Think about rollover protection...

[justinc]

This is a good example of the almost total lack of ROP a Defender has. Discos and RRC aren't much better.

Vehicle Detail - Pickles Auctions Australia (http://www.pickles.com.au/damaged/vehicle/CP-06-96-Land-Rover-Defender-Wagon-5-Seats-4-Doors/itemid-1-552076633/lotid-0)

Please drive carefully everybody:(


JC

[Psimpson7]

They never look good do they after going over......:o

In all honesty I really think a roll bar or at the very least a decent cargo barrier type thing is almost essential in Defenders.

[Rangier Rover]

My greatest fear of the Rovers and similar:( I often worry about the safety of my wife and kids with the old Rangie.
Another reason I need to update our family drive.

[justinc]

My greatest fear of the Rovers and similar:( I often worry about the safety of my wife and kids with the old Rangie.
Another reason I need to update our family drive.

After deciding to keep the RR, It is getting a cage in the new year. An internal one, built locally. I know these things can be expensive, but really they aren't when you see pics like that.

One of my customers and his wife would have been killed had their 130 DC not had an exo cage, fitted by the previous owner. A sobering sight I can tell you when the wreck turned up on a flat tray at work:(

JC

[justinc]

They never look good do they after going over......:o

In all honesty I really think a roll bar or at the very least a decent cargo barrier type thing is almost essential in Defenders.

True Pete, I took your advice about shopping around etc, decided to go with a locally constructed cage made by a fellow who builds rally car cages.

JC

[dmdigital]

It's not just Land Rovers! Patrols, Land Cruisers, Prados etc all suffer the same fait in a roll-over. Guy at work rolled a 2009 Prado and the results were not pretty. D3, D4 new RR's and I would hope the new Prado and 200 series are improvements on this.

Me, I've put a D1 on its roof and the cargo barrier saved our lives. Should almost be compulsory fit.

[Psimpson7]

Don't think it gets much worse than Defender's though. That cast alloy windscreen frame is the main culprit and they seem to get worse every year....

If we get another one, a cage will be fitted as a matter of priority.

Would like to see some pics of the cage Justin when you get it done.

Rest of it looks great so far.

Rgds
Pete

[Rangier Rover]

I really wonder how some of these new things comply with crash regulations. They only seem to worry about the front and side impact if it happens. :(

I'm going to fit a cargo barrier in my old Rangie at a minimum.

[dmdigital]

Don't think it gets much worse than Defender's though. That cast alloy windscreen frame is the main culprit and they seem to get worse every year....
I'd put them on par with a 70+ series Land Cruiser in a roll over. Neither is very pretty afterwards.

[RichardK]

As I understand it the D3's have a high tensile reinforcement across the front windscreen, and I am led to believe across the roof at another point or points and are very strong in the event of a rollover.
When the Safari snorkel is installed (I did my own) a cobalt tipped drill needs to be used to drill the fixing holes in the upper A pillar

[Didge]

Hi guys, I've only had a 95 Def since august this year. Is it going to be that easy to rollover considering how slow they are on road and using a modicum of common sense off road. Like if I'm doing a bit of normal off roading knowing I don't have any budget in reserve for repairs I'm likely to avoid extreme situations. I know they're narrow, etc but is it a common occurrence? cheers gerald

[defend]

The defenders and all coil sprung versions can and do roll even at slow speed.
So don't think that just because you are only driving at 15kph,that if you have to turn the steering wheel hard in one direction to miss an object on a track or road,that you Defender will stay upright then be warned that sometimes you will find your vehicle sitting on its roof,much to your amazement.:o
Why would i tell you this,because i have been in a defender that did just this,it completely rolled at low speed and ended up sitting on its roof.
A real low speed rollover does not usually crush the roof.
The latest Defenders and the Td5s are the worst offenders.

[Vern]

Hi guys, I've only had a 95 Def since august this year. Is it going to be that easy to rollover considering how slow they are on road and using a modicum of common sense off road. Like if I'm doing a bit of normal off roading knowing I don't have any budget in reserve for repairs I'm likely to avoid extreme situations. I know they're narrow, etc but is it a common occurrence? cheers geraldtheres a member on here that rolleds his at 40kph:(

[Disco44]

This is a good example of the almost total lack of ROP a Defender has. Discos and RRC aren't much better.

Vehicle Detail - Pickles Auctions Australia (http://www.pickles.com.au/damaged/vehicle/CP-06-96-Land-Rover-Defender-Wagon-5-Seats-4-Doors/itemid-1-552076633/lotid-0)

Please drive carefully everybody:(
JC
As rollovers go that one is not too bad.As a retired Road Accident Firie,that roof looks to me to have been removed using the jaws of life.Also the busted steering wheel appears to have been caused by the driver not wearing seat belts and wore it.
John ( disco 44 )

[Psimpson7]

IMO they arent unstable really no, its just if they do go over they dont tend to stand up too well.

[JamesH]

Oh dear. I have thought about a cargo barrier many times but I'm so tight and I don't really like the idea of looking through the grill in the rearview mirror.

But since I carry a spare wheel and Engel loose in the back, that would make me a bit silly to keep thinking and not acting wouldn't it?

Can you still get Milfords for 300tdi Defenders, I spose you can.

[D3Jon]

As rollovers go that one is not too bad.As a retired Road Accident Firie,that roof looks to me to have been removed using the jaws of life.Also the busted steering wheel appears to have been caused by the driver not wearing seat belts and wore it.
John ( disco 44 )

I thought the same thing - that the roofs been cut off. Excluding the windscreen frame which is bent backwards the roof pillars all look like they stood up fairly well, particularly the B pillar judging by the way the cars landed.

Not a lot left to salvage on that one though, maybe engine & box?

Jon

[F4Phantom]

I called up off the back of this post to see the price of a roll bar in the rear of the RRC. I have learned so far

1. if its in the passenger area the seats cant carry passengers
2. in the rear load area its ok
3. external cages are weaker because they have no cross bracing and they are hard to fit.

So a bar in the rear into the wheel arches, and pobssibly welding in some hard points is the way to go. It will be roughly 450mpa mild steel with high plastic deformation, but not sure about elastic tho.

Costs range between $1100 to 2k fitted.

I would like to know if anyone has some more experiance in this area or has one fitted.

The front of the car will crush on an angle from the bonnet area to the bar, the kids would be much safer. Bar would get padded.

[Psimpson7]

Ive got a full internal/external cage.

6pt chassis mounted. Had to be engineered.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/110.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/111.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/04/112.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/388.jpg

I love it!

i agree that a full external with no diagnols is no where near as good as an internal with diagnols, but it means that it doesnt need to be engineered as people class them as ladder racks.

Some states wont allow a 6 point cage legally. Qld are one of the only ones that do.

It took for ever for me to fit it!

[V8Ian]

I thought the same thing - that the roofs been cut off. Excluding the windscreen frame which is bent backwards the roof pillars all look like they stood up fairly well, particularly the B pillar judging by the way the cars landed.

Not a lot left to salvage on that one though, maybe engine & box?

Jon
You would need to consider how long the engine ran upside down, without oil.

[PAT303]

BHP had injuries increase after roll bars were fitted as people's legs/knee's/heads hit the bars in frontal impacts and increased rescue time as they made it harder to get people out of wrecks.There is no such thing as a free lunch. Pat

[rmp]

When I was on a Land Rover convoy with D3s, FL2s and Defenders the medical officer said "if you roll in the Discovery or Freelander you'll live".

He did not mention the Defender.

[Psimpson7]

BHP had injuries increase after roll bars were fitted as people's legs/knee's/heads hit the bars in frontal impacts and increased rescue time as they made it harder to get people out of wrecks.There is no such thing as a free lunch. Pat

I'd take my chances with the cage tbh.

[George130]

Hi guys, I've only had a 95 Def since august this year. Is it going to be that easy to rollover considering how slow they are on road and using a modicum of common sense off road. Like if I'm doing a bit of normal off roading knowing I don't have any budget in reserve for repairs I'm likely to avoid extreme situations. I know they're narrow, etc but is it a common occurrence? cheers gerald

Only seen one rollover. It was a classic rangie. The cargo barrier held the wreck together quite well.
Seen a few picks of Defenders that have rolled and they don't look good at all afterwards.

[PAT303]

I'd rather not crash or roll,my bar is behind the rear seat so no one comes in contact with it. Pat

[Jock The Rock]

I have to agree that while they are nowhere near as good as a roll cage, a decent cargo barrier does help.

Here's the result of mine rolling at about 70 and bouncing on the roof. No catastrophic damage. No injuries

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/115.jpg

I think the roof rack also helped to spread the load, as well as the spare tyre on the roof.

The amount of stuff that bounced around in tha back was amazing and even more amazing is where things end up. I had an adaptor for use on a high lift jack in a box in the back, probably weighing about 1.5kg. It ended up lying in the grass 2-3 metres away from where the Landy ended up, and that was after it had punched its way through a side window

One of the first things I swapped over to the new Landy was the cargo barrier

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/178.jpg

Food for thought (and your wallet), just think of all the things you store in the back; and of your kids/loved ones who are sitting in the back seat closest to it

[samuelclarke]

Good topic Justin - and another good reminder...

I'm planing on installing an external roll cage on my Defender next year. Having seen many photos of Defenders rolled and also witnessing a Hilux and Maverick roll offroad (neither of them faired too well either) it's cheap life insurance if you ask me.

[jbell110]

when I made my county into a dual cab I realized that there isnt much
holding the roof up. If I had another it would have a min. of a roll bar..

Jeff

[justinc]

The subject of ROP has surfaced recently with us as I have decided to keep my RRC, and having seen a few that have had roll overs etc, when the family and I are going to be touring long distance, the chance of encountering fatigue and bad/ unfamiliar roads is magnified many times. IMHO it is the same as selecting a decent helmet, it is designed to save your life.

Have also found a set of 'new' Stratos suspension seats for the front, even a similar colour too:). LSST3000 series with armrests and pneumatic lumbar support adjustment. Bargain;). Will help my skeletal system over those long hours and offroad jolting as they are supposed to absorb up to 60% of impact forces:)

I'll try and post up pics when the cage gets nearer, also have to remove the hood lining and weld A pillars first.

JC

[F4Phantom]

The subject of ROP has surfaced recently with us as I have decided to keep my RRC, and having seen a few that have had roll overs etc, when the family and I are going to be touring long distance, the chance of encountering fatigue and bad/ unfamiliar roads is magnified many times. IMHO it is the same as selecting a decent helmet, it is designed to save your life.

Have also found a set of 'new' Stratos suspension seats for the front, even a similar colour too:). LSST3000 series with armrests and pneumatic lumbar support adjustment. Bargain;). Will help my skeletal system over those long hours and offroad jolting as they are supposed to absorb up to 60% of impact forces:)

I'll try and post up pics when the cage gets nearer, also have to remove the hood lining and weld A pillars first.

JC


from what I was told today this is a problem with vic roads as they dont like ROP in road cars. Thats why the easiest way is to get a rear cargo bay area one behind the rear seats where it does not effect the seating.

[justinc]

from what I was told today this is a problem with vic roads as they dont like ROP in road cars. Thats why the easiest way is to get a rear cargo bay area one behind the rear seats where it does not effect the seating.

Yes I have yet to get a ruling on just how much of a cage I am 'allowed' to have, BUT it will be as safe as it has to be, not fussed about compromise for the sake of regulations. Obviously common sense will prevail, IE no vision obstruction etc then I'll go ahead regardless.

JC

[Disco44]

I thought the same thing - that the roofs been cut off. Excluding the windscreen frame which is bent backwards the roof pillars all look like they stood up fairly well, particularly the B pillar judging by the way the cars landed.

Not a lot left to salvage on that one though, maybe engine & box?

Jon

When you cut you only cut as much as need be to affect the extrication,hence the windscreen being bent.The reason for doing as few as possible cuts is that the more cuts the more jagged edges and the more injuries..like lacerations to rescue and medical personell.
John ( disco 44 )

[F4Phantom]

Yes I have yet to get a ruling on just how much of a cage I am 'allowed' to have, BUT it will be as safe as it has to be, not fussed about compromise for the sake of regulations. Obviously common sense will prevail, IE no vision obstruction etc then I'll go ahead regardless.

JC

I probably didnt explain it well but according to these guys if you put any cage into for example the rear seats you need to re-register the vehicle as a two seater. I understand what you mean but if you crash without a RW vehicle you will not be insured. I am thinking of another idea for my RRC, as I plan to tour as well with kids. That is run a tube from the front of the car over the roof up the A pillar, then run it over the roof and through the roof onto the rear chage inside the vehicle. I will also use the A pillar tube as a snorkel if I can. This should get around the rules and be safe. It may also give me a roof rack.

The RRC here is something like I imagine is legal
Protection & Performance - Roll Cage Manufacturers - Kit Bent Hoops (http://www.ppcages.com/index.php?Rollcage=benthoops)

and this is excellent, probably not needed in that vehicle but close to what you are talking about..

Roll Cage Image Gallery > Discovery 3 with full internal roll cage (http://www.ppcages.com/displayimg.php?url=pages/gallery/landrover/main/033.jpg)

Roll Cage Image Gallery > Discovery 3 with full internal roll cage (http://www.ppcages.com/displayimg.php?url=pages/gallery/landrover/main/034.jpg)

[justinc]

I probably didnt explain it well but according to these guys if you put any cage into for example the rear seats you need to re-register the vehicle as a two seater. I understand what you mean but if you crash without a RW vehicle you will not be insured. I am thinking of another idea for my RRC, as I plan to tour as well with kids. That is run a tube from the front of the car over the roof up the A pillar, then run it over the roof and through the roof onto the rear chage inside the vehicle. I will also use the A pillar tube as a snorkel if I can. This should get around the rules and be safe. It may also give me a roof rack.

The RRC here is something like I imagine is legal
Protection & Performance - Roll Cage Manufacturers - Kit Bent Hoops (http://www.ppcages.com/index.php?Rollcage=benthoops)

and this is excellent, probably not needed in that vehicle but close to what you are talking about..

Roll Cage Image Gallery > Discovery 3 with full internal roll cage (http://www.ppcages.com/displayimg.php?url=pages/gallery/landrover/main/033.jpg)

Roll Cage Image Gallery > Discovery 3 with full internal roll cage (http://www.ppcages.com/displayimg.php?url=pages/gallery/landrover/main/034.jpg)

Thanks for that, I think it was psimpson that sent me this site link also a little while ago when I was thinking of a Defender. I will take some of these pics to the manufacturer when he quotes on the Rangie cage, along with the local regs.

Thanks again:)

JC

[Davo]

Here : Welcome to the Asscociation of Land Rover Clubs (http://www.alrc.co.uk/) look at "Regulations" and there's an excellent section on rollbars. They've been dealing with that sort of thing for many, many years and the designs are apparently well-proven.

There used a be report online that I can't find now to do with a problem with the then-new Perenties rolling over. It seems that it wasn't such a problem with the leaf-sprung fleet. Probably something to do with those funny curly springs you guys seem to like! :p

I'm going to build something for my Landie, though I've still got to work out what pipe to use. I'm in the middle of nowhere so I don't have the resources I would in a big city for engineering and so on.

[rmp]

Re insurance. The insurance will only not pay up if your modification has caused the accident, or made it worse, and you've not told them about the mod.

For example, if you have an 6" lift and 37" tyres, and roll it around a corner...pretty easy to demonstrate the risk was increased with the extra height. But if the same car was hail-damaged or rear-ended they'd pay as neither of those have anything to do with the mod, but only based on what you've told them (ie, wouldn't give you 37s if you had insured 31" road tyres).

So re rollcages, if it's made the problem worse or caused it then you have an issue. If not, it's ok.

A seperate question is whether it is roadworthy, which has legal implications. Possible to be done for that and still be insured, and vice-versa. The insurance company does have a get-out about not complying with roadworthy, but take them to the obudsman over that and they'll need to prove it a) increased their risk and b) didn't know about it.

[Cap]

Heres some pics I found on the net, internal and external type cages

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/140.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/141.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/142.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/143.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/144.jpg

http://www.aulro.com/app/data/500/083.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/11/145.jpg

[Didge]

Vern and defend, thanks for the replies. I'm sorry but I missed the email notification saying you'd commented. Yeah, I've been thinking about it since and have seen a few low speed fall overs at least, but not full rollovers. Have seen how it can easily happen. take care
cheers Gerald

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The above pics look pretty,,
not sure how good it would work though,,
any sort of sideways force and it just pushes over,,

and some serious info,,


Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS)
Minimum yield strength 350 MAP
Non-homologated* roll cages
Used internationally in motorsport competition
Difficult to obtain
USA best quality
European has a rough skin texture
Cold Drawn Welded (CDW)
Hi-tensile, minimum yield strength 420 MAP
Recommended for amateur motor racing
For non-international and non-homologated cars
Used in CAMS approved competitions
No local products
More easily obtained
Imported from USA, Japan best quality
European darker skin
Cro-Molly
Minimum yield strength 650MPA plus
Requires engineer-certified homologation
Preferably TIG-welded
Used internationally and locally
More expensive product
For light-weight roll-over protection at a high level of competition
Not recommended for amateur racers on a tight budget

[Pedro_The_Swift]

as simple as this JC,,,

welded, 4 point.
bulletproof.

http://www.rollcage.com.au/images/vess2.jpg

[BigJon]

What car is that Pedro?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Its a VE SS.

[BigJon]

I thought it might be. The roofline goes so low and sweeping in the rear it almost looks like a hatchback!

[Sprint]

wtf is the guy in the VE SS doing?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

my guess would be some form of CAMS approved motorsport,
The pic comes from a CAMS approved roll cage manufacturer.