with a road shoe/cleat/pedal) but they offer the walking benefit.

Scouse
17th November 2009, 01:20 PM
I suggest you go to a reputable shop and have the bike properly fitted to you.
You may have a wrong size frame etc.Quite possible. Bike fitting wasn't as well known back in the '70s when I started riding.


Once you get shoes and proper pedals, riding takes on a whole new meaning.
Pushing down on the pedals should be a thing of the past and pulling up on each stroke is how you will get efficiency, strength and speed.That's one of the reasons why I would like to go to cleats.


Good shoes, pedals and cleats with say 9% of play plus a fitting could cost from $300 to easy over $1000.
.........
Is your bike worth it.
There are some great specials on so why not get a new bike for xmas and they often through in shoes and riding gear plus a fitting is always includedHave a look on bike New, Used & Cheap Bikes for Sale, Buy & Sell Bikes Online - BikeExchange (http://www.bikeexchange.com.au) they have some bargains but you have to be sure that you are getting right frame size etc, set up is so so important.
Happy ridingThe bike is not worth it (not that it makes too much difference) but I'm not prepared to spend $$ on a new one. I am browsing eBay & other sites just for interest sake. I have a collection of cars - I don't want to start collecting bikes too :(.

At this stage, I can't see cycling being a serious hobby like it was for me years ago so I can't justify spending big $$.

p38arover
17th November 2009, 04:56 PM
well, you'll get a heap of replies i think, but i'll give my opinion anyway.
i also used to do a lot of road riding in my younger and lighter days, and changing from cleats to clips is a huge leap in comfort and efficiency, and nowadays with decent shoes it's even better.

So, your view is against the tide of opinion and that clips are better than cleats?

Savanahkelpy
17th November 2009, 08:34 PM
Sorry to burst a lot of balloons but i don,t use either one. I go long distance touring and find that cheap old joggers or even sandals do the job. Love the sandals, as they stop you from getting all sorts of problems from exessive perspiration, in summer, and keep my feet way cooler.:D

Slunnie
17th November 2009, 08:51 PM
I ride XC MTB and find the cleat shoes (Shimano in my case) to be a really good shoe, but to be honest even after a few years I still prefer the clips because I can bail with a lot more ease. If it was just road riding then cleats are the go.

Slunnie
17th November 2009, 08:52 PM
Sorry to burst a lot of balloons but i don,t use either one. I go long distance touring and find that cheap old joggers or even sandals do the job. Love the sandals, as they stop you from getting all sorts of problems from exessive perspiration, in summer, and keep my feet way cooler.:D
There is a better best. Locking in is more efficient. :D

slug_burner
17th November 2009, 09:10 PM
Even if not doing much walking road shoes are a pain, road shoes are for riding and for walking you just manage. MTB shoes are a lot more walker friendly, just going to the shower room is made that much easier with the recessed cleats on MTB shoes.

The other thing I found was after going from MTB shoes to road shoes was that road shoe cleats are single sided whereas MTB cleats are on both sides of the pedal. If like me you stop at the lights and take a shoe out of the cleats it is much easier getting back in with the double sided cleats. I guess that is part of the reason why some road bike riders try and balance on the pedals at the lights, it's a pain to get back into the road pedal cleats as more often than not you will have to roll the pedal over before you can get into the single sided cleat.

My two bobs

Savanahkelpy
17th November 2009, 09:46 PM
There is a better best. Locking in is more efficient. :D

Nope, i like to be able change where i put my foot on the pedal so i can cycle all day without getting cramps from having my feet stuck in one position only. i like to flat pedal in the centre of my foot when the tracks are sandy, the ball of my foot, when the going is easy or i need power, and even on my heels at the end of the day, just keep going. No good being stuck to your bike when you hit sand patches.
When you,ve cycled Cape york peninsular, solo, with panniers and a bob trailer, you,ll understand.

Slunnie
17th November 2009, 10:04 PM
Nope, i like to be able change where i put my foot on the pedal so i can cycle all day without getting cramps from having my feet stuck in one position only. i like to flat pedal in the centre of my foot when the tracks are sandy, the ball of my foot, when the going is easy or i need power, and even on my heels at the end of the day, just keep going. No good being stuck to your bike when you hit sand patches.
When you,ve cycled Cape york peninsular, solo, with panniers and a bob trailer, you,ll understand.
Ahhhh different applications on the bike I think. I wouldn't ride more than 50km in stint usually and I'm not sure Scotts doing the cape with a goose neck either, but thats one hell of a ride.

I do Cape York in a 4WD. :D

jaseh
17th November 2009, 10:33 PM
Good to see so many cyclist in a place other than a cycling forum.

I'm a MTB'er, have been for many years. Even had a bike shop for a couple of years.

If your not racing road I wouldn't bother with road shoes/pedals. Go with the MTB ones. As others have already stated they are a hell of a lot more comfortable and a heap easier towalk in.

As for brands, personally I'm a shimano fanboy. I have used Crank Bros pedals, a set of Candy's came on one of my bikes when I bought it so I put them on all my bikes. It was the worst 3-4 months of riding I have ever had. Had numerous stacks from them not clipping in, pulling them out when pedalling and when lifting the bike to bunnyhop stuff. The bushings wore out in the time I used them too which is pretty poor. They are very vague in their engagement and I found they were very easy to bend the spring so they were always being bent back or were very loose. In my mind shimano crap on them in every way except weight, which isn't an issue unless your racing.
I still have a pair of shimano pedals that are over 15 years old and I have never put a bearing or bushing in them, just serviced them every 12 months or so. I had to replace the bushings on 3 sets of CB's in 3-4 months, plus a couple on the pairs I had sold in the time I was trying them out.

You will notice a massive difference compared to the toe clips, Better power transfer, better control over the bike, And if it's all fitted well with the cleats in the right spot and the seat height and setback right your knees will last forever.

camel_landy
18th November 2009, 07:48 AM
Personally, I use the Shimano SPD pedals & shoes (the MTB setup) with my road & mountain bikes.

However, the MTB setup is a compromise...

Personally, I prefer the cleats as they hold your foot in the pedal better. With the SPD pedals, I sometimes pull my foot out when I'm give it 'some stick!'... but as I said, it's a compromise.

HTH

M

Scallops
19th November 2009, 08:56 AM
Nope, i like to be able change where i put my foot on the pedal so i can cycle all day without getting cramps from having my feet stuck in one position only. i like to flat pedal in the centre of my foot when the tracks are sandy, the ball of my foot, when the going is easy or i need power, and even on my heels at the end of the day, just keep going. No good being stuck to your bike when you hit sand patches.
When you,ve cycled Cape york peninsular, solo, with panniers and a bob trailer, you,ll understand.

But if you can use clipless pedals properly, you won't be stuck to your bike! You can ride absolutely any conditions with cleats - and be able to release - it's just practice. And I have competed in 24 hr MTB Marathons and many other extreme cycling events!

And really, you should always pedal with the pedal's centre under the ball of the foot - if your bike is set up correctly, you shouldn't have issues with cramps. If you have had issues cramping, I'd suggest it's more likely hydration and or diet or because you are not positioning your pedal correctly with respect to your foot. ;)

These bio mechanical issues are well known and part of any coach's training. I'd try them (clipless pedals) again, set up correctly, and see how you go. :)

abaddonxi
19th November 2009, 09:11 AM
Back in the days when I rode a bike it was shoes with cleats and toe straps.

Guess things have changed a bit.

Shonky
19th November 2009, 09:41 AM
Did you also repair damaged wheels by chiselling a new one out of the nearest cliff? :p

abaddonxi
19th November 2009, 10:04 AM
Did you also repair damaged wheels by chiselling a new one out of the nearest cliff? :p

Nah, that old stuff was in me Dad's day. I used to bend up new wheels out of steel bar and rub the ends together until they welded shut.

Went into a bike shop the other day for a brake cable bolt for one of the kid's bikes. First time I've been in the shop for twenty years. Cranky bugger tells me he doesn't stock that kind of stuff.

I say it's a nut with a hole through it for the brake cable just about every bike on earth has a couple on it.

Oh no, there's this, and this, and this...

Fine, I get a whole brake assembly then.

What kind of bike is it for? Oh no, I don't stock that kind of stuff anymore.

It was at about that moment that I remembered why I hadn't been in his shop for the last twenty years. I was standing there wanting to spend money and all he gave me was attitude and crap about cheap kids bikes. It was the week the twins learned to ride their bikes and with the smallest amount of encouragement I would have given the credit card a beating.

No way.

isuzurover
19th November 2009, 02:21 PM
But if you can use clipless pedals properly, you won't be stuck to your bike! You can ride absolutely any conditions with cleats - and be able to release - it's just practice. And I have competed in 24 hr MTB Marathons and many other extreme cycling events!

And really, you should always pedal with the pedal's centre under the ball of the foot - if your bike is set up correctly, you shouldn't have issues with cramps. If you have had issues cramping, I'd suggest it's more likely hydration and or diet or because you are not positioning your pedal correctly with respect to your foot. ;)

These bio mechanical issues are well known and part of any coach's training. I'd try them (clipless pedals) again, set up correctly, and see how you go. :)

Agree. Also, there are other options - like the combination flat/platform and SPD pedals. You can use them as SPDs with SPD shoes, or flats with normal shoes if you really want to. The increased efficiency with SPDs when climbing is amazing.

I started out in XC with SPDs - like them and still have them. However when I started doing more DH and FR riding, I switched to flats for the extra control on jumps and descents. For my (short distance) commute to work, I find the flats handy, as I don't need to change shoes.

EchiDna
19th November 2009, 02:40 PM
horses for courses IMHO...
in fact I just bought a pair of SIDI's and Look Keo 2 Carbon pedals myself for the roadie :)

Oz prices are nuts for this stuff - buy online if you know your shoe size!

try wiggle.co.uk or probikekit.com for starters :) if your LBS is within say 10-15% of the online price, then ok but most seem to be 40-50% higher unfortunately...

jaseh
19th November 2009, 07:35 PM
If your going down the MTB shoe/pedal route, check this out (http://www.cellbikes.com.au/Shimano-SH-MT32-Mountain-Bike-Shoes?sc=7&category=12784). Got it emailed to me today.

As stated above check online for bargains overseas. even when I had my shop I still bought stuff from O/S as some gear was cheaper than getting it at wholesale here.

Scallops
21st November 2009, 08:37 PM
Oz prices are nuts for this stuff - buy online if you know your shoe size!

try wiggle.co.uk or probikekit.com for starters :) if your LBS is within say 10-15% of the online price, then ok but most seem to be 40-50% higher unfortunately...

Yeah, totally agree. Although it is a little tough on our LBSs, I always buy my stuff from the UK.

I can post a few good ones if anyone is interested.... usual suspects, Ribble, Parkers, Chain Reaction etc. :)

gone bush
1st December 2009, 02:39 PM
Hi Scouse.

I am a professional cycling and mtb coach and am happy to give you some guidence in this matter so let me know and I will PM you. In short though you should be looking at road shoes and pedals and not MTB ones as they give far superior support for the type of riding you are doing. No dramas buying pedals on line but buy your shoes from your LBS as it is imperitive that they are the exact fit other wise you run the risk of ligament and joint damage. There are many different pedal types available with pros and cons to all and I am happy to send you some information on the most popular types including look, time, speedplay if you like. cheers JP

Scouse
1st December 2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks JP.

Bugger, I was going to pick up my MTB shoes & pedals this afternoon after the advice in here.
Will the road shoes make that much difference?
I'm quite happy sticking to toe clips but the pedals are wearing out my shoes rather quickly these days :( .

gone bush
1st December 2009, 09:47 PM
Hi Scott.
Yes they will make that much difference. A MTB shoe and pedal system is designed to engage and disengage more frequently as you spend more time disengaging out of them to run up or down slippery slopes, through sand and water crossings. You also have irregular cadence on a mountain bike and spend alot of time out of the seat manipulating the bicycle under you so the shoe / pedal connection needs to be more flexible. A road pedal shoe is designed to specifically transfer power in the most efficient manner as you are always driving the bicycle biomechanically. That is why they have a bigger and better platform for your shoe to engage so you have more support. The arguement the mtb pedals are easier to engagedue to being double sided is a myth as it is more to do with the correct technique. This is because a road pedal is wieghted so that it is in the same position every time you stop so that you only have to use the same technique every time you move off. If you are not engaging or have to look down to engage a road shoe/pedal then your technique is wrong - this is easily adjusted with 2 or 3 very short training drills. The reason I suggested the road shoe/pedal combination is because you said you are riding home from work and doing some recreational riding on a road bike up to 150km. If you were going to the markets and doing alot of walking or you were travelling through a forrest on the way home on a mtb I would recommend the mtb shoe pedal system. You need to buy a shoe with a firm sole but ensure it is mated to your foot type and not to your favorite colour. It may feel a little uncomfortable at first but will ensure many years of trouble free cycling as it will help with the transfer of power to the pedals. Keeping in mind they will strech a little (as there is no clip and toe strap the top of the shoe takes all the force of the upstroke) hope this helps a little. cheers JP

Scouse
2nd December 2009, 07:32 AM
OK, thanks for the info.

I called into my LBS last night & bit the bullet. I spoke to them about what/how I ride & they recommended a touring shoe, the Shimano RT31. It's the same construction as a road shoe but the cleat is tucked out of the way so they can be walked in. They didn't have my size in stock so I pick them up on Friday.

Along with these, I went with the A530 pedals.

I'm sure they will make a big difference & I'm looking forward to using them next week (but I'll practice on the weekend clipping/unclipping on a soft surface before hitting the road ;)).



Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, it's been a big help.

Scouse
7th December 2009, 09:12 PM
I had my first run today with the new shoes & pedals. I didn't think they were making much of a difference initially until I hit a hill. You can really notice the difference when climbing, especially out of the seat.

Even with the 38deg heat this arvo & a side wind, I beat my best time home by around 5min & about 7-8 min quicker than usual.

big guy
7th December 2009, 09:46 PM
Good stuff mate.
Concentrate on an action where you make out you wipe poo off the bottom of the shoe on the downstroke and than you pull up. Both on the Left and Right leg.
Forget pushing down for a while.
Aim for a cadence of 90 and once settled, try taking one foot out and ride with one leg in for 2 min and see how that goes.
At 1st you may feel like the foot is very jerky so concentrate on pulling up and getting the motion to smooth out and than alternate.
At ligths, unclip on LHS so you leaning away from cars going past you on the right.
Keep a constant pedal up to maintain speed and use the gears, they are your friend, aim for a leg speed(cadence) of 90.

Experiment a bit with seat height also if the shop has not done so already, and make sure cleats are not set so they sit under middle of foot, totally wrong.
Should be under ball of foot as said previously.

Oh and have fun, geta heart rate monitor too and work in the magic 150-160 bpm mark.
getting too serious?

Just have a good time and happy riding.

Scouse
7th December 2009, 10:38 PM
geta heart rate monitor too and work in the magic 150-160 bpm mark.
getting too serious?

:p
Good timing - Choice magazine has just done a test on those.

Scouse
9th December 2009, 08:00 PM
:p
Good timing - Choice magazine has just done a test on those.Picked up the Crane heart rate monitor today (equal top in the Choice test).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/marketplace-alerts/94167-heart-rate-monitors-aldi.html

5teve
18th February 2010, 06:25 PM
I have been using cleats for years... started on SPD's on my MTB but changed over to looks on my road bike...

I have some look carbons that i bought from ribble some while ago.. i would choose look over SPD any day (not spdr tho as they are almost the same as looks!) but spd were a first gen cleat.. and really are too small and fiddly to work well...

The float on the look cleats is impressive more than enough for my legs. I run 2 sets of shoes also... both Lakes, both kanga leather laced and velcro in 3 points and both carbon soles..

The pedals i have also have multiple degree adjustment via different axle mounts.

Thanks

Steve