V8 Camshaft

[rover-56]

Hi all,

I finally got around to looking inside the engine, found rounded cam lobes - as a few people on here suggested. (200k km). Compressions seem ok though, ~150 +/-5 psi.
So it looks like I am buying a camshaft, lifters and chain & sprockets.
There are quite a few options and I was thinking about a higher torque cam rather than std or power, I rarely go over 3500rpm and its hilly around here.
Wade and Crow both do a torque cam with less overlap, and the std cam seems to have a large overlap and duration and is similar in spec to some of the aftermarket "fast" cams.
What have others done?

Terry

[Freestyler]

Terry, I have a stage 2 heatseaker cam which is a midrange cam, I find it goes quite well, but it is a 4.4 with portmatched heads and efi inlet. Still got plenty of grunt but it breaths a bit better on the highway. I only ever get over 3500rpm when towing 2ton+ or climbing a steep soft sandune in the desert.
Tim

[rover-56]

Thanks for that Tim,
Heatseeker is another one I can look at. I should have mentioned that it is a 3.5 carby 9.35cr. I will be keeping the carbs and std ex. manifold, but I will clean up the ports a bit.
Cheers,
Terry

[I Love My Landy!]

G’day Terry,

My Dad and I recently rebuilt the 3.5L V8 (carby, high compression, ports previously matched and polished, LPG) in my ’84 County, and we spent a very long time researching suitable camshafts. The motor had previously been fitted with a stage 2 Heatseeker camshaft which made it terrible to drive. It had no low-down torque so hills were always a big problem, even at highway speeds. This cam may have been okay in a larger V8 or in a lighter car, but it was not suited to the little 3.5L V8 at all. We also tried a different stage 2 camshaft but the result was the same.

Wanting to get some drivability back we searched for a camshaft that would primarily have good low down torque, but still go okay on the highway. We got suggestions for many different camshafts however after much research we chose the pre-pollution camshaft that the early (pre 1975 I think) Range Rovers used as recommended by T.R. Spares and a couple of other places. This camshaft totally transformed the vehicle! Low down torque has been massively improved, and it actually performs even better than the previous camshafts on the highway. The County now accelerates up the same hills where before it would slow down even after a run up. The power delivery and idling is also smooth, and we have now got increased vacuum.

This camshaft gets our vote!

Edward J

[rover-56]

Gday Edward,
Thanks for the reply (sorry I have been off the air thanks to the usual ipstar satellite hassles :mad:). I hadn't thought of an earlier rover cam, I will look up the specs an compare them with the Wade and Crow torque cams.
I have never driven a Rover V8 that didn't have power problems of some sort or other, so I don't know how it is supposed to perform anyway. (late 85 County with 5 speed box). All I know is my TD5 auto Disco leaves it behind on hills.
I would really like to get it right first time.
Thanks again.
Terry

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Assuming your running carby setup, an injected cam makes for good low down torque. An injected cam around the 270 range aparently works excellent. See Piper cams page on it here Products - Piper Cams - Europe’s leading manufacturer of performance camshafts (http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product.php?pid=V8BP270i)

Have just recently done a cam change in the Classic and wasnt a happy camper.

Do a search and you should find my post.

Cheers

Andrew.

[rover-56]

Thanks Andrew,
Thats interesting re the injection camshafts.
I am still trolling through pages of cam data, the more I look the more variations there are.
Rover used a mix of cam timings for the V8 too, just to confuse me:confused:.
I see that Crow cams list the efi cam as a high torque cam for carb engines, so that looks like the direction to go.
Cheers
Terry

[I Love My Landy!]

G'day Terry,

I found my V8 with the previous stage 2 camshafts to be very underpowered, especially on hills, however with the early Range Rover camshaft i reckon it now has enough power (well the power is in a more useable rev range). I can keep at the speed limit on most hills, even when fully loaded with passengers and gear. A 4.6 would still be nice though :ohyes:

Speaking of EFI cams, the 3.9L EFI cam was also suggested by a few experts. But then again some experts said NOT to go for that cam!

T.R. Spares here in Sydney use the pre-pollution camshafts from the early Rangies in all the V8's they rebuild. You could always give them a call on (02) 9709 5611 (i am in no way affiliated with this business). There was also a Land Rover mechanic in Canberra who swore by the pre-pollution camshafts, but i cannot find his phone number at the moment.

Overall i am very happy with the new torque my little V8 has.

Edward :)

[rover-56]

Well, the decision is made, I bought a Crow 'hi torque' camshaft.

I was starting to suffer information overload there for a while, Rover have quite a few variations in their camshafts, its hard to tell one from another from the valve timing data, but they all seem to be around 60 deg. overlap and 280 deg. duration, except the efi cam which is slightly less.
These timings are not much different to aftermarket 'stage 1' cams.

The Crow cam timing is inlet 16-58 deg. and exhaust 65-19 with 254/264 duration, which matches my understanding of high torque timing.
I know there is more to it than that - like cam profile and lobe separation, but that info is hard to get.

Hopefully it will do the job, although I remember fitting a Dynotec stage 1 cam ino a RR I once owned, and it made not one scrap of difference:mad:. We will see.....

Thanks for the comments guys, I will let y'all know how it goes.:)

Cheers,
Terry

[Fett]

Well, the decision is made, I bought a Crow 'hi torque' camshaft.

I was starting to suffer information overload there for a while, Rover have quite a few variations in their camshafts, its hard to tell one from another from the valve timing data, but they all seem to be around 60 deg. overlap and 280 deg. duration, except the efi cam which is slightly less.
These timings are not much different to aftermarket 'stage 1' cams.

The Crow cam timing is inlet 16-58 deg. and exhaust 65-19 with 254/264 duration, which matches my understanding of high torque timing.
I know there is more to it than that - like cam profile and lobe separation, but that info is hard to get.

Hopefully it will do the job, although I remember fitting a Dynotec stage 1 cam ino a RR I once owned, and it made not one scrap of difference:mad:. We will see.....

Thanks for the comments guys, I will let y'all know how it goes.:)

Cheers,
Terry

what happened with this thread guys?

I am wanting a cam for my 4.4 leyland p76 v8 going in to my 72 range rover. I have a new old stock low compression 8.13:1 3.5 rover v8 cam to go in from the 80's but I am wondering as I am now using landrover 8.13:1 pistons in the 4.4 to get about 9.5:1 compression which cam will safely get the most out of the motor?

[rover-56]

The Crow camshaft was fine. It disappointed me at first, with normal driving it didn't seem any different to the worn cam, but the first time I towed (2.5 T Defender + trailer) I was amazed. for a carb 3.5 I thought it very good.

With hindsight though I think I went a bit too far, a less tourquey cam would have been a better all round choice.

I did like the way it would stay above 2500rpm with any load on any hill in any gear - including 5th.

Don't know anything about the 4.4 though, I have been told that a 3.9 efi cam works well in carb engines.

Wendy at Crow cams is pretty switched on with profiles.

Terry

[Fett]

Thanks, one bloke who re-build a p76 engine has advised that I go for a Dynatech stage two cam but I have had no luck getting hold of them to find out if that requires mods to the valve timing, I dont suppose anyone on here knows?

Like you say I dont want all torque as the 4.4 has 285ftlbs as standard and I am sure that will be enough to break the 72 rrc driveline somewhere lol

some of the nice timing chain set ups on that dynatech site look nice too!

will chuck an email to crow cams and see what they reckon :)

[aussiebushman]

G'day Terry,

I found my V8 with the previous stage 2 camshafts to be very underpowered, especially on hills, however with the early Range Rover camshaft i reckon it now has enough power (well the power is in a more useable rev range). I can keep at the speed limit on most hills, even when fully loaded with passengers and gear.

Overall i am very happy with the new torque my little V8 has.

Edward :)

Not sure how old your post is, but I could do with some impartial advice. My 91 has been a wonderful vehicle - much upgraded by me and the previous owner and is is excellent nick except the torque has dropped off badly of late and struggles to climb hills etc.

After changing the plugs, coil, filters, fuel pump and air flow meter I can only conclude it is the camshaft causing the lack of power.

It is hard for me to justify over $1k for a Crower or equivalent because of my age, where I live and the limited use of this vehicle. (I also have a 93 with a top-hatted 4.6 engine running dual fuel)

I am tempted by this $440 kit from British Auto parts - Land Rover Parts - CAMSHAFT KIT 3.9 V8 early (1991-94) (original spec, click for kit contents) (https://www.roverparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/1232/40361) However, there have been reports that some "cheap" camshafts wear out after a very short time.

Your (and others) comments would be much appreciated

[LRJim]

Not sure how old your post is, but I could do with some impartial advice. My 91 has been a wonderful vehicle - much upgraded by me and the previous owner and is is excellent nick except the torque has dropped off badly of late and struggles to climb hills etc.

After changing the plugs, coil, filters, fuel pump and air flow meter I can only conclude it is the camshaft causing the lack of power.

It is hard for me to justify over $1k for a Crower or equivalent because of my age, where I live and the limited use of this vehicle. (I also have a 93 with a top-hatted 4.6 engine running dual fuel)

I am tempted by this $440 kit from British Auto parts - Land Rover Parts - CAMSHAFT KIT 3.9 V8 early (1991-94) (original spec, click for kit contents) (https://www.roverparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/1232/40361) However, there have been reports that some "cheap" camshafts wear out after a very short time.

Your (and others) comments would be much appreciatedGive Steve a call and ask him about the quality of the cam, he's really good he won't bull**** you about it. If it's a not the best quality he will tell you and where to go from there or order one In for you. He's helped me out plenty of times a little pricy sometimes but he knows his ****.
Cheers Jim

[PhilipA]

IMHO having modified a77 and 91 V8 , the cam is the last thing you should change.
l
The most bang for the buck for a 91 is to fit a Unichip which will control the advance curve and this will give about 30% increase in torque from 1500 tapering to 3000.

While I modified the heads which gave about 7%,fitted Mustang injectors,and a Thor inlet manifold,the Unichip was probably the best investment,although the Thor was also great and ended under up with Unichip giving 50% more torque down low traded for 10% up high.

This is all Dyno confirmed.
In my experience from long ago threads it seems to me that all these cam companies think you are fitting cams to a car with a high power to weight ratio not a 2 tonne 4 we’d which sits at 2100 rpm at 100 kms, and needs torque there, not at 3000.
regards Philip A

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yea, LR did very well to keep the D2 max torque to 2600,,
Have yet to find an aftermarket supplier that has it that low,,

[aussiebushman]

Thanks for your comments. Actually there has been a development and not a good one - though it might help to identify the source of the problem.

Since my last post, I unscrewed and cleaned the stepper motor (without removing the mounting block) and sprayed it with electrical parts cleaner. It was not particularly dirty but the plunger seemed very stiff and did not want to move. Is this the likely culprit?

I also stripped the MAF sensor and sprayed the wires too- no I did not poke anything into the hole to cause damage! I do have access to a replacement if you think that might be worth trying.

Drove the vehicle up a couple of steep hills on the property today and it WAS WORSE. Not only does it still lack torque but it the engine is now cutting out and/or pulsing. This seems to me that the problem is NOT the camshaft - that has not been touched,

I may not have mentioned that I live in the bush 1.5 hours from the nearest reliable mechanic so getting professional test measurements etc is pretty near impossible if the vehicle is not reliable to get me there and back

Any suggestions?

[PhilipA]

It was not particularly dirty but the plunger seemed very stiff and did not want to move. Is this the likely culprit
You should not try to move the plunger.
it is a worm arrangement inside which is rotated by a stepper motor. Just like a D3 park brake LOL.
I pulled one apart as I was curious.
The stepper however is not the problem as it only affects idle as it provides a bypass from the throttle blade.

If the cam is very worn, it will not open valves so the engine will lack torque and may miss . I had it happen to me on Cape York and it progressively got weaker on the way home.
A compression test should indicate whether you have a blown head gasket or worn cam.
Regards Philip A

[ozscott]

Gday Edward,
Thanks for the reply (sorry I have been off the air thanks to the usual ipstar satellite hassles :mad:). I hadn't thought of an earlier rover cam, I will look up the specs an compare them with the Wade and Crow torque cams.
I have never driven a Rover V8 that didn't have power problems of some sort or other, so I don't know how it is supposed to perform anyway. (late 85 County with 5 speed box). All I know is my TD5 auto Disco leaves it behind on hills.
I would really like to get it right first time.
Thanks again.
TerryI have a D1. 1995 V8. 3.9. 300,000. Goes like stink. They are not highway miles. Original camshaft. Most V8's pur up over those miles without issue. My D1 stock is quick and silky quiet and smooth. Cheers

[aussiebushman]

You should not try to move the plunger.
it is a worm arrangement inside which is rotated by a stepper motor. Just like a D3 park brake LOL.
I pulled one apart as I was curious.
The stepper however is not the problem as it only affects idle as it provides a bypass from the throttle blade.

If the cam is very worn, it will not open valves so the engine will lack torque and may miss . I had it happen to me on Cape York and it progressively got weaker on the way home.
A compression test should indicate whether you have a blown head gasket or worn cam.
Regards Philip A

Thanks Philip and apologies for the delay in responding.

Have managed to achieve some improvement after I saw a post dealing with the wiring from the coil being too close to the alternator so I have moved it well clear. I also cleaned out the breather in the rocker cover - absolutely disgusting mess of rusted wire.

I do have a compression tester but not sure how to tell whether a camshaft or something else is the reason torque is still not good. However, at least now I should be able to drive it without fear of being stranded - again!

[aussiebushman]

Got the 91 through rego inspections today and talked with the mechanic about the torque issue. He is not a Land Rover person but offered the suggestion that it is not the camshaft but a timing chain that has slipped a cog

Is this feasible?

[bee utey]

Got the 91 through rego inspections today and talked with the mechanic about the torque issue. He is not a Land Rover person but offered the suggestion that it is not the camshaft but a timing chain that has slipped a cog

Is this feasible?

Vaguely feasible, but once the chain has jumped a tooth it will shortly jump another and cease to run at all. Chain jump will also show up as massively retarded ignition timing so a check with a timing light is in order.

[aussiebushman]

Yes - that make sense. Although sluggish on hills. there is no evidence of anything more serious, Yesterday I dropped into 3rd and rocketed up to 120 from 80 to pass three trucks with no difficulty at all. Can't be all that bad to do that.

I'll just have to get some money together and take the vehicle to Graeme Coopers for a thorough going-over. I built and manage their website and have done business with them since Graeme first opened the doors so I know I'll get the right advice

[Lewy110]

I had similar problems in my 84 County. It turned out to be the advance in the dizzy. I put in a new one and it totally changed how it drove.

Went from struggling to hold 80kmh up hills on the Hume to sailing over at 120kmh.

Might be worth checking

[aussiebushman]

Thanks - good advice
Cheers
Alan

[LRJim]

Thanks - good advice
Cheers
AlanLiterally just fixed mine at home on the kitchen table it worked a treat! Suck on the hose and stick your tounge on it, it should have vacuum. If it dosnt you have nothing to lose, crack the sucker open and have a look at the diphram theres only gonna be 1 thing wrong with it. It's doing nothing if it's got no vac you can drive without it plugged in if you **** it up.
Cheers Jim

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yes,, make sure the dizzy is performing as it should,
after that its down to age of the cam lobes, these tend to erode over time... [wink11]

[aussiebushman]

Good advice about the distributor. It may be coincidence or perhaps it was one of you who told Stuart (Graeme Cooper) about finding a broken "cutter" inside his distributor that he was able to repair himself - Stuart called me to suggest I investigate this.

However, neither the manuals nor extensive Internet searches show what to look for. Can anyone please provide a reference link or picture?

[LRJim]

Good advice about the distributor. It may be coincidence or perhaps it was one of you who told Stuart (Graeme Cooper) about finding a broken "cutter" inside his distributor that he was able to repair himself - Stuart called me to suggest I investigate this.

However, neither the manuals nor extensive Internet searches show what to look for. Can anyone please provide a reference link or picture?Have you sucked on the hose yet?
Disconnect the vac hose from the intake,get your lips around it and suck suck suck, stick your tounge over it and see if it sticks!
Did you ever pull the rotor arm off? If so the weights could be dislodged. A broken weight seems highly unlikely more so dislodged easy fix, you can whack a screw in the shaft while your at it it to stop it happening again. Bee done a write up maybe under "Lucas distributor shaft screw fix" something like that anyway....

Cheers Jim

[aussiebushman]

As suggested, I'll check the vacuum advance first and then will check if the weights are jammed but I do not want to pull apart my distributor until I know what I am likely to find.

I got a description from Stuart that the broken part mentioned by his customer was like a "helicopter blade" He named the part a "cutter", but it seems the more common name is "stabbing wheel." I did some more searching and found this article on a Volvo website and the picture certainly looks right. Mine may or may not be a "hall effect" type and I won't know until I take it apart - not something I'm anxious to do

See about half way down the article describing "hall effect" distributors - https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/ElectricalIgnition.html#DoesMyCarHaveaHallorRPMSen sor (https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/ElectricalIgnition.html#DoesMyCarHaveaHallorRPMSen sor)

The article says the hall effect sensors were discontinued for Volvos in the late 80's but certainly may be the type used on Range Rovers up to early 90s (or changed to this type later): Replacement parts may still be available on the Internet if I can identify the right one

[LRJim]

I guess you don't have the RAVE book? The disco one had a breakdown of the distributor. Not much in them really BUT it dosnt explain how to assemble the weights unfortunately, there's some info online about the weight assembly.
Cheers Jim
1st photo, top right corner is all the componentshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/710c422e47dd28c01de56d5388385d83.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/cd8a10f551e0868bff2705d14cb2c784.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/13c4d36f8b6960489c2cc7dc0afa948b.jpg

[bee utey]

As suggested, I'll check the vacuum advance first and then will check if the weights are jammed but I do not want to pull apart my distributor until I know what I am likely to find.

I got a description from Stuart that the broken part mentioned by his customer was like a "helicopter blade" He named the part a "cutter", but it seems the more common name is "stabbing wheel." I did some more searching and found this article on a Volvo website and the picture certainly looks right. Mine may or may not be a "hall effect" type and I won't know until I take it apart - not something I'm anxious to do

See about half way down the article describing "hall effect" distributors - https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/ElectricalIgnition.html#DoesMyCarHaveaHallorRPMSen sor (https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/ElectricalIgnition.html#DoesMyCarHaveaHallorRPMSen sor)

The article says the hall effect sensors were discontinued for Volvos in the late 80's but certainly may be the type used on Range Rovers up to early 90s (or changed to this type later): Replacement parts may still be available on the Internet if I can identify the right one

Unless your distributor has an aftermarket electronic ignition kit fitted, there will be no "cutter" or Hall effect pickup unit. The best thing to do with an aftermarket conversion is to dump it and fit a D1 type distributor as described by LRJim below. These have a simple magnetic pickup and a "reluctor" wheel and have an external electronic module. The module can be removed and upgraded to a Bosch 024 module on a remote heat sink away from the engine.

[Lewy110]

That's what I fitted to my V8 County and what is currently fitted to my Stage One V8.

Never had an issue with it in either one.

[aussiebushman]

Thanks Guys

This 1991 situation is "on hold" for the moment because of struggles with my other (1993 SE) Rangie. That one just had an expensive radiator change after blowing an oil cooler and although it started and ran for me, it will not do so for the mechanic - he claims there is no trigger at the coil. Until that is sorted, I am not game to mess with the 91 - at least that one is going!