Defender Traction Control

[UNDEROVER]

I do a bit of fishing, which involves dragging my boat up the beach on a regular basis, and I've had a problem with the traction control working too well. In soft sand, the more wheels spinning at the same time the better, especially with a boat in tow. But I'm faced with the issue of the traction control trying to lock the spinning wheels while I'm trying to traverse a soft section of sand, effectively leaving me a fraction short of where I need to be. Now I have been told that you can actually turn the traction control off in a Landy, by leaving the thing with the diff lock engaged, and then turning the vehicle off and then on again, which leaves the traction control disabled.
Can anyone shed some light on this, as I haven't had the opportunity to test the theory as yet?

[Benny_IIA]

I do a bit of fishing, which involves dragging my boat up the beach on a regular basis, and I've had a problem with the traction control working too well. In soft sand, the more wheels spinning at the same time the better, especially with a boat in tow. But I'm faced with the issue of the traction control trying to lock the spinning wheels while I'm trying to traverse a soft section of sand, effectively leaving me a fraction short of where I need to be. Now I have been told that you can actually turn the traction control off in a Landy, by leaving the thing with the diff lock engaged, and then turning the vehicle off and then on again, which leaves the traction control disabled.
Can anyone shed some light on this, as I haven't had the opportunity to test the theory as yet?


I think that is only on D2 with out the diff lock "hooked up" from factory.

I did read this some were though (defender only i think ?)

When you switch the ignition on and you step on the brake pedal 10x within 10 seconds it disables the traction control. I tested (not actually offroad) and it seems to work. The traction control light stays on all the time until you switch the ignition off.


ben...

[dmdigital]

Yes if it's a Td5 Defender from memory you can disengage it by doing something with the clutch at startup. I think its in the back of the owner's handbook, but there were posts on here about it a few years back.

That reminds me I meant to look for how to do this and try it on the Puma.

[Blknight.aus]

nope thats a disco thing... (pipped at the post by DM td5 and benny orignal post was to underover)

try turning the key to the run position. quickly pressing the brake pedal 10 times then turning the key to the start position.

works on some deefers only and if it does work it resets if you turn the ignition off for any reason. (if you have a turbo timer you can usually turn it on on the fly by turning the ignition off long enough for the turbo timer to start then turning the ignition back on, when the turbo timer times out the engine will momentarily loose power and then be on again resetting everything)

for DMtd5.

I have heard but havent tested that holding the clutch in while starting the engine with the tcase in high range, then shifting to low will stop the idle jack in 1/low. I suspect its a rumour but then so was the 10 presses of the brake pedal thing when I orginally heard that one.

[dmdigital]

Dave, the reason I'm suspicious of the Puma's TC is the system is a Wabco-D same as the Td5. I'll have to give it a go one day to appease my curiosity.

[Blknight.aus]

near as i can tell from what Ive seen its more or less the same system

I always had a nagging suspsion that the TC disable thing was ECU linked not wabco linked as in there was a secret hand shake you had to know to ask the ECU to tell the wabco to not respont to the request for TC to kick in..

(if it was wabco linked it would work on all vehicles that have TC with that Wabco unit was always my way of thinking)

[UNDEROVER]

Thanks for the info, and I'll give it a try. I've never heard of either of those solutions up until now. all I can say is that this site is a wealth of information on the beloved LR, and I'm trying to adapt after having a 2A for about 12 or so years, which I knew inside out and back to front, to something so technical in the way of the extreme. All I can say is, I had no traction controll issues with the 2A!:)

[dmdigital]

near as i can tell from what Ive seen its more or less the same system

I always had a nagging suspsion that the TC disable thing was ECU linked not wabco linked as in there was a secret hand shake you had to know to ask the ECU to tell the wabco to not respont to the request for TC to kick in..

(if it was wabco linked it would work on all vehicles that have TC with that Wabco unit was always my way of thinking)
Wabco-D now communicates to the CANbus but otherwise its the same ECU, same with the Lucas 10AS alarm.

My thought's are the same that it's actually a handshake with the ECU and of course that's completely different.

[UNDEROVER]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "wabco"...

[dmdigital]

Sorry to have somewhat hijacked your thread.

The Wabco-D is the electronic control unit (ECU) that is the brains of the ABS and TC on the Defender Td5 and Puma.

[Blknight.aus]

wabco is the mob that make up the ABS/TC module.

its the thing that you're trying to turn off.

pulling the fuse works but you loose both TC and ABS doing so.


if the secret handshake method of 10 brake presses ya,ya,ya works you retain ABS but the TC stays of..



try this thread

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/37532-traction-control-good-bad.html

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I've found my ARB airlockers very effective at stopping the TC working :eek: :wasntme:

Having said that I didn't really notice any huge shortcomings with the TC system itself.

[dmdigital]

Same here, works very well. Just curious if the Puma system can be shut off.

[UNDEROVER]

With regards to the TC, how does it actually compare with a vehcle with diff locks? I have found it great on relatively stable surfaces like rock etc but on anything loose it seems to be a bit counter productive.

[dmdigital]

I haven't found it a problem it actually got me out of a couple of fixes in very soft beach sand.

Lockers are whole world of difference as they remove any differential action. In the case of a front locker steering can become...ummm... interesting, to say the least.

[stig0000]

i think il just be pulling the fues for the fraser trip this weekend,, then dont hav to wory about doing the 10 pumps every time i tern on;)

i like to have some slide in the sand, cdl and speed and your going to be allrite,

[miky]

With regards to the TC, how does it actually compare with a vehcle with diff locks? I have found it great on relatively stable surfaces like rock etc but on anything loose it seems to be a bit counter productive.

There is a video somewhere that shows a puma crawling through soft sand (no one sitting inside) and you can actually see the TC working on the wheels. Puma just kept on going - very impressive.

[rangieman]

i think il just be pulling the fues for the fraser trip this weekend,, then dont hav to wory about doing the 10 pumps every time i tern on;)

i like to have some slide in the sand, cdl and speed and your going to be allrite,
Yes pull the fuse but that also means you will lose the ABS which is,nt a bad thing off road in my opinion:cool:

[stig0000]

Yes pull the fuse but that also means you will lose the ABS which is,nt a bad thing off road in my opinion:cool:

im with you on that, i to hate abs offroad

[Captain_Rightfoot]

i think il just be pulling the fues for the fraser trip this weekend,, then dont hav to wory about doing the 10 pumps every time i tern on;)

i like to have some slide in the sand, cdl and speed and your going to be allrite,

For the life of me I can't work out why you'd want to do that. We have TC and F&R lockers in our truck. When you're doing something serious the lockers are engaged and they are great.

HOWEVER - there have been a number of times when I've been just doing stuff in sand, and the car has made a surprise attempt to dig a hole for itself - and then just as it is starting to descend into that hole the TC intervenes and then the car feels as though it is lifting itself out of the hole! How good is that.

I'm very glad we've got TC there as our backup. One day, when you're in the soft sand at Eli Ck, you will pull away and next thing you'll be up to the axles... very embarrassing and totally avoidable.

The reason we fitted diff locks is primarily for mechanical sympathy and capability reasons. If you are in remote areas (say off the track in the Simpson) the TC works very hard. Also, diff locks are easier on the mechanicals as they don't let any slip develop.

[rangieman]

Yes pull the fuse but that also means you will lose the ABS which is,nt a bad thing off road in my opinion:cool:
Just to add a bit more to this before i get jumped on , A none ABS car will stop in a shorter distance on dirt than a car with ABS;)

Yes you loose the ability to steer under brakes with out ABS , But im talking in 4wd conditions where speed is not a issue but the ABS braking is:cool:

[Blknight.aus]

I've said it before and doubtless I'll say it again..

TC/ABS should be considered as warning devices to let you know that you are approaching the limitations of what you can make the vehicle do.

[stig0000]

For the life of me I can't work out why you'd want to do that. We have TC and F&R lockers in our truck. When you're doing something serious the lockers are engaged and they are great.

HOWEVER - there have been a number of times when I've been just doing stuff in sand, and the car has made a surprise attempt to dig a hole for itself - and then just as it is starting to descend into that hole the TC intervenes and then the car feels as though it is lifting itself out of the hole! How good is that.

I'm very glad we've got TC there as our backup. One day, when you're in the soft sand at Eli Ck, you will pull away and next thing you'll be up to the axles... very embarrassing and totally avoidable.

The reason we fitted diff locks is primarily for mechanical sympathy and capability reasons. If you are in remote areas (say off the track in the Simpson) the TC works very hard. Also, diff locks are easier on the mechanicals as they don't let any slip develop.


i fully under stand were your coming from,, but its just one of them personal things, i think tc is great ,, it terns a very good car into a exlent 4wder, (as the defender is:p),, but in sand i feel id rather without, the hole simpson trip we had the fuse pulled, and never had one troble,

and out there we had our own test, west side of big red, with tc berly half way, tc off 1m from the top, we still dident make it but we dident bog down untill the very very steep and soft top lip, we even made it ferther then our mates in a tdv8 sport:D:D

[rangieman]

I've said it before and doubtless I'll say it again..

TC/ABS should be considered as warning devices to let you know that you are approaching the limitations of what you can make the vehicle do.
That being your opinion:cool: , we all have different opinions and my opinion is ABS can be DANGEROUS on wet slippery down hill slopes , give me a none ABS car in these conditions anytime when braking is needed;)

[Blknight.aus]

Im curious, how do you figure that one out?

[dmdigital]

The only time I had an issue with ABS was on my D1. D2 and Puma are a lot better ABS off road, but you need to drive accordingly.

From my experience, corrugations and gravel are the worst combination with ABS.

Having 1.5t of braked trailer (hydraulic disks) behind makes stopping a breeze though if you crank up the controller output off road.

[rangieman]

Im curious, how do you figure that one out?
Simple , it suprises me that you havent worked it out , it is a known fact that a locked wheel builds up dirt or mud in front of it slowing forward motion , As with ABS as soon as a wheel is locked it releases the the brake hence allowing no reduction in forward motion :cool:
So there is lesson # 1

We have done this at work with 2 identical cars one with the ABS fuse removed the other with the ABS intact with a full on braking stop from 80 km/h on the dirt , The none ABS car stopped a good car and a half length before the ABS car , Dont get me wrong ABS has its place as in on road and wet roads not so much off road :cool:

Ive watched a automatic ABS Tdi disco come down a slippery hill that id just gone down in my old manual Tdi Defender and it was scary to watch and be in that disco

Now i have a Td5 Defender with ABS and ive been in some situations with the ABS off road that im not impressed with :eek:

Now this is only my opinion that ive experienced With ABS IN off road conditions :angel:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Simple , it suprises me that you havent worked it out , it is a known fact that a locked wheel builds up dirt or mud in front of it slowing forward motion , As with ABS as soon as a wheel is locked it releases the the brake hence allowing no reduction in forward motion :cool:
So there is lesson # 1

We have done this at work with 2 identical cars one with the ABS fuse removed the other with the ABS intact with a full on braking stop from 80 km/h on the dirt , The none ABS car stopped a good car and a half length before the ABS car , Dont get me wrong ABS has its place as in on road and wet roads not so much off road :cool:

Ive watched a automatic ABS Tdi disco come down a slippery hill that id just gone down in my old manual Tdi Defender and it was scary to watch and be in that disco

Now i have a Td5 Defender with ABS and ive been in some situations with the ABS off road that im not impressed with :eek:

Now this is only my opinion that ive experienced With ABS IN off road conditions :angel:
I certainly would not argue that ABS increases stopping distances in vehicles on dirt. I'm pretty sure I can still see the picture in the owners manual of my first ABS equipped car of exactly what you speak of, with a note about increased stopping distances on dirt.

However, in favour of ABS is the fact that you can steer while ABS is functioning. A non ABS car may well stop quicker, but it is also likely to follow the camber into the drain, whereas the ABS equipped car should steer and stay on the road while taking slightly longer to stop.

We're not debating that ABS is far better under emergency conditions than non ABS cars on bitumen though, are we? Surely not.

Another thing to watch is that if you disable the ABS I really doubt your car will be considered roadworthy as you've disabled a very significant part of the safety hardware. Whether this has insurance implications... who knows.

For me... I think I'll keep the ABS in my fender. I acknowledge that in some circumstances it might not work as well... but I'd rather have a slightly increased stopping distance than the potential that an emergency stop could spin the car on dirt and have the family rolling down the road.

[Blknight.aus]

nope, not on bitumen just off road....

professional race drivers driving normal cars can under ideal circumstances out brake abs, but only just and not reliabley.

for off road did you repeat the tests with corners or was is straight line braking only....

and as for identical..... there aint no such beast in the automotive world. if youd done it with the same car with the same driver with the abs fuse pulled Id have given you more credit, but a couple of PSI difference in tyre pressure at 80KPH is good for a car length under brakes. faded shocky, different amount of fuel in the tank, hell the misread on the speedo between 2 cars on the same production line can give you up to 5kph difference in real speed over the ground.