LT95 for 101

[PeterP]

Hi, Looking for some advice. I have done the rear diff and rear tail shaft on CanDo and still have the death rattle which is now obviously coming from the gearbox so I have pulled it out (again).

The noise is hard to describe -
1. It is loud enough to think that I will do more damage driving it too much, it sounds like everything should be vibrating but it is more noise than anything
2. Under acceleration its all good, when you back off the death rattle starts, clutch in it’s the same, use a bit a accelerator and it goes away.
3. Pulled the front tail shaft off and two wheel driving the noise is about 5 % less but still very significant.
4. The noise is noticeable from any speed from 20 to 90km/h, the more the speed the more volume.
5. There is plenty of oil coming from the pinion shaft seal at the front and both the front and rear output seals leak a small amount (Almost acceptable in LR terms ;) ).
6.Pulled off all the covers etc and the box looks good inside.
7. The magnetic plug has a little bit of grunge with some small speaks of silver in it but nothing that rings alarm bells.
8. The output shafts have no play I can feel. Grabbing the flywheel end of the primary pinion shaft I can move it 1mm+ up and down.

I am not brave enough to try to fix it myself but still considering this option. Can get a taper bearing military box but $4.5K is a bit overboard.

Does anyone know, if I get a standard Rangie LT95. is it just a case of swapping the 101 bell housing over or is there more? :confused:

Thanks Peter

[101 Ron]

Hi Peter
A standard classic range rover transmission should fit, but the transfercase high range ratio will be different and most likely for the better as gearing up the 101 is good for highway work.
I wouldnt pull the transmission.
Get some leaf spring caster correction wedges to fit under the rear springs.
I have some on my 101 which allows you to change the rear tail shaft uni joint angles.
may be your rear springs have settled abit or the transmission alignment is out a little bit.
Sounds like you are getting tail shaft rumble in the rear tail shaft.
Under load the tailshaft finds it hard to break free abit and rumble.
on the float it will rumble and under hard engine breaking or deceleration load and the rumble will be reduced.
I found to run speedi seleeves on all the diff and transfercase drive flanges whether they need it or not for wear as it tightens the seal a bit more and reduces the chances of leaks.
I also loctite the diff and transfercase flange splines as to reduce possible free. play.........even though it means using a puller to disassemble at a later date.
After the long run back from stockton in 40 degree heat cruising at 100 kph there was no leaks from the diff or transmission drive flange seals.....the speedi seleeves help.

[101RRS]

Peter,

Up until the bit where you said the noise is still there with the front shaft removed I would have said it sounded exactly like front driveshaft rumble. I agree with Ron that if may be the rear shaft. Take it out and go for a drive with your new front one in and see if you still have the same.

If it is still there I would have a look at the front bearing in the tfr case in front of the CDL - if you old front shaft had been shaking a lot then the front bearing may have taken a hit.

As far as the gearbox is concerned - yes the bell housing is shorter but the input shaft is also shorter so it is not just a matter of just dropping in a RR gerabox. I believe that there are also some other minor internal differences that do not impact the use of the box.

The 101s are rare enought to warrant keeping the original box and transfer case (unique 101 numbers) so I would exhaust other option before gearbox replacement.

Garry

[PeterP]

The noise was there when I first drove it home and I did feel the infamous front shaft rumble along the highway but only over 85K and it was as I had read it described. At the time I was more worried about getting the sick motor home in one piece.

It is sitting at exactly the same height with the new springs. The diff has new bearings fitted when the locker was fitted. I had the tail shaft fitted with new uni's and balanced and the noise is the same as always. Take the load off with any amount of acceleration and all is quiet.

The problem has to be in the box, so I will keep searching. Might try to find a cheapy box to learn on.


speedi seleeves on all the diff and transfercase drive flanges
Ron, pardon my ignorance but I am not sure what speedi sleeves are. Please explain?

Peter

[101 Ron]

Speedi sleeves are a stainless steel surface which is lightly press fitted over a worn surface on a shaft where a oil seal lip runs.
It is a cheap and quick way to repair worn surfaces on shafts for seals as it saves replacement of the shaft, or machining and the press fit of a one off sleeve of much greater thickness at great cost.
A speedi sleeve is only a few thou thick and is available at any bearing supplier, all you have to do is give them a sample or exact measurements.
I tend to fit them sometimes on shafts which are OK for no other reason than that they make a existing seal a little bit tighter on the shaft and seal better.
This tighter sealing tends to make the seal work better if there may be any run out or problems with the shaft the seal is running on.
It will cost about $30 dollars per drive flange.
They are simple to install at home with a tool provided and a hammer.
I have the part number you require some where if you want to buy one.

[101 Ron]

Peter.
You have not done many miles in your 101.
I wouldnt pull out the gearbox yet.
It still seems you have the tail shaft rumbles and is a standard factory problem which causes no major prroblems other than it seems there is some thing wrong when there is not.
If you have your double ended double cardon tail shaft for the front, is there way of fitting it to the rear in full or one end of it to test the effects.
I fear you may be pulling out the transmission of your 101 for no reason.
All 101s make a noise and it sounds like if it is terminal to people who do not know the vehicle well.
the fact you are telling us it is speed related and throttle drive load on and off related backs this up.
On my 101 there is a small vib at 100 kph or more too on the float too.
My 101 with the castor correction wedges in the rear , if fitted the wrong way around can cause the rear tailshaft to make a noise too.
Peter you have just refitted the motor and transmission and new springs and there are many things drive line angle wise which may have changed slightly.
The high UJ working angles make the drive line on the 101 a bit touchy at the best of times.

[101 Ron]

A gearbox or transfercase bearing will usually happen in a certain gear or just be a constant noise with load.
Wear in the transfercase is usually indicated by it jumping out of gear underload.
Diff pinion bearing noise will be constant or if there is enough float which can be detected by hand (ie loose pinion nut ) the crown wheel will suck in the pinion on the overdrive going down a hill and make a noise.

[101RRS]

I have to agree with Ron on this one - sounds exactly like 101 driveshaft noise - symptoms fit it to a tee.

Garry

[cooee]

hi peter:D
nice to have talk with you enjoued your photos done great job
i agree with ron and garry sounds like drive shaft noise mine use to do it
i found if you backed off on throttle a little bit went away on mine
just try your for a while before takeing out gear box
i might try and come and see you see if i can help you :)
cheers cooee;)

[PeterP]

Thanks all for the input.

The reason I feel the noise is in the box is that if I back off at any speed from 20Ks I hear it.

I should have tried front shaft only and also coasting with the transfer in neutral. As stated in the original post I have already pulled the gearbox out.

Presently if I fill the box with oil there will be at least half a litre on the ground in the morning, mostly from the front pinion seal. So I will get the seals and gaskets sorted and see if any problems can be found while thats happening.

Then hopefully I can devour a tank of fuel or two.

Peter

[101 Ron]

The speedi sleeve part number for the drive flanges is
SKF 99187......about $30 dollars a throw

[PeterP]

Starting dismantling the gearbox. Mostly it is in good condition. All the seals have the flexibility of a piece of aluminum, certainly not rubber.

Found the oil leaking from the bell housing problem, the oil pump housing bolts were finger tight.
The main pinion bearing has a lot flex in it so I think the lack of oil in the box overall and no/low oil pressure to the main bearing is my main problem.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/136.jpg

Found metal fillings in the bell housing, I think it is from the hole cut in the top of the bell housing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/137.jpg

I have thought long and hard as to why someone would cut a hole in the bell housing. All I can come up with is same dumbo that cut the side gates had another bright idea. Perhaps to boodgy the thrust bearing clip with a bit of lock wire.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/138.jpg

The only other damage I can find other seals and bearings is the CDL locking mechanism on the diff end. I don't think it will be a problem as the shifted lock gear sit on this all the time, makes me wonder how it happened though.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/139.jpg

The front output shaft bearing seems pretty flogged so I think the front drive shaft has taken its toll. This would not be too hard to change with it in the vehicle if you had to.

So now I all need to do is build up the courage to change the main gearbox bearings myself.:eek:

All this months pics are here - LR101FC - Progress November 2009 (http://users.comcen.com.au/~peterp/LR101FC%20Progress/Nov09/index.html)

Peter

[PeterP]

Got a cheap RR box to practice on. The high range gears are 31 and 48 tooth, I am sure this makes it 1.113:1. Standard 101 is 32 and 47 tooth. I believe the .996 is 26 and 45 tooth. I am keen to try the .996. I'm told the only RR with that ratio are ones with high compression engines.

Also found the oil pump shaft was sheered off, looks like it had been this way for a while, overall the box looks in reasonable condition.

Another interesting difference is the RR has a narrow gate shift selectors. To make it work in the 101 you would have to file another flat on the end the lower gear lever #622301.
Any thoughts if a narrow gate shift would be an advantage or disadvantage with the 101 remote change?

Standard 101 wide gate selectors
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/1145.jpg

Range Rover narrow gate selectors
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/1146.jpg

Peter

[rovercare]

Not of any help, but any chance of some pics of the 101 itself?:)

[101 Ron]

I have driven a 101 with a R380 gearbox in it and once you got use to the very short throws of the gear change it was OK.
It was more like giving the gear stick a bump forwards or backwards , than the standard shift action of a deliberate arm movement.

[PeterP]

Thanks for the input Ron. I was thinking of drilling the bottom section of the RR gear shift to take the original shift lever #622300 to try it, I can always change the selectors to the original 101 if its a problem.

Rovercare, this is Can Do'a website - Can Do's and 101 Web Site (http://users.comcen.com.au/~peterp/101index.html)


Best pic since I have owned it - https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/657.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/1116.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/1117.jpg

Cheers,

Peter

[PeterP]

The noise if from the rear mainshaft bearing. See on the mainshaft blueing on the LHS where the rear bearing sits. There is a matching heat mark on the inner ring of the rear mainshaft bearing. All make sense now.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/716.jpg

And now the real reason for this post. - "What colour is the LT95 in the 101 standard?" I suspect it is straight alloy and not blushing red like mine.;)

I am spending some money on paint stripper.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/717.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/718.jpg

Peter

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Re gearbox colour Every LT95 until yours (that I have or have seen) were unpainted alloy. I'd be getting out the quick-strip and high pressure water blaster before I put it back together.


Re the short throw on the R380, wouldn't it depend on weather you used a Disco or Defender selector top and then how far up the original stick you fitted the bracket for the replicator rod. The further away from the pivot the bracket is placed the longer the throw at the drivers gearstick.

Addit: Wouldn't using an R380/LT230 combination prevent you from using the OEM bottom PTO used on the 101" for the capstan winch?

[101RRS]

And now the real reason for this post. - "What colour is the LT95 in the 101 standard?" I suspect it is straight alloy and not blushing red like mine.;)Peter

Standard is natural alloy however some people like Ron paint their filler and drain plugs bright red.

Garry

[101 Ron]

There is a reason for painting drain and filler plugs.
Not always, but some miltiary services painted them.
Red plugs were usually drain plugs, or some thing which should not be touched by drivers.
White paint was usually filler plugs and dip sticks.
Note most modern cars have yellow on the dip sticks in the engine bay to help drivers to find them.
When in service army Bliz trucks with split wheels had one set of wheel nuts painted white( Indicating to the drivers undo me) and the other set painted red( the ones holding the two halves of the wheel together and kills you if undo them with pressure in the tyre)
So red , yellow and white painted bolt, plugs and dip sticks are done for a reason and not for show.
May be Peters red painted transmission was a warning.........:p:p

[PeterP]

Re gearbox colour Every LT95 until yours (that I have or have seen) were unpainted alloy. I'd be getting out the quick-strip and high pressure water blaster before I put it back together.

DONE! Yes its hollow at this stage.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/609.jpg

Now I should not be subjected to distressing comments like "pretty red transmission........ :p"
The therapy has been difficult and expensive (bourbons not cheap!), I expected post traumatic stress disorder to set in until I heard about Ron's colour coded plugs :)
but some miltiary services painted them. Never saw any in a Naval vehicle, boat or aircraft painted! There are some bronze plugs that could do with a good dose of Brasso though!:D

Cheers,

Peter

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Very pretty...... or should that be looks very original.

The way it should be! :)

[PeterP]

A good New Year to all.

I wrote a few notes on CanDo's gearbox indigestion to read when i got back. Thought I might share them since is fairly quiet around here at present.

Things to remember about LT95 Gearboxes after pulling my 101 and a spare RR one apart.
1. You can pull one out of a 101 in less than 2 hours by yourself.
2. Both boxes showed signs of moisture ingress e.g. slight surface rust on some gear parts. Possibly from sitting for longer periods unused, not a big issue.
3. With lack of or low gear box oil, damage will occur rapidly.
4. Tighten the oil pump cover correctly and use sealant on the gaskets. This is why the oil drained from mine.
5. Do not use heavier oil than SAE 30 or equivalent in the gearbox as it could shear the original Bakelite oil pump shaft especially in colder weather.
6. Replace the oil pump gears and shaft with the metal after market ones.
7. Oil leaking into the transfer case can be from a worn gearbox main-shaft rear oil seal. It is also highly likely a faulty o-ring on the reverse shaft could cause this. If so leakage could occur even when not in use, especially if left standing for long periods. The reverse shaft o-ring could be changed in car fairly easily.
8. When fitting an OD the OD drive cog should be fitted using the instruction for fitting the standard main-shaft transfer gear (end float - 2 thou max).
9. The spare RR box had a lot of grunge in it, the 101 one also had much lesser signs of similar contamination. This grunge had blocked the intermediate shaft oil-ways and the RR intermediate shaft was well on its way to disintegration. See Pics below.
10. The intermediate shaft lubrication is mostly by gravity. The oil baffle attached to the top transfer box cover catches the oil and drains it down two ‘V’ cutouts in the casing and these feed down to the two larger holes in the intermediate shaft. Four smaller holes in the intermediate shaft output the oil to the thrust washers.
11. The intermediate shaft could be checked for blockages or even cleaned in-car by pulling off the transfer box top cover and then removing the centre grub screw in the external end of the intermediate shaft. I would use carby cleaner spray initially and then syringes.
12. The intermediate shaft has four x 3 mm thrust washers. This standard setup does not let Hi and Low range gears to engage 100%. Use the after market 3.3, 2.7, 2, 4 mm ones (front to rear) (available from Anthony) to set this up correctly.
13. Both centre diff pre-loads were not as per specifications. Bad workmanship in the 101 and possibly wear in the RR.
14. Worst sign of ‘fair wear and tear’ in the original 101 box was on the front output shaft (spline that fits into the centre diff). Possibly from the front shaft vibration problems??
15. Look after your LT95 so you do not have to learn this stuff.
16. Ron, don’t forget to polish the brassware drain plugs.

Now I just have to get it back together:confused:

Cheers,

Peter

[https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/538.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/539.jpg

[101RRS]

7. Oil leaking into the transfer case can be from a worn gearbox main-shaft rear oil seal. It is also highly likely a faulty o-ring on the reverse shaft could cause this. If so leakage could occur even when not in use, especially if left standing for long periods. The reverse shaft o-ring could be changed in car fairly easily.


I thought the normal oil level in the transfer case is higher than the gearbox so I thought the oil flows into the gearbox not the other way round.

Is this not the case?

Garry

[PeterP]

I thought the normal oil level in the transfer case is higher than the gearbox so I thought the oil flows into the gearbox not the other way round.

Garry,

Not really sure, it was more an assumption, I shouldn't do that.:oops2: The RR gearbox was definitely over full so it may be that way.
I had a mod explained to me to overcome the problem where you drill and tap the respective drain plugs and connect a balance pipe, sounded feasible.

Peter

[101RRS]

When designing the LT95 the obvious idea would have been to design it so that the gearbox and tfr case use the same oil with a small balance hole between the two - too easy.

Did you find a dip stick on either of your gearboxes. The 101 parts book describes a dip stick and the 101 club has them in their parts list but I do not have one in either my 101 LT95 or the stage 1 LT95.

Garry

[Dave Jump]

Hi Gary

The dip stick goes in the same hole as the reverse light switch on the top of the gearbox. 101's didn't have reversing lights but I'm guessing the Australian army fitted them as most of the ex Australian ones I've seen have the same type fitted.

Cheers
Dave

[Blknight.aus]

the reason for all your heart ache has been the snapped shaft on the oil pump.

the military boxes now have a metal one in them

the wrong oil takes them out quickly but occasionally they just let go.

[Mick_Marsh]

I had a mod explained to me to overcome the problem where you drill and tap the respective drain plugs and connect a balance pipe, sounded feasible.
Peter,
I have had the balance pipe installed on my SIII Stage 1. It was installed because the seal on the shaft between the transfer case and gearbox was allowing oil to transfer from the transfer case to the gearbox (apparently a common fault). I was forever draining the gearbox and topping up the transfer case. Well, the balance pipe worked.
The way it was done on mine was the level plugs were replaced with plugs with nipples and connected with a rubber pipe. I'll post photo's at a more reasonable hour if requested.

regards
Mick

[PeterP]

Did you find a dip stick on either of your gearboxes.

Garry, they are not fitted but this is where it would go. About 10 mm of alloy to drill through.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/01/338.jpg

Mick, glad to hear oil balance works well, some pics would be appreciated.

Blknight, the metal oil pump gears and shaft are the go, was told they only sell these ones now. Have a set ready to fit when I get that far, about $60.

Peter

[Mick_Marsh]

This is the gearbox connection as viewed from below
21956file:///tmp/moz-screenshot.jpg This is the transfer case connection as viewed from below

21957
As you can see, the balance tube connects the level plugs. This modification was performed as a workaround. The seal around the shaft is wearing out and allows oil to feed from the transfer case to the gearbox as the shaft rotates. Rather than pull the gearbox apart to replace a seal, the balance tube was installed to allow the oil to drain from the gearbox back to the transfer case. I was advised not to leave the vehicle parked on hills overnight.

file:///home/LUser/Desktop/gearbox.jpg

[PeterP]

The gearbox is nearly together so I've been researching oil. I know the "kill the oil pump shaft" story as I have seen it. I an tending towards quality engine oil as recommended - 20W50.


101Ron's info on 101 oils
Engine castrol GP50 20/50
Gearbox castrol VMX 80.....I highly recommend this for the gearbox as it makes for better gear shifting.
Transfercase GP50 or 60 engine oil.
Diffs castrol BP140, EPX 85-140.
Any engine oil suitable for older hard working V8s is OK as a engine oil

The specs on VWX80 look Ok, I was wondering what others were actually using in their boxes?


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1121.jpg
Cheers,
Peter

[Lotz-A-Landies]

ATF is an excellent option for the LT95.

[101 Ron]

Peter
Before you refit the gearbox............take a look at the overdrive with the view of stopping oil leaks.
They leak from between the lay shaft and alloy housing.
Also from the gear shift shaft.
I ended up making a alloy plate over the layshaft and bolting it on with small fine thread bolts.......I have a post on it some where.
The gear shift shaft needs a O ring groove machined into the housing to stop the oil creeping back out.....or another plate or plug over it.
The overdrives do leak so now may be the time to see if you can improve things a bit.
Trust me the VMX 80 works well in the main gear bag......gear shifting is improved over engine oil with no other side effects.

[101 Ron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/fcs-military-variations/84095-progress-report.html