Restoration?-What is a true restoration

[bayrover]

I see and hear about a lot of series 1's (particularly 80") that have been restored using new repo guards and tubs. Is this a reflection of a true restoration?? Many look like they have a paint job not even thought about when the car was produced. Are we better to source ourselves the best original guards/tubs we can find and do the best we can with them??? I'm interested in your thoughts

[Scallops]

I reckon it's a personal thing - a resto can be done in many ways, all of them valid. But with different results.

[bayrover]

I always thought it was back to original condition using the original components and to be a true restoration using the original parts and matching numbers. This to me reflects the true value of the vehicle.

[Scallops]

Yes - it can be - often is - but if a fellow decides to take a clapped out S1 that has been sitting in a paddock with a tree growing through it, and then fixes the rusted chassis, repairs the body work - even replaces the engine with something else, and finally paints it hot pink - it's still a restoration, in as much as it's then restored to a going concern.

Might not be restored to original condition - but that is the question - what do we want to achieve?

[numpty]

I believe amongst the vintage/veteran brigade a restoration is using the original parts, while to use reproduced parts produces a "rebuild".

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I always thought it was back to original condition using the original components and to be a true restoration using the original parts and matching numbers. This to me reflects the true value of the vehicle.
Then there's chequebook restorations where someone hands over a wreck to a company and the vehicle is totally rebuilt using NOS parts. Dunsfold did an average 1950 recently and the quote was 30,000.00 GBPounds which went ahead. :eek:

I guess it is in the eyes of the beholder, some people will do a mecanical only restoration and leave the patina intact, even without paint on the alloy panels.

If you consider only a true restoration is using original parts and matching numbers. Tell me about the battery, will it be rubber case with exposed lead? How about the tyres? I'm not riding with you on 60 year old rubber! Where can you acquire Dunlop T-28 TrakGrip tyres lately?

On a Land Rover what are matching numbers? We know the original engine number on a Grenville Motors distributed vehicle. Should we judge one of those differently to a vehicle distributed by Annand & Thompson, Regent Motors or Champions where we don't know the numbers?

Tell me about the baked enamel paint? Do you know that you can no longer acquire the old paint tints? So will you use synthetic tints and two-pak enamel?

60 year old vinyl probably won't be much good, or at least good enough to sit on without cracking. The texture of Exmoor Trim seats is not exactly the same as the original. What will you do about that? How about the Dunlopillo latex seat cushioning, won't be any good these days, tell me where do you get that?

Given your above definition there won't be very many restorations out there.

Diana

Addit: As others have said, it depends upon what you hope to achieve out of a vehicle. Last year at ABD we met a pensioner who restored a 1949 working in islolation using his manuals, available parts and his ingenuity to replicate missing and broken parts, the result was an acceptable working vehicle of which he was rightly proud. Those of us in the know, could pick details which were less than original. I would never want to inform him that under some people's definitions his is only a rebuild, it is his restoration and so it will be with me.

Also, I do not believe that a series Land Rover should ever be considered or judged concours d'Elegance condition no matter how well it was maintained or restored. IMHO it's not a Land Rover thing! :)

[bayrover]

So the point is we will never have any complete restorations but we will have restorations that are true to what we can do now. The others using repo guards/ tubs etc should be called rebuilds????

[260AC]

I reckon it's a personal thing - a resto can be done in many ways, all of them valid. But with different results.

I'm going with Dan on this one.

At the end of the day its your vehicle so you can do what you like.

[Lost Landy]

Iam also going with Dan as every resotions is different!

[Bigbjorn]

A true restoration is carried out using original parts whether used or NOS. "Restorations" created by using a melange of major components from a number of vehicles are correctly called "bitzers", bits from this one, bits from that one. With high value vehicles like true classics and revered vintage sports cars, provenance is important and a "correct" vehicle has greater value and prescence than a "bitzer". A number of makes/models can be virtually created from nothing using after-market replica parts. Ford "A" is one example.

A prominent Bugattiste and vintage sports car writer and spokesman recently opined that if looking for a Bugatti you are likely to find 70% of those on offer are fakes being a straight out replica, or an unattractive model like a Type 40 (the Molsheim Morris Cowley) made into a desirable model, using parts from others, replica parts from outside suppliers, or parts stocked by the Bugatti Owners Club. There is a firm in Argentina that builds replica Bugatti Type 35's, US$250,000. Owners of genuine cars with provenance get annoyed with this sort of "restoration". The spokesman reckoned the percentage of W.O. Bentleys being fakes or bitzers is about 30%.

Then you have makes like Kurtis Kraft. K-K's can still be made by the descendant of the original company. Frank Kurtis Co. still trades in Bakersfield, California. Arlen Kurtis, son of Frank can have built anything they built in the past or spare parts for any. They built speedway midgets, sprint cars, Champ cars, Indianapolis cars, sports cars, boats, rocket sleds, aircraft starter carts, and so on. Is a fresh construction to the original designs and drawings by the original makers eligible as a collector car?

In 1999 Arlen told me he could build and sell a KK500S sports car using new Corvette engine and transmission but otherwise identical to a 1955 KK500S for US$85,000. This would have a 1955 California DMV title as KK was issued a book of titles for the KK500S and never usedmore than about 20-30 of them. Thisa is apparently quite legal in California.

[bayrover]

So, at our car shows (many of which are centres of excellence), should we be holding in higher esteem our correct vehicles rather than the bitzers??

[Shonky]

Certainly one member on here has recently restored a beutiful Series I to an impeccable standard - with a HOLDEN motor in it! I guess it depends on what period you restore your vehicle to. Nothing says you have to restore it to factory spec!

This individual has preserved the vehicle as it was for most of it's life, and that in my opinion is just as valid as a factory spec vehicle.


Let me put it this way; If you acquired the Leyland's 107 SW from their West - East Crossing, would you restore it to factory spec? You would need to shorten it again, remove the Valiant (?) motor, respray it a factory colour, etc etc... What a waste of history!


On a different note:

I 'restored' my ambulance from this:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk188/670719/26092008669.jpg

to this:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk188/670719/DSCF3945.jpg

...but I didn't paint it, I didn't replace panels, I didn't rebuild the mechanicals.

Would you say the above is not a restoration? As you can see, MUCH work went into it but by some of the defentitions above it is insinuated that this is somehow less noteworthy than someone who paid someone else to respray the whole thing in non-original 2 pack paint! ;)

Oh, and it has a Bearmach fuel pump on it! :p

[Scallops]

....

...but I didn't paint it, I didn't replace panels, I didn't rebuild the mechanicals.

Would you say the above is not a restoration? As you can see, MUCH work went into it but by some of the defentitions above it is insinuated that this is somehow less noteworthy than someone who paid someone else to respray the whole thing in non-original 2 pack paint! ;)

Oh, and it has a Bearmach fuel pump on it! :p

I'd say it's a brilliant resto - well done! :clap2: Heck, if you didn't paint it, you must have used a barrow load of polish! :eek:

[bayrover]

Amazing what a bit of polish can do

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So, at our car shows (many of which are centres of excellence), should we be holding in higher esteem our correct vehicles rather than the bitzers??
When I am assigned as a judge at a car show I use a likert scale tool developed for the purpose. Original patina has a higher value grading higher than the grades for a re-spray. Detectable reproductions graded lower than NOS being lower than the original parts of the vehicle. Don't get me wrong it is sometimes very difficult to tell what's original and whats not.
Attention to detail, preasentation, original fittings and tools, period accessories and sympathetic addition of safety devices are all items graded. In the end it all comes down to a score and the highest score wins. Usually, if there is a tied result then you have to be impersonal and select one.

If your tool is valid and applied objectively then there should be no arguments, or at least you can stand by your decision. Often however there is one stand out vehicle in a class that should win.

Amazing what a bit of polish can doParticularly when there was a liberally applied enamel overcoat that is oxidised enough to polish off.

It is a great job done by Shonky, but don't allow any tents personally inspect the vehicle or everyone will be sorry.

Diana

[Shonky]

don't allow any tents personally inspect the vehicle or everyone will be sorry.

-_-

For those unaware, a rather large army tent decided to get cuddly with Ambrose during a wind storm at Corowa '09, resulting in panel damage that is not viable to repair...

[chris1983rangie]

i guess, how could i describe the word Restoration. well i could probably say
Strip down, Refurbish, Re-Assemble. :D

it's really what you make of it and how far you want to go on originality of the vehicle and your Budget too.......!

cheers,

Chris;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Shonky

Why ddn't I notice those bright shiny wheels and GY XtraGrip tyres before?

Looks great! :) :) :)

[clean32]

interesting thread.

i have a few hours in a DH89. this was restored in the early 80s. just about every bit of wood was replaced, no one really wants to fly around in a 60 year old match box. as the frame is completely wooden, is this a new aircraft or a restoration?

how about the WW2 aircraft, restored. if you ever see what or how little is handed if to be restored.

i think the bar will be lowered as time passes. imagine in another 50 years just having an original chassis may be enough to claim a S1 as a restore

[Scallops]

..... imagine in another 50 years just having an original chassis may be enough to claim a S1 as a restore

Hey - I hope so, we'll all be passing on heirlooms! :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hey - I hope so, we'll all be passing on heirlooms! :DBut I bet there is no one who can restore a P38a or L322 or even a Disco in 50 years. All the micro-processors will have failed and no one will still produce reproductions or the software to drive them, the plastics will have all become brittle, UV damaged, cracked and fallen apart but our little 80" will still be put, put, put-ting to shows! :) :)

[Bigbjorn]

But I bet there is no one who can restore a P38a or L322 or even a Disco in 50 years. All the micro-processors will have failed and no one will still produce reproductions or the software to drive them, the plastics will have all become brittle, UV damaged, cracked and fallen apart but our little 80" will still be put, put, put-ting to shows! :) :)

If gasoline is still being made!

[clean32]

If gasoline is still being made!


no problem, empty coke can, banana skin and a flux capacitor

[JDNSW]

If gasoline is still being made!

With minor modifications
(fuel pump diaphragm and rejetting the carburetter) it will run quite well on 100% alcohol.

John

[Bigbjorn]

With minor modifications
(fuel pump diaphragm and rejetting the carburetter) it will run quite well on 100% alcohol.

John

But how would you keep it in the tank and out of Diana?

[lro11]

I was reading about the series 1 engine was designed to run on a variety of fuels anyway.

[chazza]

An interesting debate this one and one that surfaces from time-to-time in car clubs and forums.

I think the definition of the words used to describe doing-up an old car are often confused with something else; for example these come from the "Concise Oxford Dictionary":
restore 1. bring back or attempt to bring back to the original state by rebuilding; repainting; repairing etc. Seems to me this is a very good descriptor of what we do to our Land-Rovers.

replica 2. a facsimile an exact copy(often used incorrectly to describe a special build e.g. HM Bark Endeavour; D-type Jaguar special)

reproduction 3. made in imitation of a certain style... Much like the castings I make for the S1 cooling system - not exact copies but close enough to work and look correct. Endeavour is really a reproduction.

original 1. existing from the beginning. As Diana pointed out (and others before her) the only cars which are original are those that left the factory and have been unmolested since then. The only examples I have ever heard of were a pair of Morris Minors in the UK in 1977; neither had been for their first oil change; one had done 150 miles since new and the other 450 miles! Even the brown paper to protect the seats from grubby sales people, was still on them! Cars such as these, if they exist anywhere, would be worth a fortune, not just in a monetary sense but as reference to would be restorers.

None of this matters much until dishonesty starts to creep into it. Cars that are described as "original condition" need to be viewed with intense suspicion; advertisements that talk about replicas are probably wrong. The owner of L48 told me that when he went to register it after its restoration, he was told that L48 already existed and was registered! Fortunately he could proves his car's provenance.

With regard to bitzers, I agree with Brian; their value is diminished and you end up wondering what it really is; which is why I go to great trouble to restore a badly rusted chassis if it means keeping the original number with the car, even though much of the chassis is no longer original. Therefore I own a restored 80", some of which is original perhaps (I can't verify what previous owners did) and most of it is not but is supposed to look like it is :)

I think the UK historic registration scheme is a good one, where points are allocated for major assemblies on a car e.g. chassis; engine; axles; of the right period and type gain full points when registering a restored car and count towards a period registration number being allocated etc.

As for the future of petrol, the same thought crossed my mind two years ago during the painfully slow restoration and I am quite prepared to try a charcoal-burner on a trailer to get it to the show :D

Cheers Charlie

[Bigbjorn]

Chazza, In the boom times of the late seventies through to the stock market crash of 1987, there was an amazing increase in the popularity of classic cars amongst wealthy Americans. It became very fashionable to own one or a few. Now true classics were getting a bit thin on the ground so some entrepreneurs got the idea of buying a classic chassis, say a '30's Packard V12, Pierce Arrow or Cadillac with an unlovely mass produced sedan body and sending it off to the coachbuilders to be made into something desirable with a new body. Dual cowl phaetons, town cars, and boat tail roadsters, exact replicas of the work of Le Baron, Cunningham and other famous period body builders started to appear at the auctions. Even happened to Deusenbergs with unpopular body styles.

At the other extreme, there is a respected restoration firm in Boston who are capable of undertaking an entire restoration in house including forgings and castings. They only accept vehicles they regard as worthy of restoring. They keep the riff-raff out by asking for an initial progress payment, in advance, of $100,000, stop work when this is used up and ask for more. Their reputation is that of producing 100 point, 100% accurate, restorations.

A well known American Amilcariste acquired a veteran Peugeot grand prix car and sent it to this firm for restoration. He records that he was asked did he want it restored as designed with a Grand Prix chassis or as built with a touring car chassis? Or restored with the GP chassis which was installed after the first race appearance when the GP chassis became available, or with the touring chassis with race modifications which was fitted again after the GP chassis was found inferior? He was asked if he wanted the body work as designed and first built, or with the cockpit side cut with shears and bent over with a hammer when it was found that Georges Boillot did not fit. Painstaking research and true attention to detail.

[subasurf]

no problem, empty coke can, banana skin and a flux capacitor

...and Mr Fusion